Virulence sniper, DF gunslinger going to viable in 4.0

[Toraak]

With what they just posted about Critical giving Lower % for both crit chance, plus Crit multiplier then it currently does, and Virulence/DF needing a good amount of crit to sustain it's rotation, will it even be viable anymore? I ask, because it's my Preferred spec, and I really don't like MM/SS (tho I do use it for certain fights). Edited October 2, 2015 by Toraak

[AbashedDuk]

With what they just posted about Critical giving Lower % for both crit chance, plus Crit multiplier then it currently does, and Virulence/DF needing a good amount of crit to sustain it's rotation, will it even be viable anymore? I ask, because it's my Preferred spec, and I really don't like MM/SS (tho I do use it for certain fights).

 

Might be better to run alot more crit in 4.0 than you would now seeing as it increases 2 stats now as opposed to one stat.

[Camelpockets]

Might be better to run alot more crit in 4.0 than you would now seeing as it increases 2 stats now as opposed to one stat.

 

With this in mind, remember that the only things possible to trade out crit for now would be Alacrity and Accuracy (for DPS/Heals of course), since it is becoming a secondary stat, since it is replacing where surge is normally located. Depending on how accuracy rating will be affected in 4.0, the total amount of crit/alacrity enhancements we have will reduced as a result, so optimizing in 4.0 will be finding a balance between Crit and Alacrity. All in all, it is too early to tell how this change will affect this spec, however, I doubt Bioware will intentionally try to make a class unplayable. Whether it happens or not will remain to be seen.

[mastersdr]

with all the changes to crit, do you guys think it will help the energy issues with the 6 piece?

[ArcTrooperElite]

I for one have been dreading the coming of 4.0 on my Vir sniper and DF slinger. Utilizing the old 4 piece 186 set bonus will no longer be viable due to the major stat loss between the 186 and 216+ armorings. I parse over 5100 on my DF slinger using the old 4 new 2 set combo and have no energy management issues in either a 2 cull or 3 cull rotation. Howver when i put on my new 6 pc energy management is a nightmare during sustained periods of high dps and when dummy parsing. I had hoped the energy reduction to QD/Takedown would get applied somewhere in the new set bonus but it doesnt seem that will happnen. Perhaps they could apply the energy reduction to QD/TD when it only when it procs from Wounding Shots/Cull. I hope they do something cause our QoL is going to suck with energy management if they nerf crit again and don't give us a reduction in energy somewhere (QD, TD, DB, LS).

[Whojoo]

To the OP, yea I am certain that DF and Virulence will be viable. I have tried 130-ish crit on parses and some content. DPS was about the same if not better actually, though I admit it was tougher to pull off.

This is also considering the fact that Virulence and DF are, in my opinion, over performing compared to other dps classes.

 

I for one have been dreading the coming of 4.0 on my Vir sniper and DF slinger. Utilizing the old 4 piece 186 set bonus will no longer be viable due to the major stat loss between the 186 and 216+ armorings. I parse over 5100 on my DF slinger using the old 4 new 2 set combo and have no energy management issues in either a 2 cull or 3 cull rotation. Howver when i put on my new 6 pc energy management is a nightmare during sustained periods of high dps and when dummy parsing. I had hoped the energy reduction to QD/Takedown would get applied somewhere in the new set bonus but it doesnt seem that will happnen. Perhaps they could apply the energy reduction to QD/TD when it only when it procs from Wounding Shots/Cull.

 

Ugh I am getting sick from reading this 'we need a cheaper QD/TD' thing over and over again. No we don't, not even for QoL. Our energy management is really easy, even when we're reliant on crits. People just need to get used to stop using Takedown after every Cull. And people need to stop going back to the old 4-pc over and over again.

 

I hope they do something cause our QoL is going to suck with energy management if they nerf crit again and don't give us a reduction in energy somewhere (QD, TD, DB, LS).

 

I will agree wit this however. Our choice changes to Crit vs Alacrity and we kind of need both. Lower crit rate means lower QoL. Like I said I tried 130-ish crit and it was not easy. Results were good though.

Not saying that this dicipline should become easy. I think the current 6-pc + 350-ish crit is about right difficulty wise (also keeping in mind newer players, for veterans it should be easy really).

