Spoilers! **Darth Marr´s Fate Discussion** KotFE

[AkeroStar]

The denial is strong in this one.

 

Not exactly denial. I just dont want Darth Marr to be dead, so Im thinking of every possible way he could have survived. And there are in fact several ways he could have survived. If it comes down to it I can accept that Darth Marr is dead, as long as he comes back to life somehow. I doubt you would just stand silent if your favorite Star Wars character ever faced death.

[Paulsutherland]

If it comes down to it I can accept that Darth Marr is dead, as long as he comes back to life somehow.

 

But he'll be dead?

 

Just send me hi armour and I'll be.... Darth Marr .2

[AkeroStar]

But he'll be dead?

 

Just send me hi armour and I'll be.... Darth Marr .2

 

If hes dead for real I will accept it. If hes not then I sure as heck hope he comes back to life somehow, which is possible. Many other Sith have come back to life before. But at the moment no one, no matter what, can say 100% for sure if hes alive or not. Thats why Im arguing, debating and trying to prove and present points that it is very likely that he is alive. Im not saying 100% he is alive. I want to believe he is alive, I want him to be alive. Im just theorizing with what we know that it is likely that he could be alive. There are to many points, hints, facts and possibilities to say otherwise. So yes, he is very likely alive if you ask me.

[Paulsutherland]

If hes dead for real I will accept it. If hes not then I sure as heck hope he comes back to life somehow, which is possible. Many other Sith have come back to life before. But at the moment no one, no matter what, can say 100% for sure if hes alive or not. Thats why Im arguing, debating and trying to prove and present points that it is very likely that he is alive. Im not saying 100% he is alive. I want to believe he is alive, I want him to be alive. Im just theorizing with what we know that it is likely that he could be alive. There are to many points, hints, facts and possibilities to say otherwise. So yes, he is very likely alive if you ask me.

 

That or were both dead from the Destroyer ramming/getting destroyed. Nothing were playing is "real."

[Saberchic]

Look, I love Darth Marr, but he is dead. I was unhappy about it, especially with how he dies, but even he himself acknowledges that he died in a conversation with Satele. And as sad as that makes me (I am definitely in the Darth Marr fanclub), we have to face that he is no longer living.

 

On an up note, at least he is still around even if it is in ghost form. It gives me hope that his role is still not done and that they have more in store for him.

[Rhyltran]

Not exactly denial. I just dont want Darth Marr to be dead, so Im thinking of every possible way he could have survived. And there are in fact several ways he could have survived. If it comes down to it I can accept that Darth Marr is dead, as long as he comes back to life somehow. I doubt you would just stand silent if your favorite Star Wars character ever faced death.

 

Darth Marr was already terminally ill. His body wouldn't be as strong as someone else's body. Not to mention that was a big attack. Darth Marr doesn't know essence transfer. He's a warrior first and foremost whereas Essence Transfer is a very rare technique. To essence transfer you have to transfer your essence into someone else's body. There's no evidence marr knows this or he'd have probably taken a Zakuul Knight's body. Remember, if he was badly injured they can't take his armor off because he's ENCASED in it which means he can't even be treated for major body wounds.

 

Darth Marr isn't as strong as you think. Just like the player he needed help in bringing down Revan. Arcann is probably as strong if not stronger than Valkorion and the fact that he couldn't block his attack fully says a lot. This means it's something Arcann could barely deal with whereas Darth Marr, who is weaker than Arcann, wouldn't stand a chance against the attack.

 

Third, he was a ghost. He looked just like the other ghosts. There's such a thing as Telepathy but Telepathy is the ability to speak in other people's minds. He wouldn't show up as an actual entity. There is NO difference in his appearance in that than any of the other ghosts we run into throughout the story.

[AkeroStar]

Darth Marr was already terminally ill. His body wouldn't be as strong as someone else's body. Not to mention that was a big attack. Darth Marr doesn't know essence transfer. He's a warrior first and foremost whereas Essence Transfer is a very rare technique. To essence transfer you have to transfer your essence into someone else's body. There's no evidence marr knows this or he'd have probably taken a Zakuul Knight's body. Remember, if he was badly injured they can't take his armor off because he's ENCASED in it which means he can't even be treated for major body wounds.

