Lhancelot Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 My thought on this is, the devs need to play their own game. Play it BW! Then tell us how the metrics of the merc healer, especially in 4v4 is closely performing as well as a sorc or even a scoundrel healer. I would put some money (actually I am putting money on this game monthly) that NO DEV who actually played these healing classes would say actual gaming reality matches whatever "metrics" they are comparing that indicate the healers are all performing similarly! Either buff the healing mercs shield machanics more so they can use energy shield more often, or make kolto overload actually heal-to-full like what a sorc can do while being IMPERVIOUS IN A BUBBLE. *Utterly ridiculous* Other changes could be to make some of the utilities better, for instance the utility that reduces the cooldown on energy shield for healing merc atm isn't really effective enough, the reduction would be better if it was 5 secs per hit, maybe even more seconds taken off per hit seeing they constantly get leaped to, jumped on and pulverized by mass melee now (and PTs). If they want the merc to be a moving punching bag for melee and PTs, then buff their mechanics so they can take more of the damage and focus. Give them some ADDED damage reduction if no kind of disengage from combat can be granted! The healing merc needs SOMETHING to help deal with focus better, for ranked PVP! As it stands, when 2-4 dps jump on the merc the merc healer gets totally shut down. This has been the case for the last 2+ years... While the other two healers have ways to manage the focus by dropping aggro with bubbles or out of combat stealth and teleports. Teleports! ROFL. What does the merc get? Oh, a useless 20m backward leap which then has a utility point needed to even make it SEMI-USEFUL. But wait... This utility point for the propulsion ability is never taken! Why? Because the merc healer NEEDS other more effective utilities to survive focus from the master tier utilities! Fix this ****. Please. Bring sorc/sage healers back in line. Either reduce their healing output, or take away some of their survivability. In no way should they be healing for 20-30% more on average than the other two healers, and that's what is going on. I can't even play my healing sage because it's so mindnumbingly easy and unchallenging. Is this by design I wonder? Is the idea to create some classes that are marginally easier to play for people who maybe aren't as "skilled", or who need a beginners class to begin on? If so, then at least make the more difficult healing classes have a higher ceiling of performance then. I should not have to work 2 times as hard on my healing merc, only to heal for 25% less overall healing output than I do on my sage! Total BS here. *Regarding the scoundrel healer, I am not as experienced on the class particularly in ranked. I can say that from doing regs mostly on my scoundrel healer I have more trouble keeping someone up if they get burst fast. I think if anything the scoundrel healer needs a buff to overall healing output on their big heals and maybe in some way, make it so they get an instant cast on a big heal not koltopack which is a smaller heal + HoT. It's not enough to help keep someone up that gets bursted in the present meta of high crits and 20-30k damage hits in PVP. What is apparent though is the sorc/sage healer needs to be brought back into line with other healers and the other two healers could use some improvements, just some minor tweaks to them for a higher quality of life. Please look into this BW! Play your game, read your metrics, do whatever it takes. Sorc/sages healers need nerfed, to put it simply and other healers need some minor improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpmewin Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) The can't fix respec bug in a month and u talking about metrics? Trololo. They need to add CM stuff, more and more. Edited November 16, 2015 by helpmewin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 The can't fix respec bug in a month and u talking about metrics? Trololo. They need to add CM stuff, more and more. Entirely different teams at Bioware. You most certainly don't want an Cartel Market Designer try to balance PvP and classes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impulsive_Clone Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 So, I've seen thread after thread of players screaming for balance among the classes. Personally speaking, and I may be alone in this opinion, but having a game where every class is balanced would end up ultimately being boring. A game where every class, regardless which one you choose, does the same thing in a different way. All you really end up choosing, is what "skin" you want to wear. Which, to me, is not really a choice that has any meaning. I was intrigued by the notion of balance, and what it means in an MMO environment, and came across a video, I think everyone who screams for balance among the classes needs to see. The group is called 'Extra Credit' and they do some very informative videos on video game design, theory, and play It's here, you should watch it. This video describes in good detail, the theory of 'perfect imbalance', and why it's important in the MMO world. Whether or not they've implemented the idea well, is up for debate. Bioware knows exactly what they're doing and why. I speculate that Bioware wants a few introductory classes, like the PT/VG, and the Sage/Sorc. A force user and non-force user, to try to cater to different people who might be interested