 

I think most Virulence Snipers will either run a lot less alacrity or Cunning/Mastery augments will not be used in favor of Crit and Alacrity.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Whojoo

[Steefr]

I for one have been dreading the coming of 4.0 on my Vir sniper and DF slinger. Utilizing the old 4 piece 186 set bonus will no longer be viable due to the major stat loss between the 186 and 216+ armorings. I parse over 5100 on my DF slinger using the old 4 new 2 set combo and have no energy management issues in either a 2 cull or 3 cull rotation. Howver when i put on my new 6 pc energy management is a nightmare during sustained periods of high dps and when dummy parsing. I had hoped the energy reduction to QD/Takedown would get applied somewhere in the new set bonus but it doesnt seem that will happnen. Perhaps they could apply the energy reduction to QD/TD when it only when it procs from Wounding Shots/Cull. I hope they do something cause our QoL is going to suck with energy management if they nerf crit again and don't give us a reduction in energy somewhere (QD, TD, DB, LS).

 

I agree with Whojoo, energy management is not a "nightmare' with 6 set bonus, you don't even need that much crit. Run about 300 and use fillers properly and voila results. No you can't use takedown each time but so what considering that the new 6 six set and the higher lvl armorings still give higher dps with use of fillers.

 

I think when i started playing virulence i was useing 450 crit or smth like that to make it easier while learning, now i'm running 250-300 depending. It's all good and yeah Virulence will be viable in 4.0, we'll just have to see how the stat thing shakes out. Also depends on what they're gonna do with accuracy.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

With this in mind, remember that the only things possible to trade out crit for now would be Alacrity and Accuracy (for DPS/Heals of course), since it is becoming a secondary stat, since it is replacing where surge is normally located. Depending on how accuracy rating will be affected in 4.0, the total amount of crit/alacrity enhancements we have will reduced as a result, so optimizing in 4.0 will be finding a balance between Crit and Alacrity. All in all, it is too early to tell how this change will affect this spec, however, I doubt Bioware will intentionally try to make a class unplayable. Whether it happens or not will remain to be seen.

 

IMO, Accuracy should go away as a Tertiary Stat. The only reason it exists is so that you can't stack Crit or Alacrity to high heavens, but why limit us? I want to see my GCD go down to 1.2s and even 1s or I want to see 15k+ Crits at a 30% chance on my high damaging abilities! It's not like we don't already crit for high numbers and not screw with mechanics or boss kill times... So just Remove Accuracy, and let us play with Crit and Alacrity to find the best balance between the two for max DPS.

[KeyboardNinja]

This is also considering the fact that Virulence and DF are, in my opinion, over performing compared to other dps classes.

 

Something to think about here…

 

There's currently a lot of "prejudice" in the meta caused by many, many high skill players simply not playing certain specs. Most of the unfavored specs are in a better place than most people believe. Marksmanship, for example, is actually competitive with Virulence when correctly played! It's just that very few people play it optimally (most use a rotation which either doesn't use enough Snipe, delays Ambush, delays Sniper Volley, or some combination of the above). Moving outside snipers to other ranged specs, I've gotten some awesome numbers out of Lightning (beats snipers on just about anything 8/10, though obviously trash for both apex bosses). Operatives have basically all glommed onto Concealment as the one true spec, but Lethality actually bests it on a huge percentage of the fights in the right hands (e.g. mid-500s on Core burn). Powertechs go all AP-happy, forgetting that Pyro actually does much higher sustained damage.

 

Looping back to Virulence, I really don't think it's over-performing. It seems like it is, because most of the really insanely good snipers out there are playing Virulence. In general though, due to the immobility, the rigidity of the rotation and the low burst, I feel like Virulence needs to be ahead of IO and only slightly behind Madness (if Madness were correctly balanced). By that metric, it's doing just fine.

[SnickerJew]

Something to think about here…

 

There's currently a lot of "prejudice" in the meta caused by many, many high skill players simply not playing certain specs. Most of the unfavored specs are in a better place than most people believe. Marksmanship, for example, is actually competitive with Virulence when correctly played! It's just that very few people play it optimally (most use a rotation which either doesn't use enough Snipe, delays Ambush, delays Sniper Volley, or some combination of the above). Moving outside snipers to other ranged specs, I've gotten some awesome numbers out of Lightning (beats snipers on just about anything 8/10, though obviously trash for both apex bosses). Operatives have basically all glommed onto Concealment as the one true spec, but Lethality actually bests it on a huge percentage of the fights in the right hands (e.g. mid-500s on Core burn). Powertechs go all AP-happy, forgetting that Pyro actually does much higher sustained damage.

 

Looping back to Virulence, I really don't think it's over-performing. It seems like it is, because most of the really insanely good snipers out there are playing Virulence. In general though, due to the immobility, the rigidity of the rotation and the low burst, I feel like Virulence needs to be ahead of IO and only slightly behind Madness (if Madness were correctly balanced). By that metric, it's doing just fine.