 

Darth Marr isn't as strong as you think. Just like the player he needed help in bringing down Revan. Arcann is probably as strong if not stronger than Valkorion and the fact that he couldn't block his attack fully says a lot. This means it's something Arcann could barely deal with whereas Darth Marr, who is weaker than Arcann, wouldn't stand a chance against the attack.

 

Third, he was a ghost. He looked just like the other ghosts. There's such a thing as Telepathy but Telepathy is the ability to speak in other people's minds. He wouldn't show up as an actual entity. There is NO difference in his appearance in that than any of the other ghosts we run into throughout the story.

 

Look, I love Darth Marr, but he is dead. I was unhappy about it, especially with how he dies, but even he himself acknowledges that he died in a conversation with Satele. And as sad as that makes me (I am definitely in the Darth Marr fanclub), we have to face that he is no longer living.

 

On an up note, at least he is still around even if it is in ghost form. It gives me hope that his role is still not done and that they have more in store for him.

 

Ok, you both make good points. One thing that bothers me and that keeps me thinking that the ghost of Marr we see isnt Marr. Its so light side looking. Plus I cant recall anywhere, not in any movie or on wookieepedia any Sith that appear as light side looking ghosts. Yes Anakin did in Star Wars 6, but that was once he was redeemed and once again light side. If his ghost was red as in Sith looking that could explain it more. But its blue, as a Jedi. Darth Marr is a true believer in the Sith code. So A, why would he appear as a Jedi force ghost? And B, why would he show so much concern at the end of chapter 9. He is a Sith after all. It seems to much good guy ish for him to worry about loss of lives. Im not saying hes 100% evil, not all sith are, look at Lana. But it just seems like someone who believes in the Sith code fully and even is a member of the dark council, a ruthless warrior. I dont know just wouldnt care that much. Sith typically have little concern of others lives.

 

Im still willing to accept eventually, if it comes to it and its true, that Darth Marr is dead. But right now no matter how remote the chance is. There is still a chance. Star Wars characters are famous for beating the odds.

 

Also that line, "Even when my life depended on it, I did not see him properly until it was too late". That can refer to life and death. But it could also refer to his way of life, his daily life. He doesnt elaborate that he means his true death. Yes it sure sounds like he means life and death in that way. But the simplest conclusion isnt always the right one.

[JSitruc]

Arcann doesnt get hit by Valkorions attack to Darth Marr. When Arcann frees us he attacks Valkorion. Then he gets hit by Valkorions lightning. A hit just as big and bad as what Marr got, yet he walks away. So Marr must have survived to but just got knocked out.

 

the lightning attack that "killed" Marr is not the same type of attack that Valkorian did when he was "killed".. There was some kind of force explosion/wave that happened.

 

do I want Marr to still be alive? yup. Do I think he is alive? nope. Do I think I could be wrong? Yup.

[AkeroStar]

the lightning attack that "killed" Marr is not the same type of attack that Valkorian did when he was "killed".. There was some kind of force explosion/wave that happened.

 

do I want Marr to still be alive? yup. Do I think he is alive? nope. Do I think I could be wrong? Yup.

 

Indeed. I want Darth Marr to be alive. I think he is alive. Do I think Im wrong, well Im no know it all. But I have mentioned a lot of points and theories. So yes I could be wrong but I think its unlikely. If Im wrong and Marr is really dead, then he better come back to life at some point or I shall riot.

 

But really we can debate this forever, we have until start of 2016.

 

But one thing really bugs me. Doesnt anyone else get a hint of suspicion or such in those 2 scenes when Darth Marr supposedly shows himself as a force ghost? Yes Sith can learn that power. But Ive never seen a Sith appear like that or heard of it, it looks so Jedi like. Also I cant recall an account that mentions that Sith spirits can travel anywhere in the galaxy. Usually dead Sith can appear as a spirit around their tombs, but then their spirits also look very Sith like. Darth Bane for example in Star Wars Clone Wars. Darth Marr and Darth Bane, both Sith. Darth Marr was also a true believer in the Sith Code. Yet Darth Marr´s spirit looks so Jedi like and Bane´s looks very Sith like.

