Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

mjuul · January 13, 2012

The 'tooltip' of Saber strike says, in torhead.com that it deals 224 - 274 weapon damage spread across a flurry of 3 melee attacks. That damage is then divided by the 3 hits. If you actually look at the damage of Saber strike, you'll see that the first hit does 1/3 the last hit, the second hit does 2/3 the damage of the last hit, and the last hit hits the hardest. This is again easy enough to see by just using the power in question. That's what the coefficients are saying.

This is simply not true. As Kitru pointed out (even with a nice example), the numbers that pop up are added to eachother as the attack finishes.

The first number indicates the damage of your first hit.

The second number indicates the sum of damage from your first + second hit.

The third number is the total damage inflicted from first hit + second hit + third hit.

This is easily testable.

Say we use the 224 - 274 saber strike on some guy. When all damage is dealt, the damage (disregarding armor) should be in this range, due to the ability doing a TOTAL of 224 - 274. As an example lets say that the first number that pops up is 80, the next number is 166, and then final number is 254. This does not mean that you dealt 500 damage (obviously, as this isn't in the ability's range of damage. It means you dealt 254 damage. The guy in question will have lost 254 hp.

You can, and probably should, go test this in-game yourself, as I suspect you won't believe it otherwise.

To sum up:

1. The damage is spread evenly across all 3 saber strike attacks.

2. The numbers shown, are added to eachother, so that the final number is the actual sum of damage.

Edited January 13, 2012 by mjuul

Skulltap · January 13, 2012

I'm going to have to agree with Kitru's reasoning on this subject. While having a healthy amount of Endurance will not be frowned upon, the threat generation we'll need with a good group of DPSers cannot be ignored.

Looking at SS to generate an understanding of baseline Willpower increases is a good idea, since it won't get more basic than that. I have not taken the time to crunch numbers, but I'd consider Kitru's math to be, honestly, correct. Besides, we shouldn't be relying on SS to generate our threat in the first place. With the 31/0/10 build Slow Time, Project, Force Breach, and DS will be fulfilling the threat generation needs. With more base damage from these abilities we should see higher threat gains from Willpower addition regardless of how it specifically effects SS.

I'd say that if you're a fresh 50, which I'm still working towards, it is acceptable to take Endurance. You will soon realize, though, that the amount of damage you're doing is considerably less than the others in your group. With that understanding alone we see the need to increase Accuracy by 10% as well as increase Willpower to a level where holding threat off of your good group isn't something you need to struggle for.

Historically in MMOs threat generation for tanks can be graphed with a burst followed by linear gain. This gain isn't the same for other roles in your group. What we have to focus on is the burst. Leaving damage off of the target while you gain threat will end up gimping you at the end of the fight, making your threat generation the problem from the get-go.

If you're uncomfortable with tanking with not a lot of HP then get more endurance, but be wary of ignoring your damage output outright as that will nullify how effective you are no matter how hard of a hit you can take.

Wuzseen · January 13, 2012

Mindlessly stacking any stat is not how a tank should ever be geared. Both camps here clearly have that understood.

But you have to consider a tanks role. Your primary job is to hold threat and mitigate incoming damage. DPS is secondary. Yet this is an interesting dynamic, as increasing DPS is paramount for keeping threat.

When you can't hold threat you need to reassess your gearing and/or spec, maybe this means more willpower, who knows! When you're holding threat--increase your mitigation. DPS just comes naturally and is not, nor should it be, a concern.

For example, I swapped to a Force In Balance spec from a Slow Time spec. Best decision I've made yet on my Shadow. Despite less frequent AoEs I've held threat on AoE fights much better. This was better than any stat decision I've made.

But between Endurance and Willpower, I am neither concerned nor giving it a thought over what is my main priority. These stats pale in comparison to the mitigation gained from Defense, Shield, and Absorption. And don't forget we still need accuracy! As someone stated above, the fact is the stats we need come on Endurance heavy gear. You can retool some things here and there, but you are retooling because you are high on X mitigation stat. If the result of that is higher endurance or will power so be it.

It's all a balancing act and is definitely down to choice. What gets the baddie down? You have to do what you have to do.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Wuzseen

oddmyth · January 13, 2012

You need to look over those numbers again. Double strike specifically say 'Hits twice, deals X damage PER hit' And the coefficients tell that tale. DoT, and channeled attacks do not work that way.

Yes and it also says that DS hits for something like 600, which is why you will see 300 on the first hit and 600 on the second hit. The ability in totality hits for 600, 2 hits of 300 each.

Coefficients are not the values that show up on your screen, the base values of your attacks are what are shown on your screen. You can easily test this by increasing your willpower or other DPS stat (like power) and then double checking your tool tips before and after. Your coefficients aren't added to the value your shown in game, they are added when you use the power, against the enemy.

Coefficients are the values that show up on your screen. For SS the coefficients are 1/3, 2/3's and 1 respectively. Thus the total damage of the ability is displayed in additive 3rds on your screen. If SS actually hit for 274*3=822 dmg FOR ZERO FORCE, then there would never be any reason to use any other abilities! Hell I'll take a 25 force cost DS that does 1200 dmg anyday, but its not true, otherwise I would be killing Sorcs in less than 10GCD's, but I'm not.

Edited January 13, 2012 by oddmyth

Arbegla · January 13, 2012

This is simply not true. As Kitru pointed out (even with a nice example), the numbers that pop up are added to eachother as the attack finishes.

The first number indicates the damage of your first hit.
The second number indicates the sum of damage from your first + second hit.
The third number is the total damage inflicted from first hit + second hit + third hit.

This is easily testable.
Say we use the 224 - 274 saber strike on some guy. When all damage is dealt, the damage (disregarding armor) should be in this range, due to the ability doing a TOTAL of 224 - 274. As an example lets say that the first number that pops up is 80, the next number is 166, and then final number is 254. This does not mean that you dealt 500 damage (obviously, as this isn't in the ability's range of damage. It means you dealt 254 damage. The guy in question will have lost 254 hp.

You can, and probably should, go test this in-game yourself, as I suspect you won't believe it otherwise.

To sum up:

1. The damage is spread evenly across all 3 saber strike attacks.

2. The numbers shown, are added to eachother, so that the final number is the actual sum of damage.

That's actually exactly what I'm saying as well. Not that the attack would deal 500 damage, but that that damage is divided in a way to scale by thirds (if the first attack did 80, then the third attack would deal close to 3 times that, which you've shown by 254) That is what the coefficients are showing, and what your saying it shows in game.

Saber strikes 'total' damage is figured out by this formula:

X = (weapon damage + (willpower * .2))

Then when it strikes, the first hit deals 1/3 of the damage, the second deals 2/3rds of the damage, and the last hit is 3/3rds, or the total amount dealt, which is what the coefficients are showing, and exactly what i said.

TK Thrust damage is figured out by this formula (which affects the overall damage NOT per tick, I've tested this in game)

X = Base damage + (((Force power + (willpower * .2)) * .79)

Now, I was mistaken about the tooltips in game and they actually show your base damage + coefficients, so its easy enough to figure out on your own. Test out the numbers, and then use your own powers, TK Thrust's coefficient affects the overall damage, not the damage per tick.

So knowing the above, my DPS figures if 200 willpower equaling 26.7DPS is pretty much spot on (as I'm just using the willpower part of the equation, as force power would be unaffected)

Edited January 13, 2012 by Arbegla

Arbegla · January 13, 2012

Coefficients are the values that show up on your screen. For SS the coefficients are 1/3, 2/3's and 1 respectively. Thus the total damage of the ability is displayed in additive 3rds on your screen. If SS actually hit for 274*3=822 dmg FOR ZERO FORCE, then there would never be any reason to use any other abilities! Hell I'll take a 25 force cost DS that does 1200 dmg anyday, but its not true, otherwise I would be killing Sorcs in less than 10GCD's, but I'm not.

The value that shows up on your screen is the base damage + the coefficient, not just coefficients. Its a combination of the 2. You can easily show this by removing your gear, and checking your tool tips, then adding your gear back on, and double checking your tool tips. The numbers will change as your adding or removing your gear.

And you can then figure out exactly what is happening by the gear you add, and what stats are on it. Pretty sure that will show exactly the formulas I just posted.

Kitru · January 13, 2012

Pretty sure that will show exactly the formulas I just posted.

If you actually tried this out, you'd see how wrong you are. I just did it with my boots:

TK Throw went from 1781 to 1828. Saber Strike went from 552-716 to 566-730. TK Throw gained 47 damage. Saber Strike gained 14 damage. That's 3.3 times as much damage gained from the same amount of Willpower.

As I have said time and time again, you can't even get the mechanics right so stop trying to talk about them.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Kitru

Arbegla · January 14, 2012

If you actually tried this out, you'd see how wrong you are. I just did it with my boots:

TK Throw went from 1781 to 1828. Saber Strike went from 552-716 to 566-730. TK Throw gained 47 damage. Saber Strike gained 14 damage. That's 3.3 times as much damage gained from the same amount of Willpower.

As I have said time and time again, you can't even get the mechanics right so stop trying to talk about them.

Assuming 14 points gained on saber strike, that means your boots had about 70 willpower on them. Now, for that to translate into a 3.3x gain on TK Thrust, you'd need something oh, lets just follow the equation:

X = Base damage + (((Force power + (willpower * .2)) * .79)

Now, you didn't say what base damage you have, or even what bonuses were on the boots, but we do know the gain, which is 47 so just see if we can fill in the blanks. We know willpower is about 70 (due to the benefit from Saber Strike)

So, X = would then equal 47, due to that being the difference in damage between the 2 numbers.

47 = (Force power + (70 * .2)) * .79

Divide both sides by .79 and you have:

59.49 = Force power + (70 * .2))

Solve for willpower and you have:

59.49 = force power + 14

Subtract 14 from each side, and you have

45.49 = force power

Your boots wouldn't by chance by 45.5 (could be rounded to 46) power on them would they?

TK throw also benefits from Force Power, where Saber Strike wouldn't. So, unless your going to list your exact stats from your boots, you haven't disproved my point, you merely went half way, yet again.

I'm willing to bet your boots have Force Power (45 or 46 force power to be exact) on them, as the equation for Saber strike is literally Weapon damage + bonus damage where TK Thrust's gains a pretty high amount of a bonus from Force power, and a very minor amount from willpower.

My calucations showing a DPS increase didn't include Force Power (or really, even 'Power' itself, be it Force, Tech or normal) and just included willpower.

So, what bonuses are on your boots?

Edited January 14, 2012 by Arbegla

Kitru · January 14, 2012

Your boots wouldn't by chance by 45.5 (could be rounded to 46) power on them would they?

Nope, and I can tell you this without checking them because only one equipment slot has the "Force Power" stat on it: your weapon. This is because Force Power and Tech Power are provided by weapons exclusively to provide the same benefit to Tech and Force powers that weapons provide to melee/ranged attacks.

Now, after actually checking, I can tell you that my boots have 87 Endurance, 74 Willpower, 39 Shield Rating, and 48 Defense Rating. Of course, the only way my boots could get any kind of "Power" on them would be straight "Power" and that would benefit *all* of my attacks, not just TK Throw. It's flat out impossible to get Force Power or Tech Power on anything except for your weapon.

