Listen to the hardcore players.

[Scan]

I stopped following WoW at all closely ages but I recall hearing that Cataclysm made the game harder which interestingly seems to coincide with a big drop in subs, so I would say it's probably prudent not to listen to the hardcore few. You could amusingly say that the hardcore need to lose their sense of entitlement. I personally don't care much, I just pvp and do some basic dungeon running and entry raids, don't care for months long pve gear grinds.

 

ugh like a dog with a bone I cant leave it when I see posts that do not get it..

 

Look I AM NOT SAYING PANDER TO THE TOP 1% or to just listen to what they want.

 

I am saying to aim the content AT these people, and not at the average player.

 

If you aim it the average player then you will get ALOT of bored players, keep the high achievers interested with complex and difficult content, give them rewards that the casuals want, it keeps the whole system moving and hungry.

[Cameirus]

They are telling me they will stay to see what the endgame is like, but trust me if its as easy to do as all the game has been so far its going to lose a bucket load of subs. These subs wont be the bad players or diehards or even the masses of average players, it will be the high achievers the players that lead.

 

I think you have a misguided opinion of what most people think to be honest.

 

 

Sure in your little isolated world of self proclaimed elitists it may be like that.

 

 

'High achievers' dont lead anything. really they dont, no one worships on the alter of their progression, no one hangs on their every word in the cantina.

 

You think this as an attempt to justify your existience and the time you commit to games.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Yvin
rude

[Scan]

OMG this is the saddest thing I've ever read. I thought maybe you'd just overstated your case a little in the first post, but you actually seem to believe this.

 

There may be this little, I don't know... 5-10% of the playerbase that simply has no life outside of a game, who actually gives a crap about which dork gets the Sword of Righteous Virginity first-- but they are a tiny group that no one else cares about.

 

I hope they have fun-- I do. But I can't imagine how empty your life would have to be to "look up to" someone else in a frigging GAME.

 

My god, that is just so sad.

 

Another post that does not address the point I am making.

 

I am not asking everyone to worship the top 10%.

 

I am not asking the playerbase to to look up to the top players.

 

I am not asking everyone to play like elitists.

 

I am aksing the endgame content to be hard enough to challenge and keep these players playing, nerf it later for the average players when new content is released, then all players get to see the content and the high achievers get their rewards too.

[Grimhand]

TO be honest with all the casuals already apparently quitting....the only ones left to listen to are the hardcores

[hobieone]

hate to break the op's bubble or elite power trip but this game was never meant for hard care players top play. the devs have in the past said repeatedly that this mmo was meant for casual players not the hard core player and were very clear on this point.

[Scan]

I think you have a misguided opinion of what most people think to be honest.

 

 

Sure in your little isolated world of self proclaimed elitists it may be like that.

 

 

'High achievers' dont lead anything. really they dont, no one worships on the alter of their progression, no one hangs on their every word in the cantina.

 

You think this as an attempt to justify your existience and the time you commit to games.

 

I am talking about the bigger picture here about how everyone plays with peers they look up too and friends they want to emulate.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Yvin
removed quote + reply

[alkanterah]

Agreed, finally a half decent reply.

 

I take your point this is about those that play to achieve.

 

RP'ers and social groups aside my point stands.

 

So your point is only with one of the four categories of MMO players. A group that's probably not especially strong in SWTOR due to it's focus. While other games (Vanguard for example) benefited from a stronger focus on achievers Bioware has an opportunity to spread out their attention to a far broader range of players so I simply don't see a hasty retreat of this "uber 1%" having much of an impact.

[Scan]

hate to break the op's bubble or elite power trip but this game was never meant for hard care players top play. the devs have in the past said repeatedly that this mmo was meant for casual players not the hard core player and were very clear on this point.

 

Then this this game is already doomed to fail. You cannot expect this game to reimburse the investment if the player base slowly but surely fades away, which will happen if the chain of effect im trying to explain breaks down.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Scan

[Radiatonia]

I beg to differ, this could not be anymore closer to WoW than any game so far.

 

Im not just talking about difficulty level in operations (raids) I would like to see freeform space combat, MUCH more difficult levelling curves, we should not be seeing the first 50 until the second month of subs imho.

 

Aiming the game at the 50-60% ability mark will leave many people bored, I know people that have one lvl 50 and another lvl 35.

 

They are telling me they will stay to see what the endgame is like, but trust me if its as easy to do as all the game has been so far its going to lose a bucket load of subs. These subs wont be the bad players or diehards or even the masses of average players, it will be the high achievers the players that lead.

 

Sure the main player base will be here for a few months, but soon the gaming world will look at SW:TOR as being a nub game, a game for people that fail at mmo's.

 

I am a SW geek, I played Ultima Online before trammel, I know mmo's.

