4.0 changes. Why? Just why...

[Equeliber]

1) Annihilation:

Negative: Force charge now has 10-30m range, Rupture damage decreased and Force Rend has a cooldown. Positive thing: Force Rend now generates 3 rage. Result: A ****ed up rotation, less dps.

2) Carnage:

Negative: Critical damage on Massacre and Devastating Blast reduced to 10% (from 30%). Positive: None. Result: less dps.

3) Negative: Critical damage of all attacks is down to 10% (from 15%). And what is interesting, Rage juggernaut is left the same. Positive: None. Result: Already underperforming spec is not getting any buffs at all (new passive "kind of" balances out the damage output).

 

So we end up with all 3 specs nerfed. For no reason. Without stating it in patch notes. And don't tell me new passives make up for it. A small buff to bleeds, a weak DoT (????) and a small crit damage buff (which is okay-ish).

Please, Bioware, explain, why you did that and gave no warning? And nothing in Patch Notes.

 

I am sad. Yes, changes aren't huge but for me, who mains a marauder it is a huge letdown. I guess I'll go play on my gunslinger for now, especially as the Saboteur new passive is sexy.

 

But again. Why you do dis?

Edited October 20, 2015 by Equeliber

[Bugattiboy]

But again. Why you do dis?

 

The only thing I can think of is that EA doesn't want people play Sentinels anymore so that when they delete the class in the future no gets bent out of shape because no one plays it anymore.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Bugattiboy

[TheRealVeranor]

I have been parsing.

 

I stacked some ilvl 190 alacrity mods, since accuracy is pretty much worthless (I net a dps gain with alacrity lol)

[KeyboardNinja]

Accuracy isn't worthless. You still need 9% accuracy from your gear to avoid missing.

 

Beyond that… Take these adjustments in context with everything else. The crit damage reductions are absolutely necessary when you consider the new "super crit", which increases surge in the event of an auto-crit. Both Carnage and Fury revolve around auto-crit attacks and have bonuses to baseline force crit, meaning that they benefit enormously from this change in the combat system. Do you really want Carnage marauders going around and auto-critting people for 30k? Me neither.

 

As for Annihilation, keep playing with it. The rotation is different from what it was in 3.0, but that doesn't mean it's broken or low DPS. The abilities fit together smoothly, you just have to adjust.

[TheRealVeranor]

I'm starting to see what you're saying here.

 

Its requiring a lot of tuning and adjustment, but I'm assuming most patches require this anyhow.

 

My guardian though required little adjustment though, so the difference between the 2 was night/day.

 

Also - I noticed that melee and force were > 100%, so while I do need accuracy, its not as much. In fact, I simply augmented a couple of comp implants and am using that lol.

[Equeliber]

I understand what you are saying about crit, KBN. And yeah, I guess if you do some more testing it might be the same for autocrits. Massacre wasn't an auto crit tho, so that's not cool what happened there. And about force Rend change, again, if we find out that dps is not that much different, it's ok. But there is still the fact that Annihilation loses it's 2nd interrupt and an immobilize from force charge. While we get nothing in return. Nerf? Nerf. Might not be as drastic as i put it in original post, but I was just pretty emotional when I went through my character changes. And in the end, what I can say is that they took some things away from these specs and gave nothing in return.

[Vongolasky]

Remember, they changed how Crit works, getting rid of surge and making Crit chance buff damage over 100%. So that Crit tweaks could be because of that. You should check if there are similar "nerfs" on other classes.

[Equeliber]

I checked - there are similar crit damage changes on Lightning sorc, Pyrotech PT and Concealment operative. With last 2 it can't be justified with auto crits as they have none. I guess they felt that overall crit change will make these abilities do too much crit damage. That raises another question - why both merc specs or AP PT still has 30%. Why snipers have 30%? Not that they are affected by crit in a different way... Edited October 21, 2015 by Equeliber

[jokas]

Force rend lasts 9 seconds. now has a 12 second cooldown. Great Job swtor. Didnt put anything in the patch notes about this happening. You will be losing me as a customer.