In short, I'm right; you're wrong. Get over it.

Tyrandaa · January 14, 2012

It's flat out impossible to get Force Power or Tech Power on anything except for your weapon.

Don't forget about the Focus/Shield slot

Kitru · January 14, 2012

Don't forget about the Focus/Shield slot

True. I guess the "better" way to say it would be on your MH and OH slots.

Arbegla · January 14, 2012

Nope, and I can tell you this without checking them because only one equipment slot has the "Force Power" stat on it: your weapon. This is because Force Power and Tech Power are provided by weapons exclusively to provide the same benefit to Tech and Force powers that weapons provide to melee/ranged attacks.

Force Power and Power (the rating) affect the same stats. Force and tech power are limited to weapons, but the 'power' stat could be on any gear.

Thank you for yet AGAIN only paying attention to half of my information.

Now, after actually checking, I can tell you that my boots have 87 Endurance, 74 Willpower, 39 Shield Rating, and 48 Defense Rating. Of course, the only way my boots could get any kind of "Power" on them would be straight "Power" and that would benefit *all* of my attacks, not just TK Throw. It's flat out impossible to get Force Power or Tech Power on anything except for your weapon.

So my equation showed about a 70-ish willpower stat on your boots, which is reflected in Saber strike (gaining about 14 damage, 74 willpower would increase it by 14.8, and the tool tips are funky with rounding)

In short, I'm right; you're wrong. Get over it.

No, your just the loudest voice in the room. My saber strike equation was almost spot on.

So.. how exactly are you right? My equations for damage showed a pretty good estimate of your willpower bonus (which turned out to be within a rounding error of a tool tip)

But instead of trying to help me figure this out more, you insist on slinging insults, and refusing to answer questions directed at you.

Like for example, if my assumption are so flawed and incorrect all the time, why even use them?

If your right, then why haven't you shown actual math to back up said claim? When i showed the DPS increase on Project (our hardest hitting attack) Amounting to a mere 13.XX DPS increase, why didn't you jump all over that screaming up and down I'm wrong like you are now?

All you've shown is that you can sling insults, and pretend to know what your talking about without actually showing your work, while other people have actually done the math, shown you the values and proved that while your way might work out in Normal Modes, its flat out impossible to work with in Hard modes.

Current Gear levels are OVER GEARED for normal mode Operations, and Hard mode flash points, so saying 'yep, I'm stacking willpower and doing just fine' doesn't really prove your point either way, when multiple people have said multiple times that you just can not do that in Hard mode operations, and you really never addressed that.

Your gab about 'percent of a percent' was rehashed between me and Drac quite a few pages before you even joined back in. And then you did the math wrong on THAT as well. 9.67/4300 = .0024 which is the number me and drac kept using to show the difference in damages between 16k and 18k hit points. You were measuring the same thing, just with healing. We already went over your 'Well, your obviously always wrong' numbers and proved either way its not that large of an increase to boost endurance.

You have yet to actually SHOW any math on the OVERALL DPS increase of adding 200 willpower. You just keep saying 'No, your math is wrong.' and refusing to show the correct value (you pulled ~50DPS outta the air, but showed no math to back up that claim)

Kitru · January 14, 2012

So my equation showed about a 70-ish willpower stat on your boots, which is reflected in Saber strike (gaining about 14 damage, 74 willpower would increase it by 14.8, and the tool tips are funky with rounding)

Which makes sense considering that I've never disputed how you calculated Saber Strike's contribution. I simply pointed out that you had the contribution on TK Throw completely off.

So.. how exactly are you right? My equations for damage showed a pretty good estimate of your willpower bonus (which turned out to be within a rounding error of a tool tip)

But instead of trying to help me figure this out more, you insist on slinging insults, and refusing to answer questions directed at you.

Because I've spent the a huge number of posts in this threat correcting your flawed math over and over again and you simply come up with more and more outlandish explanations as to how you *could* be correct if you just look through a vastly different skewed interpretation rather than simply accepting Occam's Razor for what it is. I told you that your TK Throw calculation was wrong and then proceeded to demonstrate why from a logical standpoint and, when you attempted in a rather humorous attempt to correct me by simply dumping datamined numbers rather than actually figuring out what was going on, and I corrected you with the real numbers from in game, you countered with the assumption that I must somehow be putting a stat that is only present on MH and OH items on my boots rather than accepting the reality that you were wrong all along. Remember: you claimed I had *Force Power*, not *Power* on my boots because it was supposed to only be benefiting TK Throw.

I *have* tried to help you. You've simply refused to be helped.

Like for example, if my assumption are so flawed and incorrect all the time, why even use them?

Because it wouldn't matter if we were assuming 1000 DPS or 10000 DPS as long as that number was vaguely close to reality. 4300 is close enough to the actual incoming damage numbers in raids that it's a useful approximation. We don't need *specific* numbers; we just need numbers that are *close enough*. As I have said before, it's not your assumptions that are fundamentally flawed: it's your methods, understanding, and analysis. Your assumptions have worked just fine for the purposes of the discussion (except for some of your assumptions as to how the various mechanics work).

If your right, then why haven't you shown actual math to back up said claim? When i showed the DPS increase on Project (our hardest hitting attack) Amounting to a mere 13.XX DPS increase, why didn't you jump all over that screaming up and down I'm wrong like you are now?

If you'd like me to, I can and I will.

All you've shown is that you can sling insults, and pretend to know what your talking about without actually showing your work, while other people have actually done the math, shown you the values and proved that while your way might work out in Normal Modes, its flat out impossible to work with in Hard modes.

No one has done *anything* to prove me wrong in any way. No one has done any *legitimate* math that has proven me wrong. If they had, I would actually have given up the argument. The fact that no legitimate math has occurred, and, in fact, only vague supposition (18k hp isn't enough to tank Hard Mode Ops!) and flawed logic (Endurance decreases damage taken and increases healing received) have done anything to provide a counterargument, and I have soundly taken care of those arguments. The fact that the same arguments come up *over and over again* and get brought down with the same arguments *over and over again* is excellent evidence that there *isn't* any way to disprove what I say since it's impossible to definitively prove a negative.

Current Gear levels are OVER GEARED for normal mode Operations, and Hard mode flash points, so saying 'yep, I'm stacking willpower and doing just fine' doesn't really prove your point either way, when multiple people have said multiple times that you just can not do that in Hard mode operations, and you really never addressed that.

The people that claim that I can't do this in Hard Modes are making suppositions about the effectiveness and requirements of certain levels of Endurance. They haven't generated any proof to support them and I can't provide any proof to discount them beyond my current performance in Normal Modes because my guild hasn't gotten to the Hard Modes yet (not due to gear inadequacies but because the raids are painfully bugged).

You have yet to actually SHOW any math on the OVERALL DPS increase of adding 200 willpower. You just keep saying 'No, your math is wrong.' and refusing to show the correct value (you pulled ~50DPS outta the air, but showed no math to back up that claim)

First off, it's called an estimate for a reason. I didn't do any math and stated as such because I made an educated guess based off of knowledge of the mechanisms the game uses. I don't claim it is going to be spot on, but I can definitely tell you that any contribution that is less than or equal to (much less simply *near* 66% of the given bonus damage quantity).

Now, for the math.

200 Willpower provides 40 bonus damage (5:1 Willpower:Bonus Damage conversion) and 1.4% crit rate. For simplicities sake, since bonus damage is added directly to Saber Strike's damage, we can assume that, at a minimum (re: just spamming Saber Strike and doing nothing else), we are going to get a 26.67 damage increase to overall DPS (40 damage / 1.5 GCD). Your 26.7 damage estimation is only accurate if you only assume that the only attack you use is Saber Strike (which gets less out of any increases to damage than any other regularly used attack we get). This, immediately, proves your number is false because I doubt *anyone* is going to simply spam Saber Strike ad nauseum.

So, the simplest way to determine how much DPS is added is to determine the total coefficients of improvement for each of the attacks and average them over their use in the entire attack string. Since I've already done the attack string math here, I'll be using those percentage values to determine overall value of the specified coefficients (using the easy/easy paradigm). The animation consumption normalized values will then be summed and multiplied by the 40 bonus damage to determine the overall damage contribution. I will be determining what the coefficients are by dividing the damage dealt by the power by the damage of Saber Strike with the same gear on (factoring in talents, such as 75% more damage with TK Throw and PA and Upheaval for Project).

Saber Strike: 39.8% animation consumption * 1.0 coefficient = .398 averaged coefficient

Double Strike: 15% * 1.63 = .2445

Project: 15% * 2.79 = .4185

TK Throw: 10% * 4.93 = .493

Slow Time: 11.1% * 1.05 = .11655

Force Breach: 9.1% * .66 = .06006

(.398 + .2445 + .4185 + .493 + .11655 + .06006) = 1.73

1.73 coefficient * 40 bonus damage = 69.2 DPS

So, 200 Willpower will add about 69 DPS, ignoring the contributions of the 1.4% additional crit rate (assuming no surge, would be about a 1% increase in damage dealt overall). That's more than 2.5 times as much as you expected and even more than my simple estimate, so my "mathless" estimate (which I had expected to be on the conservative side nonetheless) turned out to be more accurate than yours but only because I underestimated the benefits.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Kitru

Arbegla · January 15, 2012

So, the simplest way to determine how much DPS is added is to determine the total coefficients of improvement for each of the attacks and average them over their use in the entire attack string. Since I've already done the attack string math here, I'll be using those percentage values to determine overall value of the specified coefficients (using the easy/easy paradigm). The animation consumption normalized values will then be summed and multiplied by the 40 bonus damage to determine the overall damage contribution. I will be determining what the coefficients are by dividing the damage dealt by the power by the damage of Saber Strike with the same gear on (factoring in talents, such as 75% more damage with TK Throw and PA and Upheaval for Project).

So, your making up coefficients, and then using those numbers to suit your needs? You can't determine the coefficients of the powers when a known coefficient is already figured out. Your basically reinventing the wheel here.

The known coefficients for Each power is as follows (as per torhead, which shows the EXACT coefficients)

Saber Strike = 1.0 (as per both torhead, and the fact its merely weapon damage + bonus damage.)

Double Strike = .74 per hit (as the power hits twice) so 1.48 total Coefficient

Project = 2.26625 (accounting for the upheaval proc 45% chance)

Tk Thrust = .79 per hit, so a total of 3.16 (you were correct on that, and even if you didn't point it out, your increase in willpower (74) vs the bonus damage (47) shows that pretty clearly. this is shown by ((74 * .2) * .79) * 4 = 46.768 which the tool tip would round to 47 damage.

Force Breach = .435

Slow Time = .94

Saber Strike: 39.8% animation consumption * 1.0 coefficient = .398 averaged coefficient
Double Strike: 15% * 1.63 = .2445
Project: 15% * 2.79 = .4185
TK Throw: 10% * 4.93 = .493
Slow Time: 11.1% * 1.05 = .11655
Force Breach: 9.1% * .66 = .06006

Not once do you show a time duration, even on your own post. You just show activation time. Without a time duration, how can you possible come up with a DPS equation? Using the GCD is usually the best way, but even from your own assumptions, your saying that your going to use Project 15% of the time, but TK Thrust 10% of the time, yet you don't want to use Project OR TK Thrust without the proper buffs, which at the root relays on Double Strike, which your also only using 15% of the time, so looking over your post it still doesn't make very much sense.

