Any reason to use Lightning/Telekinetics?

[TitusOfTides]

With our auto crit not receiving the appropriate boost, is there still a reason to use these specs? With underwhelming burst, is this spec suboptimal for Sorcs and Sages? Edited November 9, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[KeyboardNinja]

In general, Lightning performs generally on par with or slightly behind Madness in terms of single-target DPS. The difference is measurable, but not significant (it's around 0.5-1%, give or take). Madness stomps all over Lightning in anything that involves pushback or sustained AoE, whereas Lightning has significantly better burst (both ST and AoE) and enormously better target swapping. I use both specs in PvE, depending on the fight. Unfortunately, there are some significant caveats on both sides.

 

First off, the Madness rotation which performs better than Lightning is unsustainable. You can keep it up for about four and a half minutes, at which point you literally just run out of force. The only way to avoid this is to reduce (or even eliminate) the use of Lightning Strike in the rotation, which generally makes the rotation sustainable but reduces the DPS considerably. The sustainable Madness rotation is lower single-target DPS than Lightning, and Lightning's rotation is infinitely sustainable with the amount of crit we run these days.

 

On the other side, Madness's burst is generally underestimated. Lightning will beat it single-target if the burn is around 10-15 seconds in duration, or if cooldowns are unavailable, but with all cooldowns up, Madness pulls significantly ahead of Lightning from the 15-40 second mark. I'm not sure exactly why this is, but generally Madness just has a stronger opener. Unfortunately, it really does need all of its CDs to do this. Lightning is obviously very dependent on Polarity Shift, but its burst is less dependent on PS than Madness's is.

 

A similar situation exists in the AoE realm. Generally speaking, Madness has the second best AoE in the game (just behind Vengeance). However, it takes some setup and also a fair bit of time to take effect, since it is DoT-dependent. If you need to just murder a whole bunch of stuff within a 5 second window, Lightning is going to put out an order of magnitude more damage with its Chain Lightning > Force Storm > Chain Lightning triple. An example of this burst AoE would be the Trenchcutters on Kephess, while the sustained AoE is more epitomized by the adds on Draxus.

 

Finally, Lightning has better mobility flexibility than Madness, while Madness has theoretically more "mobile GCDs" and thus would make for a better "scripted mobility" option.

 

In general, it just depends on the fight. For most boss fights, I suspect I'll be using Lightning. Madness makes sense if I need sustained AoE or pushback protection (since only Force Leech is pushback-suceptible) without the need for target swapping or dynamic mobility.

 

Off the top of my head (assuming NiM where relevant):

 

• EC - Drouks - Lightning
  
• EC - Tanks - Lightning
  
• EC - Vorgath - Lightning/Madness
  
• EC - Kephess - Lightning
  
• TfB - Writhing Horror - Lightning
  
• TfB - Dread Guard - Madness
  
• TfB - Operator IX - Lightning
  
• TfB - Kephess - Lightning
  
• TfB - Terror - Lightning
  
• S&V - Dash'roode - Madness
  
• S&V - Titan VI - Lightning
  
• S&V - Thrasher - Lightning/Madness
  
• S&V - Oasis - Lightning
  
• S&V - Olok - Lightning
  
• S&V - Warlords - Madness (though sustain may become an issue)
  
• S&V - Styrak - Lightning
  
• DF - Nefra - Lightning
  
• DF - Draxus - Madness
  
• DF - Grob'thok - Lightning
  
• DF - Corruptor Zero - Madness
  
• DF - Brontes - Lightning
  
• DP - Bestia - Lightning/Madness
  
• DP - Tyrans - Madness
  
• DP - Calphayus - Lightning
  
• DP - Raptus - Lightning
  
• DP - Council - Lightning/Madness
  
• Rav - Sparky - Lightning
  
• Rav - Bulo - Lightning/Madness
  
• Rav - Torque - Madness
  
• Rav - Master/Blaster - Lightning
  
• Rav - Cora - Madness
  
• ToS - Malaphar - Lightning/Madness
  
• ToS - Sword Squadron - Lightning
  
• ToS - Underlurker - Lightning/Madness
  
• ToS - Commanders - Lightning/Madness
  
• ToS - Revan - Lightning (Madness maybe better for Core)
  

[TitusOfTides]

Thank you for all of the information, it's more than I expected.

