4.0 changes. Why? Just why...

[Grimsblood]

This has always sort of been an issue with the procs. It's even more serious for burst rotations that run on a 10.5 second period (e.g. Fury, Lightning), since they essentially sit on a razor edge between "godlike" and "useless" relic procs. Even on a dummy.

 

Let's assume you get perfect uptime out of every 30 second window, and you are able to hit the relic exactly on CD, and this somehow works out precisely with your rotation period, the cycles in the fight, mechanics, other cooldowns, etc. So, the absolute best the BA relic can ever be, even in theory. How much disruption on your SA proc windows would you need to see to make it worse than this hypothetically optimal BA relic?

 

37.4% In other words, every time your SA relic procs (once every 23 seconds!), you would need to be doing literally zero DPS for almost half the proc window in order to make the BA relic a superior choice. Imagine fudging this a bit to translate "literally zero DPS" into "severely degraded DPS" by increasing the percentage of downtime per proc window and you have a more realistic computation, but still.

 

I think the only fight which has that much rotational disruption is the Core burn on Revan HM for a class that lacks physics immunity, but the Core burn also lacks any uninterrupted 30 second windows, so the BA relic is pretty bad too. Maybe it would be BiS for a gunslinger though, since they get two uninterrupted windows over the course of a high-60s kill. Hard to say.

 

 

 

Well, actually what I wonder is if power isn't even the right way to go anymore. Every ounce of crit you stack is pure auto-crit, double-counted surge goodness during zen. I don't know if that's enough to make it BiS, but it's a thought.

 

 

 

I'm all about gearing for live fights rather than dummies, but color me skeptical on this one. :-)

 

I am on myphone, so no fancy editing for me. I have thought about the crit option too. But to be honest, I don't remember what crit relics are available or if there are crit adrenals anymore.

 

This new crit/surge thing changes the way we have to approach relics/adrenals/CD'S usage imo. Is there a DR on crit? If so, what is it? Would running 2 proc relics with a crit adrenal and praying for a Zen window with inspiration and the crit buff and the sage one be ideal ( ot necessarily asking, more like throwing out an idea newer idea or way to think of this)?

 

If I remember, the difference between mainstat augs and power was like .03? Or some small like that. Mainstat (or "mastery" .....I guess) would be more beneficial due to its contribution to crit.

[KeyboardNinja]

I am on myphone, so no fancy editing for me. I have thought about the crit option too. But to be honest, I don't remember what crit relics are available or if there are crit adrenals anymore.

 

There is an activated crit relic (same value as BA), but no proc'ing crit relic. Crit adrenals do exist.

 

This new crit/surge thing changes the way we have to approach relics/adrenals/CD'S usage imo. Is there a DR on crit? If so, what is it? Would running 2 proc relics with a crit adrenal and praying for a Zen window with inspiration and the crit buff and the sage one be ideal ( ot necessarily asking, more like throwing out an idea newer idea or way to think of this)?

 

Crit is asymptotic to 30%. There are some reports that surge is as well, which seems incorrect (the old asymptote was 50%). The rate of return on crit and surge has been reported as 0.8, which is to say that it takes 80 points of crit rating starting from 0 rating at level 65 to reach your first 1%. The half value for critical rating is 1063.

 

Not sure if that's what you meant by DR, but hopefully it's enough information to conceptualize the value of the stat over different budgets.

 

If I remember, the difference between mainstat augs and power was like .03? Or some small like that. Mainstat (or "mastery" .....I guess) would be more beneficial due to its contribution to crit.

 

Mastery has such a microscopic impact on crit (and no impact on surge) that it's almost an irrelevant stat now. No one has any mastery-increasing talents, so its value is just enormously, hilariously lower than everything else. Of all of your DPS-increasing stats, the only one with lower value is accuracy > 684.

[Grimsblood]

There is an activated crit relic (same value as BA), but no proc'ing crit relic. Crit adrenals do exist.

 

 

 

Crit is asymptotic to 30%. There are some reports that surge is as well, which seems incorrect (the old asymptote was 50%). The rate of return on crit and surge has been reported as 0.8, which is to say that it takes 80 points of crit rating starting from 0 rating at level 65 to reach your first 1%. The half value for critical rating is 1063.

 

Not sure if that's what you meant by DR, but hopefully it's enough information to conceptualize the value of the stat over different budgets.

 

 

 

Mastery has such a microscopic impact on crit (and no impact on surge) that it's almost an irrelevant stat now. No one has any mastery-increasing talents, so its value is just enormously, hilariously lower than everything else. Of all of your DPS-increasing stats, the only one with lower value is accuracy > 684.