Using Activation time doesn't help you at all in the grand scheme of figuring out a rotation, especially while you show that your going to use a power X times, for example looking at Double Strike its 3 hits every 9 seconds, with a 3 second wait after every TK Thrust, which interestingly enough is the same time you'll be using Project... Somehow i seriously doubt your going to get a PA proc after every single Double Strike use. With a 50% proc rate, its best to assume that you will get a PA proc after every 2 Double strikes. Meaning you'll be using Double strike twice as much as you'll be using Project, and you'll be using Project 3 times as much as your using TK Thrust.

Your post doesn't even follow the basics of that, it just assumes all of your various procs hit 100% of the time anytime you need them.

Also, there is this nice gem outta your entire post that throws your numbers into much dismay

Sustainability is determined by dividing the 100 starting Force by a net loss to determine how long the use paradigms could be maintained (this does not take any lack of Force at any specific time into consideration, so the number is likely to be substantially lower given the high costs of some abilities (re: Project))

That right there throws nearly all your numbers away because in a real setting, you may not have the force to sustain even your easy/easy paradigms because you may not always have the force to use the powers, and you may not even have the appropriate procs up often enough to use your powers.

So, nice try pulling numbers outta thin air just to try to prove your point, when it really doesn't make much sense either way.

Looking at my estimation for a 30 second 'priority' this is what I used:

Project is used every 10 seconds to help maintain force (and get the 100% crit chance) TK Thrust is used every 30 seconds (so your at 3 stacks of the proc, for maximum damage, and the self heal) Force Breach and Slow time are used every 15 seconds to maintain the debuff and Double strike and Saber Strike are used in between. Double is used to trigger Project procs, and saber is used to conserve force.

Using the above, you can assume 20 GCDs in 30 seconds, 2 each for Force Breach and Slow time, 1 for TK Thrust, 3 for Project which leaves 12 GCDs for Double strike and Saber Strike. To maintain Force and trigger Projects, you'd need to use 8 Double Strikes, and 4 Saber strikes.

The above burns (30*2)+(20*2)+(30)+(39*3)+(23*8) 431 force in 30 seconds, or about 14.36 force/second burn. According to your own post, you can average out your force per second when accounting for DBSD to 11.4 force/second. You'll be able to maintain my rotation for 33.78 seconds.

This is more or less on par when your heavy/easy setting, and allows ample time to build up the needed procs (8 double strikes to build 3 PA procs is more then enough, and once you hit 3 PA procs you just use Saber Strike instead of Double strike, which will conserve force)

For not accounting for Force regeneration at all, i pretty much hit the nail on the head.

(.398 + .2445 + .4185 + .493 + .11655 + .06006) = 1.73
1.73 coefficient * 40 bonus damage = 69.2 DPS

So, 200 Willpower will add about 69 DPS, ignoring the contributions of the 1.4% additional crit rate (assuming no surge, would be about a 1% increase in damage dealt overall). That's more than 2.5 times as much as you expected and even more than my simple estimate, so my "mathless" estimate (which I had expected to be on the conservative side nonetheless) turned out to be more accurate than yours but only because I underestimated the benefits.

Your using coefficients wrong. And its actually proved by yourself when you disproved how i thought TK Thrust worked, and its easy enough to show that (((willpower * .2) * .79) * 4 (ticks)) or in the event of adding 74 willpower, TK thrust would be boosted by 47 damage. According to your own numbers.

Accounting for the 75% damage bonus of Harnessed Shadows when that could be applied after the coefficients are added (and thus also increasing the base damage of the power) is not the correct way to do the math.

Project on the other hand, gets a flat coefficient boost of 25% for being a shadow, which is shown again in torhead.com here:

2 0 init SetHidden: IsHidden=>1
2 0 condition IfCalledByEffect
2 1 action InvokeProjectile: SpellType=>None, Slot=>PrimaryMelee, TravelSpeed=>5
2 2 condition HasAbility: Rank=>1, Comparison=>, Actor=>Caster, AbilitySpec=>2305637630682250467
2 2 action CallEffect: ResultsOption_CombatMathOnly=>1, FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>3, Results=>[ 63,32,1 ], ResultsOption_MatchAll=>1
2 2 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.165, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>1.85, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.205, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Kinetic
2 3 condition Else
2 3 action CallEffect: ResultsOption_CombatMathOnly=>1, FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>3, Results=>[ 63,32,1 ], ResultsOption_MatchAll=>1
2 3 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.136, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>1.56, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.176, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Kinetic

Also, and I know your going to bring this up, accounting for PA giving 100% crit chance to Project in a coefficient equation is again the wrong way to consider things because your not accounting for any base damage. Coefficients are added onto base damage, then multiplied by your surge rating (assuming 100% crit rate) and for a tank, your looking at between 50% (base) or 100% (assuming force potency actually works, which is currently bugged) as most tanks won't be slotting surge rating.

If your a shadow (i/e AbilitySpec=>230563763068225046 which i'm going to assume is this then Project has a coefficient of 1.85, else the coefficient is 1.56, which interestingly enough is about .29 increase, but that could be just an oversight in the equation, or an overall benefit to being a shadow.

So, using the correct coefficients and the correct way to apply them with 200 willpower your looking at:

Saber strike gaining 40 damage

Double strike gaining 59.2 damage

Project gaining 90.65 damage

Tk Thrust gaining 126.4 damage

Force Breach gaining 17.4 damage

Slow time gaining 37.6 damage

Using my priority, as that seems to about follow the 'Kitru Rule' your preaching so hard about, unlike an animation percentage doesn't even come close to accounting for all the various procs and such you need to watch out for and trigger, and you can very easily see how much damage you'll be gaining: (((37.6*2) + (17.4*2) + (126.4) + (90.65*3) + (59.2*8) + (40*4)) / 30) = 38.06DPS. Multiply that by .715% (as that is half the benefit what willpower will give you for crit, and your base crit multiplier is 50%) and you have a total bonus of 38.33.

So, we're both wrong. 40 bonus damage (i/e 200 willpower) is closer to 38DPS increase.

The main difference between this estimate and last time, is I better understand TK Thrust (i/e, you were right, and your own numbers show that) and I better understand Saber strike (as it gains the full benefit of any bonus damage you have, instead of double the damage, which is what i was using earlier)

Kitru · January 15, 2012

So, your making up coefficients, and then using those numbers to suit your needs? You can't determine the coefficients of the powers when a known coefficient is already figured out. Your basically reinventing the wheel here.

I'm drawing the coefficients from the actual numbers provided by the tooltips in game rather than relying on the datamined info provided by TORhead. Personally, I'd rather trust the stuff in the game rather than the stuff datamined, but that's just me: I prefer empiricism to theory.

Thanks to my love for empiricism I actually went out and explicitly determined what the coefficients for the various powers are. I did this by checking Bonus Damage values for both Melee and Force powers before and after removing my boots (74 Willpower; I made sure not to have any outside buffs like Force Valor) to determine the changes in melee and Force bonus damage (these are different since Combat Technique reduces melee bonus damage by 5% but has no effect on Force damage). Melee powers gained 14.1 bonus damage from the 74 Willpower while Force Powers gained 14.9 bonus damage (melee bonus damage = .95 Force bonus damage).

After this, I then consulted the damage of each of the given attacks with and without my boots on and charted their damage changes:

SS: 648 > 634 = 14 damage diff

DS: 1055 > 1033 = 22 damage diff

Project: 1038 > 1011 = 27 damage diff

FB: 428 > 417 = 11 damage diff

ST: 679 > 660 = 19 damage diff

TK: 1828 > 1781 = 47 damage diff

Now, let me be clear: it doesn't matter what TORhead might say the coefficients are. I am drawing these *directly from the game based upon the values in question*. This is empiricism at its best since the game is the truest source of information.

So, to determine the relative coefficients, I then took the difference in damage and divided it by the bonus damage for the power in question (remember that melee and Force powers have a different Bonus Damage increase). Since the game rounds, I did the same (I rounded down with 5s to underestimate actual performance as TOR seems to do).

SS: 14 diff / 14.1 bonus damage = 1.0 coefficient

DS: 22 / 14.1 = 1.56 coefficient

Project: 27 / 14.9 = 1.81 coefficient

FB: 11 / 14.9 = .74 coefficient

ST: 19 / 14.9 = 1.27 coefficient

TK: 47 / 14.9 = 3.15 coefficient

Let me reiterate: this was taken directly from the game. It doesn't matter what TORhead might claim, empirically, this is what the coefficients are without factoring in non-permanent benefits (such as Upheaval and Harnessed Shadows). It's pretty obvious that they differ a *great deal* from the ones you drew from by TORhead which tells us that TORhead doesn't factor in everything. For Double Strike, it seems pretty obvious that TORhead doesn't factor in Applied Force (6% bonus damage with Double Strike) whereas my empirical findings *do* (.74 * 2 * 1.06 = 1.568 rounded down to 1.56). Because of this, we know we can't trust the TORhead numbers so you cannot claim they are the *exact* coefficients at all because it's obvious they are not exact.

Now, two of those coefficients are not applicable at the moment. The passive talents are applied (Applied Force, Force Break) are already applied but the proc'd benefits are not, so we have to do a bit of math.

For TK Throw, we know that Harnessed Shadows provides 75% additional damage as an end multiplier (I've tested this by looking at damage numbers both with and without HS stacks on a target), so the coefficient simply needs to be multiplied by 1.75 in order to determine the "real" coefficient.

Project provides us with a twofold problem since we have Particle Acceleration (a simply 1.5 multiplier) and Upheaval (a 45% chance for 50% of base damage though it *is* modified by all Project damage modifiers including talents and bonus damage, adding 22.5% more damage). If we ignore chance to crit outside of PA procs, this means that Project would receive a 1.725 multiplier to its coefficient (1 + .5 + .225).

So, based off of this *empirical evidence gathered directly from the game*, we can see that the coefficients for all of the attacks are as follows:

SS: 14 diff / 14.1 bonus damage = 1.0 coefficient

DS: 22 / 14.1 = 1.56 coefficient

Project: 27 / 14.9 = 1.81 coefficient * 1.725 procs = 3.12 real coefficient

FB: 11 / 14.9 = .74 coefficient

ST: 19 / 14.9 = 1.27 coefficient

TK: 47 / 14.9 = 3.15 coefficient * 1.75 = 5.5 coefficient

Not once do you show a time duration, even on your own post. You just show activation time. Without a time duration, how can you possible come up with a DPS equation? Using the GCD is usually the best way, but even from your own assumptions, your saying that your going to use Project 15% of the time, but TK Thrust 10% of the time, yet you don't want to use Project OR TK Thrust without the proper buffs, which at the root relays on Double Strike, which your also only using 15% of the time, so looking over your post it still doesn't make very much sense.