[Equeliber]

Ugh... Haven't even realized that. So now we have 3 seconds downtime on the dot. Nice job. Did they even have these Annihilation changes on PTS? Or is it completely out of nowhere?

[Arunas]

No need for doom & gloom yet, need to see if annihilation damage is competitive. Chances are it might still be one of the top parsing specs. Supposedly carnage damage went up due to these changes, I personally would love to have two nice specs for PvE.

[Krazyfuri]

No need for doom & gloom yet, need to see if annihilation damage is competitive. Chances are it might still be one of the top parsing specs. Supposedly carnage damage went up due to these changes, I personally would love to have two nice specs for PvE.

 

Its not only about damage and competitiveness. There is also the factor of play style, that had been already crippled with the 3.0 changes, and now has been almost destroyed, making annihilation lose about half of its unique playstyle and animation effects with the force charge.

 

There is also the problem that Bioware, prior to the 4.0, had promised Annihilation to be BUFFED in damage since the last damage nerfs, and even went so far ahead and asked the players on this very forum where they would like to see the damage increase for this skill tree, which is still nowhere to be seen. And now you're telling me that we have to wait and see if we maybe didn't get nerfed too badly? That's just a joke, honestly. And a sad one.

[DuckimusPrime]

Its not only about damage and competitiveness. There is also the factor of play style, that had been already crippled with the 3.0 changes, and now has been almost destroyed, making annihilation lose about half of its unique playstyle and animation effects with the force charge.

 

Having Force Leap/Charge be a part of the rotation has always been stupid for Watchman/Annihilation. It badly affects the classes mobility, now Force Leap will be available when you need to it close on another enemy.

 

The acrobatic leaping around the target isn't even lore friendly for Juyo, it would be much better suited to Ataru.

Edited October 21, 2015 by DuckimusPrime

[Krazyfuri]

Having Force Leap/Charge be a part of the rotation has always been stupid for Watchman/Annihilation. It badly affects the classes mobility, now Force Leap will be available when you need to it close on another enemy.

 

The acrobatic leaping around the target isn't even lore friendly for Juyo, it would be much better suited to Ataru.

 

The Leap not only had a different range, but also a reduced cooldown, you didn't really have any chance to need it and not have it up for this skill tree. It was also more useful for PvP than PvE, since it was easier to close the gap with such a improved leap, especially the short distances, since the focus on the Annihilation tree is to keep your dots up and on multiple targets, which is neither possible right now - you'll have to focus a single target on PvP, with your ''new'' DoT on 15 sec cd, there is no way you can switch targets anymore. With a ''normal'' leap, you have to stay on your target all the time instead of freely applying your dots. Both these changes in play style heavily affect the sentinel/marauder, specially if you take into consideration that it's heal and damage was considerably nerfed, using as excuse that it was now ''easier to hit multiple targets with your dots'', but these changes effectively nullify that. If your target dies now, it will die with your Force Rend on it, making you unable to use it on any other targets for a considerable amount of time, also unable to switch targets or to better position yourself with your improved leap to dotspread.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Krazyfuri

[royalfreshness]

Yea i shouldn't be critting harder in anni than carnage..... whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy???

[jokas]

Ok guys I have run the numbers. You are going to love me for this. For the new 4.0 for anni. You are going to need to run 4 pieces accuracy. 4 pieces alacrity, 2-3 crit pieces, rest in power. I hit 4.7k dps without being in 208 augments. I hope this helps

[Grimsblood]

The Watchmen rotation has been cleaned up a LOT with these changes. Mobility has increased too. You don't have to use leap as a focus generator over a gap closer. Our positioning will get faster which means more uptime on bosses. The priority list is smooth and I have already found a couple tricks to increase dps. The class plays like it used to back at launch. Only difference is we have abilities that are only for gap closing/positioning and we have 3 different dumps/fillers vs 1 (or 2, if you count strike). With the content being everything, Sentinels will be on top.