in picking up the game and playing. I think with the addition of implementing 'perfect imbalance', it's also a marketing tool designed to get people to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoomazir Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Entirely different teams at Bioware. You most certainly don't want an Cartel Market Designer try to balance PvP and classes ? Who knows, can't be worse than we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristrokratie Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) My thought on this is, the devs need to play their own game. Play it BW! Then tell us how the metrics of the merc healer, especially in 4v4 is closely performing as well as a sorc or even a scoundrel healer. I would put some money (actually I am putting money on this game monthly) that NO DEV who actually played these healing classes would say actual gaming reality matches whatever "metrics" they are comparing that indicate the healers are all performing similarly! Either buff the healing mercs shield machanics more so they can use energy shield more often, or make kolto overload actually heal-to-full like what a sorc can do while being IMPERVIOUS IN A BUBBLE. *Utterly ridiculous* Other changes could be to make some of the utilities better, for instance the utility that reduces the cooldown on energy shield for healing merc atm isn't really effective enough, the reduction would be better if it was 5 secs per hit, maybe even more seconds taken off per hit seeing they constantly get leaped to, jumped on and pulverized by mass melee now (and PTs). If they want the merc to be a moving punching bag for melee and PTs, then buff their mechanics so they can take more of the damage and focus. Give them some ADDED damage reduction if no kind of disengage from combat can be granted! The healing merc needs SOMETHING to help deal with focus better, for ranked PVP! As it stands, when 2-4 dps jump on the merc the merc healer gets totally shut down. This has been the case for the last 2+ years... While the other two healers have ways to manage the focus by dropping aggro with bubbles or out of combat stealth and teleports. Teleports! ROFL. What does the merc get? Oh, a useless 20m backward leap which then has a utility point needed to even make it SEMI-USEFUL. But wait... This utility point for the propulsion ability is never taken! Why? Because the merc healer NEEDS other more effective utilities to survive focus from the master tier utilities! Fix this ****. Please. Bring sorc/sage healers back in line. Either reduce their healing output, or take away some of their survivability. In no way should they be healing for 20-30% more on average than the other two healers, and that's what is going on. I can't even play my healing sage because it's so mindnumbingly easy and unchallenging. Is this by design I wonder? Is the idea to create some classes that are marginally easier to play for people who maybe aren't as "skilled", or who need a beginners class to begin on? If so, then at least make the more difficult healing classes have a higher ceiling of performance then. I should not have to work 2 times as hard on my healing merc, only to heal for 25% less overall healing output than I do on my sage! Total BS here. *Regarding the scoundrel healer, I am not as experienced on the class particularly in ranked. I can say that from doing regs mostly on my scoundrel healer I have more trouble keeping someone up if they get burst fast. I think if anything the scoundrel healer needs a buff to overall healing output on their big heals and maybe in some way, make it so they get an instant cast on a big heal not koltopack which is a smaller heal + HoT. It's not enough to help keep someone up that gets bursted in the present meta of high crits and 20-30k damage hits in PVP. What is apparent though is the sorc/sage healer needs to be brought back into line with other healers and the other two healers could use some improvements, just some minor tweaks to them for a higher quality of life. Please look into this BW! Play your game, read your metrics, do whatever it takes. Sorc/sages healers need nerfed, to put it simply and other healers need some minor improvements. I highly appreciate your opinion and the fact that you have taken your time to point out what has to be pointed out. Sorc>>op>merc I do not play my sage that often but when I do (in regs) I usually pull 4k hps, 5-6k if there's a good zerg. To do this with my scoundrel I need to concentrate a lot more and be aware of my surroundings than with my sage(I just go trollolofaceroll) In team ranked both merc and scouperative are playable, but you have to adjust your setup. Merc is just a giant meatbag that gets beaten up whilst scoundrels struggle to get their single target heals off due to how interrupts knockbacks and carbonize work(only one big single target heal)(if it was easier to get the st heals off I would not mind how small they are atm) Sage has superior mobility to both classes, close to scoundrel pressure healing and insane burst as well as nice absorbs and pretty much can't be stunkilled. Edited November 16, 2015 by aristrokratie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Merc heals actually have the lowest healing output again and trauma messes us up big time. On top of the crazy heat management and expensive filler rapid scan low kolto shell stacks to keep up for any meaningful sustained Kolto missle only being useful when stacked or critting not to mention it has this really skewed high end low end healing value. Nothing for our threat drop and the