 

So that is more reasons I think Marr is alive and creates that illusion of himself to Satele. Or its Valkorion being an imposter.

 

Link to picture of Darth Bane´s spirit:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/e/e1/Darth_Bane_TCW.png/revision/latest?cb=20140701230520

Edited October 24, 2015 by AkeroStar

[PoliteAssasin]

Arcann was hit with the same lightning that marr was. Difference is that he is much stronger. You throw him off the balcony and he still survives.

[Rhyltran]

Ok, you both make good points. One thing that bothers me and that keeps me thinking that the ghost of Marr we see isnt Marr. Its so light side looking. Plus I cant recall anywhere, not in any movie or on wookieepedia any Sith that appear as light side looking ghosts. Yes Anakin did in Star Wars 6, but that was once he was redeemed and once again light side. If his ghost was red as in Sith looking that could explain it more. But its blue, as a Jedi. Darth Marr is a true believer in the Sith code. So A, why would he appear as a Jedi force ghost? And B, why would he show so much concern at the end of chapter 9. He is a Sith after all. It seems to much good guy ish for him to worry about loss of lives. Im not saying hes 100% evil, not all sith are, look at Lana. But it just seems like someone who believes in the Sith code fully and even is a member of the dark council, a ruthless warrior. I dont know just wouldnt care that much. Sith typically have little concern of others lives.

 

Im still willing to accept eventually, if it comes to it and its true, that Darth Marr is dead. But right now no matter how remote the chance is. There is still a chance. Star Wars characters are famous for beating the odds.

 

Also that line, "Even when my life depended on it, I did not see him properly until it was too late". That can refer to life and death. But it could also refer to his way of life, his daily life. He doesnt elaborate that he means his true death. Yes it sure sounds like he means life and death in that way. But the simplest conclusion isnt always the right one.

 

That's just the effect they went with. You haven't played the Sith Inquisitor story have you?

 

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/td0I6dI8MCQ/maxresdefault.jpg

 

There's plenty of sith ghosts in the story that showed up as "blue." SWTOR isn't the only game where it did that either. In KOTOR Ajunta Pall's ghost was also "bluish." You can also find the ghosts of marka ragnos etc on Yavin. They too are Blueish. The same look as Marr.

 

I can find more screenshots for you if you don't want to take my word for it.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Rhyltran

[AkeroStar]

That's just the effect they went with. You haven't played the Sith Inquisitor story have you?

 

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/td0I6dI8MCQ/maxresdefault.jpg

 

There's plenty of sith ghosts in the story that showed up as "blue." SWTOR isn't the only game where it did that either. In KOTOR Ajunta Pall's ghost was also "bluish." You can also find the ghosts of marka ragnos etc on Yavin. They too are Blueish. The same look as Marr.

 

I can find more screenshots for you if you don't want to take my word for it.

 

No I havnt played as Sith Inquisitor. Alright, then the fact that image of Marr is blue is resolved. But that doesnt explain the rest. They are on Odessen, if Marr died he died on Zakuul. So how can his ghost travel/move so far? While all other dead Sith are like, bound to their tombs. Because he could be alive and just using the force to create an illusion of himself to Satele.

 

And why is a true believer in the Sith code, a ruthless warrior like Marr suddenly so concerned by the loss of life. He just doesnt seem like himself. Hes usually blunt, straight to the point, focused, undeterred and has never shown any care for life. Even in FE story when you chose to warn everyone on the ship, when you pick the light side option to abandon ship it sais "Darth Marr disapproves". And since even Wookieepedia sais that he basically has no emotions anymore why would he display concern at the end of Chapter 9? In the start of FE story one moment he doesnt like that people on the ship survived, that we warned them. But later hes like, concerned that many are apparently going to die, judging from what he said.