[HungGaKungFuDUDE]

keyboardninja gave an excellent response. I will coat tail off of that with my opinion on the matter regarding pvp. I personally find both specs viable, although I prefer to play lightning. Most people think I'm crazy

 

Maddness will usually put out more overall DPS, however lightning's burstiness is very situationally useful. I find that in WZ's there are plenty of opportunities where firing off a quick burst can help drop an otherwise-alive opponent quickly. Very effective in Huttball, for instance. The mobility is also very nice, particularly if you spec so that you can fire TB while moving to setup you CL instant. Plus, us being the glass cannon class, mobility = life in pvp. It is definitely harder to be a "chart topper" with lighting spec, and honestly it is slightly more difficult to be a quality player, because the burst nature of the spec demands that you time your rotation/ability use properly for the given sitatuion. However, it can be a very useful support spec in warzones, and It's really fun/rewarding to play IMO

 

In short, lightning is an effective single-target spec if your situational awareness is above average. I do 7-figure dps fairly regularly in warzone's with lightning spec. This by no means is meant to knock Madness either; it is a very effective and fun spec to play, and arguably a bit easier to use effectively.

Edited November 10, 2015 by HungGaKungFuDUDE

[verfallen]

been my spec since 2,0 I'm sticking with it even if its not FoTM

 

I wish Recklessness boosted TB or that TB gets back a bit more punch but its still a fun spec and even tough mobility got nerfed a bit with force speed cooldown increase its still mobile enough when you have to dodge circles and such.

 

I still sometime use madness but that loaded lightning opening quickly gets missed

[Dalthanar]

I have found that if I run on 450 (around 4.5%) Alacrity and 1400 Crit rating (70%) then in a raid I get closer to the rest of the DPS team in my 8M HM runs. Although the DPS in the team I run in are an engi sniper, carnage mara and AP PT.

 

I can trick some stats with AOE from CL but only if the Engi Sniper makes a mistake, if he is on point then his fire and forget is much better than my channelled AOE.

 

We generally roll over the majority of content and are mostly geared 116/220/224 token gear but, right now, from my point of view, I think that they just keep me around to massage their Epeens.

 

When we go NiM and the rolling stops, I am not so sure that I will be included in the raid set up (I would kick me). The current back up DPS is another engi sniper.

 

If you ask me, one Sorc is fine for HM content if you have a strong group that can back you up. And, you can support if you don’t have a healer Sorc in the group but as most Sorcs have gone to healer now it will be unlikely.

 

Not a good time for a DPS Sorc in end game PVE.

 

PvP is no problem any spec is worth having, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sorc is still king in PvP.

[Divona]

If you ask me, one Sorc is fine for HM content if you have a strong group that can back you up. And, you can support if you don’t have a healer Sorc in the group but as most Sorcs have gone to healer now it will be unlikely.

 

Not a good time for a DPS Sorc in end game PVE.

 

 

Second that. With very good dps in group can balance out. Option is to roll sage/sorc healer or just switch class because i dont see any motivation or desire from Bioware team to even acknowledge issues for this class dps has now due to 4.0 changes. Also not many even bother to write on forums they just rolling other class or already done that.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Divona

[IkarusXY]

Aren't we fairly close in terms of single target DPS since 4.0?

As far as the optimal stats thread is saying, we have a max difference of around 4-500 average DPS from the highest parsing specs and we are always doing very well AOE wise.

 

 

Do the Nightmare DPS checks really require 6.8k-7k single target DPS so sage/sorcs are completely unviable?

[Dalthanar]

Aren't we fairly close in terms of single target DPS since 4.0?

As far as the optimal stats thread is saying, we have a max difference of around 4-500 average DPS from the highest parsing specs and we are always doing very well AOE wise.

 

 

Do the Nightmare DPS checks really require 6.8k-7k single target DPS so sage/sorcs are completely unviable?

 

I consider myself and average player and so my opinion is based on the fact that I will be in the same category as the masses. From what I can tell, at best optimum numbers don't take into account the variables of mechanics and at worst they are just wrong.

 

In a raid I see equally geared Mara's, PT's, Snipers and even the odd Jugg or Merc pulling 5.6k on most HM boss fights without too much difficulty. To get to 5k I cant really put too much of a foot wrong in my rotation. If I do then I can end up 4.5k or worse.