most set in stone utility choices, our burst is also pretty much every 19-21 seconds and not sure if its going to crit or every 55-1 min with tech override otherwise your casting a crap ton. Most immobile spec in pvp thanks to no point in taking moving successive treatment because it can still be interrupted along with htl nerf being so harsh plus its cd is pretty long. So while we have the worst def cds, worst mobility, worst resource management and no alacrity booster we do have the highest possible single target burst once every 45-60 seconds and you need a utility which we don't take to make it realistic also need it to all crit. I probably missed something but w/e at this point if you play this spec for pvp it's because you love it or simply don't know how much better you can do on the other 2. As for operatives, class is more than fine people literally just need to get over how strong/broken they were before and the spam burst stupidity that used to be surgical probe which actually still works just need to have a target with 2x kotlo probes for it to be effective and it's very effective when you can insta cast a target and get up to 5-8k crits 3 times with a TA to spare. They're also the most mobile healer, the funnest thing is that they have the same DR as mercs now with the new masterful utility, mercs are able to push theirs higher but gl keeping 5 stacks of power barrier up through stuns and energy. Operatives 2 main weakness are hard stuns and single target instant burst healing on non kolto probe targets both which were lessened by increasing the duration of kolto probes and adding a instant cast Kolto infusion and Injection on stim boost. Operatives can still put up the highest hps and even ehps if targets are taking constant inc damage it's just very tedious and requires a ton of attention. As for sorcs they're just broken either far more difficult resource management or heal nerfs specially roaming mend that move is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 I highly appreciate your opinion and the fact that you have taken your time to point out what has to be pointed out. Sorc>>op>merc I do not play my sage that often but when I do (in regs) I usually pull 4k hps, 5-6k if there's a good zerg. To do this with my scoundrel I need to concentrate a lot more and be aware of my surroundings than with my sage(I just go trollolofaceroll) In team ranked both merc and scouperative are playable, but you have to adjust your setup. Merc is just a giant meatbag that gets beaten up whilst scoundrels struggle to get their single target heals off due to how interrupts knockbacks and carbonize work(only one big single target heal)(if it was easier to get the st heals off I would not mind how small they are atm) Sage has superior mobility to both classes, close to scoundrel pressure healing and insane burst as well as nice absorbs and pretty much can't be stunkilled. Yep, everything you say is exactly my experience and thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 Merc heals actually have the lowest healing output again and trauma messes us up big time. On top of the crazy heat management and expensive filler rapid scan low kolto shell stacks to keep up for any meaningful sustained Kolto missle only being useful when stacked or critting not to mention it has this really skewed high end low end healing value. Nothing for our threat drop and the most set in stone utility choices, our burst is also pretty much every 19-21 seconds and not sure if its going to crit or every 55-1 min with tech override otherwise your casting a crap ton. Most immobile spec in pvp thanks to no point in taking moving successive treatment because it can still be interrupted along with htl nerf being so harsh plus its cd is pretty long. So while we have the worst def cds, worst mobility, worst resource management and no alacrity booster we do have the highest possible single target burst once every 45-60 seconds and you need a utility which we don't take to make it realistic also need it to all crit. I probably missed something but w/e at this point if you play this spec for pvp it's because you love it or simply don't know how much better you can do on the other 2. As for operatives, class is more than fine people literally just need to get over how strong/broken they were before and the spam burst stupidity that used to be surgical probe which actually still works just need to have a target with 2x kotlo probes for it to be effective and it's very effective when you can insta cast a target and get up to 5-8k crits 3 times with a TA to spare. They're also the most mobile healer, the funnest thing is that they have the same DR as mercs now with the new masterful utility, mercs are able to push theirs higher but gl keeping 5 stacks of power barrier up through stuns and energy. Operatives 2 main weakness are hard stuns and single target instant burst healing on non kolto probe targets both which were lessened by increasing the duration of kolto probes and adding a instant cast Kolto infusion and Injection on stim boost. Operatives can still put up the highest hps and even ehps if targets are taking constant inc damage it's just very tedious and requires a ton of attention. As for sorcs they're just broken either far more difficult resource management or heal nerfs specially roaming mend that move is absurd. And another post that explains in great detail the healing specs and their pros/cons along with their differences. thanks for sharing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) When everyone complains about healing why does no