 

I haven't ran the numbers, but the whole critical thing....it applies to Zenith too I assume?

[jokas]

The Watchmen rotation has been cleaned up a LOT with these changes. Mobility has increased too. You don't have to use leap as a focus generator over a gap closer. Our positioning will get faster which means more uptime on bosses. The priority list is smooth and I have already found a couple tricks to increase dps. The class plays like it used to back at launch. Only difference is we have abilities that are only for gap closing/positioning and we have 3 different dumps/fillers vs 1 (or 2, if you count strike). With the content being everything, Sentinels will be on top.

 

I haven't ran the numbers, but the whole critical thing....it applies to Zenith too I assume?

 

Yes it does. running 2-3 crit makes everything hit hard. I just ran tfb and hit 5100 dps on kephess. still not fully augmented. running the 4 pieces of alacrity gives you only a 2 second down time of force rend. annihilate has been modified to cost 4 rage now instead of 3. also the new set pieces do not stack with the old 192/198 set pieces

[jokas]

Opener for anni.

dual saber throw, force charge, battering assault, annihilate, force rend, deadly saber, rupture, ravage, annihilate.

So far still parsing and getting gear. will post more about anni soon

[KeyboardNinja]

Ok guys I have run the numbers. You are going to love me for this. For the new 4.0 for anni. You are going to need to run 4 pieces accuracy. 4 pieces alacrity, 2-3 crit pieces, rest in power. I hit 4.7k dps without being in 208 augments. I hope this helps

 

No offense, but 4.7k is quite low relative to the norm in this patch. A guardian in my guild hit 5.7k (on the 1.5 mil, obviously, since the 1 mil is a joke now) the same hour he reached 65. People will be topping 6k very, very shortly.

 

With that said, your gear numbers sound mostly right (with the caveat that you should be running quite a bit more accuracy than you're claiming; the basic attack accuracy change doesn't affect gearing), and your broader point (that annihilation is in a good place) is certainly accurate.

[Grimsblood]

Yes it does. running 2-3 crit makes everything hit hard. I just ran tfb and hit 5100 dps on kephess. still not fully augmented. running the 4 pieces of alacrity gives you only a 2 second down time of force rend. annihilate has been modified to cost 4 rage now instead of 3. also the new set pieces do not stack with the old 192/198 set pieces

 

Yah know, I just had a thought. We still have click power relics, correct? They may be the much better choice for Watchmen now vs the proc. Someone would have to run the numbers, but the on demand power with the crit/surge from Zenith may make things interesting. At least for fights with controlled burn phases.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I don't understand why people are spouting doom and gloom with the 4.0 Annihilation Changes.

 

These changes make the spec 100% better.

 

Force Rend now replaces Force Charge's old role. Now, you will not leap BACKWARDS in the Core portion of Revan, which was suicidal.

 

The new addition that makes Vicious Slash deal more damage on a proc helps for filler, which the rotation now has room for.

 

Surge changes were because Auto-Crits got buffed out the ***, now your Crit% + Surge% == Surge% for Auto Crits If i read the changes right.

[KeyboardNinja]

Yah know, I just had a thought. We still have click power relics, correct? They may be the much better choice for Watchmen now vs the proc. Someone would have to run the numbers, but the on demand power with the crit/surge from Zenith may make things interesting. At least for fights with controlled burn phases.

 

Clicky relics have always been better for fights which are exclusively bounded by short, periodic burn phases. For example, imagine a hypothetical EC Kephess in which killing the walker was really friggin hard and the fight ended once it dropped. A slightly more realistic example might be NiM Calphayus, though even then the DPS windows are far too long to be amenable to the relic.

 

A lot of healers went with clicky relics for the NiM Raptus healing challenge. But that's basically it.

