Wolfninjajedi Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) And yet somehow the Bounty Hunter for one canonically shoots, stabs, sets on fire, and explodes quite the track list of powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. The Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, the finest lightsaber duelist of the Order and master of combat, is among them. This entire thread is nothing but whining about how half the PCs in this game should be nothing but cannon fodder for the other half and top out their stories around Act 1 because clearly they can't fight skilled Force-users despite the game consistently demonstrating otherwise. Which logically, the Hunter shouldn't be doing straight up against such guys. The game allows this because well it's fun, but as far as actual lore would go? There would be no way a Bounty Hunter, even a great one would be able to go 1 on 1 against a powerful Force User if they actually were serious and weren't jobbing or holding back, even then it's shown that even holding back the Hunters have to use pretty much all their arsenal just to keep up. IE: Boba, Jango, Vizsla. It happens in other mediums. Why people think that Jedi or Sith can't be affected by plot or whatever is beyond me. At some point if it happened and the PCs actually were formed as actual characters, you can bet that they wouldn't be attacking these Force Users straight up and personal without some kind of advantage, or they just use a different method in taking them out. Edited October 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Which logically, the Hunter shouldn't be doing straight up against such guys. The game allows this because well it's fun, but as far as actual lore would go? There would be no way a Bounty Hunter, even a great one would be able to go 1 on 1 against a powerful Force User if they actually were serious and weren't jobbing or holding back, even then it's shown that even holding back the Hunters have to use pretty much all their arsenal just to keep up. It happens in other mediums. And yet other mediums are not what are at hand. The OP of the thread asked "Does it make sense for a non-Force-sensitive to be going up against people like Emperor Valkorion and Prince Arcann, powerful masters of the Force, and win?" Going by TOR's history, which is the only relevant history given that this is TOR's story we're talking about, the answer is a firm "Yes." Other mediums portray Jedi and Sith as far more powerful than TOR does, but TOR's depictions are the only ones that matter when considering how TOR will portray them again. And "that's just gameplay, that totally doesn't actually happen" is nothing but whining with no evidence to back it up. The story confirms yup, the Bounty Hunter killed Jun Seros and possibly Darth Tormen. Yup, the Imperial Agent took down Ardun Kothe. No special lore excuses, no deception, those events happened exactly as presented. Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) And yet other mediums are not what are at hand. The OP of the thread asked "Does it make sense for a non-Force-sensitive to be going up against people like Emperor Valkorion and Prince Arcann, powerful masters of the Force, and win?" Going by TOR's history, which is the only relevant history given that this is TOR's story we're talking about, the answer is a firm "Yes." Other mediums portray Jedi and Sith as far more powerful than TOR does, but TOR's depictions are the only ones that matter when considering how TOR will portray them again. As far as from a game perspective? Of course the Non-Force Sensitives would be able to go up against those guys. But if the PCs were written as actual characters and not subjected by game, but in lore? Then you'd have a different outcome where said Non Force User, would either have prep, a numbers advantage or attacking them in a different manner, usually combining a mix of either 2 or all 3 of these things and not opting for a straight up engagement. Yes they have killed/defeated Force Users, but HOW is the question. Because you can't go off a boss fight in game, as it relies dependently on the player and could have a number of things changed in who the character was, spec and so on. Actual lore would present a an actual representation of what said person did and how they took out these guys. Edited October 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) As far as from a game perspective? Of course the Non-Force Sensitives would be able to go up against those guys. But if the PCs were written as actual characters and not subjected by game, but in lore? Then you'd have a different outcome where said Non Force User, would either have prep, a numbers advantage or attacking them in a different manner, usually combining a mix of either 2 or all 3 of these things and not opting for a straight up engagement. Yes they have killed/defeated Force Users, but HOW is the question. Because you can't go off a boss fight in game, as it relies dependently on the player and could have a number of things changed in who the character was, spec and so on. Actual lore would present a an actual representation of what said person did and how they took out these guys. You're still trying to move the goalposts and indeed the entire terms of the argument. TOR does depict the PCs as characters and lore figures. There is no gameplay/lore dichotomy. The Bounty Hunter marches straight in to Jun Seros, the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, and kills him in a straight fight. Period. There has never been the slightest indication that "events REALLY happened some other way than the game had it happen" for any class. "Actual lore" is powerful Jedi and Sith get killed by non-Force-sensitives, period, unless you can find a statement by the Bioware developers that states otherwise. Remember the Bioware statement about writing the Imperial Agent, that it was inspired by A New Hope and how by all indications Darth Vader answers to Grand Moff Tarkin, constantly taking orders from him and Leia refers to Tarkin as the one holding Vader's leash. The Imperial Agent was explicitly written to answer the question "What kind of non-Force-sensitive human in the Imperial hierarchy would be able to order Darths around?" Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) And yet other mediums are not what are at hand. The OP of the thread asked "Does it make sense for a non-Force-sensitive to be going up against people like Emperor Valkorion and Prince Arcann, powerful masters of the Force, and win?" Going by TOR's history, which is the only relevant history given that this is TOR's story we're talking about, the answer is a firm "Yes." Other mediums portray Jedi and Sith as far more powerful than TOR does, but TOR's depictions are the only ones that matter when considering how TOR will portray them again. And "that's just gameplay, that totally doesn't actually happen" is nothing but whining with no evidence to back it up. The story confirms yup, the Bounty Hunter killed Jun Seros and possibly Darth Tormen. Yup, the Imperial Agent took down Ardun Kothe. No special lore excuses, no deception, those events happened exactly as presented. Exar Kun is part of TOR's history. As it took place in "The old republic." Vitiate is more powerful than Exar Kun. You realize the non-force users going against Revan/Valkorion probably won't be the canon path the story takes? Just like Dark Side revan in KOTOR is not canon nor is a Male Exile? As for the enemies the Hunter defeats there's more than one battlemaster in this time frame. We see NPC Jedi's named "Battlemaster" also the Jedi Knight gets the title battlemaster. The battlemaster is not in valkorion's league. The battlemaster the hunter fights isn't even on the league of the Jedi Knight player nor Darth Nox. Not even on the voice's league. Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Exar Kun is part of TOR's history. As it took place in "The old republic." Vitiate is more powerful than Exar Kun. You realize the non-force users going against Revan/Valkorion probably won't be the canon path the story takes? Just like Dark Side revan in KOTOR is not canon nor is a Male Exile? You realize that's all completely irrelevant to this argument, right? Funny, really, how everyone saying "No, non-Force-sensitive classes should be chumps and cannon fodder" can only argue that point by bringing in material outside TOR when TOR's story is the only point of contention. Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) You realize that's all completely irrelevant to this argument, right? I added to my post as you responded. The hunter doesn't fight people with the accolades the Inquisitor, Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, or the Consular's opponents have. Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) I added to my post as you responded. Ah, yes, the "But he's not REALLY the Jedi Battlemaster" argument. Try again. There are in fact three battlemasters to date in TOR. The first one gets killed by the Bounty Hunter. His replacement gets killed by Imperials (which can include no Sith at all) in Assault on Tython. His replacement is the Jedi Knight PC. Hope those dead man's shoes are comfortable. Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Ah, yes, the "But he's not REALLY the Jedi Battlemaster" argument. Try again. No. That wasn't my argument. My argument was he's not the only battlemaster. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 No. That wasn't my argument. My argument was he's not the only battlemaster. Try again. Correct. He's not the only battlemaster because his position is replaced after his death. And the Jedi Knight replaces his replacement after said replacement is also killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Correct. He's not the only battlemaster because his position is replaced after his death. And the Jedi Knight replaces his replacement after said replacement is also killed. Going to explain why there's npcs also named battlemaster? Why not just generic "Jedi master" titles? One of the conquest commanders is also a veteran battlemaster. There's also the fact that not all battlemasters are near the top of the Jedi Order. Cin Drallig was the battlemaster in the prequel trilogy. He's not on Windu, Yoda, Dooku, or Sidious' league. Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Going to explain why there's npcs also named battlemaster? Why not just generic "Jedi master" titles? Because as TOR shows, it's a position with a lot of turnover. Moreover, the story explicitly identifies Jun Seros as the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, the greatest warrior and master of the lightsaber the Jedi have. He is killed, and eventually the Jedi Knight is given that title in the hopes that you'll last a bit longer than your predecessors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayddow Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Non force users being able to take down force users occurs in other SW media besides SWTOR. Think of what happened with order 66. Additionally, look up HK47s old conversations in KOTOR on "how to kill a Jedi", and HK definitely didn't use the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) There's also the fact that not all battlemasters are near the top of the Jedi Order. Cin Drallig was the battlemaster in the prequel trilogy. He's not on Windu, Yoda, Dooku, or Sidious' league. And this is completely irrelevant to the argument. Please stop shifting the goalposts. Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) And this has the slightest relevance to this argument why? Please stop shifting the goalposts. No goal posts have been moved. I don't think you know what that term means. A battlemaster is someone who has mastered all the forms of lightsaber combat. Not necessarily that they are the best duelist. Mace wasn't the battlemaster because he only mastered one form of lightsaber combat and mastered his own style. Dooku, likewise, only mastered a single form of lightsaber combat. Dooku and Mace are both better duelists and are more powerful than Cin Drallig but this is why neither of them have the title. The battlemaster's job is to be the ultimate lightsaber instructor for new Jedi initiates, masters, knights, and padawans. Likewise, someone can technically be the best duelist but still lose because another is more powerful. So let's assume for a moment he is the best fighter in the jedi order. That doesn't mean he's the most powerful member of the Jedi order. If you think just because he has the title battlemaster he can defeat all of the jedi on the council and the grandmaster herself you're delusional and if you accept this fact then it doesn't mean the bounty hunter is capable of defeating the greatest Jedi either. No goal posts have been moved. I provided evidence that there might be more than one battlemaster as well as evidence that just because he is the battlemaster doesn't mean he's the most powerful Jedi or even close to it. I also am very curious about something. Do you know how he got the title battlemaster? What he did to earn him that title? Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Well actually Rhy, the Jedi Battlemaster are noted as some of the most deadliest beings in the galaxy with a blade and Cin is noted as one of the top Jedi duelists in the Order(but yes he's not on the level of like Mace and all them, but he is up there and has some pretty good accolades to his name). But yes, even so that doesn't translate them to being powerful overall, just that they have great combat skill. Edited October 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Problem for you: everything you just posted is completely irrelevant to the argument. My position: What is shown to happen in the game happens as shown, and therefore it makes complete sense for non-Force-sensitives to participate in the expansion. Your position: But that's not what REALLY happened. Fine. Prove it. Find the statements by Bioware about TOR that support your argument because that is the only evidence relevant to this argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Problem for you: everything you just posted is completely irrelevant to the argument. My position: What is shown to happen in the game happens as shown, and therefore it makes complete sense for non-Force-sensitives to participate in the expansion. Your position: But that's not what REALLY happened. Fine. Prove it. Find the statements by Bioware about TOR that support your argument because that is the only evidence relevant to this argument. Oh. So it's completely irrelevant to the fact that you argue Non-force sensitives can take on the most powerful Jedi and Sith in the old republic. So you use the defeat of the jedi battlemaster as your evidence for this. So it's irrelevant for me to point out that just because he's the battlemaster it doesn't mean he's anywhere near some of the strongest sith and Jedi even in his own time frame? Nevermind the fact that the reason he personally got the title is due to his skills on the battlefield and how many battles/victories that he won which were mostly from strategic and tactical plays? Not any demonstration of raw power? The man is impressive. He's a master of the lightsaber and is intelligent, cunning, and wise but he doesn't have any acolade that states he's also incredibly powerful. You made the claim that non-force sensitives can defeat (In this story) the most powerful sith/jedi but have nothing to back that up other than the fact the bounty hunter defeated a man who was most reknown for his tactical and strategic cunning. I shoot back at you. Give me proof that the Hunter has defeated someone who knows techniques such as force crush, force drain, or somebody who can even compete on the level of the Emperor's Voice. Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Oh. So it's completely irrelevant to the fact that you argue Non-force sensitives can take on the most powerful Jedi and Sith in the old republic. So you use the defeat of the jedi battlemaster as your evidence for this. So it's irrelevant for me to point out that just because he's the battlemaster it doesn't mean he's anywhere near some of the strongest sith and Jedi even in his own time frame? Nevermind the fact that the reason he personally got the title is due to his skills on the battlefield and how many battles/victories that he won which were mostly from strategic and tactical plays? Not any demonstration of raw power? The man is impressive. He's a master of the lightsaber and is intelligent, cunning, and wise but he doesn't have any acolade that states he's also incredibly powerful. You made the claim that non-force sensitives can defeat (In this story) the most powerful sith/jedi but have nothing to back that up other than the fact the bounty hunter defeated a man who was most reknown for his tactical and strategic cunning. Yep. All my tangential arguments are irrelevant. So are yours. You have no actual evidence relevant to the argument and everyone in this thread knows it. Do keep whining if it makes you feel better. Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Yep. All my tangential arguments are irrelevant. So are yours. You have no actual evidence relevant to the argument and everyone in this thread knows it. Do keep whining if it makes you feel better. So you acknowledge you have no argument nor the capability to counter my points? I'll take that as a concession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) So you acknowledge you have no argument nor the capability to counter my points? I'll take that as a concession. Take it if it makes you feel better. Your points are wholly irrelevant to the argument. There is no reason, within the context of TOR, to think the events of the game - which include very powerful Force users getting killed in straight fights by non-Force-sensitives - do not happen exactly as presented, and you have yet to present any evidence that they do not, merely rhetorical "But that's not what REALLY happened" statements. "Countering" your points means nothing. The burden of proof does, and you have yet to provide it. Edited October 5, 2015 by Cythereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Take it if it makes you feel better. Your points are wholly irrelevant to the argument. There is no reason, within the context of TOR, to think the events of the game - which include very powerful Force users getting killed in straight fights by non-Force-sensitives - do not happen exactly as presented, and you have yet to present any evidence that they do not, merely rhetorical "But that's not what REALLY happened" statements. "Countering" your points means nothing. The burden of proof does, and you have yet to provide it. I never claimed that's what really happened. You seem to misunderstand my position. My argument isn't that Non-Force sensitives can't defeat powerful force users. My argument is that they can't against the most powerful force sensitives. The difference between Jun Seros and the Voice of the Emperor is massive in comparison. Realize that just as the voice of the emperor (who isn't as strong as the real thing) Vitiate one shotted the entire jedi council along with the Knight. There is no evidence in the slightest where Jun Seros comes anywhere close to the power of some of the characters in the old republic. The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the claim that non-force sensitives can take out the most powerful force sensitives. Not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. If I tell you I have leprechauns in my backyard but you tell me there is no such thing as leprechauns the burden of proof isn't on you to prove that there is no leprechauns in my backyard. Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeneas_Falco Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Non-force users being able to solo force users is totally a gameplay concession to make all classes viable. No one wants to play a character who gets curbstomped the first time they run across a nameless NPC with a lightsaber, which is probably what would happen if the game strictly followed how force users are portrayed in the films or books. If Empire Strikes Back were an MMO instead of a movie, Han_Solo probably makes short work of Vader on Bespin instead of having his blaster force-yanked out of his hand and being told to take a seat like a naughty child. I have no issues with these gameplay concessions because I also want to have fun while I'm playing my Bounty Hunter or Smuggler. I think it is fair to say though that in some scenarios the non-force users defeating force users requires a bit more suspension of disbelief than it does for the Jedi or Sith protagonists defeating the same or similar opponents. A Smuggler successfully soloing the Emperor would definitely require a lot more than the Jedi Knight or the Wrath accomplishing the same feat. Edited October 5, 2015 by Aeneas_Falco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I never claimed that's what really happened. You seem to misunderstand my position. My argument isn't that Non-Force sensitives can't defeat powerful force users. My argument is that they can't against the most powerful force sensitives. The difference between Jun Seros and the Voice of the Emperor is massive in comparison. Realize that just as the voice of the emperor (who isn't as strong as the real thing) Vitiate one shotted the entire jedi council along with the Knight. There is no evidence in the slightest where Jun Seros comes anywhere close to the power of some of the characters in the old republic. The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the claim that non-force sensitives can take out the most powerful force sensitives. Not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Hold on, let me get those goalposts back... I'm not arguing about "in general." I am arguing about TOR. If you had any evidence to show regarding the original point of contention in this thread, I suspect you'd have posted it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Hold on, let me get those goalposts back... I'm not arguing about "in general." I am arguing about TOR. If you had any evidence to show regarding the original point of contention in this thread, I suspect you'd have posted it already. I am arguing about ToR as well. Once more you are making the claim that somehow TOR follows different rules than other mediums (it doesn't and if it does provide proof. You made this claim.) and that within TOR these non-force sensitives can take on the most powerful force users that currently exist in TOR (your claim. Provide proof.) These are your claims. You used Jun Seros as an example. I have proven that he was not reknown for his power but his tactical and strategic cunning as well as his knowledge of lightsaber techniques but there is zero evidence that Jun Seros is anywhere close to as powerful as the Emperor. You're the one who has shown zero evidence on the hunter's ability to face something as powerful as the emperor's voice. I also pointed out that the Voice one shotted the entire jedi council. This happened IN TOR. Edited October 5, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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