Drew Karpyshyn back on SWTOR!

[Billupsat]

Except the only reason people liked Revan so much is because they were able to make their own choices on who he is. There were people who didn't like Revan for the simple fact he was canonically a male. There are people with better reasons as that but in the end that was why he was so popular. Revan was whoever you wanted him to be. By making him canon there were bound to people who didn't like the direction on who Revan is. There's people who made Revan someone who mindlessly picks all the dark side options. I'm sure those types hate that Revan wasn't dark.

 

Hardly. There is lots to like about Revan with the canon version established before the novel, but during? after? No. He becomes a tired soap quality villain used for name recognition to bring in Kotor fans and boos sub numbers. Ironically, the did it in such a way it would cause those who subbed for him to leave after their butchery. As OldVengeance says below, they regressed him, they took all the development from kotor 1 and not only trashed it, but they trashed it twice, the second time much more so than the first one. Rational people can accept canon, however, they don't react well to butchery for the sake of butchery.

 

 

In the end what Drew continued on was consistent with Revan as a character. As the mandalorians were taking system by system and the war was raging he decided to take the fight to the mandalorians. The Jedi Masters cautioned against this explaining that it would lead to him falling to the dark side along with those he took with him. Not content to sit idly by he did it anyway leading.. himself and his followers falling to the dark side. From there he created his own sith empire (becoming darth revan) and causing more destruction and death than even the mandalorians caused.

 

No. He didn't, because to get him back to that 'Revan' he had to destroy all the prior progress he had made.

 

It took the council taking him and brain washing him to fight on their side to clean up their mess but this wasn't who Revan was. So when he returns in SWTOR what does he do? Oh, the empire is causing so much death and destruction he can't sit idly by. So he decides to take the fight to the empire bringing Jedi with him in a quest to exterminate everyone with Sith blood in order to end the threat of the Sith for good.. completely consistent with his past actions and behavior.

 

Except again as OldVengeance points out below this Revan should have known better and have learned from his mistakes which would have aligned well with his character arc in Kotor, but no, he didn't. Revan forget all the trials and tribulations he went through and decided the best thing to do was the same thing he did before. Doing the same thing twice and expecting different results is the definition of insanity, so they had to literally make Revan crazy for anything that happened to him after the novel to work.

 

Revan has always been a radical who resorts to extreme methods when conventional ways aren't guaranteed to bring about the end to the current threat. He's the type who will do whatever it takes to bring about peace. The ends justify the means kind of guy.

 

Maybe, pre-Kotor, but that isn't the character if you follow the light side canon for the game. The fact is they had to 'alter' his personality back to fit with their current needs for the plot. Which isn't good writing.

 

P.S. It's been a running theme in the star wars novels and movies that the ends justifying the means is wrong and always leads to pain, destruction, and misery. The problem is you don't seem to like it. I don't think Star Wars is for you. Falling to the dark side changes you. You stop being the person you once were. It's why the movies make it very clear that Vader isn't Anakin and when he turned back to the light he stopped being Vader and became Anakin. You aren't you anymore when you fall. You become someone and something else. Falling to the dark side is equivalent to going insane.

 

Oh boy, where do I start with this hot mess... Firstly, I have never claimed that 'the ends justifying the means' was good, in fact I don't think I've even debated that particular topic with you at all. My points have all been about understanding and their being value in learning about things from different perspectives. The highlighted point above isn't even worthy of discussion as its clearly a bait tactic. Suffice to say, star wars can be for anyone even if they don't agree with all aspects of how the universe is presented in all media. Falling to the dark side may change you, but no that doesn't mean you 'stop' being who you were. Certain attributes and facets are enhanced and others diminished, but no you are still the same person. Even people who are criminally insane are still the same person they were before. Now if we're talking about 'brain injuries' then that is a different story, though by that logic, Revan would never have returned to his former self. The problem you seem to have from my perspective is with their being more than one-note villains in star wars and admitting that ideas potentially foreign to your own preconceived notions are entirely wrong just on the basis them being ideas from an 'evil' group of people. You have to understand evil to fight evil.