 

Ok. Has there been any work down in calculating the DPS gains from crit Relics vs Power? Also, the same comparison done for classes with auto-crit talents?

[Gyronamics]

I checked - there are similar crit damage changes on Lightning sorc, Pyrotech PT and Concealment operative. With last 2 it can't be justified with auto crits as they have none. I guess they felt that overall crit change will make these abilities do too much crit damage. That raises another question - why both merc specs or AP PT still has 30%. Why snipers have 30%? Not that they are affected by crit in a different way...

 

I heard someone trying to use Merc as part of their argument.

 

For 4.0 Merc Innovative Ordinance had many damage perks stripped out of the spec. This was very deliberate to lower its damage.

 

Yes it still has 30% crit on a few abilities. And?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Gyronamics

[WiththeForc]

Eh, I wouldn't necessarily call this a nerf, just a small change. I haven't parsed anything yet, but my friend is parsing at 5.7k with some comm gear when he was parsing 5-5.1 pre 4.0, and he's running under 110% acc so probably had some misses in there

[WiththeForc]

Opener for anni.

dual saber throw, force charge, battering assault, annihilate, force rend, deadly saber, rupture, ravage, annihilate.

So far still parsing and getting gear. will post more about anni soon

 

Also don't think I agree with this opener. You're wasting devious wounds buff while applying the dots. Personally think the opener is something like charge + DS, BA, Rupture, Rend + buffs, Annihilate, Ravage, dst (with proc), vicious slash (assault if 4 free rage hasn't been generated), rupture + ds

[jokas]

I don't understand why people are spouting doom and gloom with the 4.0 Annihilation Changes.

 

These changes make the spec 100% better.

 

Force Rend now replaces Force Charge's old role. Now, you will not leap BACKWARDS in the Core portion of Revan, which was suicidal.

 

The new addition that makes Vicious Slash deal more damage on a proc helps for filler, which the rotation now has room for.

 

Surge changes were because Auto-Crits got buffed out the ***, now your Crit% + Surge% == Surge% for Auto Crits If i read the changes right.

 

I dont know if you saw. but now the dot that force rend puts out only lasts 9 seconds. the cooldown for this ability is 12 seconds. thats 3 seconds of downtime. compared to able to have you dot on it consistantly. as for force charge in the revan fight. if you knew what you were doing it was beneficial. hitting cloak of pain increased your damage output when being right. 800 damage a second. with the self heals it wasnt suicidal if u know what ur doing. as for viscous slash it is a horrible ability even with the auto crit.

[Grimsblood]

I dont know if you saw. but now the dot that force rend puts out only lasts 9 seconds. the cooldown for this ability is 12 seconds. thats 3 seconds of downtime. compared to able to have you dot on it consistantly. as for force charge in the revan fight. if you knew what you were doing it was beneficial. hitting cloak of pain increased your damage output when being right. 800 damage a second. with the self heals it wasnt suicidal if u know what ur doing. as for viscous slash it is a horrible ability even with the auto crit.

 

How long did it take you to wind up and get into the old rotation? How tight was the Focus generation? They simply turned Force melt into a higher damage replacement for Force Leap. This frees up leap to be a positional tool, smooths out the rotation and with the crit changes zen now does a lot more damage.

[jokas]

Also don't think I agree with this opener. You're wasting devious wounds buff while applying the dots. Personally think the opener is something like charge + DS, BA, Rupture, Rend + buffs, Annihilate, Ravage, dst (with proc), vicious slash (assault if 4 free rage hasn't been generated), rupture + ds

 

Yes im still trying to get the rotation down correctly. also applying all three stacks of deadly saber right away isnt a great idea. the dot refreshes when you apply a new stack. so its best to try to spread them out a little bit to keep the dot on longer. dot only lasts 6 seconds. cooldown is 12. the goal is to try to keep your dots on consistly. pushing 5100 dps now on my parse without bloodthirst or adrenals. Have to run a little over 600 alacrity to get force rend down to 11 second cooldown. that way only 2 seconds of downtime. still working things out though

[WiththeForc]

Yes im still trying to get the rotation down correctly. also applying all three stacks of deadly saber right away isnt a great idea. the dot refreshes when you apply a new stack. so its best to try to spread them out a little bit to keep the dot on longer. dot only lasts 6 seconds. cooldown is 12. the goal is to try to keep your dots on consistly. pushing 5100 dps now on my parse without bloodthirst or adrenals. Have to run a little over 600 alacrity to get force rend down to 11 second cooldown. that way only 2 seconds of downtime. still working things out though

 

Not sure what ya mean. With the rotation i proposed, you get an extra gcd of 2 stack DS since Rend doesn't use a stack, then you apply the 3rd stack on annihilate. So with using all your buffs right before annihilate, you'll hit for a massive autocrit annihilate, then have the next 4.5 sec of 5% extra dot damage with all dots on the target. Your rotation is doing the same delay with ravage, but 5 gcds later than mine.