 

 

So if Marr died on Zakuul then someone is being an imposter, most likely Valkorion to manipulate Satele. Because according to all facts we have from games, movies and wookieepedia. Dead Sith are bound to their tombs. There has been no account where a Sith spirit could leave its tomb or even the planet its on. Yes I know, Marr doesnt have a tomb, so his spirit could be bound to his body instead. And I doubt Vaylin had Marr´s body dumped on the same planet the Alliance base is on. So, I suppose the real question here is, if Marr´s body is not on Odessen then how is his spirit there with Satele? Why does his personality seem to change? Imposter, possibly Valkorion himself.

 

Or hes alive, using the force to project an image of himself as stated before. And his near death encounter with Valkorion changed him a bit. So he actually cares for life at least a little now.

Edited October 25, 2015 by AkeroStar

[fovzwk]

Or hes alive, using the force to project an image of himself as stated before. And his near death encounter with Valkorion changed him a bit. So he actually cares for life at least a little now.

Or the actual death experience changed him a bit. If a near death experience can I suppose so could the real thing.

[Rhyltran]

No I havnt played as Sith Inquisitor. Alright, then the fact that image of Marr is blue is resolved. But that doesnt explain the rest. They are on Odessen, if Marr died he died on Zakuul. So how can his ghost travel/move so far? While all other dead Sith are like, bound to their tombs. Because he could be alive and just using the force to create an illusion of himself to Satele.

 

And why is a true believer in the Sith code, a ruthless warrior like Marr suddenly so concerned by the loss of life. He just doesnt seem like himself. Hes usually blunt, straight to the point, focused, undeterred and has never shown any care for life. Even in FE story when you chose to warn everyone on the ship, when you pick the light side option to abandon ship it sais "Darth Marr disapproves". And since even Wookieepedia sais that he basically has no emotions anymore why would he display concern at the end of Chapter 9? In the start of FE story one moment he doesnt like that people on the ship survived, that we warned them. But later hes like, concerned that many are apparently going to die, judging from what he said.

 

 

So if Marr died on Zakuul then someone is being an imposter, most likely Valkorion to manipulate Satele. Because according to all facts we have from games, movies and wookieepedia. Dead Sith are bound to their tombs. There has been no account where a Sith spirit could leave its tomb or even the planet its on. Yes I know, Marr doesnt have a tomb, so his spirit could be bound to his body instead. And I doubt Vaylin had Marr´s body dumped on the same planet the Alliance base is on. So, I suppose the real question here is, if Marr´s body is not on Odessen then how is his spirit there with Satele? Why does his personality seem to change? Imposter, possibly Valkorion himself.

 

Or hes alive, using the force to project an image of himself as stated before. And his near death encounter with Valkorion changed him a bit. So he actually cares for life at least a little now.

 

Kallig appears on Nox (the inquisitor's ship) when he is actually buried at the temple. He admits it takes him great strain to appear to him but he can appear to him nonetheless. In fact, you first encounter him in the tomb and he starts appearing to you with advice throughout the story. There's no reason to believe if Kallig could do it that Marr can't. In fact, it's a testament to marr's power that he can because most spirits can't. Kallig was very powerful back in his day which explains why he's capable of this.

 

He's concerned that they'll die for nothing. Marr is a pragmatist and he does care about the Empire. In fact, he's not as ambitious as most Sith and is annoyed when other sith's ambitions endanger the Empire. He felt that the Empire needed to change a great deal while beginning to work together. How many Sith would have trusted Satele Shan to begin with? He was never an ordinary Sith and it's partly why he's so well liked. He cares about the Empire and it's citizens. This doesn't make him "Not dark", however, as he'd be willing to destroy and crush anyone who gets in the Empire's way.