 

Math:

 

Boundless Ages: 631 power for 30 seconds, cooldown of 120 seconds, for a time-averaged power of 157.75

Serendipitous Assault: 966 power for 6 seconds, cooldown of 23 seconds (taking into account proc rate), for time-average of 252

 

It's not even close, unless you have a fight which is literally all about 30 second burns once every two minutes, and none of the fights in the game fit that model.

[Grimsblood]

Clicky relics have always been better for fights which are exclusively bounded by short, periodic burn phases. For example, imagine a hypothetical EC Kephess in which killing the walker was really friggin hard and the fight ended once it dropped. A slightly more realistic example might be NiM Calphayus, though even then the DPS windows are far too long to be amenable to the relic.

 

A lot of healers went with clicky relics for the NiM Raptus healing challenge. But that's basically it.

 

Math:

 

Boundless Ages: 631 power for 30 seconds, cooldown of 120 seconds, for a time-averaged power of 157.75

Serendipitous Assault: 966 power for 6 seconds, cooldown of 23 seconds (taking into account proc rate), for time-average of 252

 

It's not even close, unless you have a fight which is literally all about 30 second burns once every two minutes, and none of the fights in the game fit that model.

 

I understand that. My point is two fold. If a process relic does not proc during the Zen Window, how much dps would you loose as opposed to being able to trigger a click relic? If your proc relic process when you have to reposition or deal with a mechanic, how much dps will you loose (how many times of missing that 6 second window before a click you becomes more beneficial)?

 

Now factor in the changes to crit/surge. Zen is giving us a LOT more now than it was before. Stack damage increases that are % based is a good thing. Stack all your damage and power values into a that % window will increase its effectiveness.

 

Because of the changes, I am thinking that a click relic might win out on every live fight for Watchmen where a process will win on a dummy.

[KeyboardNinja]

I understand that. My point is two fold. If a process relic does not proc during the Zen Window, how much dps would you loose as opposed to being able to trigger a click relic? If your proc relic process when you have to reposition or deal with a mechanic, how much dps will you loose (how many times of missing that 6 second window before a click you becomes more beneficial)?

 

This has always sort of been an issue with the procs. It's even more serious for burst rotations that run on a 10.5 second period (e.g. Fury, Lightning), since they essentially sit on a razor edge between "godlike" and "useless" relic procs. Even on a dummy.

 

Let's assume you get perfect uptime out of every 30 second window, and you are able to hit the relic exactly on CD, and this somehow works out precisely with your rotation period, the cycles in the fight, mechanics, other cooldowns, etc. So, the absolute best the BA relic can ever be, even in theory. How much disruption on your SA proc windows would you need to see to make it worse than this hypothetically optimal BA relic?

 

37.4% In other words, every time your SA relic procs (once every 23 seconds!), you would need to be doing literally zero DPS for almost half the proc window in order to make the BA relic a superior choice. Imagine fudging this a bit to translate "literally zero DPS" into "severely degraded DPS" by increasing the percentage of downtime per proc window and you have a more realistic computation, but still.

 

I think the only fight which has that much rotational disruption is the Core burn on Revan HM for a class that lacks physics immunity, but the Core burn also lacks any uninterrupted 30 second windows, so the BA relic is pretty bad too. Maybe it would be BiS for a gunslinger though, since they get two uninterrupted windows over the course of a high-60s kill. Hard to say.

 

Now factor in the changes to crit/surge. Zen is giving us a LOT more now than it was before. Stack damage increases that are % based is a good thing. Stack all your damage and power values into a that % window will increase its effectiveness.

 

Well, actually what I wonder is if power isn't even the right way to go anymore. Every ounce of crit you stack is pure auto-crit, double-counted surge goodness during zen. I don't know if that's enough to make it BiS, but it's a thought.

 

Because of the changes, I am thinking that a click relic might win out on every live fight for Watchmen where a process will win on a dummy.

 

I'm all about gearing for live fights rather than dummies, but color me skeptical on this one. :-)

Edited October 21, 2015 by KeyboardNinja