Edited October 22, 2015 by WiththeForc

[jokas]

Yes im still trying to get the rotation down correctly. also applying all three stacks of deadly saber right away isnt a great idea. the dot refreshes when you apply a new stack. so its best to try to spread them out a little bit to keep the dot on longer. dot only lasts 6 seconds. cooldown is 12. the goal is to try to keep your dots on consistly. pushing 5100 dps now on my parse without bloodthirst or adrenals. Have to run a little over 600 alacrity to get force rend down to 11 second cooldown. that way only 2 seconds of downtime. still working things out though

 

Well i was able to solo the heroic 2+ with my mara and lana as heals. parsed at 7.6k during a couple of the fights. annihilate is hitting for 20k+. Ramp up time for my rotation is 8-9 seconds.

[jokas]

Not sure what ya mean. You're not gunna have 100% uptime on DS. Rupture's the only dot that will be 100%. With that rotation, you get an extra gcd of 2 stack DS since Rend doesn't use a stack, then you apply the 3rd stack on annihilate. Your rotation is literally doing the same thing with ravage, but applying ds 5 gcds later than mine. So with using all your buffs right before annihilate, you'll hit for a massive autocrit annihilate, then have the next 4.5 sec of 5% extra dot damage with all dots on the target

 

Every time u hit someone with a melee attack it adds a stack and resets the 6 second timer on the dot of deadly saber. you can have deadly saber dot up 100% of the time by putting a few abilities in between adding the stacks. by running the 600 alacrity u now only have 2 seonds of downtime for force rend. ive never had a rage/focus problem with anni. even during fights with not using the force charge ie. revan core. currently using the opened of dual saber throw-force charge- deadly saber- short fuse- battering assault- annihilate-force rend- beserk/zen- rupture- ravage- dual saber throw

[Mordresh]

The change to Force charge sucks but Annihilation feels kind of stronger to me than it did before, at least in PvP.

[WiththeForc]

Every time u hit someone with a melee attack it adds a stack and resets the 6 second timer on the dot of deadly saber. you can have deadly saber dot up 100% of the time by putting a few abilities in between adding the stacks. by running the 600 alacrity u now only have 2 seonds of downtime for force rend. ive never had a rage/focus problem with anni. even during fights with not using the force charge ie. revan core. currently using the opened of dual saber throw-force charge- deadly saber- short fuse- battering assault- annihilate-force rend- beserk/zen- rupture- ravage- dual saber throw

 

Yes, I know that, but like I said, Rend doesn't add a stack, unless they changed that in 4.0 and I don't know about it. Now with that rotation you aren't getting your third stack till 3 sec after devious wounds from annihilate and again, completely wasting the buff by having to apply Rend and rupture after using annihilate

[jokas]

Yes, I know that, but like I said, Rend doesn't add a stack, unless they changed that in 4.0 and I don't know about it. Now with that rotation you aren't getting your third stack till 3 sec after devious wounds from annihilate and again, completely wasting the buff by having to apply Rend and rupture after using annihilate[/quote

 

the point is to add a ability that doesnt add a stack for a reason. doing this keeps deadly saber up 100% of the time. So far i can keep deadly saber up 100% and rupture up 100% and force rend only down for 2 seconds. when you hit deadly saber you are giving a dot that last 6 seconds. so if you wait a few seconds in between adding another stack to it you can keep the dot up longer, so you apply 2 stacks then do an ability that doesnt add a stack, then add the final stack, it will be up 100% of the time, by the time the 3rd stack ends deadly saber is off cooldown,( my cooldown is 11 seconds) not the 12.

[jokas]

Yes, I know that, but like I said, Rend doesn't add a stack, unless they changed that in 4.0 and I don't know about it. Now with that rotation you aren't getting your third stack till 3 sec after devious wounds from annihilate and again, completely wasting the buff by having to apply Rend and rupture after using annihilate

 

Also there is a delay when activating buffs. so you want to activate beserk/zen at 2 stacks of deadly saber, and force rend just applied, after activating zen/beserk you want to hit rupture because deadly saber and rend do more damage than rupture. why waste a tick of zen/beserk on a weaker ability,

[TheRealVeranor]

Not to derail the thread from the initial topic, but does anyone know why they moved the Merciless Slash utility that reduced its CD by 3 seconds to combat?

