The Primary Lesson To Be Learned From This Fiasco

[Meraxos]

I believe that the primary lesson to be learned from this ongoing fiasco is that the classic MMO model is no longer viable.

 

By the classic MMO model I'm talking about a long, slow leveling process followed by a secondary long, slow process of progressing through endgame content by constantly striving to make incremental improvements to your gear and working hard on your rotation and knowledge of your class, all done while you struggle through group content of ever increasing difficulty and working away at various required grinds.

 

This is the model that SWTOR was built upon. With the addition of the cut-scenes and voiced dialog to provide a more compelling leveling process.

 

But we are seeing, both here and in other MMOs, that a smaller and smaller number of players want to go through all of this. I, for one, used to but don't any longer. Look at Wildstar. It was premised on a "return to MMO hardcore" model yet it's revenue dropped 90% in the first year as players decided they didn't want the struggle and grind. After SWTOR's original release the population plummeted as players decided they liked the stories but not enough to endure the grind.

 

In short, there aren't enough players who still want the old MMO model to sustain an MMO's cost structure.

 

So what is Bioware to do? An MMO with a vastly bigger budget, like WoW, can simply create content for both casual and hardcore players. But Bioware can't afford that. So they are trying to find some happy middle ground which will keep both casuals and hardcores moderately happy. What we are seeing here is that this is fundamentally impossible which doesn't bode well for the future of SWTOR at all.

[Neglience]

Have you actually played a game that needed grind?

 

In SWTOR everything was and still is pretty fast to achieve. I would say it is the easiest game i have played so far (skill and time wise).

 

If BW should take a lesson out of this it should be not to release OP stuff and then nerf it. They should release UP stuff and then buff it if needed.

 

That was the problem with slotmachines and that is the problem with OP companions.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Neglience

[SamAnders]

Or that actually testing things and not making massive changes in one patch with no real warning is a bad idea?

[Cylluz]

If BW should take a lesson out of this it should be not to release OP stuff and then nerf it. They should release UP stuff and then buff it if needed.

 

Or that actually testing things and not making massive changes in one patch with no real warning is a bad idea?

 

Doing both of these things would save Bioware a lot of hassle... they just refuse to do it. (and keep refusing.)

[monsterfurby]

Or that actually testing things and not making massive changes in one patch with no real warning is a bad idea?

 

Pretty much. The way WoW handles things like these is making small incremental changes over time, from what I have heard. That seems... like a sensible way to approach something like this, to be honest.

[Jackosaur]

Pretty much. The way WoW handles things like these is making small incremental changes over time, from what I have heard. That seems... like a sensible way to approach something like this, to be honest.

 

As a long time Wow player this gave me a really good laugh.

[monsterfurby]

As a long time Wow player this gave me a really good laugh.

 

I can only repeat what I hear from WoW players I know. They may of course be overselling Blizzard a bit

[LydMekk]

Level sync and bolster in PVE has made the gear grind totally useless unless you are going into HM Ops.

[Jackosaur]

I can only repeat what I hear from WoW players I know. They may of course be overselling Blizzard a bit

 

They have screwed up just as many times as BW and continue to do so, their forums at one time or another have seen the same ranting hyperbolic nonsense that plagues these boards more times than can be counted.

 

Such is the nature of MMOs and their player bases.

[monsterfurby]

They have screwed up just as many times as BW and continue to do so, their forums at one time or another have seen the same ranting hyperbolic nonsense that plagues these boards more times than can be counted.

 

Such is the nature of MMOs and their player bases.

 

I stand corrected then. Farewell, oh imaginary land of milk, honey and Orcs.

[JouerTue]

Level sync and bolster in PVE has made the gear grind totally useless unless you are going into HM Ops.

 

hm ops beside a good half of them which you can run in 3.0 gear

[Lord_Sleepy]

As a long time Wow player this gave me a really good laugh.

 

Haven't played it in a while, but it had seemed like they use to play "whack-a-mole" with the nerf hammer, toast one let the others go up a little then hit the next (except for paladins)

 

Just what I remember from it.

[Kolbeinn]

They have screwed up just as many times as BW and continue to do so, their forums at one time or another have seen the same ranting hyperbolic nonsense that plagues these boards more times than can be counted.

 

Such is the nature of MMOs and their player bases.

 

You have no idea how good it felt watching all the fanboys shut up earlier this spring when the first quarter sub numbers were released and they showed a net loss of 3 million subs. All the same arrogant bastards who claimed people not liking the expansion were crybabies, filthy casuals, whatever you want, some going even as far as saying we were shills for competing MMOs.

