Spoilers! **Darth Marr´s Fate Discussion** KotFE

[AkeroStar]

But that can't be right if Marr's spirit can appear to Satele on a different planet from where he was killed. He was a true believer in the dark side, definitely not the light. Perhaps Satele summoned him to her for some reason?

 

Cough, or hes using the force to project an image of himself to speak with Satele from another planet.

 

But like I just said, some Sith in THIS era (big difference between the time of Star Wars I-VI and ingame) had learnt that ability. It is not locked like "Jedi only." Any force user can learn any power. The only thing that makes them good or evil is who uses them. Most powers that inflict injury like force choke are associated with the dark side. But really the force powers have no real affliction. Its just what people have come to see them as, aka point of view.

[Karkais]

But that can't be right if Marr's spirit can appear to Satele on a different planet from where he was killed. He was a true believer in the dark side, definitely not the light. Perhaps Satele summoned him to her for some reason?

 

As I just posted in above post, Tulak Hord's spirit appears on Yavin 4 ingame despite him having died and being entombed on Korriban.

 

Marka Ragnos was also entombed on Korriban, and was seen there as force ghost. His force ghost also appears on Yavin 4.

 

Get on with the picture. Story rules. Story wants Marr to appear on Odessen. He will appear there, rules be damned.

 

ps. And lets not forget the most obvious name, Vitiate. That guy gets around.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Karkais

[Morrolan]

'He's dead Jim'

[Karkais]

'He's dead Jim'

 

[Deshiel]

He has to be dead. There's no way he would act so "hippie" around Satele if he wasn't "unburdened"

[AkeroStar]

He has to be dead. There's no way he would act so "hippie" around Satele if he wasn't "unburdened"

 

Or he acts so calm because he knows that there is no point in thinking about Sith and Jedi rivalry, it wont do any good for anyone. This is a real time when the Empire, Republic, Sith and Jedi. They all have to work together. Besides, its kind of nice to see Darth Marr grow so much as a person that he can have a civil conversation with Satele and even an alliance in Shadow Of Revan. Its almost like those 2 are becoming sort of friends. Darth Marr has always been the most, evolved Sith. The one that takes no part in plots for more power or Sith infighting. His main and only goal has always been the safety of The Empire. Which is just one reason why he is my favorite Star Wars character ever.

Edited October 23, 2015 by AkeroStar

[Newyankalt]

But seriously OP I think you just want him to be alive, I'm pretty certain he is dead. Story wise I don't see what purpose it would be to keep him around and have him return now. Yeah he would make the empire better then lol Darth Acina ruling it but I don't think him being alive would make sense.

 

 

Satele likes him for some reason so we will see

[Morrolan]

I refuse to believe Marr is dead. He just can't be. Really hope he comes back in the future.

 

Yes he'll return as a force ghost as he did in the first part of kotfe.

[AkeroStar]

But seriously OP I think you just want him to be alive, I'm pretty certain he is dead. Story wise I don't see what purpose it would be to keep him around and have him return now. Yeah he would make the empire better then lol Darth Acina ruling it but I don't think him being alive would make sense.

 

 

Satele likes him for some reason so we will see

 

Of course I want him to be alive. Why else would I debate the issue. Present arguments and try to prove that he could be alive. Dig around in Star Wars wiki to find similar cases that support my arguments and theories.

 

I disagree that there is no purpose to keeping him alive story wise. As Ive stated before he would be an extremely powerful ally. A true experienced leader and military strategist. Think of all the resources, contacts and allies he could bring from the Empire. The player we play as ingame doesnt have any real command experience. Story wise there is a lot that can still involve Darth Marr. Things he could know about Valkorion, ways he could help defend the Empire from Arcaan. Even a way to get Valkorion out of our heads. I think your underestimating how much Darth Marr could offer. Hes a powerful Sith with much more knowledge and experience than our players. He knows more about the force then our character does. It is actually very likely that we need him to get Valkorion out of our heads. It is a matter of the force. Darth Marr was there when it happened. It is logical to assume that we will need the help of powerful force users to first get Valkorion out of our heads and then keep him from jumping into someone else. Right now the only powerful force users we have seen to chapter 9 is Satele, Lana and Darth Marr. And Im talking really powerful, not just every member of the Sith or Jedi Order.