 

I think I am banging my head against the wall, I also bet im going to see another post from someone saying, "Elitists ruin mmo communities, the OP is a snob and were better off without them."

 

/sigh

 

If they aren't in already, raid difficulties are coming. The stated intent, back in beta, was, I believe, to let people choose what level of difficulty they wanted to do the same content. IE: Not WoW style "You get half the story" stuff, i'm assuming, if you play normal. There were already difficulty settings in beta, too.

 

Freeform space combat would be great. But having looked carefully at it in beta, it's nowhere near ready to go. No mobs on your side appear to even do damage, or target NPC's in a way that will damage them. And that's just the simplest issue I can think of.

 

I too would welcome it. More varied content is great. And even setting that aside, it'd be great if we received a bunch of missions that basically said "Here's your fleet. Here's theres. Have fun.". Which isn't really doable under the current system.

 

 

Wanting a higher level of difficulty in leveling is stupid. I hate to sound insulting, but that's what it is. The game has several spikes in difficulty, starting around 20 or 30, depending on how well you built your character. And leveling starts slowing down quite a bit around then. I've said this before and i'll say it again, people pay to have fun, not to be frustrated.

 

This is why games like FFXI never really took the market share that WoW did. They're nice products due to their insane difficulty, and the painfulness of just playing it regularly.

 

 

Again, no-one cares about the "high achievers", or "players that lead". Whatever that means.

 

Typically, the week after a raiding guild disbands, two more pop up in its place. That's the way it is, and that's the way it's always going to be until a developer comes out with some sort of in-game networked social system that lends some form of notability to playing the game. Any achievements you obtain are ultimately, only significant to you and your circle of friends alone.

 

This is even more-so true in TOR, since the "journey" is part of the fun. You're not playing a questathon MMO with no background on what you're doing. There's a point to everything, and just about every class ties together into a larger story by the end.

 

 

Pretty sure no-one cares that some other group of people think that TOR is a "nub game". Insults get thrown around by fan-boys on every forum. Go look on some of the games forums that hold a large market share at the moment, you'll see people trashing them for random, and sometimes untrue beliefs.

 

Ditto for "people that fail at MMO's". There is no fail.

 

MMO's offer varied levels and types of content. Fallen Earth is a sandbox post-apoc game with no real dedicated instanced content. Darkfall and EVE are hardcore PVPer paradises. WoW and EQ are for people who like, in the case of the former, a stream-lined approach to conventional EQ era MMO's, while EQ is a nostalgia trip.

 

I'm sure you get the idea.

 

 

 

I played UO too. They don't make games like that anymore, unfortunately. Mostly because UO isn't really a "MMO" by todays standards. It had more in common with MUD's, really, due to the open world nature of it.

 

Also, it was a griefing paradise, which isn't a good thing by todays standards. I have fond memories of making a character who GMed in the ability to make poisoned cakes. I would then travel too and announce that "Chef De'light!" had arrived at the nearest social hub, and start dropping normal cakes, followed by the occasional lethally poisoned cake.

 

Until they nerfed poisons a bit, i'm sure you could guess what happened next. Especially since UO took a very hardcore approach to gear dropping. That game didn't have the friendliest atmosphere about it. It was entirely possible to kill someone, kill their pet, cook the pet, and eat it in front of their (player) ghost while they literally wailed in misery in front of you.

 

 

 

And yeah, people are calling you a snob and elitist because you really are acting like one. You have completely unrealistic expectations, that would screw over like ninety percent of the playerbase, at least.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Radiatonia

[portalblam]

gonna get hated for this but most hardcore gamers i meet are total jerks I: dont know if i would want all there ideas becoming part of the game

[Wiqd]

What's really funny is that if a hardcore game was ever made, casual / bads would just flock to it since it's the latest / greatest thing out, cry and whine about it until it gets nerfed, then leave it be.

 

Yes this game isn't for the hardcore and most can accept that. But why can people not accept that hardcore DO want a game made for them instead of trying to change every game that has a semblance of challenge to it into a nerfed, instant gratification wonderworld?

[Kolbenito]

Some people got to 50, whoopdeedoo. I mean grats, but all that means is you were in EGA and pissed away the week before Christmas with your fat butt in a chair instead of enjoying the holiday.

 

Down some world first kills on some bosses raiders or get a skill based achievement in PVP. Getting to max level by no lifing it over Christmas launch doesnt mean ****.

[PibbyPib]

Another post that does not address the point I am making.

 

I am not asking everyone to worship the top 10%.

 

I am not asking the playerbase to to look up to the top players.

 

I am not asking everyone to play like elitists.

 

I am aksing the endgame content to be hard enough to challenge and keep these players playing, nerf it later for the average players when new content is released, then all players get to see the content and the high achievers get their rewards too.