Just because you don't understand the methodology doesn't mean it isn't appropriate. I don't need to list a specific time frame for the entire attack string since I am operating under an assumption of continuous action. In other words, it doesn't matter how long you fight for, over any long enough period of time the time consumption values for each power are going to approach the given values. It's the same concept used with mitigation values: it doesn't matter how much damage (time) comes in (goes by) the same percent of damage (time) is mitigated (consumed) by the attacks (actions) that occur. If I use one Double Strike every 30 seconds, it uses up the exact same percentage of time over 3 hours as it would for any 30 second discreet interval (and even if you don't use discreet 30 second intervals, the longer time frame you look at the more the consumption would approach that of any of the specific 30 second intervals). It's really simply math honestly. If you couldn't understand that (or the math involved in the post in question, which I'm pretty sure you're not even understanding since you assume that "1 every 9 seconds" means that the use is immediate rather than at any time within that 9 second window), I can't really help you. If you *want* me to, I can explain that post to you in depth, since you seem to be having problems understanding it.

With a 50% proc rate, its best to assume that you will get a PA proc after every 2 Double strikes.

Not that it's directly relevant to the discussion, but this is fundamentally flawed logic. The chance of getting a proc after 2 Double Strikes is only 75%. There is no "best" to assume since you cannot guarantee that any specific mechanism will actually occur. If I really wanted to get complex I would have created a 50% chance upon any DS use to immediately double the activation time and increase the Force cost by the relevant amount since that would actually be the most applicable way to implement a probabilistic scenario. Personally, I didn't because that would have overcomplicated a post that most people already thought was complex enough.

That right there throws nearly all your numbers away because in a real setting, you may not have the force to sustain even your easy/easy paradigms because you may not always have the force to use the powers, and you may not even have the appropriate procs up often enough to use your powers.

First off, that's a disclaimer that applies specifically to the sustainability time frames and was placed because I recognized that Force consumption happens in discreet quantities, not in a slow drain which is what I was assuming (and what any simple mathematical calculation would assume without going into the realm of simulation).

Secondly, since the disclaimer was specifically put in to account for the discreet v. averaged consumption issue and the greatest single consumption at any one time is 45 Force in a single instant, the problem you're assuming would happen only occurs when you have less than 45 Force. Since the easy/easy paradigm is capable of infinite Force sustainability, we could easily assume that you always have enough Force to spend on any one ability, rendering the disclaimer irrelevant.

For not accounting for Force regeneration at all, i pretty much hit the nail on the head.

But this only applies for the first 30 second of a fight (and still suffers from the problems that the disclaimer was put in there to be relevant to since you're assuming an even burn over 30 seconds, not the burst burn and gain that actually occurs in game, meaning, in all likelihood, you would actually have only about 21 seconds of time before did not have the Force to use Project since your even burn (2.96 Force/sec) would put you below the 39 Force required to use Project at 21 seconds (-2.96 * 21 = -62).). Unless you plan on only counting DPS for the first 30 seconds of a fight and then somehow extrapolating the increased burn rate that you can accomplish there over the next 3-4 minutes, you're overestimating DPS. You need to find what the sustained DPS actually is in order to do so, which is where my easy/easy was coming from.

Also, and I'm quite surprised no one has called me on this, I actually underestimated our Force Regen in that math, largely because I wrote it before I understood the attack mechanics in question as well as what defensive stats would look like at level 50 and the prevalence of multiattacks in the game. With a 25% chance to dodge and a 50% shield chance, you would have a 62.5% chance (.25 + (1 - .25) * .5) of procing DBLS with any given attack. Assuming 2 attacks per GCD (1.33 attacks every second), this means you would actually manage to gain roughly 1.46 additional Force/sec, making total Force regen more accurately 11.76 Force/sec.

Your using coefficients wrong. And its actually proved by yourself when you disproved how i thought TK Thrust worked, and its easy enough to show that (((willpower * .2) * .79) * 4 (ticks)) or in the event of adding 74 willpower, TK thrust would be boosted by 47 damage. According to your own numbers.

What you're saying has no bearing on the math I provided. Whatsoever. You're letting your lack of understanding about my methodology (normalizing the coefficients for their animation time consumption before factoring in the damage dealt) interfere with your analysis of the situation. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just say it. Right now, it's simply becoming more and more apparent you don't know what *I'm* doing so it's impossible for you to offer anything approaching to a legitimate critique. I can assure you that *I* understand what you're doing, which is why I can offer criticisms (and often how I can explicitly tell you you're wrong).

Accounting for the 75% damage bonus of Harnessed Shadows when that could be applied after the coefficients are added (and thus also increasing the base damage of the power) is not the correct way to do the math.

Did you fail elementary school math or something? That math is completely flawless. The only reason you could fail to realize this is if you just haven't learned the basics of algebraic manipulation and multiplication. In a series of multiplied values, as long as the multiplier is applied to the entire source, it doesn't matter where it is applied as long as it is applied to all of the multiplied values before or after they are summed. You're claiming, somehow, that (x + .75 x = 1.75 x) is not true. The sheer audacity of this statement renders me largely incapable of forming a coherent statement. If you don't understand basic mathematics please just leave the conversation and learn them before coming back. I multiply the TK Throw coefficient by 1.75 here because it doesn't matter where I multiply the value (whether before or after I multiply the coefficient by the bonus damage); the two values will be the same regardless: (x * y) * z = x * (y * z).

So, we're both wrong. 40 bonus damage (i/e 200 willpower) is closer to 38DPS increase.

No, you're still wrong. Your coefficients are still wrong (I gathered them empirically rather than relying on a data dump you don't even understand and that doesn't even factor in talents).

Now, I will once again attempt to explain how I'm doing my animation consumption math so that you understand it since you apparently couldn't wrap your head around it the first time so that, when I do the math, your brain doesn't implode and sputter forth with a weakly written rebuttal that demonstrates your lack of comprehension rather than a request for clarification.

I will use Force Breach as the first example since it's the simplest. Force Breach is applies an 18 second debuff, but you want to use it more often than that simply because you need a bit of overlap to give yourself some delay based breathing room. This means you use it once every 16.5 seconds consuming 1.5 seconds of animation time. This means that, over any specific window of time, you will generally use 9.1% (1.5 /16.5) of your time using Force Breach. This same concept applies to all of the other abilities used by a Shadow.

Now, as this applies to the DPS math, you must first realize that consumption percentage represents any given time frame you can imagine, as long as the time frame in question is no shorter than the longest use paradigm assumption (in the case of mine, the 30 second TK Throw cycle means that you need to look at 30 seconds or longer for the consumption values to make sense).

The second thing you must realize is that the total damage of any quantity of time split into animation consumption percentages is equal to the sum of the individual consumption values multiplied by their respective damage modifiers. In essence, if you have an attack that deals 50 damage and takes up 10% of your attack string, that power in question is directly adding 5 DPS to your attack string (5 * .1). If the remainder of your animation consumption (.9) was consumed by an attack that dealt 10 damage for a contribution of 9 DPS (10 * .9), this would mean that your total DPS was 14 DPS.

Now, understanding these two things, you realize that, by dividing and assigning each power by the amount of animation time it consumes (realizing that multiple attacks are factored in with the animation time consumption calculation thanks to heavier weighting), you can determine how much additional DPS you gain by simply multiplying the specific consumption values (which factors in time as well as number of attacks made) with the coefficients (which represents the specific weighting of each power in relation to the standard Saber Strike) and then the bonus damage itself. Since it's all straight multiplication, it doesn't matter what order you multiply them in (seriously, elementary school math here) so arguing that you need to multiply bonus damage by the coefficients first is completely pointless since the end product will be exactly the same.

So, because of this, I'm going to go back to the animation time consumption math I used before that you didn't understand before and use it again with the empirically determined coefficients (re: what is actually in the game and cannot be argued with). Yes, I realize that it will not be explicitly accurate since I am assuming that PA will proc 100% of the time rather than 50% of the time, but it's a relatively minor assumption in the course of things. Without having combat logs, we're going to have to do math and make some assumptions, so we're assuming a best case for a sustainable attack paradigm (which means that a player can likely expect roughly 90% of the given gains in reality).

Saber Strike: 39.8% animation consumption * 1.0 coefficient = .398 consumption normalized coefficient

Double Strike: 15% * 1.56 = .234

Project: 15% * 3.12 = .468

TK Throw: 10% * 5.5 = .55

Slow Time: 11.1% * 1.27 = .141

Force Breach: 9.1% * .74 = .067

Once again, each of these consumption normalized coefficients represents the average damage coefficient generated by the power as it applies to its percentage of animation time consumed. Meaning that an attack that you use one out of every 10 GCDs is going to have one tenth of its normal coefficient when all are summed up. Since the sum of all of the animation consumptions is 100% (meaning full animation time use), this represents the entirety of the attack string within attempting to go into a discreet time frame.

Now, since there are 2 different Bonus Damage numbers (one for melee, one for Force powers), we have to separate the two consumption normalized coefficients into their relevant bonus damage type.

Melee: .632 = .398 (SS) + .234 (DS)

Force: 1.226 = .468 (Project) + .55 (TK) + .141 (ST) + .067 (FB)

Now that we have each consumption normalized coefficient divided into its relevant bonus damage type, we multiply by the relevant bonus damage quantity and then sum them together to determine the overall benefit to the entire attack string.

27.17 DPS = .632 * 14.1 + 1.226 * 14.9

So, the 74 Willpower difference generated what should average to about 27 DPS without factoring in crits of any kind outside of PA's guaranteed crit (while simultaneously assuming that Double Strike will automatically proc PA; considering 50% surge and a 20% crit rate would equate to 10% better damage for everything except for Project, I'm willing to say the two balance out). Scale the 74 Willpower up to the 200 Willpower we're using as a baseline of comparison, which we can easily do since power scales linearly and has no diminishing returns, we see that we get 2.7 times as much power for 73.3 additional DPS from the 200 additional Willpower.

73.3 is close enough to 69.2 damage that I originally mathed that I'm still willing to say I've been correct all along. Willpower just keeps looking better and better.

Arbegla · January 15, 2012

SS: 14 diff / 14.1 bonus damage = 1.0 coefficient
DS: 22 / 14.1 = 1.56 coefficient
Project: 27 / 14.9 = 1.81 coefficient
FB: 11 / 14.9 = .74 coefficient
ST: 19 / 14.9 = 1.27 coefficient
TK: 47 / 14.9 = 3.15 coefficient

Let me reiterate: this was taken directly from the game. It doesn't matter what TORhead might claim, empirically, this is what the coefficients are without factoring in non-permanent benefits (such as Upheaval and Harnessed Shadows). It's pretty obvious that they differ a *great deal* from the ones you drew from by TORhead which tells us that TORhead doesn't factor in everything. For Double Strike, it seems pretty obvious that TORhead doesn't factor in Applied Force (6% bonus damage with Double Strike) whereas my empirical findings *do* (.74 * 2 * 1.06 = 1.568 rounded down to 1.56). Because of this, we know we can't trust the TORhead numbers so you cannot claim they are the *exact* coefficients at all because it's obvious they are not exact.