 

Agreed with 99% of that, but I can tell you Concealment on core is pretty dreamy as well. I've done 4.1k DPS as Concealment on that ball of dummy parse.

[Whojoo]

Something to think about here…

 

There's currently a lot of "prejudice" in the meta caused by many, many high skill players simply not playing certain specs. Most of the unfavored specs are in a better place than most people believe. Marksmanship, for example, is actually competitive with Virulence when correctly played! It's just that very few people play it optimally (most use a rotation which either doesn't use enough Snipe, delays Ambush, delays Sniper Volley, or some combination of the above). Moving outside snipers to other ranged specs, I've gotten some awesome numbers out of Lightning (beats snipers on just about anything 8/10, though obviously trash for both apex bosses). Operatives have basically all glommed onto Concealment as the one true spec, but Lethality actually bests it on a huge percentage of the fights in the right hands (e.g. mid-500s on Core burn). Powertechs go all AP-happy, forgetting that Pyro actually does much higher sustained damage.

 

Looping back to Virulence, I really don't think it's over-performing. It seems like it is, because most of the really insanely good snipers out there are playing Virulence. In general though, due to the immobility, the rigidity of the rotation and the low burst, I feel like Virulence needs to be ahead of IO and only slightly behind Madness (if Madness were correctly balanced). By that metric, it's doing just fine.

 

I wasn't actually listening to what other people call viable and non-viable. I am also not saying that some specs are not viable. I often enough use Marksmanship when it benefits the fight, though I just prefer Virulence (and Engineering for that matter). Not because of the damage, but because of the spec. Same thing with Lethality and Hatred btw, I just prefer those 2.

 

I am comparing with my own results. Ok admitted my Sniper is a bit better geared. But I think Lethality and Hatred, for example, should be closer to what I am hitting with Virulence and vice versa. That would be about a 200 dps drop for Virulence and increase for Lethality and Hatred. (using dummy results)

 

Again, not saying a spec is not viable. I just personally think that Virulence (and IO for that matter) is hitting more than it should do. And some melee less than they should do.

 

Bit more off topic.

Oh and Bioware buff Madness already because this is getting well... Madness But seriously curious to how Madness will perform compared to other specs after the stat changes in 4.0

[KeyboardNinja]

Agreed with 99% of that, but I can tell you Concealment on core is pretty dreamy as well. I've done 4.1k DPS as Concealment on that ball of dummy parse.

 

So I've heard! Haven't tried concealment myself, simply because I like lethality better. The instants, the roll (for squeezing in an extra GCD or two before the pull in), the crispness of the animations (for safer GCDs between aberrations), basically everything about that class lends itself well to the core. I think if AP didn't exist, we would have seen a fair bit of operative stacking in the early days (at least once groups realized that the first phase doesn't matter).

 

Again, not saying a spec is not viable. I just personally think that Virulence (and IO for that matter) is hitting more than it should do. And some melee less than they should do.

 

Agree 100% on Hatred, Lethality and also Madness being significantly below reasonable targets. Madness should be above IO and Virulence, IMO, and Hatred should be higher still (with Lethality falling somewhere between the two). Clearly that's not even remotely the case today. Certainly all three are usable, and they can carry their weight relative to the damage checks in the content, but

Edited October 6, 2015 by KeyboardNinja

[TACeMossie]

Powertechs go all AP-happy, forgetting that Pyro actually does much higher sustained damage.

 

Oh i'm actually using Pyro/Plasmatech whenever I get the chance. Its my preferred spec for 8/10 (and i'd use it on Ruugar too if the mouse droids didn't insta-gib you without AoE Damage Reduction - Pyro's defenses suck), though I prefer Tactics/AP for Revan just cause of all the movement you have to deal with.

[Bonzenaattori]

With what they just posted about Critical giving Lower % for both crit chance, plus Crit multiplier then it currently does, and Virulence/DF needing a good amount of crit to sustain it's rotation, will it even be viable anymore? I ask, because it's my Preferred spec, and I really don't like MM/SS (tho I do use it for certain fights).

 

base accuracy is 100%

if they dont butcher accuracy's value at all in 4.0, then there is a lot more space to build crit instead of going accuracy. So full power + crit or power + alacrity is the main choice.

in pve, if your main style is the "conventional" (hate using that term) 700 or some ridiuclous number of accuracy, you'll be freeing up over 700 of a stat. if you pump all of that into crit, well, im sure the stats will speak for themselves.

If dots spec suffer well thats because dots spec suffer, they naturally have a lot of damage amp rolled into the spec which makes other builds relatively questionable in their design. Especially the 30% health damage amp, which is stupid imo and so undeserved

 

Adapt, i have faith you will.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Bonzenaattori