 

I understand perfectly what you're saying. It's the same stupid ******** that self-described "hardcore players" have been spouting forever:

 

"Focus your time on pleasing us! The fun will trickle down!".

 

If the devs DO end up spending their development time trying to please this tiny minority, they only chew through the content in a literal RACE (you've said yourself it's all about who gets this or that first), then demand something more. And bigger.

 

And once the game is so top heavy that the meat of the game is turned to mush and normal people (the actual customer base) can't get into it anymore, the "hardcore" crowd migrates off to the new toy and starts the process all over again, as we see here.

 

If you want something hardcore, play EVE. There were no hardcore gamers in WoW, and there never will be any in a mainstream MMO like this one. It's like asking for a gourmet bologna sandwich.

Edited December 27, 2011 by PibbyPib

[Radiatonia]

This just in, hardcore players actually believe in trickle down economics.

[Israel]

I'm a hardcore gamer in the truest sense... and I completely disagree with the OP. The game has to be generally easy if they want to make a lot of money and appeal to the masses... but you still need to put in hardcore content for the hardcore...

 

Nevertheless, you cannot gear this game completely towards a hardcore audience. You will kill the game.

[Valethar]

 

In a financial perspective it is extremely wrong to cater to only 1% of your game population.

 

 

There is a precedence for this. Just look at the US Govt. They catered to the 'Elite 1%' and are now bankrupt.

 

Hopefully BioWare is smarter than that.

 

The 'elite' players don't drive the game. If they did, only 'elite' players would be playing them, instead of spending their time whining on forums about no one listening to them.

[Scan]

Again, no-one cares about the "high achievers", or "players that lead". Whatever that means.

 

I really appreciate the post, you talk alot fo sense, love the nostalgic trip down UO lane too.

 

However, you do not seem to get my point either, do you respect and wish to emulate the players you play with? Those that do well I mean, achieve a quest reward or title of some sort.

 

If yes then you look up to that player, this player keeps YOU playing, you are not looking up to the TOP 1% but those directly equal to you and maybe a bit above.

 

..but.. In turn they look to other players and other peers, all the way to the top.

 

Now do you see it?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Scan

[Wiqd]

If you want something hardcore, play EVE. There were no hardcore gamers in WoW, and there never will be any in a mainstream MMO like this one. It's like asking for a gourmet bologna sandwich.

 

Problem is even Eve has nerfed itself to make the point of entry easier for people because the new people were too stupid to understand it. It's the same thing over and over again. Challenge gets nerfed into oblivion because people are too dumb to understand mechanics.

[zuile]

ugh like a dog with a bone I cant leave it when I see posts that do not get it..

 

Look I AM NOT SAYING PANDER TO THE TOP 1% or to just listen to what they want.

 

I am saying to aim the content AT these people, and not at the average player.

 

If you aim it the average player then you will get ALOT of bored players, keep the high achievers interested with complex and difficult content, give them rewards that the casuals want, it keeps the whole system moving and hungry.

 

No it doesn't. I mean how does that, why would people stay because people that are not them have rewards they want? You'd get more people staying if most people could get the fancy new shiny stuff, a hard mode for the 1337 really seems like it'd be a courtesy more than a necessity.

 

Why would you get a lot of bored players if it's aimed at the average player? The average player is the majority, so it's your top players only who might be bored, for the rest the content would be challenging and thus not boring.

 

This is simple, design for the 1% and average player will never get the shiny because they aren't good enough so they will leave, have fun making money on a tiny sub base. Design for the majority and the average player will stay because they can get the shiny and it's still challenging for them because they aren't really good.

 

Thus there's no real need for a raid to start off "hard", that's only a courtesy if you want an extra 1% subs, doesn't matter in the long run.

 

Awesome player's hard=average player impossible

Average player hard=Awesome player easy

 

If you're aiming content at the 1% how is that not catering to them btw? You've got weird definitions for things. Your thread is even "listen to the hardcore players" you know what they always so, it's not like they aren't predictable it's "x is too easy" "make epics rare" blabla, so how is listening to them not catering to them when if you don't do what they say that's "not listening to them", because they will call it that.

 

Also the how "people look up to higher players" like a ladder thing is just lololol, sorry for the lack of manners, but it's really hahaha. Your premise is wrong from the start, thus you will say "no one gets it", we get it we just think it's silly, sorry but that's that. Players care about the shiny items, not who has the shiny items, it's the items that matter.

Edited December 27, 2011 by zuile

[Scan]

I'm a hardcore gamer in the truest sense... and I completely disagree with the OP. The game has to be generally easy if they want to make a lot of money and appeal to the masses... but you still need to put in hardcore content for the hardcore...