Torhead.com accounts for Base coefficients, which is exactly what the numbers show, or rather close enough. What this shows is that the talents in question apply direct to the base coefficients (which is why Torhead says that Double strike does 1.48 and your saying that it does 1.56 due to rounding)

For TK Throw, we know that Harnessed Shadows provides 75% additional damage as an end multiplier (I've tested this by looking at damage numbers both with and without HS stacks on a target), so the coefficient simply needs to be multiplied by 1.75 in order to determine the "real" coefficient.

Project provides us with a twofold problem since we have Particle Acceleration (a simply 1.5 multiplier) and Upheaval (a 45% chance for 50% of base damage though it *is* modified by all Project damage modifiers including talents and bonus damage, adding 22.5% more damage). If we ignore chance to crit outside of PA procs, this means that Project would receive a 1.725 multiplier to its coefficient (1 + .5 + .225).

I agree on the way you figured out Upheaval, as that is simply enough a 45% chance to do 50% damage (and even Torhead.com shows that, as a 45% chance for a .925 coefficient bonus, though I am very interested in how you got 1.81 and torhead is showing 1.85, but that could be within the margin of error for rounding)

Just because you don't understand the methodology doesn't mean it isn't appropriate. I don't need to list a specific time frame for the entire attack string since I am operating under an assumption of continuous action. In other words, it doesn't matter how long you fight for, over any long enough period of time the time consumption values for each power are going to approach the given values. It's the same concept used with mitigation values: it doesn't matter how much damage (time) comes in (goes by) the same percent of damage (time) is mitigated (consumed) by the attacks (actions) that occur. If I use one Double Strike every 30 seconds, it uses up the exact same percentage of time over 3 hours as it would for any 30 second discreet interval (and even if you don't use discreet 30 second intervals, the longer time frame you look at the more the consumption would approach that of any of the specific 30 second intervals). It's really simply math honestly. If you couldn't understand that (or the math involved in the post in question, which I'm pretty sure you're not even understanding since you assume that "1 every 9 seconds" means that the use is immediate rather than at any time within that 9 second window), I can't really help you. If you *want* me to, I can explain that post to you in depth, since you seem to be having problems understanding it.

Well, as you explained that further down, I don't actually need you to explain it, and you even mentioned that it is reasonably flawed, due to assuming 100% uptime for all of the various procs you need. If you assume 50% uptime (and follow your own Rule) then the DPS increase is much smaller.

Not that it's directly relevant to the discussion, but this is fundamentally flawed logic. The chance of getting a proc after 2 Double Strikes is only 75%. There is no "best" to assume since you cannot guarantee that any specific mechanism will actually occur. If I really wanted to get complex I would have created a 50% chance upon any DS use to immediately double the activation time and increase the Force cost by the relevant amount since that would actually be the most applicable way to implement a probabilistic scenario. Personally, I didn't because that would have overcomplicated a post that most people already thought was complex enough.

On average, with a 50/50 chance, after 2 rolls you'll get your number, but you are correct, your chance after 2 Double strikes is only 75% to get a proc. After 3 Double strikes your chance goes up to 87.5% and after 4 its 93.75%, so using your own Rule a 3:1 split on Double Strike and Project would be the best things to assume, using my rotation, which follows your own rules, i assume 8 double strikes to 3 Projects, which is close enough. I'm also considering that once you get your 3 projects, you use Saber Strike to conserve force (i/e, if you use less then 8 Double Strikes, you then replace the extra with Saber Strike)

First off, that's a disclaimer that applies specifically to the sustainability time frames and was placed because I recognized that Force consumption happens in discreet quantities, not in a slow drain which is what I was assuming (and what any simple mathematical calculation would assume without going into the realm of simulation).

Secondly, since the disclaimer was specifically put in to account for the discreet v. averaged consumption issue and the greatest single consumption at any one time is 45 Force in a single instant, the problem you're assuming would happen only occurs when you have less than 45 Force. Since the easy/easy paradigm is capable of infinite Force sustainability, we could easily assume that you always have enough Force to spend on any one ability, rendering the disclaimer irrelevant.

The highest consumption is actually 39 force, as Project would be benefiting from Psychokinesis. And you can regenerate 39 force, using even your old regeneration of 11.4 in just over 3 seconds (3.42 to be exact) Using your new regeneration assumption of 11.76 and your looking at 3.32 seconds to regenerate the force needed for the highest costing attack, now you do mention the 39 value in your next paragraph, so I'm just going to assume it was an oversight.

But this only applies for the first 30 second of a fight (and still suffers from the problems that the disclaimer was put in there to be relevant to since you're assuming an even burn over 30 seconds, not the burst burn and gain that actually occurs in game, meaning, in all likelihood, you would actually have only about 21 seconds of time before did not have the Force to use Project since your even burn (2.96 Force/sec) would put you below the 39 Force required to use Project at 21 seconds (-2.96 * 21 = -62).). Unless you plan on only counting DPS for the first 30 seconds of a fight and then somehow extrapolating the increased burn rate that you can accomplish there over the next 3-4 minutes, you're overestimating DPS. You need to find what the sustained DPS actually is in order to do so, which is where my easy/easy was coming from.

While force is a limiting factor, using your own Rule, you don't want to use anything other then Force breach, Slow time, double strike, and saber strike until you have the procs to do so, I/e you need PA before Project, and 3 Harnessed Shadows before TK Thrust. Using that, you can safely assume you won't be 'bursting' down your force, especially if you are using 1 saber strike to every 2 double strikes (which is more or less what my rotation assumes) so while you have a pretty large burn rate, that is assuming all your procs line up perfectly.

Your main drains on force would then be Double Strike, as you'd only use Force Breach and Slow time to maintain the debuffs (one is used every 15 seconds, the other every 18, or to account for the GCD of their use, every 13.5 seconds, and 16.5 seconds) So all you'd have to worry about is not flat lining your force using double strike, and having enough force to use your procs when they come up.

Also, and I'm quite surprised no one has called me on this, I actually underestimated our Force Regen in that math, largely because I wrote it before I understood the attack mechanics in question as well as what defensive stats would look like at level 50 and the prevalence of multiattacks in the game. With a 25% chance to dodge and a 50% shield chance, you would have a 62.5% chance (.25 + (1 - .25) * .5) of procing DBLS with any given attack. Assuming 2 attacks per GCD (1.33 attacks every second), this means you would actually manage to gain roughly 1.46 additional Force/sec, making total Force regen more accurately 11.76 Force/sec.

11.4 is a good safe assumption, but 11.76 sounds even better. I'm sure the reason why no one has really called you out on things is because you simply know all, and everyone just assumes your correct all the time.

What you're saying has no bearing on the math I provided. Whatsoever. You're letting your lack of understanding about my methodology (normalizing the coefficients for their animation time consumption before factoring in the damage dealt) interfere with your analysis of the situation. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just say it. Right now, it's simply becoming more and more apparent you don't know what *I'm* doing so it's impossible for you to offer anything approaching to a legitimate critique. I can assure you that *I* understand what you're doing, which is why I can offer criticisms (and often how I can explicitly tell you you're wrong).

I wasn't talking about the exact post i quoted when i said 'your math' i was talking about the instance when you removed your boots, and noticed a 47 damage drop in TK Thrust. In order to account for that 47 damage decrease, you'd see that TK thrust has a base coefficient of .79 per tick, or 3.16 total. Your empirical showings showed that amount as well.

Did you fail elementary school math or something? That math is completely flawless. The only reason you could fail to realize this is if you just haven't learned the basics of algebraic manipulation and multiplication. In a series of multiplied values, as long as the multiplier is applied to the entire source, it doesn't matter where it is applied as long as it is applied to all of the multiplied values before or after they are summed. You're claiming, somehow, that (x + .75 x = 1.75 x) is not true. The sheer audacity of this statement renders me largely incapable of forming a coherent statement. If you don't understand basic mathematics please just leave the conversation and learn them before coming back. I multiply the TK Throw coefficient by 1.75 here because it doesn't matter where I multiply the value (whether before or after I multiply the coefficient by the bonus damage); the two values will be the same regardless: (x * y) * z = x * (y * z).

Except its not (X * Y) * Z its (X + Y) * Z. as your adding your base damage to your bonus damage, then multiplying it. in this case it would be ((Base + (coefficient)) * 75% (damage increase)) as your increasing the overall damage of TK Thrust by 75%, but not accounting for the base, and just the bonus. and Overall damage is (Base + Coefficient) There is a HUGE difference between (X + Y) * Z and X + (Y * Z). And while i understand that your basically changing the equation to be (X * Z) + (Y * Z) it simplifies down to (X + Y) * Z. Stretching out your equation as a means to extrapolate your math doesn't make for good math skills, as your base damage is also being boosted by the same critical and bonus damage amount, so the gain isn't as massive as your looking at.

Basically your saying that base damage doesn't matter in the long term, as your be multiplying that by the same critical chance or bonus damage, but your padding your own numbers in the process.

Take a look at these 2 equations:

W is base damage Z is bonus critical or bonus damage (via talents) x is coefficient and y is the bonus damage via willpower (or the power stat)

((W * Z) + (X * (Y * Z))) = (((W + (X * Y)) * Z)

Which is true. But its basically just simplifying. Which is why you can't factor in the bonus damage or critical damage to the coefficient, because it affects both sides the same. It doesn't matter what your bonus damage (i/e, from willpower or power rating) actually is as your base is being multiplied by the extra bonus from talents regardless.

No, you're still wrong. Your coefficients are still wrong (I gathered them empirically rather than relying on a data dump you don't even understand and that doesn't even factor in talents).

I'll give you the coefficients on Double Strike, Force Breach, and slow time, as those are affected by passive talents, and i'll even give you to coefficient bonus of Upheaval, but the rest of your numbers are incorrect due to basically just padding the numbers that would affect both sides of the equation regardless. Your base is being multiplied by your extra critical or bonus damage (via talents) as well as any coefficient damage you have, so its better to just add the bonus critical or bonus damage after you do the coefficient to see exactly how it is going to benefit you.

For example, lets assume 100 base damage, 10 bonus damage, .79 coefficient, and a 75% bonus damage added to the overall.

Your equation is saying that the coefficient is now 1.3825 (.79 * .75) without realizing that you base damage is also now 175. Either way, that 10 bonus damage is really only giving yourself 7.9% on overall damage. Lets compare:

(((100 * 1.75) + ((10 * (.79 * 1.75)) = 188.825

vs

((100 + (10 * .79)) * 1.75) = 188.825

Now, one it adding 7.9 damage to 100 damage (or 7.9% increase) and the other is adding 13.825 to 175 damage (or 7.9% increase)

And because I'm saying 'The increase is only 7.9.' and your saying 'No, your wrong its 13.825.' at the end of the day, we're both right in the grand scheme of things because its only increasing the overall damage by 7.9%.

So, i think you need to simplify your own math and look at what your actually doing, instead of trying to blow up your numbers to look bigger overall, and then claiming I'm wrong.