 

Completely unviable is an extreme, some people will be more successful than others as is always the way.. But, right now, I don't think many people will feel comfortable when they check over starparse after a NiM raid. After a wipe night when its deemed DPS is the problem, the Sorc is the first out. That's just the way of things, the rub is that the Sorc player may not have put a foot wrong within the boundaries of his class.

 

AoE is really the same, anything a Sorc can do a Jugg or Sniper or Mara can do better with less effort because our talent comes, outside of a proc on CL, from channelling so whilst we AoE we can do nothing else.

 

On Boss fights with a couple of adds you will get an extra 300 - 400 DPS even if you follow a normal rotation because Cl will smash out some good numbers for you. If mechanics require you to swap targets, your back into muddy water. CL > FL > CL etc will get you over 10k dps on some trash mob pulls but who cares about trash.

 

I read a while back, if you can PvP well on a Merc then you will pretty much be unstoppable on anything else. Same is true now of a Sorc in PvE, if you can play it well, chances are you will be awesome on something else.

 

To close this tale of woes, the only glimmer of hope I can put out there is 4.0 is just about a month old now? and so anything is possible and in 6 months time somebody brighter than me may crack it and write a guide that fixes everything. Remember in 3.0 you couldn't find a mara for love nor money I think that will be what happens to the Sorc, atleast in PvE.

[KeyboardNinja]

In a raid I see equally geared Mara's, PT's, Snipers and even the odd Jugg or Merc pulling 5.6k on most HM boss fights without too much difficulty. To get to 5k I cant really put too much of a foot wrong in my rotation. If I do then I can end up 4.5k or worse.

 

I haven't had a chance to do THAT much raiding on my sorc since 4.0, though I've done a bit, and in my experience things are closer than that. I was out-parsing mercs pretty handily (even better-geared mercs). Snipers are in their own little world, and our sniper was out-parsing me, but he was also significantly better geared. I suspect he'll still be doing better than I am even on equal gear footing, but it will probably be closer (we're talking about the difference between a 5k and a 4.7k; it wasn't particularly extreme). Our marauder was really under-geared, and I was beating him by a solid 10-15% on most fights (which was to be expected).

 

In short: the differences are not quite as extreme as you're painting them. Yes, there has always been more execution pressure on sorcs than on the other ranged DPS due to a) squishiness, and b) APM loss susceptibility (time is our only resource). Yes, Sorc DPS has always fallen off a cliff in a boss fight faster and more easily than the other ranged. I don't think anything about that has changed now, and for me at least, that's part of the fun of the class.

 

Completely unviable is an extreme, some people will be more successful than others as is always the way.. But, right now, I don't think many people will feel comfortable when they check over starparse after a NiM raid. After a wipe night when its deemed DPS is the problem, the Sorc is the first out. That's just the way of things, the rub is that the Sorc player may not have put a foot wrong within the boundaries of his class.

 

Sorcs are capable of meeting the DPS checks. People can toss them out for more powertechs if they want to, but that's just an execution cop-out. The class is viable, and shouldn't be discarded out of hand by overzealous raid leaders who think class stacking is the only way to make the checks.

 

AoE is really the same, anything a Sorc can do a Jugg or Sniper or Mara can do better with less effort because our talent comes, outside of a proc on CL, from channelling so whilst we AoE we can do nothing else.

 

Lightning Sorcs have significantly better burst AoE than any other spec in the game. Madness Sorcs have the second-best sustained AoE, just behind Vengeance Juggs (a spec which parses significantly lower than Madness in terms of single-target). Sorcs are the all-around AoE kings right now.

 

I read a while back, if you can PvP well on a Merc then you will pretty much be unstoppable on anything else. Same is true now of a Sorc in PvE, if you can play it well, chances are you will be awesome on something else.

 

Maybe. Does that matter though? What do you want to play? If you can make your Sorc work, and you want to play your sorc, then why not play your sorc? I am.

[Kilvarough]

I love my Lightning Sorc and I wouldn't trade her for any other spec right now. I'll admit I haven't done many ops, but I've done quite a few HM's and I can see with my own eyes that I'm the one taking out multiple enemies the easiest. While some people are whittling away at a group, I'm pouring down the thunder and lightning (pun intended) and just tearing through mobs like paper. And I'm not even super geared, I have a couple of 216's 1 220, the rest 208. I have to agree that we are the Kings of AoE right now.