[Karkais]

Satele likes him for some reason so we will see

 

Ever since SoR, most of the major characters seem to have gotten a lot more friendly with each other. Ingame reason its prolly meant to be about "fighting a common enemy". "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" and so on. Out-of-game reason is probably the 'one story-all classes' syndrome. I find it very disappointing as I have said ever since this started to happen in SoR.

 

In addition, Sith characters seem to have forgotten what it means to be a Sith. I know its mostly fallout from OSAC-syndrome, but it annoys me. Lana Beniko at times in KOTFE feels almost like a lightsider. She worries about the outlander, she worries that Vitiate is going to eat more planets, that outlanders actions are going to cause the former, she's a worrywart. At least in SoR she had a cold, ruthless side exemplified by her letting Theron get captured and 'worked on' on behalf of the mission. In KOTFE she seems to have nothing but a red saber.

(Edit: ok there was that one thing with the sun generator)

Edited October 23, 2015 by Karkais

[AkeroStar]

Ever since SoR, most of the major characters seem to have gotten a lot more friendly with each other. Ingame reason its prolly meant to be about "fighting a common enemy". "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" and so on. Out-of-game reason is probably the 'one story-all classes' syndrome. I find it very disappointing as I have said ever since this started to happen in SoR.

 

In addition, Sith characters seem to have forgotten what it means to be a Sith. I know its mostly fallout from OSAC-syndrome, but it annoys me. Lana Beniko at times in KOTFE feels almost like a lightsider. She worries about the outlander, she worries that Vitiate is going to eat more planets, that outlanders actions are going to cause the former, she's a worrywart. At least in SoR she had a cold, ruthless side exemplified by her letting Theron get captured and 'worked on' on behalf of the mission. In KOTFE she seems to have nothing but a red saber.

(Edit: ok there was that one thing with the sun generator)

 

I can agree that the sith characters have lost their touch a bit. Some dont seem as evil or well, sith ish as they should be. But that could also be because of Shadow of Revan. Like Fallen Empire now that was a story where the Republic and Empire had to work together. There was no room for rivalry's, grudges and old quarrels.

 

And yes Lana she does seem to nice to be a Sith. But all Sith arent that evil or bad. And its not that wrong for her to worry about Vitiate eating planets. Thats actually a normal concern. For all we know his next target could be Korriban. Hes a Sith and Korriban has a stronger connection to the dark side then almost any other planet.

 

But yeah anyways. I think its actually kind of nice to see some Sith and Jedi get along when the galaxy needs them to get along. Like Darth Marr and Satele. Just shows how evolved they both are. That they are not going to let the galaxy burn while they argue about old grudges.

 

But back to topic. After watching the throne room scene several times. Watching Valkorions lightning attacks hit first Darth Marr then Arcann. It is easy to see both attacks are just as big and just as strong. Arcann got up and walked away. So that just proves that Darth Marr isnt dead, if Arcann survived it so did Marr. Also, if you pay attention you will notice Darth Marr´s body is removed when Vaylin orders the guards to clear the room. Which could be that Vaylin has Marr put in carbonite or in prison. If Marr had died why bother remove his corpse for added privacy? Marr could still be conscious but just to weak and/or injured to move or do anything. Or he could be unconscious, but his subconscious could still listen to conversation. It is actually a medical fact that people in a coma can still hear things around them and remember them once out of the coma.

Edited October 23, 2015 by AkeroStar

[DAWUSS]

In addition, Sith characters seem to have forgotten what it means to be a Sith. I know its mostly fallout from OSAC-syndrome, but it annoys me. Lana Beniko at times in KOTFE feels almost like a lightsider. She worries about the outlander, she worries that Vitiate is going to eat more planets, that outlanders actions are going to cause the former, she's a worrywart. At least in SoR she had a cold, ruthless side exemplified by her letting Theron get captured and 'worked on' on behalf of the mission. In KOTFE she seems to have nothing but a red saber.