 

As for insanity, throughout history you'll find that some of the brightest most innovative people were at least a 'little' touched with it, does that discount all of their contributions? Hardly. And often times in media some of the best villains are clearly insane or sociopathic but guess what? even they are right about some things, does it get discounted just because they are rampantly sociopathic? Maybe to the characters around them, but not the audience.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Billupsat

[Gonalius]

It seems that Bioware drew him back to the team...

 

Alright already! Sheesh, No need to Karp on about it.

[Anzel]

This makes me super happy. Wonderful... wonderful news.

[DarthDymond]

I do have issues with the Revan novel, particularly the overall pacing and its treatment of the Exile (overall I think it is Karpyshyn's weakest novel of the ones I've read), but I've never had a problem with the arc Revan as a character ended up having from KotOR to Revan to SWTOR to SoR. [SPOILERS THROUGH SOR BELOW]

 

I see Revan as being defined by two characteristics / struggles: (1) the way he straddles the line between the Light and the Dark, and (2) his hubris. With that as the underlying concept, his story plays out pretty coherently as a Shakespearean tragedy ("Shakespearean" in that it follows that story template where a character's inability to overcome a defining flaw eventually leads to their downfall - not necessarily in terms of the quality of the writing).

 

Revan was an incredibly talented Force User, who stepped up to the plate during the Mandelorian Wars to try to save the galaxy, but in doing so he began flirting with the Dark Side (seen in his tactics during the war as described in KotOR, his use of the Mass Shadow Generator as described in KotOR II, etc.), and then was driven by his hubris to overreach his ability, going after the source of the Mandalorian threat - the Sith Emperor.

 

From the Mandalorian War onwards, Revan believed he was *the* hero of the Galaxy - that it was his personal duty to save it. While he proved up to that challenge when it came to facing down Mandalore the Ultimate and Darth Malak, he took the wrong lesson away from those successes, he became convinced that he was the only one who could be counted on to protect the galaxy - that it was his destiny - and so he repeatedly tried and failed to stop the Sith Emperor, which led to his ruin (and to the Dark Side) again and again.

 

To switch literary references, the Emperor became his White Whale, and Revan's adamant belief that he and he alone could save the galaxy from the Emperor defined his story. That hubris led to the initial confrontation where he and Malak were placed under the Emperor's control, it led to the second confrontation where the Exile died and he became the Emperor's prisoner for three hundred years, it led to his genocidal plan at the Foundry, and ultimately it led to his doomed schemes as leader of the Revanites - with "I am saving the galaxy" as his constant refrain throughout.

 

Again, it's a coherent and interesting story - that story just happens to be a (Shakespearean) tragedy of a hero who fails to overcome his defining flaw and falls because of it.

[Billupsat]

I do have issues with the Revan novel, particularly the overall pacing and its treatment of the Exile (overall I think it is Karpyshyn's weakest novel of the ones I've read), but I've never had a problem with the arc Revan as a character ended up having from KotOR to Revan to SWTOR to SoR. [SPOILERS THROUGH SOR BELOW]

 

I see Revan as being defined by two characteristics / struggles: (1) the way he straddles the line between the Light and the Dark, and (2) his hubris. With that as the underlying concept, his story plays out pretty coherently as a Shakespearean tragedy ("Shakespearean" in that it follows that story template where a character's inability to overcome a defining flaw eventually leads to their downfall - not necessarily in terms of the quality of the writing).

 

Revan was an incredibly talented Force User, who stepped up to the plate during the Mandelorian Wars to try to save the galaxy, but in doing so he began flirting with the Dark Side (seen in his tactics during the war as described in KotOR, his use of the Mass Shadow Generator as described in KotOR II, etc.), and then was driven by his hubris to overreach his ability, going after the source of the Mandalorian threat - the Sith Emperor.

 

From the Mandalorian War onwards, Revan believed he was *the* hero of the Galaxy - that it was his personal duty to save it. While he proved up to that challenge when it came to facing down Mandalore the Ultimate and Darth Malak, he took the wrong lesson away from those successes, he became convinced that he was the only one who could be counted on to protect the galaxy - that it was his destiny - and so he repeatedly tried and failed to stop the Sith Emperor, which led to his ruin (and to the Dark Side) again and again.

