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Darth Traya runs the prodigal knight gauntlet

Beniboybling

By Beniboybling
in STAR WARS Discussion

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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Several of the galaxies greatest champions of the light challenge Traya at the center of her power.

 

Darth Traya vs.

 

1. KOTOR Revan

2. ROTJ Luke Skywalker

3. Hero of Tython

4. Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi

 

Boss: DE Luke Skywalker

 

Battleground: Malachor V, Trayus Core

 

Bonus Round: Traya gets Darth Sion as backup.

 

Traya gets 10 minutes rest between each round and cannot use Force drain. Otherwise all characters have full use of their abilities and morals are off. Who wins?

 

NOTE: Please provide reasoning for you're opinion to spark some argument, no one word answers.

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Fyurii

Fyurii

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I'd say that she could make it as far as round 3 at the very least.

 

KoTOR Revan isn't back to full form yet (incomplete memories still, leading to not being fully aware of his capabilities or potential) which would allow Kreia the edge she needs to defeat him.

 

RoTJ Luke is an easier fight, due to his lacking experience in combating Sith that aren't holding back when fighting him (Vader was holding back on Bespin and on the second Death Star).

 

HoT has had far more experience combating and resisting both the physical prowess and mental domination of powerful Sith, i.e. Vitiate, that the effects of the Trayus Core would be negligible. The HoT has shown the ability to remain focused enough in combat that verbal sparring wouldn't be a problem, and Kreia does love to use words as weapons as much the Force or even her lightsaber.

I'd say it would be close enough to confronting Vitiate on Dromund Kaas that the HoT would be the most likely to emerge victorious.

 

If facing Jaina and then DE Luke, there would be no contest victory for them.

Jaina's lifetime of experience in fighting against such a diverse range of adversaries, with all the skills and abilities learned throughout all of that, gives her an edge that I doubt even the Trayus Core could blunt.

 

DE Luke would be no stranger to the effects of the Trayus Core, having experienced similar effects from Palpatine himself, I'd say that it would be enough to dull his full potential, but not enough to give Traya victory, not against Luke when he's basically a slightly tamer version of the game representation of Galen Marek in DE.

 

Saying all that though, Sion could certainly be the tipping point Kreia would need to make it all the way through to DE Luke, if he wasn't just for the bonus round. As long as nobody figured out that he was being kept alive by his own anger fuelled will...

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Traya dies at Revan. He's a better duelist, more powerful Force user, and has defeated a greater foe on a more potent nexus. Since Beni will attempt to prove me wrong here, I'll go ahead and make him work for it.

 

Revan's victory over Malak on the Star Forge is easily enough to suggest that he would defeat Traya, dark side nexus or no. Darth Malak is a superior opponent through his superior dueling ability to Traya, and he possesses comparable power to her as well. Not to mention that the Star Forge is a comparable, if not superior nexus to Malachor V. The Star Forge was the main cause for the destruction of the Rakata and even the Ancient Sith (The ones Traya prizes as superior to her) were unable to control it.

 

Revan was the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy during KOTOR. Even Malak believed that Malak's abilities made him a greater asset than Bastila's Battle Meditation, the same Battle Meditation that led to Malak going on a galactic manhunt for her and eventually razing a planet to stop her.

 

If we want even more facts, Meetra herself considers Revan superior to Traya. Not just Revan, however, an inferior incarnation (Revan as of the Mandalorian Wars). If Revan's inferior incarnation is superior to Traya (By both Meetra and Traya's admissions), then how is Traya more powerful than the upgraded material?

 

Let's face it. Revan is a better fighter than Traya, has been considered more powerful than her, and defeated a comparable Sith Lord to her on a powerful nexus after fighting through armies. Revan's simply better than Traya is, in every way that matters. She stops at 1.

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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I'm a little distracted right now for reasons you know so I probably won't have time to get properly into this argument, nonetheless good points, do you think Traya could pull out a win if she had Sion has back up?

 

Depends on how Revan fights. He can take Sion pretty easily, but Sion's regenerative abilities can give Traya a potential opening.

 

Revan wins if he fights smart though.

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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Well using a rudimentary measuring stick: HoT < Windu < Vader <= RotJ Luke.
As a duelist or a Force user?

 

I'd say as a Force user the HoT is considerably superior to Windu, though likely not Luke. What's more important though is Luke's inexperience and ineffectiveness against DS attacks, which would make him very vulnerable to Vitiate.

 

As well as Traya, which is why I place in low on the list.

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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As a duelist or a Force user?

 

I'd say as a Force user the HoT is considerably superior to Windu.

 

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

—Star Wars Fact Files

 

I'm not sure on what ground would be HoT superior to Count Dooku's equal. HoT's best feat is beating Vitiate (with his droid :p), but since later it is stated that he has no chance against him, it's obvious he was weakened. To what degree is anyone's guess.

There were other high profile enemies he faced though. Such as Malgus. Who is inferior to Vader in every way, yet he needed 3 other people to defeat him. Windu would give Vader a hell of a fight, and with a single backup he would definitely win as well.

 

HoT has got nothing on Windu, neither feat wise or accolades wise.