(Edit: ok there was that one thing with the sun generator)

 

I'm actually OK with this - Sith can be complex shades of gray rather than a 1-dimensional Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.

[Paulsutherland]

But back to topic. After watching the throne room scene several times. Watching Valkorions lightning attacks hit first Darth Marr then Arcann. It is easy to see both attacks are just as big and just as strong. Arcann got up and walked away. So that just proves that Darth Marr isnt dead, if Arcann survived it so did Marr. Also, if you pay attention you will notice Darth Marr´s body is removed when Vaylin orders the guards to clear the room. Which could be that Vaylin has Marr put in carbonite or in prison. If Marr had died why bother remove his corpse for added privacy? Marr could still be conscious but just to weak and/or injured to move or do anything. Or he could be unconscious, but his subconscious could still listen to conversation. It is actually a medical fact that people in a coma can still hear things around them and remember them once out of the coma.

 

Arcann is standing to the side of the throne. He's never in the old gits line of fire.

 

Accept it dude... he's deader than the dinosaurs.

 

That being said ... I'm all for bringing him back.

[AkeroStar]

Arcann is standing to the side of the throne. He's never in the old gits line of fire.

 

Accept it dude... he's deader than the dinosaurs.

 

That being said ... I'm all for bringing him back.

 

Arcann doesnt get hit by Valkorions attack to Darth Marr. When Arcann frees us he attacks Valkorion. Then he gets hit by Valkorions lightning. A hit just as big and bad as what Marr got, yet he walks away. So Marr must have survived to but just got knocked out.

[Rhyltran]

Arcann doesnt get hit by Valkorions attack to Darth Marr. When Arcann frees us he attacks Valkorion. Then he gets hit by Valkorions lightning. A hit just as big and bad as what Marr got, yet he walks away. So Marr must have survived to but just got knocked out.

 

Marr isn't as powerful as Arcann and Marr was terminally ill. He was already getting sick/weaker. If you listen to him closely he doesn't sound very healthy in the opening scenes. He's breathing really heavy, sounds tired, etc.

[AkeroStar]

Marr isn't as powerful as Arcann and Marr was terminally ill. He was already getting sick/weaker. If you listen to him closely he doesn't sound very healthy in the opening scenes. He's breathing really heavy, sounds tired, etc.

 

Darth Marr foresaw his own death. Which means he would know what would happen, who, when, where etc. He sais later in FE story that he didnt even know who Valkorion was until later. Which means that Marr couldnt die in that scene. But if he did it wasnt his true death, aka he will come back. It doesnt say anywhere that he was sick or weak. Not ingame or on wookieepedia. And he doesnt sound ill or tired. Thats just his voice, hes always sounded like that. Darth Marr has always been distinguished by his deep, focused, confident and dark voice. Hes got an epic voice actor.

[Rhyltran]

Darth Marr foresaw his own death. Which means he would know what would happen, who, when, where etc. He sais later in FE story that he didnt even know who Valkorion was until later. Which means that Marr couldnt die in that scene. But if he did it wasnt his true death, aka he will come back. It doesnt say anywhere that he was sick or weak. Not ingame or on wookieepedia. And he doesnt sound ill or tired. Thats just his voice, hes always sounded like that. Darth Marr has always been distinguished by his deep, focused, confident and dark voice. Hes got an epic voice actor.

 

Foreseeing your own death doesn't mean that you knew the exact circumstances. Remember when Anakin was seeing Padme die? He didn't know that he would be the cause or it'd even be related to the pregnancy. He just knew she was going to die. Marr could have had visions of his death without the specifics. He would know he'd die but not exactly how.

 

There's plenty of these moments in star wars. In fact, he refused the position of Emperor strictly because he knew he was going to die and that it was inevitable. This implies he knew it was going to happen relatively soon and he wanted to help the Empire as much as he could before dying.