[runiez]

I love my Lightning Sorc and I wouldn't trade her for any other spec right now. I'll admit I haven't done many ops, but I've done quite a few HM's and I can see with my own eyes that I'm the one taking out multiple enemies the easiest. While some people are whittling away at a group, I'm pouring down the thunder and lightning (pun intended) and just tearing through mobs like paper. And I'm not even super geared, I have a couple of 216's 1 220, the rest 208. I have to agree that we are the Kings of AoE right now.

 

Easy aoe, yes.

Kings of aoe, nah.

😉

[Kilvarough]

Easy aoe, yes.

Kings of aoe, nah.

😉

 

Well, If not, we're pretty dang close. Like I said, I have zero trouble with multiple mobs, whereas I see some people who are supposed to be better at AoE not doing as well. Maybe it's because Lightning is a burst spec, so I'm "bursting" through everything, but if they are dying faster for me than for other AoE AC's, then doesn't that make me better? I'd say that qualifies it at least for nomination of KIng lol

[KeyboardNinja]

Easy aoe, yes.

Kings of aoe, nah.

😉

 

Vengeance beats Madness for anything that Madness beats Lightning. Marksmanship beats all three in a very very narrow window (around the 7-12 seconds of sustain mark). Lightning beats everyone in the 3-5 second window.

 

All around, I think it's safe to crown sorcs the kings of AoE. Vengeance is the only spec that is unambiguously better, and it only holds over longer time periods.

[Waferdanos]

I haven't had a chance to do THAT much raiding on my sorc since 4.0, though I've done a bit, and in my experience things are closer than that.

In my raid team i have a PT, mara, merc and sorc (truly yours).

We've done pretty much everything by now, and there is not a lot of change since 3.0. If you have some adds to work with, you're fine. If boss is purely single target, like Tyrans, Styrak, Brontes etc, sorc and merc are pretty much equal, and way, way below PT.

Generally, on single target boss, our PT gaining 500+ dps more than me (and he is as lazy as one can possibly be). And it's not like i'm the last sorc on the list.

Sorcs are capable of meeting the DPS checks. People can toss them out for more powertechs if they want to, but that's just an execution cop-out. The class is viable, and shouldn't be discarded out of hand by overzealous raid leaders who think class stacking is the only way to make the checks.

In my opinion (which is just my opinion), when people are talking about dps checks, they mean something different.

What i think they mean, is that they want to be competitive. In current balance, i know for a fact, that i'm unable to compete with powertech or mara, when it comes to single target damage. Provided they're as geared as i am, they are as skilled with their class as i am with sorc, i'm unable to suprass them, no matter how good my performace is.

Sorcs are very good in AoE department, that's true. But in SWTOR, there is no true need for AoE. At least in my experince, if there is a dps check, it's always a single target check.

Lightning Sorcs have significantly better burst AoE than any other spec in the game. Madness Sorcs have the second-best sustained AoE, just behind Vengeance Juggs (a spec which parses significantly lower than Madness in terms of single-target). Sorcs are the all-around AoE kings right now.

Your information about Vengeance is outdated, they're parsing just like Madness on single target.

[verfallen]

I can live with mdps having more dps, its actually as it should be since they'll typically have less time on boss due to mechanics in some fights, How much is debatable. In metric lightning should be close in number imo to an arsenal merc, as they are similar spec in their turret like cast based dps, or an MM sniper.

 

If they'd revert to start of 3.0 mobility I'd have no issue about where our dps is tough.

[KeyboardNinja]

In my opinion (which is just my opinion), when people are talking about dps checks, they mean something different.

What i think they mean, is that they want to be competitive. In current balance, i know for a fact, that i'm unable to compete with powertech or mara, when it comes to single target damage. Provided they're as geared as i am, they are as skilled with their class as i am with sorc, i'm unable to suprass them, no matter how good my performace is.

Sorcs are very good in AoE department, that's true. But in SWTOR, there is no true need for AoE. At least in my experince, if there is a dps check, it's always a single target check.

 

Draxus without cheese is an AoE DPS check. Obviously if you five DPS it, then it's sort of irrelevant, but that's how the content was designed. EC Kephess is mostly an AoE/burst DPS check; Lightning has always been one of the best specs for that fight, and it remains so. Corrupter Zero is easier with decent AoE DPS, but it's not strictly necessary. If Torque were correctly tuned, it would contain an AoE DPS check.