one ever bring up the fact merc healers can prevent sorc healers from using god bubble and prevent ops from using stealth? Edited November 16, 2015 by masstershake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 When everyone complains about healing why does no one ever bring up the fact merc healers can prevent sorc healers from using god bubble and prevent ops from using stealth? Exactly what does that have to do with merc heals underperforming? Electronet is one decent ability which has it's limitations now but still, it's nice. That being said, it does nothing to help a merc/commando survive focused damage or increase the classes healing output. To answer you, I am pretty sure that's why no one brings it up. Because it has nothing to do with how the specific healing class of commando/merc underperforms. E-net is not going to save the merc from being focused not even for 1 second, and neither will it improve their job which is to heal their team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 When everyone complains about healing why does no one ever bring up the fact merc healers can prevent sorc healers from using god bubble and prevent ops from using stealth? Electro-Net is a powerful utility, but by itself isn't enough to make much of a dent in the multiple advantages the other healers get. Especially a decent escape move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Electro-Net is a powerful utility, but by itself isn't enough to make much of a dent in the multiple advantages the other healers get. Especially a decent escape move. If you use electro net properly sorcs and ops do not get an escape move and the merc should always win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jherad Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 If you use electro net properly sorcs and ops do not get an escape move and the merc should always win... If the sorc and op play properly, they save their stun break for the net, rendering it ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 If the sorc and op play properly, they save their stun break for the net, rendering it ineffective. I have never seen an op or sorc use a stun break to break electro net...not saying its not possible. I just have not seen anyone do it and will test this when i get home from work and put kids to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jherad Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I have never seen an op or sorc use a stun break to break electro net...not saying its not possible. I just have not seen anyone do it and will test this when i get home from work and put kids to bed. Most players are terrible, and have little to no idea what their own abilities do - let alone other people's. It's common knowledge in ranked teams though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugolino Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 My thought on this is, the devs need to play their own game. Play it BW! Then tell us how the metrics of the merc healer, especially in 4v4 is closely performing as well as a sorc or even a scoundrel healer. I would put some money (actually I am putting money on this game monthly) that NO DEV who actually played these healing classes would say actual gaming reality matches whatever "metrics" they are comparing that indicate the healers are all performing similarly! Either buff the healing mercs shield machanics more so they can use energy shield more often, or make kolto overload actually heal-to-full like what a sorc can do while being IMPERVIOUS IN A BUBBLE. *Utterly ridiculous* Other changes could be to make some of the utilities better, for instance the utility that reduces the cooldown on energy shield for healing merc atm isn't really effective enough, the reduction would be better if it was 5 secs per hit, maybe even more seconds taken off per hit seeing they constantly get leaped to, jumped on and pulverized by mass melee now (and PTs). If they want the merc to be a moving punching bag for melee and PTs, then buff their mechanics so they can take more of the damage and focus. Give them some ADDED damage reduction if no kind of disengage from combat can be granted! The healing merc needs SOMETHING to help deal with focus better, for ranked PVP! As it stands, when 2-4 dps jump on the merc the merc healer gets totally shut down. This has been the case for the last 2+ years... While the other two healers have ways to manage the focus by dropping aggro with bubbles or out of combat stealth and teleports. Teleports! ROFL. What does the merc get? Oh, a useless 20m backward leap which then has a utility point needed to even make it SEMI-USEFUL. But wait... This utility point for the propulsion ability is never taken! Why? Because the merc healer NEEDS other more effective utilities to survive focus from the master tier utilities! Fix this ****. Please. Bring sorc/sage healers back in line. Either reduce their healing output, or take away some of their survivability. In no way should they be healing for 20-30% more on average than the other two healers, and that's what is going on. I can't even play my healing sage because it's so mindnumbingly easy and unchallenging. Is this by design I wonder? Is the idea to create some classes that are marginally easier to play for people who maybe aren't as "skilled", or who need a beginners class to begin on? If so, then at least make the more difficult healing classes have a higher ceiling of performance then. I should not have to work 2 times as hard on my healing merc, only to heal for 25% less overall healing output than I do