 

"Darth Marr was a human male who was famous for never revealing his true face—the Dark Lord was perpetually encased in his personalized suit of battle armor, and rumor had it that the sight of Marr's visage was the reason Moff Xerxian committed suicide. Throughout his tenure on the Dark Council, Darth Marr's body slowly transformed as a result of immersion in the dark side of the Force, and by the time war broke out again with the Republic the Sith Lord was aware that his body would not last much longer. "

 

SWTOR Encyclopedia. "The sith lord was aware this his body would not last much longer." He was dying already. Also no his voice does change from SOR and Makeb. I leveled many characters through it and one more just as I went into KOTFE. His voice is way more tired. More ragged. He sounds like he's really struggling by KOTFE which is confirmed in the SWTOR Encyclopedia. The man was dying.

 

In fact, his body had become so deformed he once took off his mask which resulted in a moff committing suicide. That means his face is pretty bad. He couldn't even remove his suit.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Rhyltran

[DarthTyranid]

I do not for one second believe that force ghost is actually Darth Marr.

 

"A pity so many of them will have to die"???

 

Marr never hesitated to sacrifice before. This is some imposter/trick of another force user. Satele Shan is not the brightest Jedi in the galaxy either, so not surprising she could be fooled.

[PoliteAssasin]

Darth Marr foresaw his own death. Which means he would know what would happen, who, when, where etc. He sais later in FE story that he didnt even know who Valkorion was until later. Which means that Marr couldnt die in that scene. But if he did it wasnt his true death, aka he will come back. It doesnt say anywhere that he was sick or weak. Not ingame or on wookieepedia. And he doesnt sound ill or tired. Thats just his voice, hes always sounded like that. Darth Marr has always been distinguished by his deep, focused, confident and dark voice. Hes got an epic voice actor.

 

Sure, Marr saw his own death. Supposedly down to the last detail. But one of the things Valkorion keeps reminding the player, especially when it comes to the scions, is that they aren't bound by fate. This is perfectly illustrated with Marr meeting his end before he expected to.

[AkeroStar]

Foreseeing your own death doesn't mean that you knew the exact circumstances. Remember when Anakin was seeing Padme die? He didn't know that he would be the cause or it'd even be related to the pregnancy. He just knew she was going to die. Marr could have had visions of his death without the specifics. He would know he'd die but not exactly how.

 

There's plenty of these moments in star wars. In fact, he refused the position of Emperor strictly because he knew he was going to die and that it was inevitable. This implies he knew it was going to happen relatively soon and he wanted to help the Empire as much as he could before dying.

 

"Darth Marr was a human male who was famous for never revealing his true face—the Dark Lord was perpetually encased in his personalized suit of battle armor, and rumor had it that the sight of Marr's visage was the reason Moff Xerxian committed suicide. Throughout his tenure on the Dark Council, Darth Marr's body slowly transformed as a result of immersion in the dark side of the Force, and by the time war broke out again with the Republic the Sith Lord was aware that his body would not last much longer. "

 

SWTOR Encyclopedia. "The sith lord was aware this his body would not last much longer." He was dying already. Also no his voice does change from SOR and Makeb. I leveled many characters through it and one more just as I went into KOTFE. His voice is way more tired. More ragged. He sounds like he's really struggling by KOTFE which is confirmed in the SWTOR Encyclopedia. The man was dying.

 

In fact, his body had become so deformed he once took off his mask which resulted in a moff committing suicide. That means his face is pretty bad. He couldn't even remove his suit.

 

Alright you have a point. Just because he saw his own death does not mean he knows everything that would happen. He could have just seen that moment. But I havnt noticed any voice difference. Im currently getting my Jedi through SOR so maybe I will notice it then. There are a number of accounts where Sith and Jedi have managed to cheat death and come back to life.The one that would serve Darth Marr best is a ritual I found on Wookieepedia. "Darth Andeddu created the Transfer essence ability which essentially was a form of immortality.He was able to return to life in 137 ABY when he drained his servant's spirit back into his corpse."

 

It is 100% possible that Darth Marr could have done the same thing, that everything was prepared and ready. I still believe hes alive. But if he really is dead, it is entirely possible for him to come back to life.