 

AP needs to be nerfed. But in general, I don't view "competitive" the same way that you do. Sure, I participate in the friendly needling about DPS meter numbers, but it's just needling. The only time I worry about DPS output is if I feel like I'm not actually carrying my weight in a fight. That doesn't mean "doing the same-or-better DPS as the other players". That means "doing >=20% of the total DPS required to beat the fight" (20% roughly accounts for tank+healer DPS). If AP is doing 40% of the total DPS, that doesn't really affect me other than ending the fight abnormally fast.

 

Your information about Vengeance is outdated, they're parsing just like Madness on single target.

 

My information on Vengeance dates from this week, paired with the theory crafted values. I do think that Bant's numbers undersell Madness slightly, since literally everyone uses a different rotation than the one he has in his spreadsheet (mostly because everyone uses an unsustainable rotation, while his rotation is sustainable), but even with his numbers underselling Madness, it still comes out ahead of Vengeance.

 

One thing to remember is that both Madness and Vengeance have noticeable RNG impacts, with Madness particularly strongly affected (due to DoT crits). They're close enough that a slightly above-average Vengeance parse will beat even an average Madness parse, and a bad Madness parse will be in the toilet compared to average Vengeance.

Edited November 16, 2015 by KeyboardNinja

[Waferdanos]

Draxus without cheese is an AoE DPS check. Obviously if you five DPS it, then it's sort of irrelevant, but that's how the content was designed. EC Kephess is mostly an AoE/burst DPS check; Lightning has always been one of the best specs for that fight, and it remains so. Corrupter Zero is easier with decent AoE DPS, but it's not strictly necessary. If Torque were correctly tuned, it would contain an AoE DPS check.

Sorry, but i dont see alternative raid composition for Draxus as cheese. It's a valid option, it's not an exploit.

Kephess is perfectly fine without storng AoE, due to low hp of groups.

Corruptor Zero is easier, yes. But it can be done without much issues with little to none AoE damage.

IF Torque was correctly tuned - he is not. And i doubt that he ever will be.

And that was my point - you never need AoE damage. It's good to have, can be convinient, but it's never a "must have".

But in general, I don't view "competitive" the same way that you do. Sure, I participate in the friendly needling about DPS meter numbers, but it's just needling. The only time I worry about DPS output is if I feel like I'm not actually carrying my weight in a fight. That doesn't mean "doing the same-or-better DPS as the other players". That means "doing >=20% of the total DPS required to beat the fight" (20% roughly accounts for tank+healer DPS). If AP is doing 40% of the total DPS, that doesn't really affect me other than ending the fight abnormally fast.

That's exacly my point. Some people can veiw dps checks as very competitive thing. And feel very dissapointed, when their raid members doing about 1k dps better than them just by facerolling on keyboard.

I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, just most shouts "nerf this, nerf that" (and "buff us", of course ) from high skilled players comes form this.

One thing to remember is that both Madness and Vengeance have noticeable RNG impacts, with Madness particularly strongly affected (due to DoT crits). They're close enough that a slightly above-average Vengeance parse will beat even an average Madness parse, and a bad Madness parse will be in the toilet compared to average Vengeance.

So, basically, they are pretty much equal, arent they?

[KeyboardNinja]

Sorry, but i dont see alternative raid composition for Draxus as cheese. It's a valid option, it's not an exploit.

 

Certainly not an exploit in any sense of the word, but it's on the cheese scale somewhere. For one thing, it requires one of your tanks to be capable of playing a DPS spec (and geared for such). Not an unreasonable demand for a progression raid tank (though I know plenty of tanks who've cleared all content on tier who can't meet that requirement), but still an extra requirement.

 

The content is tuned for four DPS. If you four DPS it, you need extremely high AoE. If you five DPS it, it's pretty easy to just skate by with whatever, because the content wasn't correctly tuned to require both tanks.

 

Kephess is perfectly fine without storng AoE, due to low hp of groups.

 

Eh… I'm not sure I agree with that, but I won't argue the point.

 

That's exacly my point. Some people can veiw dps checks as very competitive thing. And feel very dissapointed, when their raid members doing about 1k dps better than them just by facerolling on keyboard.

I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, just most shouts "nerf this, nerf that" (and "buff us", of course ) from high skilled players comes form this.

 

That's fair. :-)

 

So, basically, they are pretty much equal, arent they?