Now, I will once again attempt to explain how I'm doing my animation consumption math so that you understand it since you apparently couldn't wrap your head around it the first time so that, when I do the math, your brain doesn't implode and sputter forth with a weakly written rebuttal that demonstrates your lack of comprehension rather than a request for clarification.

I will use Force Breach as the first example since it's the simplest. Force Breach is applies an 18 second debuff, but you want to use it more often than that simply because you need a bit of overlap to give yourself some delay based breathing room. This means you use it once every 16.5 seconds consuming 1.5 seconds of animation time. This means that, over any specific window of time, you will generally use 9.1% (1.5 /16.5) of your time using Force Breach. This same concept applies to all of the other abilities used by a Shadow.

Now, as this applies to the DPS math, you must first realize that consumption percentage represents any given time frame you can imagine, as long as the time frame in question is no shorter than the longest use paradigm assumption (in the case of mine, the 30 second TK Throw cycle means that you need to look at 30 seconds or longer for the consumption values to make sense).

I understand that your percentages are over the entire fights duration, and because of the fact your using a percent, you can just say 'Yea, 9.1% of the time you'll be using Force Breach' and then basically multiply force breach's damage by 9.1%. I get that. But your overall rotation, is 30 seconds, and following your OWN rule, you don't want to use Project without PA, and TK Thrust without HSx3.

So while i realize what your doing, you can't be right in both cases. Its either follow your Rule, or follow your assumptions. I'm following your rule, by creating an assumption based on it (8 double strikes to 3 projects to 1 TK Thrust, keeping Force Breach and Slow time active, and using Saber Strike in between)

Your 'percentage based' assumptions of when your going to use your powers goes completely against your own rule by assuming you'll always have the proper procs up when you need them, and even if you don't, you'll still use the powers at the same percentages, i/e 15% of the time your using Double Strike, and 15% of the time your using Project, and 10% of the time your using Tk Thrust. But your own rule says that those numbers should basically be X:3:1, X being the number of double strikes in order to get 3 PA procs, and you only want to use TK Thrust when you have 3 harnesses shadows procs.

Now, understanding these two things, you realize that, by dividing and assigning each power by the amount of animation time it consumes (realizing that multiple attacks are factored in with the animation time consumption calculation thanks to heavier weighting), you can determine how much additional DPS you gain by simply multiplying the specific consumption values (which factors in time as well as number of attacks made) with the coefficients (which represents the specific weighting of each power in relation to the standard Saber Strike) and then the bonus damage itself. Since it's all straight multiplication, it doesn't matter what order you multiply them in (seriously, elementary school math here) so arguing that you need to multiply bonus damage by the coefficients first is completely pointless since the end product will be exactly the same.

Again, I realize what your doing, your just not simplifying the equation down to do it. Your padding the value of the coefficient by your bonus critical or bonus damage (via PA and HS) and then saying 'yeah, its a huge increase' when PA and HS also affect the base by the same amount that your multiplying, making the numbers overall much smaller then what your saying they are, as its a percentage increase either way.

Without showing your base damage, your not showing an accurate measurement of the damage in question, and just saying that the padded coefficients are the correct method of which to do things.

Now, since there are 2 different Bonus Damage numbers (one for melee, one for Force powers), we have to separate the two consumption normalized coefficients into their relevant bonus damage type.

Melee: .632 = .398 (SS) + .234 (DS)
Force: 1.226 = .468 (Project) + .55 (TK) + .141 (ST) + .067 (FB)

Now that we have each consumption normalized coefficient divided into its relevant bonus damage type, we multiply by the relevant bonus damage quantity and then sum them together to determine the overall benefit to the entire attack string.

27.17 DPS = .632 * 14.1 + 1.226 * 14.9

I think you forgot how to round, because (14.1 * .632) + (14.9*1.226) = 27.1786 or if your going to round to the nearest hundredths, then its 27.18. That could explain how some numbers are largely different then others.

So, the 74 Willpower difference generated what should average to about 27 DPS without factoring in crits of any kind outside of PA's guaranteed crit (while simultaneously assuming that Double Strike will automatically proc PA; considering 50% surge and a 20% crit rate would equate to 10% better damage for everything except for Project, I'm willing to say the two balance out). Scale the 74 Willpower up to the 200 Willpower we're using as a baseline of comparison, which we can easily do since power scales linearly and has no diminishing returns, we see that we get 2.7 times as much power for 73.3 additional DPS from the 200 additional Willpower.

73.3 is close enough to 69.2 damage that I originally mathed that I'm still willing to say I've been correct all along. Willpower just keeps looking better and better.

Using the fact that your not showing base damage (and how much its being affected by the extra critical chance, or extra bonus damage) your numbers are very misleading overall.

Using the correct coefficients (accounting for talents, and rounding the right way) your looking at these numbers:

200 willpower = 40 bonus damage

Saber Strike = 1.0 coefficient

Double Strike = (.74 * 2) * 1.06 (due to applied force) = 1.5688 or 1.57

Project: = (1.85 (torhead.com, as your finding of 1.81 doesn't account for rounding, and you seem to be failing on that anyways) * 1.15 (bombardment)) + ((1.85/2) * .45) or 2.54 total.

FB: 11 / 14.9 = .74 * 1.15 (Force Break) = .85 I was using the wrong coefficient on Force Break, and wasn't looking at all the difference variables for it. Its base coefficient is .74 for Combat Technique. Force break boosts that by 15%.

ST: 19 / 14.9 = .94 base coefficient (from Torhead.com) * 1.30% (force break) gives you 1.22 total. I'm not sure how you got 1.27, but that could just be a rounding error. Swtor seems to flip flop on 5s, one hit doing 120 damage, the other doing 121, if the rounding made the power do 120.5. Without a combat log it'll be hard to see for sure, but it could just be an error with rounding.

TK: .79 * 4 = 3.16. You got 3.15, which could again just be due to rounding errors. (for example, 74 willpower = 14.8 bonus damage, with when you divide 47 by 14.8 you get 3.1756, but you got 14.9 and dividing 47 by 14.9 gives you 3.1544. Adding the 2 difference numbers together, and dividing in half gives you 3.165. again, without combat logs, it'll be hard to see when exactly TOR cuts off the decimals, and how it rounds)

This gives the following bonuses on 40 extra damage:

Saber Strike = 40 damage

Double Strike = 62.8

Project = 101.6

Force Breach = 34

Slow time = 48.8

Tk Thrust = 126.4

So, getting those numbers, and using your own Rule (not your percentile assumptions, as those don't even follow your OWN Rule) then your looking at something similar to my rotation. 2 force breaches, 2 slow times, 3 projects, 1 TK Thrust, 8 double strikes, and 4 saber strikes within 30 seconds (or 20 GCDs) Now, we're both agreed that this isn't very force efficient unless you get really lucky with PA procs, and are able to swap out about 3 or more Double strikes with Saber strikes, but lets just use the above, as that best follows your own Rule.

And your own Rule seems to be a much better metric from which to string together rotations then your percentile based assumptions of how each fight should play out.

This gives us (((2*34) + (48.8*2) + (126) + (101.6*3) + (62.8*8) + (40*4))/30) or about 41.96DPS.

Now, this is without adding the critical bonus of Project (as we don't have the base damage to compare it to) or the added 75% damage of Tk Thrust (as we again don't have the base damage to compare it to) I feel this is the best gain you will get from 200 willpower.

If you add in the extra critical bonus of Project, or the 75% damage of Tk Thrust, you will have to show the base damage, from which to show an accurate percentile increase (overall) so if you want to use your numbers by all means, keep doing so, just show all of your work in order to have something to properly compare it to.

Kitru · January 15, 2012

Except its not (X * Y) * Z its (X + Y) * Z. as your adding your base damage to your bonus damage, then multiplying it. in this case it would be ((Base + (coefficient)) * 75% (damage increase))

Once again. Elementary school math and a proper understanding of how the game actually operates will show just how wrong you are.

First off, and I'm pretty sure you should already know this, the multipliers that I'm factoring in are applied to the final total. This means that, after your bonus damage is factored into TK Throw, when you have 3 stacked of Harnessed Shadows, you are going to deal 1.75 times as much damage. The same applies to Project. This is the proper understanding portion of the game mechanics.

Now, it comes down to elementary school math. When you multiply a sum of two parts by a given amount, it doesn't matter if you multiply each part separately and then add them (ex. 10 * 5 + 2 * 5 = 60) or you add them together and *then* multiply them (ex. (10 + 2) * 5 = 60).

So, knowing these two things, you can now see that you are wrong. If you can't, it's because you don't understand one or both of these two fundamental concepts. Using the previous examples, 10 is the base damage, 2 is the bonus damage and 5 is the coefficient. An end 1.5 multiplier would be the additional damage provided by PA or TK Throw (since it is an end multiplier to all damage dealt rather than a multiplier only to base damage or any other value). So the two different equations would look like (10 * 5 * 1.5 + 2 * 5 * 1.5 = 90) and ((10 + 2) * 5 * 1.5 = 90). Either way, the sum is the same.

Now, in order to determine what the actual values are for increasing that bonus damage (2), you don't actually need to factor in base damage. Use the first formula (10 * 5 * 1.5 + 2 * 5 * 1.5 = 90), and cut out the first half such that you only have the math that deals with the bonus damage. This formula (2 * 5 * 1.5 = 15) represents the sum contribution of bonus damage. The portion we cut out represented on the *base* damage. Since the base damage remains the same no matter how much bonus damage we add (re: that portion of the equation is completely unaffected), we can safely dismiss it when attempting to look at the net contributions of manipulating bonus damage. If we increase the bonus damage from 2 to 3, the formula becomes (3 * 5 * 1.5 = 22.5); Subtract the two values (22.5 - 15 = 7.5) and we can see that net benefit to increasing the bonus damage would be 7.5 additional damage. If you honestly need verification, go back to the full equation and increase the 2 to a 3 (10 * 5 * 1.5 + 3 * 5 * 1.5 = 97.5) and you'll see that the increase is *still* 7.5. Elementary school math.

I'm sure the reason why no one has really called you out on things is because you simply know all, and everyone just assumes your correct all the time.

I doubt anyone thinks I'm just correct all the time. If they did, I wouldn't have anyone to argue with an no one would ever check my math (this happens plenty; thankfully, I almost always tend to be right though there are still hiccups, like my forgetting to factor in damage debuffs in the holistic survivability calcs).

I think the more likely reason is simply that the analysis didn't differ enough from reality to require reworking it. When doing this kind of math, it will never exactly match reality. The best that we can manage is a close enough approximation that it isn't appreciably different from experience. The analysis in question was close enough that no one really cared that it might not be perfectly accurate (of course, the original point of the now regularly cited analysis was to determine what the proper use paradigms for a long term sustainable attack setup were rather than trying to determine what percentage our time the attacks used up; it has only branched out beyond that since it has been largely accepted as the nominal use paradigms of the given abilities).

And because I'm saying 'The increase is only 7.9.' and your saying 'No, your wrong its 13.825.' at the end of the day, we're both right in the grand scheme of things because its only increasing the overall damage by 7.9%.