 

To switch literary references, the Emperor became his White Whale, and Revan's adamant belief that he and he alone could save the galaxy from the Emperor defined his story. That hubris led to the initial confrontation where he and Malak were placed under the Emperor's control, it led to the second confrontation where the Exile died and he became the Emperor's prisoner for three hundred years, it led to his genocidal plan at the Foundry, and ultimately it led to his doomed schemes as leader of the Revanites - with "I am saving the galaxy" as his constant refrain throughout.

 

Again, it's a coherent and interesting story - that story just happens to be a (Shakespearean) tragedy of a hero who fails to overcome his defining flaw and falls because of it.

 

That's certainly a less bleak way to look at it. I suppose I could forgive it, if it had half the writing quality of a Shakespearean tragedy. As it is, I could accept that at the end of the foundry and be okay with where Revan ended up. It was his second resurrection through SoR that ruined him for me. While its entertaining enough, I found it trite, and hackneyed. However, most 'back from the dead' stories often are.

 

To put it simply, if they were going for Shakespearean tragedy, Revan and the Exile should have both died acceptable deaths in the Revan novel, but the novel's whole purpose wasn't to tie up the Revan story, it was to concoct a believable tale to port him into Swtor and set up the Jedi Knight story. Suffice to say, it was simply unnecessary and only served to destroy the character in the eyes of the fanbase.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Billupsat

[Gonalius]

Revan was an incredibly talented Force User, who stepped up to the plate during the Mandelorian Wars to try to save the galaxy, but in doing so he began flirting with the Dark Side (seen in his tactics during the war as described in KotOR, his use of the Mass Shadow Generator as described in KotOR II, etc.), and then was driven by his hubris to overreach his ability, going after the source of the Mandalorian threat - the Sith Emperor.

 

One correction: Revan had nothing to do with the Mass Shadow Generator. That was created on the spot by Bao-Dur to take advantage of some unique gravitational anomalies in the Malachor system, and activated by The Exile. Mind you, in KotOR2, The Exile was betrayed by Revan at that point - (S)he was in charge of one smaller fleet to lure in the Mandalorians, whilst Revan was supposed to arrive after, trap the Mando's between their fleets and crush them. Instead it turned out that The Exile's fleet was made up of Republic loyalists, and was left to die, whilst Revan and his bunch of traitors sadly got 'delayed' just enough so that he would be unable to save The Exile's fleet, but in time to defeat the Mandalorians. The book Revan ret-conned that so that Revan was indeed simply late to the party.

[OldVengeance]

It's been a long time since I played Kotor 2, but I thought I remember it saying that Revan gave the order to activate the Mass Shadow Generator, specifically to destroy any of his soldiers that weren't loyal to him. The Jedi History Logs certainly say it was him that did it, but they do get a couple things wrong.

 

Kotor 2 does say that the Republic casualties at Malachor V were intentional on Revan's part either way, though.

Edited September 23, 2015 by OldVengeance

[Billupsat]

It's been a long time since I played Kotor 2, but I thought I remember it saying that Revan gave the order to activate the Mass Shadow Generator, specifically to destroy any of his soldiers that weren't loyal to him. The Jedi History Logs certainly say it was him that did it, but they do get a couple things wrong.

 

Kotor 2 does say that the Republic casualties at Malachor V were intentional on Revan's part either way, though.

 

[Eleonora]

I'm still quite angry how he handled the Exile in Revan and Gravus in Annihilation, but I'm overall a fan of his books and the Bane trilogy, so I'm willing to write Revan off as a fluke.

 

Welcome back, Drew.

 

 

 

 

Really? That makes me happy to hear. At least he listens, as opposed to the author of Aftermath, who recently posted on Twitter that " to those complaining that it's in present tense ha ha ha I don't care and I can't fix it now, suckaz".

 

Yeah I'm reading Aftermath now and oh man is it hard to read because of the present tense.