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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Ah and one more thing:

What's more important though is Luke's inexperience and ineffectiveness against DS attacks, which would make him very vulnerable to Vitiate.

 

As well as Traya, which is why I place in low on the list.

Luke could tutaminis the initial lightning of Sidious. That puts him above HoT straight away.

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

—Star Wars Fact Files

 

I'm not sure on what ground would be HoT superior to Count Dooku's equal. HoT's best feat is beating Vitiate (with his droid :p), but since later it is stated that he has no chance against him, it's obvious he was weakened. To what degree is anyone's guess.

There were other high profile enemies he faced though. Such as Malgus. Who is inferior to Vader in every way, yet he needed 3 other people to defeat him. Windu would give Vader a hell of a fight, and with a single backup he would definitely win as well.

 

HoT has got nothing on Windu, neither feat wise or accolades wise.

Even a weakened Vitiate is still extremely powerful, more powerful than the likes of Windu or Dooku. On top of that he was sitting on an extremely potent dark side nexus that would have also hindered the HoT's abilities, the HoT having just fought through a small army of soldiers and best of the Imperial Guard, who even the DC were afraid of.

 

It's a pretty exceptional feat, and on top of that the HoT was regarded as the greatest Jedi in the Order.

 

As for Malgus, Anakin Skywalker would give Dooku a hell of a fight, in fact he'd defeat him, and yet we still see Dooku capably contending with Anakin and Kenobi combined on multiple occasions.

 

Fact is Malgus lost, and he doesn't even seem to think he can win, his ability to contend with multiple powerful individuals who alone may be strong enough to overcome him, is not at all unusual.

Ah and one more thing:

 

Luke could tutaminis the initial lightning of Sidious. That puts him above HoT straight away.

Yes but to little effect because of his inexperience. Galen Marek, a Force user comparable to Luke in power was far more successful in defending against Darth Sidious lightning, because of his experience.

 

So while yes Luke has enough raw power to defeat the Emperor, he doesn't necessarily have the skill and experience needed to apply it, and defend against Vitiate's lightning or worse his sorcery.

 

However there is a debate to be had there, so maybe I'll have Vitiate run this gauntlet at a later date.

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Fyurii

Fyurii

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Ah and one more thing:

 

Luke could tutaminis the initial lightning of Sidious. That puts him above HoT straight away.

 

Pretty sure RoTJ Luke couldn't, and definitely didn't.

DE Luke absolutely, and iirc he did (I remember him doing it with an AT-AT but I'm only half sure he did with Palpatine, think it was when he'd just transferred into a clone body before forcing Luke to serve him).

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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Even a weakened Vitiate is still extremely powerful, more powerful than the likes of Windu or Dooku.

 

You simply don't know that. Anyway canon source puts Windu above HoT, while HoT's only accolade is being the best of his era, no mention of other eras...

Pretty sure RoTJ Luke couldn't, and definitely didn't.

DE Luke absolutely, and iirc he did (I remember him doing it with an AT-AT but I'm only half sure he did with Palpatine, think it was when he'd just transferred into a clone body before forcing Luke to serve him).

He could and did. Well at least until Palps turned on the volume beyond Luke's capability. But since the HoT never tutaminis'd lightning Luke > HoT still stands.

 

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony -he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

 

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

—Return of the Jedi

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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You simply don't know that. Anyway canon source puts Windu above HoT, while HoT's only accolade is being the best of his era, no mention of other eras...
Well I don't believe the HoT was stronger than Vitiate, it was likely his martial skill that gave him the victory.

 

But a fair point concerning the quote.

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tunewalker

tunewalker

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Again Luke is still far less experienced and the notion he was as powerful in the Force as Vader is questionable.

 

No its not, the novelization of RotJ makes it clear, the story that was originally presented as the Original trilogy makes it clear, Luke worked hard and surpassed his father. He wouldnt have beat him other wise, Palpatine wouldnt have wanted him other wise. Palpatine never replaces his apprentice until a more powerful one appears. Luke may have failed after Sidious ramped it up, but succeeding at all when he is ALREADY being hurt by it (so his concentration and his pull on the force was already weakened) is more then most MASTERS were able to pull against Sidious. "Inexperienced" or not he has displayed greater aptitude for fighting high caliber Force users then even the HoT.

 

From the way I see it RotJ Luke is to Sidious as Prime Revan is to Vitiate. They both didnt really stand a chance, but the gap is about the same, even their stories are almost parrellels of one another especially when you look at KoToR compared to the Original Trilogy. If Vitiate is not stronger then Sidious, then Revan is not Stronger then Luke as they both fill the same roll in their strories and both display similar level of capabilities against their opponent. Luke never fought Sidious with his saber, and he was already tired from fighting Vader and was already in pain when he first reflected the lightning considering Vader was basically a near Equal Revan never had to deal with an opponent of that Caliber before facing Vitiate.

 

Either way again as the stories present themselves in both KoToR 1 and 2 Kreia does not make it past Round 1 with Revan, he is just out of her league.

Edited by tunewalker
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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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Well George Lucas says that Luke wasn't actually ready to face Vader:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

 

--George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.

And we never actually see Luke handle Vader's offensive Force powers in the battle.

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