 

Nevertheless, you cannot gear this game completely towards a hardcore audience. You will kill the game.

 

I am not asking for the WHOLE game to be geared to the highest achievers.

 

Although you agree with me you still go against me.

 

I am saying the endgame, the hardest instance should be hard, and not nerfed UNTIL new content is out to take its place, then it can be nerfed so the tourists can see it all.

[Gomla]

As a bloke that works from home, has kids at high school and University and a wife that works looong hours (how she enjoys being a nurse i'll never know) so I do spend a hell of a long, loooong, time on my games. I also started gaming when I was 5 in 1984 and started on MMO's the day UO opened it's new and shiny doors. So i'm at the point where I most probably am classed as "hardcore" (although I do hate that label, we're all gamers no one "set" is special we just have more time and/or have been doing it longer).

 

The days of "casual" players looking up in awe at someone with the top tier of gear is long gone.

 

I stopped caring about what other people do in games about the same time I found out what my man tackle was used for. That is when I realised there are more important things to life.

 

Some of those "casuals" and some of the "hardcore" and the many in between have jobs, wives, husbands, partners, kids, bills, pets and more than likely irritating as hell neighbours....

 

The last thing on their minds when they log in to a game they play to relax is ... "oooh I must have that I have to have that gimme gimme gimme".

 

I have no idea where you have this mindset that people actually look up to other players and want to emulate them.

 

I'll grant you there are some but not enough to warrant content being aimed at a small selection of us.

[Scan]

.. why would people stay because people that are not them have rewards they want? You'd get more people staying if most people could get the fancy new shiny stuff.

 

When the shiney is easy to attain it loses it luster.

 

The shiny HAS to be hard to attain, it has to be aimed at the percentage of players that will keep rare. If everyone had a ton of gold in their respective back gardens, gold would would be worthless.

[Phenyr]

As a bloke that works from home, has kids at high school and University and a wife that works looong hours (how she enjoys being a nurse i'll never know) so I do spend a hell of a long, loooong, time on my games. I also started gaming when I was 5 in 1984 and started on MMO's the day UO opened it's new and shiny doors. So i'm at the point where I most probably am classed as "hardcore" (although I do hate that label, we're all gamers no one "set" is special we just have more time and/or have been doing it longer).

 

The days of "casual" players looking up in awe at someone with the top tier of gear is long gone.

 

I stopped caring about what other people do in games about the same time I found out what my man tackle was used for. That is when I realised there are more important things to life.

 

Some of those "casuals" and some of the "hardcore" and the many in between have jobs, wives, husbands, partners, kids, bills, pets and more than likely irritating as hell neighbours....

 

The last thing on their minds when they log in to a game they play to relax is ... "oooh I must have that I have to have that gimme gimme gimme".

 

I have no idea where you have this mindset that people actually look up to other players and want to emulate them.

 

I'll grant you there are some but not enough to warrant content being aimed at a small selection of us.

 

+1

 

/ thread

[CalebG]

There are 3 seperate demographics for most MMOs. The Casual, the Normal, the Hardcore.

 

Usually, that is the order of the least vocal to the most, which usually means that the order is reversed when it comes to the group that experiences satisfaction based on their requests, corresponding to their playstyle.

 

But that doesn't mean the developers are not listening.

 

In this case, they are expending the game horizontally, adding more features first, while developing on more vertical content which might already be there. Developers have a content roadmap, in which they adhere to to ensure a smooth flow of content. There is no point in releasing what they have now, only to have the hardcore finish it in a month, and have the casuals and normals take 6 months to a year to do so.

 

So, if you consider yourself hardcore and are waiting for new content, patience.

[Travisdk]

As a bloke that works from home, has kids at high school and University and a wife that works looong hours (how she enjoys being a nurse i'll never know) so I do spend a hell of a long, loooong, time on my games. I also started gaming when I was 5 in 1984 and started on MMO's the day UO opened it's new and shiny doors. So i'm at the point where I most probably am classed as "hardcore" (although I do hate that label, we're all gamers no one "set" is special we just have more time and/or have been doing it longer).

 

The days of "casual" players looking up in awe at someone with the top tier of gear is long gone.

 

I stopped caring about what other people do in games about the same time I found out what my man tackle was used for. That is when I realised there are more important things to life.

 

Some of those "casuals" and some of the "hardcore" and the many in between have jobs, wives, husbands, partners, kids, bills, pets and more than likely irritating as hell neighbours....

 

The last thing on their minds when they log in to a game they play to relax is ... "oooh I must have that I have to have that gimme gimme gimme".

 

I have no idea where you have this mindset that people actually look up to other players and want to emulate them.

 

I'll grant you there are some but not enough to warrant content being aimed at a small selection of us.

Best post ever. /Thread