The *only* time you would need to include base damage (since it is completely unaffected by manipulation of bonus damage) is if you are looking for a percentage gain over current DPS. Since we are looking at the raw number improvements rather than a percentage increase, there is no need to factor in the base damage and, in fact, we can safely ignore base damage altogether which means you are entirely wrong here. Claiming that, somehow, we're both saying the same thing when we're not is completely untrue. We are saying completely different things because you're doing the math wrong.

TL:DR I did the math entirely correctly. You're failing your comprehension of some fundamental mathematical principles. My numbers still stand and I remain as correct as I have been for this entire discussion.

So while i realize what your doing, you can't be right in both cases.

I can be correct in both cases if neither differs from reality in an appreciable fashion. I'm not going to redo the math on an attack string and generate entirely new numbers simply because the first set of math is did is slightly flawed (and, yes, it's only *slightly* flawed; I've yet to see *anyone* make any claim that I have somehow fundamentally miscalculated the consumption math simply because I operated under as assumption that PA would proc 100% of the time; it's close enough to reality to work perfectly fine).

Honestly, if you didn't need to have the method explained to you, there would have been *much less* math and discussion involved since coefficients were the only missing factor to turn those numbers into useful damage contribution values.

Your 'percentage based' assumptions of when your going to use your powers goes completely against your own rule by assuming you'll always have the proper procs up when you need them

No, it doesn't. Let me explain this again. The assumption is the only thing that is off. Over time, the percentage uses are going to fall along a specific value based upon how much animation time they consume. The only flaw in this assumption is an underestimation of the amount of animation time consumption that Double Strike would use (numerous other analyses have shown that the 3 Projects and 1 TK Throw every 30 secs is pretty much spot on) since I'm still going to be using Force Breach and Slow Time every 16.5 seconds.

I think you forgot how to round, because (14.1 * .632) + (14.9*1.226) = 27.1786 or if your going to round to the nearest hundredths, then its 27.18. That could explain how some numbers are largely different then others.

I'm rounding down, which is what the game tends to do. At worst, it would slightly underestimate the contribution of Willpower by less damage than is analytically significant.

Now, this is without adding the critical bonus of Project (as we don't have the base damage to compare it to) or the added 75% damage of Tk Thrust (as we again don't have the base damage to compare it to) I feel this is the best gain you will get from 200 willpower.

I just feel this bears repeating again. You don't need to know the base damage of a power to know that the coefficient, when multiplied by the known 50% or 75% improved damage, is going to be the exact same as the exact same as the additional damage provided by the coefficient when multiplied in addition to the base damage. The transitive property is your friend. I suggest you go back to reading some elementary school algebra texts to refresh yourself if you don't understand this concept.

The ~70 DPS number from 200 Willpower number still stands. Arbegla, refresh yourself on your fundamentals of algebra and algebraic manipulation. It's getting annoying having to school you *literally* so you realize I'm schooling you *metaphorically*.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Paralassa
insults

Arbegla · January 16, 2012

A lot of stuff about how I don't know math

At the end of the day Kitru, having a percentages based increase in DPS is much better then having a flat out number. A flat value tells you nothing in the grand scheme of things, but if you factor in the base damage you can figure out a percentage increase then you'll know exactly how much your going to benefit your overall DPS, and by how much.

That is the main point I'm trying to get across here. You’re showing the overall DPS increase accounting for all the various procs, and bonuses and saying 'Its ~70 DPS per 200 willpower." And I'm saying 'Its ~40 DPS per 200 willpower.'

At the end of the day, when you compare both numbers to their base values (as in, what actually matters) you'll get a percentage increase. So without knowing the base, we can't figure out who is right (or if even we're both right).

While we can fight over which value is best to use (the ~70, or the ~40) it really just boils down to the percentage increase. This is the argument we had over mitigation. We're talking about different values, and comparing apples to oranges.

Drac and I had the same issue, I look at the numbers different then him, and it took quite a few posts before we came to an agreement on things. So, let’s work on finding the percentage increase, and go from there shall we?

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to get to level 50 yet on my consular (working on my trooper at the moment, and my system crashed out for a week) so I do not have the base values available. If you are willing, could you please post the base values of each power so that we can actually work on finding the percentage increase that adding 200 willpower will give you. This can easily be done by removing all of your gear as a level 50, making sure you have the highest level rank of skills, and then displaying the values your tooltips show.

Granted, for Double Strike this may be difficult, as that uses weapon damage, and without a weapon you wouldn't know the base. But as we do know the coefficient (which we've both agreed is about 1.56) so you could pretty easily work backwards using the bonus damage (or find a weapon with no bonuses on it, say a empty orange item) and subtract the weapon damage from what Double Strike says (as it also scales with weapon damage)

The *only* time you would need to include base damage (since it is completely unaffected by manipulation of bonus damage) is if you are looking for a percentage gain over current DPS. Since we are looking at the raw number improvements rather than a percentage increase, there is no need to factor in the base damage and, in fact, we can safely ignore base damage altogether which means you are entirely wrong here. Claiming that, somehow, we're both saying the same thing when we're not is completely untrue. We are saying completely different things because you're doing the math wrong.

As I just said, a percentage gain would actually be the best metric for which to measure how much willpower is actually going to benefit you over the long term.

You, Drac, and I have rehashed the endurance gain down into a percentage increase, which varies with your current endurance, and scales depending on how much damage you’re taking, why not put the willpower gain into a similar percentage based measurement?

TL: DR I did the math entirely correctly. You're failing your comprehension of some fundamental mathematical principles. My numbers still stand and I remain as correct as I have been for this entire discussion.

Your numbers stand, as long as you don't want to look at the percentage increase, which is where the true value of willpower would be shown. This basically means, your numbers don’t mean anything until you can compare them, via a percentage increase, to what you would’ve had before.

The only disagreement I have with your math is the rotation value you've set to them, as I feel that even over a very long duration, you wouldn't be using Double Strike and Project the same amount, nor would you be using TK Thrust only 1/3 less as often as Double Strike and Project. That assumption, even in the grand scheme of all of your fights, just doesn’t seem very stable. Having at least a 3:1 ratio of Project and Tk Thrust is best, with Double strike being used only to proc PA (so the ratio would basically look like X:3:1 with X being the number of double strikes needed to proc PA)

I can be correct in both cases if neither differs from reality in an appreciable fashion. I'm not going to redo the math on an attack string and generate entirely new numbers simply because the first set of math is did is slightly flawed (and, yes, it's only *slightly* flawed; I've yet to see *anyone* make any claim that I have somehow fundamentally miscalculated the consumption math simply because I operated under as assumption that PA would proc 100% of the time; it's close enough to reality to work perfectly fine).

Honestly, if you didn't need to have the method explained to you, there would have been *much less* math and discussion involved since coefficients were the only missing factor to turn those numbers into useful damage contribution values.

The problem is assuming with a 100% chance on PA will basically turn any numbers you use into a 'Best Case Scenario' and while that is a good benchmark, in the game world, it just doesn't happen like that. You yourself have said that you've gone upwards of 10 double strikes without a single PA proc. While that is rare, I feel having a built in method to deal with 'dry spells' of PA procs would be a much better metric then saying 'Well, my numbers work, as long as everything lines up just right.'

No, it doesn't. Let me explain this again. The assumption is the only thing that is off. Over time, the percentage uses are going to fall along a specific value based upon how much animation time they consume. The only flaw in this assumption is an underestimation of the amount of animation time consumption that Double Strike would use (numerous other analyses have shown that the 3 Projects and 1 TK Throw every 30 secs is pretty much spot on) since I'm still going to be using Force Breach and Slow Time every 16.5 seconds.

As I have been saying repeatedly, if you don't understand it, ask for an explanation instead of making yourself look like an idiot for attempting to debunk a perfectly rational concept without even correctly interpreting the 1 well-known flaw in it.

As long as we're agreeing that the main flaw of your assumptions is in how many Double strikes your accounting for. If you want to assume a best case scenario, that’s perfectly fine, as long as you know, and point out to others, that it won't be reflective of in game events. Dry spells happen, and even without them, the overall average should still be 50% (as that’s the percentage of the proc) and not 100% (as that’s assume the proc hits every single time)

And while double strike and project use the same animation time, you'll be using double strike more often, for the simple fact that you need it to proc PA. I'm agreeing with mostly everything else, for example, Force Breach should be used every 15.5 seconds, and Slow time every 13.5, as Force Breach only lasts 18 seconds, where slow time lasts 15, but the rest of your assumptions agree with what I've been thinking as well.

The issue itself I feel is with Double Strike, and Saber Strike. Double should only be used to proc PA, and once you get 1 PA proc in a 10 second period (i/e, per Project) you swap to using Saber Strike to conserve force until you roll into the next 10 second period, at which point you'll use Double strike until you get a PA proc. Repeat again, and then right after your third PA proc (i/e 30 seconds), you use TK Thrust, repeating the cycle again, making sure to keep Slow time and Force breaches debuff active.

I'm rounding down, which is what the game tends to do. At worst, it would slightly underestimate the contribution of Willpower by less damage than is analytically significant.

I've actually noticed the game flip flops on rounding. Sometimes it'll round up, sometimes round down, even with the same power (i/e, my saber strike will sometimes say it hits for 224 - 274 and sometimes say 225 to 275) Again, I think the rounding issue will be cleared up once we have stable combat logs and can see exactly what is happening.

I just feel this bears repeating again. You don't need to know the base damage of a power to know that the coefficient, when multiplied by the known 50% or 75% improved damage, is going to be the exact same as the exact same as the additional damage provided by the coefficient when multiplied in addition to the base damage. The transitive property is your friend. I suggest you go back to reading some elementary school algebra texts to refresh yourself if you don't understand this concept.

And I still feel that once we have a percentage increase (which would require the base damage) we'd be able to firmly see which number to use. I will agree that you number shows everything that could affect both the base, and coefficients already tacked on, but it is really next to meaningless without a means to compare it against.

My number doesn't show all the non-talent boosting bonuses includes (like PA and HS) but it too is useless without knowing the percentage increase, which again would require the base. We're still talking about the same general number. Mine is just base value (accounting for passive talents) and yours is accounting for passive talents, and the added bonuses of procs.

The ~70 DPS number from 200 Willpower number still stands. Arbegla, refresh yourself on your fundamentals of algebra and algebraic manipulation. It's getting annoying having to school you *literally* so you realize I'm schooling you *metaphorically*.

Quoting myself here, you can clearly see that I know exactly what you’re talking about, and I don't need your condescending 'schooling' comments, I merely want to compare apples to apples.

Take a look at these 2 equations:
W is base damage Z is bonus critical or bonus damage (via talents) x is coefficient and y is the bonus damage via willpower (or the power stat)

((W * Z) + (X * (Y * Z))) = (((W + (X * Y)) * Z)

For example, let’s assume 100 base damage, 10 bonus damage, .79 coefficient, and a 75% bonus damage added to the overall.