 

Source:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Immortality

 

But if he was dying, and if hes really dead now. It could be possible for him to come back to life with restored health. Doesnt anyone wonder how Sidious lived so long? He was an old man by the time of Star Wars III. He had clones and he used a power called Dark Transfer or Essence Transfer to move his soul, spirit, his sense of himself to a new body when needed to.

 

Sure, Marr saw his own death. Supposedly down to the last detail. But one of the things Valkorion keeps reminding the player, especially when it comes to the scions, is that they aren't bound by fate. This is perfectly illustrated with Marr meeting his end before he expected to.

 

Nothing is certain. As you say, that I can also agree to. As Star Wars shows us many times seeing one part of the future can mean many things.

 

 

I do not for one second believe that force ghost is actually Darth Marr.

 

"A pity so many of them will have to die"???

 

Marr never hesitated to sacrifice before. This is some imposter/trick of another force user. Satele Shan is not the brightest Jedi in the galaxy either, so not surprising she could be fooled.

 

Agreed. And one way I can support that is that Valkorion time and again shows himself as an illusion to us. Why cant Darth Marr project an image of himself to Satele like Valkiorion did? Yes that would mean he has to be alive to do it. But even worse, why couldnt that spirit at the end of Chapter 9 be Valkorion himself. Considering how powerful he is he could be able to fool Satele. Maybe she might sense that something was wrong, shes after all the descendant of powerful Bastila Shan. But I do still think its possible for Valkorion to fool Satele for a time. Force Illusion is a power any Sith or Jedi can use. Darth Marr could have used it, Valkorion does use it during the FE story. So I dont see why it would be so impossible for that spirit/ghost to be either an illusion Darth Marr creates from where ever he is, or Valkorion himself being an imposter.

[Joluka]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Darth Marr is not stronger than any of the Force-using player characters, why would you think that? He has a better brain for sure, at least he's smarter than the Knight and Inquisitor, but he's definitely not as strong as any of them.

 

I don't recall him ever doing anything remotely close to eating 5 Force ghosts, healing a deathly illness that can kill the healer and surviving, defeating the Voice of the Emperor, or defeating the Voice of the Emperor empowered by the dark side entity Sel-Makor. He's really strong, yes, and he'd give the Force users a fight, but he's not better than them.

 

Now, I do love the guy. I want him to be dead, though, so we can bring him back to life with a costly Dark Side ritual. Maybe one that sacrifices one of your companions' lives to bring him back.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Joluka

[Karkais]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Darth Marr is not stronger than any of the Force-using player characters, why would you think that?

 

Because, you know, fanboy-ism.

 

It is 100% possible that Darth Marr could have done the same thing, that everything was prepared and ready. I still believe hes alive. But if he really is dead, it is entirely possible for him to come back to life.

 

Yes, it is possible. Everything is possible. But it was clearly not the intent of the storytellers..

Edited October 24, 2015 by Karkais

[Shayddow]

The only way I see him "coming back" in any form, is via the SI, who possibly would be able to channel his ghost.

 

He appeared the same way to Satele Shan as other force ghosts have in StarWars and SWTOR lore, and although it disappoints me greatly, I think that was his end. It's too bad. He would have made a good leader for the Sith.

 

Although if he had survived, history might be different - Kaan's "brotherhood" might not have arisen, no Darth Bane - and... no Sidious, no Darth Vader.... the galaxy would be much different if he had survived and made the changes to Sith philosophy post whateverhappensintheend to Zakuul.

[AkeroStar]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Darth Marr is not stronger than any of the Force-using player characters, why would you think that? He has a better brain for sure, at least he's smarter than the Knight and Inquisitor, but he's definitely not as strong as any of them.

 

I don't recall him ever doing anything remotely close to eating 5 Force ghosts, healing a deathly illness that can kill the healer and surviving, defeating the Voice of the Emperor, or defeating the Voice of the Emperor empowered by the dark side entity Sel-Makor. He's really strong, yes, and he'd give the Force users a fight, but he's not better than them.

 

Now, I do love the guy. I want him to be dead, though, so we can bring him back to life with a costly Dark Side ritual. Maybe one that sacrifices one of your companions' lives to bring him back.