on my sage! Total BS here. *Regarding the scoundrel healer, I am not as experienced on the class particularly in ranked. I can say that from doing regs mostly on my scoundrel healer I have more trouble keeping someone up if they get burst fast. I think if anything the scoundrel healer needs a buff to overall healing output on their big heals and maybe in some way, make it so they get an instant cast on a big heal not koltopack which is a smaller heal + HoT. It's not enough to help keep someone up that gets bursted in the present meta of high crits and 20-30k damage hits in PVP. What is apparent though is the sorc/sage healer needs to be brought back into line with other healers and the other two healers could use some improvements, just some minor tweaks to them for a higher quality of life. Please look into this BW! Play your game, read your metrics, do whatever it takes. Sorc/sages healers need nerfed, to put it simply and other healers need some minor improvements. Don't worry they just fixed healing... By making healer companions useless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masstershake Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Most players are terrible, and have little to no idea what their own abilities do - let alone other people's. It's common knowledge in ranked teams though. That was my thought when u mentioned it was possible. I only solo ranked when i do ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I have never seen an op or sorc use a stun break to break electro net...not saying its not possible. I just have not seen anyone do it and will test this when i get home from work and put kids to bed. I don't do it for every E-Net, I try to heal/bubble through it, but if I needed it to teleport or go into barrier I absolutely will use breaker. E-Net gives the Hinder effect which the stun breaker removes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 I don't do it for every E-Net, I try to heal/bubble through it, but if I needed it to teleport or go into barrier I absolutely will use breaker. E-Net gives the Hinder effect which the stun breaker removes. Exactly, and that's why E-net is useful, but it's also situational meaning it depends on the player you stick it on, whether or not their breaker is up, or they even know to use it to break. That being said, this one ability does absolutely nothing in regards to helping a commando heal or escape focus fire by multiple enemies which has been the crux of the class for years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omeru Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Entirely different teams at Bioware. You most certainly don't want an Cartel Market Designer try to balance PvP and classes ? We definitely dont want current team doing class balance, anyone can do better class balance than current combat team, i personally dont oppose art team doing class balance at least they would listen community, it cant be worse than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristrokratie Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 We definitely dont want current team doing class balance, anyone can do better class balance than current combat team, i personally dont oppose art team doing class balance at least they would listen community, it cant be worse than this. Every time I read a comment like this I have to smile because you're right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAnyOldName Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Merc's need all most all of their utilites rolled into the class and then even better new utilities to maybe possibly just a tiny little bit be relatively close-ish the viable. Even then who knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichebem Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Sages & Operatives have these oh-****-save-me Buttons, like Bubble / Stealth. Merc hasn´t. Merc has net. For me thats fine. It might be harder to survive with a merc, but it is harder to survive against a merc, too. The Big Problem is the HPS. Merc is underperforming as hell. It would be quite easy to fix this. E.g. with a "Setbonus" which is only working in PvP Areas which Buffs merc healing by 20%. Merc still wouldn´t get the highest HPS, but would be a kind of useable... ........... Just a question: Is there any Screenshot by a Merc over 6k HPS ? How Many Sages/Operatives Screens above 6k HPS are there? How Many Sages/Operatives Screens above 7k HPS? Merc Screens above 7k HPS? LoL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Just a question: Is there any Screenshot by a Merc over 6k HPS ? How Many Sages/Operatives Screens above 6k HPS are there? How Many Sages/Operatives Screens above 7k HPS? Merc Screens above 7k HPS? LoL 1) I have not seen a merc do 6k HPS. I have to imagine it's possible but have not actually witnessed it at least in part because of how few merc healers there are in PVP (for obvious reasons). 2) LOTS. I am not an especially good or active granked healer and I've done it many times on each class. 3) I'm not sure but I have come relatively close (6500) on operative and very close (6800) on sorc. There are much better and much more active granked healers out there than me so it has certainly been done on both, probably quite a few times by now. 4) Again I don't know but I doubt it. If they exist they're probably either not legit (e.g. farmed in huttball acid) or the result of a outstandingly bad enemy team Edited November 17, 2015 by yellow_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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