 

Always be careful when using Wookieepedia. Wookieepedia can be edited by anyone. It's okay to use it as a reference but remember Marr cares about the Empire and not having emotions makes no sense. The Sith code is all about passion. Not having passion would make him less of a Sith and a poor dark side user to boot. Plus his defiance and refusal to kneel was full of anger which is most definitely an emotion.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Rhyltran

[SithKoriandr]

No I havnt played as Sith Inquisitor. Alright, then the fact that image of Marr is blue is resolved. But that doesnt explain the rest. They are on Odessen, if Marr died he died on Zakuul. So how can his ghost travel/move so far? While all other dead Sith are like, bound to their tombs. Because he could be alive and just using the force to create an illusion of himself to Satele.

 

And why is a true believer in the Sith code, a ruthless warrior like Marr suddenly so concerned by the loss of life. He just doesnt seem like himself. Hes usually blunt, straight to the point, focused, undeterred and has never shown any care for life. Even in FE story when you chose to warn everyone on the ship, when you pick the light side option to abandon ship it sais "Darth Marr disapproves". And since even Wookieepedia sais that he basically has no emotions anymore why would he display concern at the end of Chapter 9? In the start of FE story one moment he doesnt like that people on the ship survived, that we warned them. But later hes like, concerned that many are apparently going to die, judging from what he said.

 

 

So if Marr died on Zakuul then someone is being an imposter, most likely Valkorion to manipulate Satele. Because according to all facts we have from games, movies and wookieepedia. Dead Sith are bound to their tombs. There has been no account where a Sith spirit could leave its tomb or even the planet its on. Yes I know, Marr doesnt have a tomb, so his spirit could be bound to his body instead. And I doubt Vaylin had Marr´s body dumped on the same planet the Alliance base is on. So, I suppose the real question here is, if Marr´s body is not on Odessen then how is his spirit there with Satele? Why does his personality seem to change? Imposter, possibly Valkorion himself.

 

Or hes alive, using the force to project an image of himself as stated before. And his near death encounter with Valkorion changed him a bit. So he actually cares for life at least a little now.

 

Obi Wan died on the Death Star then appeared on Dagoba and then on Endor. Ghosts can move planet to planet with ease

[RJMazz]

Are you sure?? I thought it was confirmed you had to be strong in the light side to become a ghost, if you watched some of the final episodes in "The Clone Wars" TV show, Yoda goes to learn the secret and it seems like again you have to be strong in the light from the questions they asked him.

 

 

There is probably other ways to become a ghost but it's always light side characters that have the ability to not be restricted. Revan, The Exile, Orgus Din, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin (Was redeemed), Luke all come to mind. Sith never have the full ability to travel around.

 

Ghosts after ghosts after ghosts after ghosts of Sith appear in KOTOR. BioWare may be just redefining canon, but there are definetely more ways.

[SithKoriandr]

Wait! When did Luke become a ghost?!

[LordViridis]

I find it weird that Marr would actually become a ghost. I was under the impression that sith who don't accept death linger on and sith that do don't. Marr stated multiple times that he didn't fear death, so why did he stay. It is possible that he didn't fear death for the reason that he knew he'd become a ghost but I find that unlikely. Of course he might have stayed because he felt that the Empire still needed him or for some other reason.

[AkeroStar]

Kallig appears on Nox (the inquisitor's ship) when he is actually buried at the temple. He admits it takes him great strain to appear to him but he can appear to him nonetheless. In fact, you first encounter him in the tomb and he starts appearing to you with advice throughout the story. There's no reason to believe if Kallig could do it that Marr can't. In fact, it's a testament to marr's power that he can because most spirits can't. Kallig was very powerful back in his day which explains why he's capable of this.

 

He's concerned that they'll die for nothing. Marr is a pragmatist and he does care about the Empire. In fact, he's not as ambitious as most Sith and is annoyed when other sith's ambitions endanger the Empire. He felt that the Empire needed to change a great deal while beginning to work together. How many Sith would have trusted Satele Shan to begin with? He was never an ordinary Sith and it's partly why he's so well liked. He cares about the Empire and it's citizens. This doesn't make him "Not dark", however, as he'd be willing to destroy and crush anyone who gets in the Empire's way.