 

 

Well later in the game it is possible we do get stronger than him. But lets not forget that Sith Warriors start the game as puny acolytes. Marr could have annihilated us with one wave of his hand back then. And yes we might achieve more great things. But lets still remember how many battles he won, how many planets he took for the Empire. We didnt do any of that. Maybe were stronger in the force, but Im pretty sure that hes better in combat.

 

And ok that bring him back with a dark side ritual, sounds pretty cool. But I still think hes alive, so Im going to keep arguing and proving why and how, which I already have a lot. Until the producers themselves announce that Marr is dead for real.

 

Because, you know, fanboy-ism.

 

 

Yes, it is possible. Everything is possible. But it was clearly not the intent of the storytellers..

 

As far as we know. There are plenty of plot twists that can happen in chapter X and after. For example, Valkorion could be planning to take the player as his new body. Which is actually possible, feels like that since he manipulates us and pretty much makes us do his will. He twists and turns everything so it seems like what were doing is in the galaxy´s best interest. But really were kind of just helping him. Once Arcann is gone he will just have a new empire to rule. Hes actually in control of the alliance were making since he manipulates us to agree with him.

 

 

The only way I see him "coming back" in any form, is via the SI, who possibly would be able to channel his ghost.

 

He appeared the same way to Satele Shan as other force ghosts have in StarWars and SWTOR lore, and although it disappoints me greatly, I think that was his end. It's too bad. He would have made a good leader for the Sith.

 

Although if he had survived, history might be different - Kaan's "brotherhood" might not have arisen, no Darth Bane - and... no Sidious, no Darth Vader.... the galaxy would be much different if he had survived and made the changes to Sith philosophy post whateverhappensintheend to Zakuul.

 

Yes he does show up as a ghost figure. But as its been stated before, we dont know if that is really Marr as a ghost. It could be an illusion he creates of himself, like Valkorion does to have a conversation with us. Or it could be Valkorion being an imposter.

 

Honestly until we get more facts all we can do is draw the best possible conclusion from what little we know. I think it is entierly possible that Darth Marr survived Valkorions attack. I can repost the several ways he could have survived that if you like.

 

 

 

Marr could have used Force Barrier to defend himself against the biggest blows of Valkorions lightning attack. But some still hit him since his armor was literally smoking and you could see some electricity moving around on/in him.

 

Darth Marr´s armor could have been made of a material that was resistant to electrical currents. So his armor would get hit and electrocuted. But it would not harm Darth Marr. So only the blast himself pushed him away, knocked him down and knocked him out.

 

“Darth Plagueis also implied that the users' abilities with Force Lightning would grow even stronger when subjected to their own attack.“

 

Couldnt that mean that Darth Marr would be able to resist Force Lightning and have built of a sort of biological defense to it? That hes less susceptible to being attacked by Force Lightning. Since Darth Marr is one of the Sith who can use Force Lightning. Over Darth Marr´s years he has very likely been attacked by Force Lightning before. So maybe after all this time hes built up a sort of resistance to being attacked by it.

 

After watching the throne room scene several times you can notice some things. If you pay attention you will notice Darth Marr´s body is removed when Vaylin orders the guards to clear the room. Which could be that Vaylin has Marr put in carbonite or in prison. If Marr had died why bother remove his corpse for added privacy? Marr could still be conscious but just to weak and/or injured to move or do anything. Or he could be unconscious, but his subconscious could still listen to conversation. It is actually a medical fact that people in a coma can still hear things around them and remember them once out of the coma.

 

So when Valkorion attacked him, maybe Darth Marr was just knocked out and possibly injured. So, nope I still stand by that I believe hes alive. Either on some planet or in carbonite prison.

 

Source:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning

“Due to the fact that Force lightning was, at its core, simply electricity generated by the dark side, it could be grounded with any material that was resistant to electrical currents.“

[lokdron]

Arcann doesnt get hit by Valkorions attack to Darth Marr. When Arcann frees us he attacks Valkorion. Then he gets hit by Valkorions lightning. A hit just as big and bad as what Marr got, yet he walks away. So Marr must have survived to but just got knocked out.

 

The denial is strong in this one.