 

I'm finding this is more of a debilitating factor when I'm trying to figure out a new rotation. Not Leap or Melt in this instance, although the changes to Force Melt was a shocker.

 

Is there a site that explains these changes? I'm curious what their take on this was. Maybe that will help me understand what their vision of the spec was vs. what we are doing, and help me adjust.

[WiththeForc]

Yes, I know that, but like I said, Rend doesn't add a stack, unless they changed that in 4.0 and I don't know about it. Now with that rotation you aren't getting your third stack till 3 sec after devious wounds from annihilate and again, completely wasting the buff by having to apply Rend and rupture after using annihilate[/quote

 

the point is to add a ability that doesnt add a stack for a reason. doing this keeps deadly saber up 100% of the time. So far i can keep deadly saber up 100% and rupture up 100% and force rend only down for 2 seconds. when you hit deadly saber you are giving a dot that last 6 seconds. so if you wait a few seconds in between adding another stack to it you can keep the dot up longer, so you apply 2 stacks then do an ability that doesnt add a stack, then add the final stack, it will be up 100% of the time, by the time the 3rd stack ends deadly saber is off cooldown,( my cooldown is 11 seconds) not the 12.

 

I don't know how else I can say this without repeating it. Rend does not add a ds stack. Let's go through the whole rotation:

 

Mine: Charge-DS-BA (1st stack added)- rupture (2nd stack added), Rend (no stack added, so still at two stacks)- buffs- annihilate (3rd stack added, devious wounds gained for 4.5 sec) - ravage (after ravage is finished devious wounds falls off)- dst- vicious slash/assault (at the end of this gcd rupture falls off) - rupture + DS.

 

Yours: dual saber throw, force charge, battering assault, annihilate (4.5 sec of devious wounds with no dots on target), force rend (3 sec worth of devious wounds buff), deadly saber, rupture (1st stack of DS applied, 1.5 sec of devious wounds buff), ravage (2nd stack of DS added)

 

Also yours: dual saber throw-force charge- deadly saber- short fuse- battering assault (1st ds stack added)- annihilate (2nd DS stack added, 4.5 sec of devious wounds)-force rend (gets 3 sec of devious wounds)- beserk/zen- rupture (3rd DS stack added, 1.5 sec of devious wounds)- ravage- dual saber throw

 

All three rotations use a move to prolong DS at 2 stacks, but mine does so while making much more efficient use of devious wounds buff

[jokas]

 

I don't know how else I can say this without repeating it. Rend does not add a ds stack. Let's go through the whole rotation:

 

Mine: Charge-DS-BA (1st stack added)- rupture (2nd stack added), Rend (no stack added, so still at two stacks)- buffs- annihilate (3rd stack added, devious wounds gained for 4.5 sec) - ravage (after ravage is finished devious wounds falls off)- dst- vicious slash/assault (at the end of this gcd rupture falls off) - rupture + DS.

 

Yours: dual saber throw, force charge, battering assault, annihilate (4.5 sec of devious wounds with no dots on target), force rend (3 sec worth of devious wounds buff), deadly saber, rupture (1st stack of DS applied, 1.5 sec of devious wounds buff), ravage (2nd stack of DS added)

 

Also yours: dual saber throw-force charge- deadly saber- short fuse- battering assault (1st ds stack added)- annihilate (2nd DS stack added, 4.5 sec of devious wounds)-force rend (gets 3 sec of devious wounds)- beserk/zen- rupture (3rd DS stack added, 1.5 sec of devious wounds)- ravage- dual saber throw

 

All three rotations use a move to prolong DS at 2 stacks, but mine does so while making much more efficient use of devious wounds buff

 

Well like i said before. im still working through the rotation. just pointing out that you can have deadly saber dot and rupture up 100%. Also I dont change my utilities before a fight. i have 1 set of utilities that works for me all the time, i dont use the charge to get the 30 stacks( for me not useful and dont always have time to use charge before a fight) I know that rend doesnt add a stack of ds. I have been working with the rotation just by parseing and watching the numbers, currently 1mill hp in 3 min 10 seconds. But to repeat myself. im still trying to figure out the rotation. The reason ive been using annihilate early is for some reason it crits and hits extremely hard in the opener if used early. not sure if this happens all the time. but its been hitting for 18k to 20k. Would like to talk in mumble or ts. Still playing with numbers and trying to figure it out. due to patch notes not including the changes i havent really been able to really figure everything out that has changed.

[Lodinn]

Thing about FC is that it granted incredible movement, it was almost all i loved about anni so much and why it was (was :() my favorite dps spec in the game.