[Ghenghis-Khan]

Best star wars author if u ask me. Happy to hear hes back. If you have never read Darth Bane. I highly recommend it. path of destruction was awesome. I just wish Bane took over Zannahs body in the end and kept doing so with his later apprentices, that would of been a way better ending. Edited September 24, 2015 by Ghenghis-Khan

[DarthDymond]

I just wish Bane took over Zannahs body in the end and kept doing so with his later apprentices, that would of been a way better ending.

Nah, I enjoyed the Bane books a lot, but the character was already showing plenty of signs of being a Mary Sue - an ending like that would have launched him way too far into Sue territory.

Edited September 24, 2015 by DarthDymond

[sayiaa]

Just thought this was some awesome news about Drew Karpyshyn:

[OldVengeance]

Somehow I missed this post.

Those are ludicrously simplistic characterisations of those ideas.

 

-Apathy, in the sense of inaction, is very often a failing of the Jedi, the amount of handwringing hesitation in the Prequels by Council members regarding Anakin being a perfect example. So concerned with whether or not they were right in their interpretation of prophecy they ignored their own misgivings until it was too late.

 

-Do they not? Perhaps not directly experience it as in fall fully themselves, but the Jedi often hold extremely simplistic views of non-Jedi force philosophies and are wrong-footed when their preconceptions are challenged - the Tatooine portion of the Knight storyline is an excellent example, does your character sound like someone who has a proper appreciation of their enemy's motivations when they can be so clearly shocked at the idea of a Sith driven by anything other than unthinking rage and hatred?

 

-Really? Mind Tricking people all over the joint, manipulating Anakin, withholding information from the democratically-elected leader they are supposed to be serving(at the time, they had no clue at all he was a Sith, so the fact he eventually turned out to be one is no excuse) and in so doing become active participants in the creation of a slave-race bred to die in war, lying to Luke about his father and(by omission) sister; the Jedi are no strangers to deceit, they just refuse to admit to themselves that's what they're doing.

 

-Skipping to the last one; It's certainly one they don't value, but that IS a failing on their part. In most situations, sure, selfless charity is the best option, but not in every case, and it is possible to do more harm than good through unthinking do-goodery. I don't see that teaching as being an exhortation to punch people in the face instead of offer them your helping hand, more a reminder to consider the consequences of your actions and the motivations behind them lest your actions become the cause of harm rather than preventing it.

 

The Jedi are obviously the "good guys" from an external omniscient narrative perspective, but they're not flawless, not even close, and it's not actually difficult to insert yourself into the narrative more and consider different points of view. The stubborn refusal of so many Jedi fanboys to do so, even as an exercise, is hilariously enough a trait they share with the object of their affections.

 

- Being over cautious is not the same as apathy. If anything it's the opposite, apathy would be a lack of concern.

 

- Star Wars is a setting where simple interpretations of other philosophies is supposed to be the correct view in most cases. Certainly it is with the Sith. Lord Praven was a character who's motives made little to no sense anyway. This is a guy who condemned extermination and senseless destruction and for some reason believed being Sith made him above such things. But even if he'd bizarrely never heard of all the times the Sith have reveled in this, he was in the very same conversation where his own master said "My son's death will be avenged on the entire Republic. Billions will die because of you." He apparently suffers from an almost sitcomy level of cluelessness. He's also not a good person regardless. If he joins the Jedi he says that he committed atrocities in service to the dark side.

 

- Mind Tricks are meant to be used to avoid violence. The Jedi Council didn't know about the clone army until Obi-Wan stumbled across it. But if they had, the Supreme Chancellor not being a Sith Lord doesn't make them automatically trustworthy. But I'm even not really sure what you're talking about here because all that stuff is not the same thing as what Kreia said. And if it was, doesn't that mean you're agreeing with me? She's the one who is advocating deceit, I said the Jedi shouldn't value it.

 

- Kreia's lessons were specifically that helping people is weakening them and therefore bad.

Edited September 26, 2015 by OldVengeance

[Agent_Korvus]

Wohoooo. Time for a celebration. Cheese for everyone. If only he were announced as the screenwriter of Episode VIII. Or the lead writer for Jade Empire 2.

 

Anyroad, whatever comes after KotFE will be pretty cool.