 

Well, in practice more or less. If you go to the math though, which predicts the averages over a far larger number of trials than players can attempt, Madness is appreciably ahead. Those averages are just washed out by RNG in most specific instances. The point is that Madness will come out ahead of Vengeance more often than Vengeance comes out ahead of Madness, all other things being equal, but they're certainly both going to have their moments of RNGlory.

[Waferdanos]

Certainly not an exploit in any sense of the word, but it's on the cheese scale somewhere. For one thing, it requires one of your tanks to be capable of playing a DPS spec (and geared for such). Not an unreasonable demand for a progression raid tank (though I know plenty of tanks who've cleared all content on tier who can't meet that requirement), but still an extra requirement.

 

The content is tuned for four DPS. If you four DPS it, you need extremely high AoE. If you five DPS it, it's pretty easy to just skate by with whatever, because the content wasn't correctly tuned to require both tanks.

I dont think that all encounters should be tuned for and revolve around 2 tank 4 dd 2 healers.

The way I see it, if boss encounter allows you to play around with raid composition, tuning it around role, not class you're playing, it's actually a good boss desing.

But maybe i've played too much D&D, maybe this cant be applied for MMO, i'm not entirely sure.

Well, in practice more or less. If you go to the math though, which predicts the averages over a far larger number of trials than players can attempt, Madness is appreciably ahead. Those averages are just washed out by RNG in most specific instances. The point is that Madness will come out ahead of Vengeance more often than Vengeance comes out ahead of Madness, all other things being equal, but they're certainly both going to have their moments of RNGlory.

I'm pretty sure, we both will agree that practice is the only thing that actually matters.

While discussing this, i would also point out, that Vengeance actually have energy managment, while Madness, when used in ecounters like Styrak, less so Tyrans (NiM ofc), will just run out of force before boss will run out of hp. Or we'll have throw lightning strike out of window, but with lightning strike will also go our dps. And we dont have that much to start with.

[Dalthanar]

I think we have come full circle.

 

The truth for me after all the dummy smashing testing on rotations and gear swap outs is that even at my best I am going to be 500 dps off people that are cruising.

 

My group has cleared HM so a Sorc in a group does not mean that it wont happen. But as has been said above my fun comes from feeling part of the team, I really don't, I have a good raid leader that has stuck by me and understands where Sorcs are at the moment but when I evaluate my own performance it comes up short.

 

If I raid PT or Mara (less so sniper because i just don't play it enough) my DPS is right in with the rest of the guys again. Sorc is my preferred class and post 3.0 I was having a ball, shame on me for having so much fun.

[KeyboardNinja]

While discussing this, i would also point out, that Vengeance actually have energy managment, while Madness, when used in ecounters like Styrak, less so Tyrans (NiM ofc), will just run out of force before boss will run out of hp. Or we'll have throw lightning strike out of window, but with lightning strike will also go our dps. And we dont have that much to start with.

 

And THIS is my problem with Madness. All of the parsing we do and much of the modeling over-estimates the amount of DPS it can deal because we pretend that we can sustain an unsustainable rotation (to his credit, Bant does not fall into this trap). For example, take the best Vengeance parse on the 1.5 mil dummy and compare it to the best parse on the 2.5 mil. The 2.5 mil should be lower, but not by that much (mostly due to less competition). Now try the same exercise with Madness. You have to use a completely different rotation to sustain long enough to push out 2.5 million points of damage, and it costs you a lot of DPS in order to do that.

[Kaytrine]

And THIS is my problem with Madness. All of the parsing we do and much of the modeling over-estimates the amount of DPS it can deal because we pretend that we can sustain an unsustainable rotation (to his credit, Bant does not fall into this trap). For example, take the best Vengeance parse on the 1.5 mil dummy and compare it to the best parse on the 2.5 mil. The 2.5 mil should be lower, but not by that much (mostly due to less competition). Now try the same exercise with Madness. You have to use a completely different rotation to sustain long enough to push out 2.5 million points of damage, and it costs you a lot of DPS in order to do that.

 

I've done this test, its not off by that much. Adding in consuming darkness to the rotation (in between demolish and force lightning), removes approx 200dps, while never running out of force. Now 200dps depending on context could be a lot, but its not drastic.

[Sindariel]

I've done this test, its not off by that much. Adding in consuming darkness to the rotation (in between demolish and force lightning), removes approx 200dps, while never running out of force. Now 200dps depending on context could be a lot, but its not drastic.

 

It IS drastic, because those 200DPS put the spec behind Lightning which simply makes it a waste of time and effort.