 

It would be FAR batter for me if FC would not generate or use any range and be just a pure movement ability with 0-30m range and some lowish dmg comparable to that of a basic filler. It'll still force it be a movement ability instead of a rotational filler, but a better one. Mad Dash is so far from compensating for this cause given its cooldown it's purely situational...

 

And hey, nice to hear about 5.7k parses ^^ Think 6k is a new baseline for 4.0

[Katendal]

I don't understand why people are spouting doom and gloom with the 4.0 Annihilation Changes.

 

Force Rend now replaces Force Charge's old role. Now, you will not leap BACKWARDS in the Core portion of Revan, which was suicidal.

 

 

 

Surge changes were because Auto-Crits got buffed out the ***, now your Crit% + Surge% == Surge% for Auto Crits If i read the changes right.

 

 

The leap backwards on the core was epic! almost like having hold the line, you dont have to run out on pull like all non trooper classes, you just force leap. I am really really going to miss not leaping backwards on the core.

[Katendal]

Thing about FC is that it granted incredible movement, it was almost all i loved about anni so much and why it was (was :() my favorite dps spec in the game.

 

It would be FAR batter for me if FC would not generate or use any range and be just a pure movement ability with 0-30m range and some lowish dmg comparable to that of a basic filler. It'll still force it be a movement ability instead of a rotational filler, but a better one. Mad Dash is so far from compensating for this cause given its cooldown it's purely situational...

 

And hey, nice to hear about 5.7k parses ^^ Think 6k is a new baseline for 4.0

 

there are already 7k pt parses posted, so 6k would kind of suck

[Diviciacus]

Not to derail the thread from the initial topic, but does anyone know why they moved the Merciless Slash utility that reduced its CD by 3 seconds to combat?

 

Did they really? That doesn't even make sense; Merciless Slash is Watchman-specific. But by the same token, I was wondering why Merciless slash was taking so long to come off CD.

[Vodrin]

 

Well like i said before. im still working through the rotation. just pointing out that you can have deadly saber dot and rupture up 100%. Also I dont change my utilities before a fight. i have 1 set of utilities that works for me all the time, i dont use the charge to get the 30 stacks( for me not useful and dont always have time to use charge before a fight) I know that rend doesnt add a stack of ds. I have been working with the rotation just by parseing and watching the numbers, currently 1mill hp in 3 min 10 seconds. But to repeat myself. im still trying to figure out the rotation. The reason ive been using annihilate early is for some reason it crits and hits extremely hard in the opener if used early. not sure if this happens all the time. but its been hitting for 18k to 20k. Would like to talk in mumble or ts. Still playing with numbers and trying to figure it out. due to patch notes not including the changes i havent really been able to really figure everything out that has changed.

 

If you are using dual saber throw prior to your first annihilate, it will always crit. I think for the purposes of a boss fight that getting rend off first will maximize DPS, but for PvP (where I do on occasion play annihilation) I think you need to prioritize annihilate as getting the cooldown on it minimized as quickly as possible is of so much importance with the amount of target switching that goes on.

 

And in response to the merciless slash question, I still have it at a base 12 second cooldown on my sentinel, same as prior to 4.0. This means that it has a 6 second cooldown with full stacks, same as prior to 4.0.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Vodrin

[Diviciacus]

 

If you are using dual saber throw prior to your first annihilate, it will always crit. I think for the purposes of a boss fight that getting rend off first will maximize DPS, but for PvP (where I do on occasion play annihilation) I think you need to prioritize annihilate as getting the cooldown on it minimized as quickly as possible is of so much importance with the amount of target switching that goes on.

 

And in response to the merciless slash question, I still have it at a base 12 second cooldown on my sentinel, same as prior to 4.0. This means that it has a 6 second cooldown with full stacks, same as prior to 4.0.

 

How? It's unlikely the Mind Sear/Pulverize buff has been proc'd solely from the application of Force Rend/Melt, which is the only DoT tick which has happened that early in the opener.

 

As to Merciless Slash/Annhilate, I believe the poster I originally quoted (I was on my phone at the time and couldn't research), simply didn't realize that Merciless/Annihilate had their CD bumped up to 15 seconds instead of the original 12. All three of our core abilities as Watchman/Annihilation have a nine-second cooldown now (I consider Cauterize/Rupture as having a nine second CD as overwriting the DoT is kind of pointless; you'd never want to use it except to refresh the DoT because of its low damage/focus on the instant hit).

 

That long CD on our core abilities is to me, honestly, the worst change to the spec. It's not exactly fun to have to wait that long to do something cool again.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Diviciacus