 

Hahahahha. Goddamn that felt good.

[jakeobione]

You have no idea how good it felt watching all the fanboys shut up earlier this spring when the first quarter sub numbers were released and they showed a net loss of 3 million subs. All the same arrogant bastards who claimed people not liking the expansion were crybabies, filthy casuals, whatever you want, some going even as far as saying we were shills for competing MMOs.

 

Hahahahha. gosh darn that felt good.

 

Wow losing that many people including myself and my guild, probably had more to do with the Expansion was bare bones, and it was centered around Garrisons that are frankly, boring.

 

Balance wasn't an issue, it wasn't an issue because the expansion, lacked any meaningful content. For the most part, Wow gets Balance right, they make small adjustments now as opposed to say, Wrath of the lich King/ Cata Balance (huge swings)

Edited November 20, 2015 by jakeobione

[Ghisallo]

To the OP your entire idea seems to, in part, be founded in justifying what was really unjustifiable rage. Annoyance and disappointment yet but yeah...

 

The expac is now little different, if at all, as the game before. Many/if not most of the posts I saw were of existing players. So if they were hear last year why the sea change? Answer there was none.

 

The lesson to learn is to not release something broken they way this was. If the companions were launched the way they are today these people would have complained about the grind, some players would have left, but most would have sucked it up and kept on playing the same as they had been. New player retention may not have been as high because MMOs are an acquired taste but still.

 

It's human nature to get pissy when something you really like is taken away from you. Sometimes it's justified because it was legitimately yours. IRL if it's not legitimately yours peer pressure makes you suck it up when its "corrected" and taken away. The problem is in a video game, in an anonymous environment, that peer pressure doesn't exist so you can ignore it should never have been yours in the first place and rage.

 

Unless of course you say Eric is lying?

[monsterfurby]

The lesson to learn is to not release something broken they way this was. If the companions were launched the way they are today these people would have complained about the grind, some players would have left, but most would have sucked it up and kept on playing the same as they had been. New player retention may not have been as high because MMOs are an acquired taste but still.

 

If companions had been set to the power level they are at now, many people - myself included - would not have returned in the first place.

 

Yes, companions were OP, but now they're UP. There's a point somewhere in the middle, and it's up to Bioware to find that point, simple as that.

[Fallensouls]

LOL you never played Final fantasy or the best pvp game of all time Lineage 2 then , those were grind fests this game is nothing. Try archage if you really want to see a grind Asians seem to love to make those type of games. Edited November 20, 2015 by Fallensouls

[monsterfurby]

LOL you never played Final fantasy or the best pvp game of all time Lineage 2 then , those were grind fests this game is nothing. Try archage if you really want to see a grind Asians seem to love to make those type of games.

 

"Others are worse" is not, and has never been, a high-quality argument.

[Mahrdol]

"Others are worse" is not, and has never been, a high-quality argument.

 

I have to agree with that. I have done plenty of grind and Questing. 26 hours straight grinding hate in eq. Staring at a spell book to regen mana for 2-3 minutes. When you die you lose couple hours worth of leveling.

 

This game is nothing. I've done a billion amount of quests so that in the end every MMO I played all the quests felt the same so I ended up only playing for a few months. Star wars got me back after couple years hiatus because of the Complete VO on quests. It made questing bearable again.

 

Before the patch I had non stop fighting action. Fighting straight through it was fun. Its not that the heroics are that much harder now it just that after every fight I have to regen for 15 secs. So I fight for 30 secs and regen for 15. It get tedious. I am past that stage in my MMO life. I have been there done that too much to keep doing over and over. I have been playing SWTOR since beta. SO I know how to play and companion nerf is not a difficulty challenge for me like some others.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Mahrdol

[Meraxos]

Yes, companions were OP, but now they're UP. There's a point somewhere in the middle, and it's up to Bioware to find that point, simple as that.

I think 4.0 companions were about right for the more casual half of the player base.

 

4.0.2 companions are probably about right for the more serious or invested half of the player base.

 

I doubt there is any place in the middle that will please more than half of all players because there is a fundamental difference in perspective between the two groups.

[MaximusRex]

Pretty much. The way WoW handles things like these is making small incremental changes over time, from what I have heard. That seems... like a sensible way to approach something like this, to be honest.