 

Always be careful when using Wookieepedia. Wookieepedia can be edited by anyone. It's okay to use it as a reference but remember Marr cares about the Empire and not having emotions makes no sense. The Sith code is all about passion. Not having passion would make him less of a Sith and a poor dark side user to boot. Plus his defiance and refusal to kneel was full of anger which is most definitely an emotion.

 

 

Alright, well if moving from planet to planet as a ghost is a matter of power then it would be easy for Marr. No he isnt the strongest Sith in the galaxy but he is very strong. And yeah thats one reason I like him to, that he doesnt care about petty power grabs like some other greedy Sith (like Baras). The only thing he does care about, like youve said is the Empire. And yeah he does demonstrate emotions like hate and anger towards Valkorion. Perhaps what wookieepedia means by emotionless is that he doesnt show many emotions. The dark side is mostly about hate and anger and passion. All other emotions are kind of not involved.

 

But alright, I still think there could be a number of ways Marr could come back to life, or even still be alive.

 

I find it weird that Marr would actually become a ghost. I was under the impression that sith who don't accept death linger on and sith that do don't. Marr stated multiple times that he didn't fear death, so why did he stay. It is possible that he didn't fear death for the reason that he knew he'd become a ghost but I find that unlikely. Of course he might have stayed because he felt that the Empire still needed him or for some other reason.

 

It could be the other way around. That sith who fear death can not appear as ghosts/spirts after death. While sith like Marr who dont fear death can show themselves as ghosts/spirits.

[DAWUSS]

Indeed. I want Darth Marr to be alive. I think he is alive. Do I think Im wrong, well Im no know it all. But I have mentioned a lot of points and theories. So yes I could be wrong but I think its unlikely. If Im wrong and Marr is really dead, then he better come back to life at some point or I shall riot.

 

But really we can debate this forever, we have until start of 2016.

 

But one thing really bugs me. Doesnt anyone else get a hint of suspicion or such in those 2 scenes when Darth Marr supposedly shows himself as a force ghost? Yes Sith can learn that power. But Ive never seen a Sith appear like that or heard of it, it looks so Jedi like. Also I cant recall an account that mentions that Sith spirits can travel anywhere in the galaxy. Usually dead Sith can appear as a spirit around their tombs, but then their spirits also look very Sith like. Darth Bane for example in Star Wars Clone Wars. Darth Marr and Darth Bane, both Sith. Darth Marr was also a true believer in the Sith Code. Yet Darth Marr´s spirit looks so Jedi like and Bane´s looks very Sith like.

 

So that is more reasons I think Marr is alive and creates that illusion of himself to Satele. Or its Valkorion being an imposter.

 

Link to picture of Darth Bane´s spirit:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/e/e1/Darth_Bane_TCW.png/revision/latest?cb=20140701230520

 

Ajunta Pall in KOTOR

[Ruthless_Odin]

Well my Inquisitor is the ultimate ***** bastard of the galaxy. I really feel bad now because I'm RP-ing her agreeing with Valkorion's ideas, then I remembered Marr talking about 'you're the only one I really trust Darth Nox' but at the same time my Inq has always been power hungry. I don't even know anymore...

[lordnikolas]

Hes dead Lana and all the other force sensetives said they felt it. They felt him die, theres no leeway there you cant argue with that they felt the life leave his body.

 

Its over and done.

[DarthMetalJoey]

now is your chance bioware

 

make cartel shop ghost companions!

 

Revan

Marr

Malgus

Baras

 

LOL

[AkeroStar]

now is your chance bioware

 

make cartel shop ghost companions!

 

Revan

Marr

Malgus

Baras

 

LOL

 

Lol yes very funny. But who the heck would want Baras back, isch no thank you.

 

lordnikolas I disagree. Just because it looks like Darth Marr died does not mean that he did. There are a number of possibilities that Ive already brought up and explained on how he A, could have survived or B, could come back to life. The simple fact and truth is, we know to little to just say with 100% certainty that Darth Marr is dead or alive.

[Octoknightx]

now is your chance bioware

 

make cartel shop ghost companions!

 

Revan

Marr

Malgus

Baras

 

LOL

Y u no Jadus?