 

The players on WoW, and every other MMO if we are going to be honest, think the devs don't communicate enough, and post the same complaints of incompetent devs that use sledgehammers to balance, because they wouldn't know what balance was if it bit them on the butt.

 

Really, MMO forums are just giant meme factories, except that the people posting the memes don't know that they are just spamming the same stupid meme over and over and over, and instead they think they are original, clever, and making some point or revealing some truth.

[Magnouss]

I have to agree with that. I have done plenty of grind and Questing. 26 hours straight grinding hate in eq. Staring at a spell book to regen mana for 2-3 minutes. When you die you lose couple hours worth of leveling.

 

This game is nothing. I've done a billion amount of quests so that in the end every MMO I played all the quests felt the same so I ended up only playing for a few months. Star wars got me back after couple years hiatus because of the Complete VO on quests. It made questing bearable again.

 

Before the patch I had non stop fighting action. Fighting straight through it was fun. Its not that the heroics are that much harder now it just that after every fight I have to regen for 15 secs. So I fight for 30 secs and regen for 15. It get tedious. I am past that stage in my MMO life. I have been there done that too much to keep doing over and over. I have been playing SWTOR since beta. SO I know how to play and companion nerf is not a difficulty challenge for me like some others.

 

Pretty much my sentiments as well. The non-stop fighting made my character feel like a Jedi. Having to regen between fights is not interesting gameplay and a major contributing factor to why I lost interest in this game quickly when it first came out. It's also why I chose Biochem on the majority of my characters later on. I would use the reusable medpacs between fights to shorten down time. I've had some problems post nerf where my companion isn't healing me at all post fight. I haven't studied this in detail yet so I am not sure exactly what is happening here.

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

The expac is now little different, if at all, as the game before. Many/if not most of the posts I saw were of existing players. So if they were hear last year why the sea change? Answer there was none.

 

This is incorrect. In 3.0 we could have geared companions up ourselves at which point they could have similar stats to our own, especially for tertiary stats. This is no longer the case, take a look:

 

http://i.imgur.com/dqt55hG.png

 

From what I've seen, those tertiary stat values don't change regardless of your influence level so regardless of if you're at influence 1 or 50, your companions will have roughly 500-600 less tertiary stats than a player in basic 208 gear and just over half the power. Sure, influence adds HP and buffs damage/heals but that doesn't make up for the tertiary stats that simply aren't accounted for.

 

What should have been nerfed is the effect presence has on companion power and HP, that's what needed to be addressed. It seems they addressed the HP portion of that but went in the opposite direction for healing/damage, in an extreme way, which not only compounds the tertiary stat problem already mentioned but it severely hurts newcomers to the game. Players that don't have enough presence from Legacy to effectively have a rank 10 companion right off the bat, players that don't have the benefit of multiple level 65 characters to run dailies with for comms and credits in order to buy the companion gifts needed to gain influence with those companions.

 

When they get those companions, what do they get? They get a companion who has less tertiary stats and power than they could have had in the most basic endgame gear, with significantly reduced healing/damage abilities with the compensation meant to come from influence/presence which they don't have yet, and the best ways to get that influence/presence is to either run a bunch of heroics at cap for the alliance boxes which means grinding out tedious missions with an underpowered companion or you can go run dailies for common data crystals which means grinding out tedious missions with an underpowered companion or you can go run through the story and do all of the companion missions which is going to take time.

 

There is a big difference between now and 3.0 as far as companion power is concerned. I really don't think it's even a question, the game is most certainly not the same as before or even close. The trade off in power here was supposed to be worth giving up control over their stats but it's not. It needed toned down from where it was when 4.0 dropped, I agree with that, but it didn't need to be nuked from orbit and it didn't need to be done in such a way that the people whose experience should have been considered and preserved, newer players that they're trying to hook and get to stick around, would be the one trashed the most. They need to fix it and soon or it'll be too late and those players will already be gone and despite what I've seen said around the forums? That is a bad thing.

[Fardarter]

Or that actually testing things and not making massive changes in one patch with no real warning is a bad idea?

 

So true

 

The companion change was FRIGGIN MASSIVE to how the game plays for most players. The fact that BW either didn't know this or just did it anyway is why I cancelled my sub. I can type until my fingers fall off on these forums but Musco's boss is gonna see the subscription figures. You wanna be heard, speak with your wallet.

[Makillda]

Wow losing that many people including myself and my guild, probably had more to do with the Expansion was bare bones, and it was centered around Garrisons that are frankly, boring.

This is why I left. Garrisons suck.