Your equation is saying that the coefficient is now 1.3825 (.79 * .75) without realizing that you base damage is also now 175. Either way, that 10 bonus damage is really only giving yourself 7.9% on overall damage. Let’s compare:

(((100 * 1.75) + ((10 * (.79 * 1.75)) = 188.825
Vs.
((100 + (10 * .79)) * 1.75) = 188.825

Now, one it adding 7.9 damage to 100 damage (or 7.9% increase) and the other is adding 13.825 to 175 damage (or 7.9% increase)

And because I'm saying 'The increase is only 7.9.' and your saying 'No, your wrong its 13.825.' at the end of the day, we're both right in the grand scheme of things because it’s only increasing the overall damage by 7.9%

That is basically EXACTLY what you tried to 'school' me on at the beginning of your post. It’s the exactly same equation. Your just leaving out the base damage, and saying 'You didn't want a percentage increase, you want a flat value.' and while that is true, comparing 2 flat values against each other tells you nothing without knowing how they affect the overall damage, which you would need the base for, and that is exactly what I am saying.

So what does 70DPS mean exactly? What does 40DPS means exactly? What kind of an increase are we actually talking about? These are the same questions you asked me when I spouted off my 11.4% mitigation increase between 16k and 18k hit points.

How does 70DPS compare to 11.4% increase on life span? Or an .45% self healing increase (when compared to the healing your already getting) or even 9.67hp/seconds? I guess you could compare ~70DPS to 9.67hp/second go 'well, that 70DPS is looking pretty nice.' but without a context to put it into, it’s just a number your throwing out there.

You've rehashed, insulted, and demeaned me for my endurance calculations, and I'm merely returning the favor on your willpower calculations. Without knowing the base damage of your powers, you can not put the estimated DPS increase into a comparable context.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Arbegla

XGrievusX · January 16, 2012

I wish we had some capping information on defensive secondary attributes. Because as of this moment 99% of gear with defensive attributes have more endurance than willpower which if every unmoddable slot item has to have a defensive stat on it to be effective in mitigation in avoidance then it leaves moddable gear and possibly relics. Which is 7 items and I don't see the willpower difference being that much. Has anyone determined caps or diminishing returns on shield, absorb, and defence because if every piece of gear has to have it we will very little movement to choose between endurance and willpower because BW will have made the choice for us in nonmoddable gear.

Arbegla · January 16, 2012

I wish we had some capping information on defensive secondary attributes. Because as of this moment 99% of gear with defensive attributes have more endurance than willpower which if every unmoddable slot item has to have a defensive stat on it to be effective in mitigation in avoidance then it leaves moddable gear and possibly relics. Which is 7 items and I don't see the willpower difference being that much. Has anyone determined caps or diminishing returns on shield, absorb, and defence because if every piece of gear has to have it we will very little movement to choose between endurance and willpower because BW will have made the choice for us in nonmoddable gear.

Diminishing returns (or DR) on defense is about 25%. DR on Shield is about 50% (i think, could be 35%, and the 50% number we're using is with kinetic ward) DR on absorb i think is also 50% (we've been using 30%, as absorb isn't really something you want to stack until you've capped out defense and shield)

Edited January 16, 2012 by Arbegla

Kitru · January 16, 2012

You've rehashed, insulted, and demeaned me for my endurance calculations, and I'm merely returning the favor on your willpower calculations. Without knowing the base damage of your powers, you can not put the estimated DPS increase into a comparable context.

The only purpose you've served in attempting to "returning the favor" on my willpower calculations is demonstrate exactly how little you actually know about the game.

Even if you wanted to determine a percent increase, you wouldn't be able to get it in the manner in which you think you would (by not including the end multipliers for the TK Throw and Project) accurately unless you completely ignored Harnessed Shadows and PA for the entirety of you calculation of base DPS and then did a bunch of complex math to determine what the relevant increase provided by the talents overall is and *only then* factoring it in. It's a pointlessly circuitous manner to do it when it's simpler to simply account for it immediately in both calculations (re: applying it to coefficients).

As to an inability to compare a flat quantity of DPS to a percent of health gained (since I think we've pretty much agreed that's the only real contribution of additional health once you bypass the required Endurance threshold that is pretty easy attained with default gear), it's not really a major concern. 70 DPS is *not* an insignificant number: over the course of a short 30 sec fight (fighting solo), you're getting an extra 2100 damage. Since that's about as much as a PA Project with an Upheaval proc deals (at least for me), you can consider that 200 WP as 1 free Project every TK Throw or so, which, when you consider how much of our damage comes from Project, that's a pretty big increase, especially when weighed against the almost entirely marginal gains provided by the additional End.

Arbegla · January 16, 2012

The only purpose you've served in attempting to "returning the favor" on my willpower calculations is demonstrate exactly how little you actually know about the game.

Even if you wanted to determine a percent increase, you wouldn't be able to get it in the manner in which you think you would (by not including the end multipliers for the TK Throw and Project) accurately unless you completely ignored Harnessed Shadows and PA for the entirety of you calculation of base DPS and then did a bunch of complex math to determine what the relevant increase provided by the talents overall is and *only then* factoring it in. It's a pointlessly circuitous manner to do it when it's simpler to simply account for it immediately in both calculations (re: applying it to coefficients).

It would actually be pretty easy to do, on a per power basis. Its not that difficult math, or even that complex at all. You merely figure out how much damage each power does at base value, then you just simply add in the extra damage from the coefficient values and multiply by the extra critical or damage bonus via talents. As the base damage per power doesn't change either way, the equation works out.

Its literally this simple:

(((W + (X * Y)) * Z)

Where W is base damage without any bonuses at all (i/e, naked) X is your bonus damage from stats (i/e willpower) Y is your base coefficient (after talents) and Z is your bonus critical chance or bonus damage (from PA or HS)

This is basic math Kitru, the same basic math you 'schooled' me on. Its not complex, and if you apply it to the coefficients, you HAVE to apply it to the base. Isn't that what you already told me? What you do to one side of the equation you HAVE to do to the other? like this equation shows? ((W * Z) + (X * (Y * Z)))

Otherwise, your equation wouldn't balance out. You CAN NOT apply the multiplier to the coefficient WITHOUT also applying them to the base damage, in order to figure out exactly what kind of a gain the ~70 DPS may give you, or if the DPS gain is really ~70 to begin with.

Really Kitru, your not even reading the stuff your 'teaching' me so maybe you need to look that back over.

As to an inability to compare a flat quantity of DPS to a percent of health gained (since I think we've pretty much agreed that's the only real contribution of additional health once you bypass the required Endurance threshold that is pretty easy attained with default gear), it's not really a major concern.

You're basically saying that we've agreed that once you hit a certain threshold that the only benefit to more endurance is adding more hit points, and I've never agreed on that. You should know that already. What I have agreed on though, is that while there are other factors to consider (i/e, self healing gain especially when healers are unavailable) that those factors are small, but still present.

I've also agreed that your gaining a small amount of self healing vs healing you should've gotten from healers, and there are times where that the extra healing can come in handy, as others have stateds during hard mode operations, when your healers could be disabled.

But regardless, the overall agreement on endurance is while it does add some mitigation value in addition to giving you more of a safety net for your healers, its very a small amount.

My concern now, is comparing the 'small amount' of gain from endurance, with any gain you may get from willpower, which is currently impossible without knowing the base values of your attacks, so you can properly compare the damage you had before.

70 DPS is *not* an insignificant number: over the course of a short 30 sec fight (fighting solo), you're getting an extra 2100 damage. Since that's about as much as a PA Project with an Upheaval proc deals (at least for me), you can consider that 200 WP as 1 free Project every TK Throw or so, which, when you consider how much of our damage comes from Project, that's a pretty big increase, especially when weighed against the almost entirely marginal gains provided by the additional End.

The thing is, while 70DPS sounds great and wonderful, your not comparing it correctly to your overall damage. If your able to do 2100 damage with a project, and you have 3 projects in 30 seconds, then assuming no other attacks, you've increased your DPS by 33%. But, as you'll need anywhere between 3 and 9 double strikes (on average) to trigger those same Project, chances are your DPS is much higher then 210.

Also, your still comparing apples to oranges. You ripped apart my endurance comparisons as not being viable in group and raid settings (i/e flash points and operatins) yet you want to say that the boost from willpower is a massive boon for solo DPS. Thats great! The boost from endurnace is a MASSIVE boon for solo mitigation as well, because you don't have a healer to keep you alive, and the increase in self healing, plus the increase in hit points allows you to not just take more hits, but then heal them back up easier and faster.

Please stop comparing apples to oranges, and actually compare things in a way that you required me to. If you can't, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on what is actually viable.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Arbegla

WEMF · January 16, 2012

I'm primarily a healer and I came over here to cos I'm rolling a Jedi Shadow Tank. But what I can say is that in WoW and in SWTOR, I definitely appreciate higher HP (assuming that mitigation is maxed out). With my tanking buddies, they never had any problems holding threat, or else a few fades/cloud minds once a while doesn't really hurt.

But having higher HP helps when the tank suddenly goes out of LOS or my mana/force is running low and I need to use mana efficient heals rather than fast, expensive heals. I think it's no surprise that tanking gear in SWTOR has more endurance than willpower.

When they hit for less DPS to generate threat, I think this means that they need to play smarter with their taunts to make sure that they can come to the healer's rescue

Dracyula · January 16, 2012

Diminishing returns (or DR) on defense is about 25%. DR on Shield is about 50% (i think, could be 35%, and the 50% number we're using is with kinetic ward) DR on absorb i think is also 50% (we've been using 30%, as absorb isn't really something you want to stack until you've capped out defense and shield)

This post is incorrect.

The CAP for DEF is 30%, for Shield and Absorb it is 50%.

There is a graph on this page of this thread that shows diminishing returns.

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=5

Shield and Absorb are the most effective when they are at the same percentage, so

as a shadow tank you will want to focus on DEF and Absorb the most because kinetic ward will basically give you a base 35% shield chance.

You want to increase DEF because it has the greatest effect (mitigating all damage instead of a portion), but be wary since it suffers the most from DR.

You want to add very little shield until your absorb has caught up to your shield chance. Also, according to the attached link, Absorb suffers from DR significantly less than DEF or Shield.

Personally, after looking over the graph, I would not worry about DR until DEF reaches 20%, Shield reaches 30%, and Absorb reaches 40%.

In other words, stack DEF to 20%, then absorb until it equals your shield rating (including Kinetic ward), Then stack all 3 equally. I would then stop with DEF once it hits 25%, stop with Absorb when it hits 40%, and stop with shield when it hits 30% (Base, no KW).

EDIT: This information was for XGrievusX, but I mistakenly thought it was for WEMF. If you are level 50 disregard the advice and just use the numbers.

D

Edited January 16, 2012 by Dracyula

Arbegla · January 16, 2012

This post is incorrect.

The CAP for DEF is 30%, for Shield and Absorb it is 50%.

There is a graph on this page of this thread that shows diminishing returns.

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=5

Shield and Absorb are the most effective when they are at the same percentage, so
as a shadow tank you will want to focus on DEF and Absorb the most because kinetic ward will basically give you a base 35% shield chance.

You want to increase DEF because it has the greatest effect (mitigating all damage instead of a portion), but be wary since it suffers the most from DR.

You want to add very little shield until your absorb has caught up to your shield chance. Also, according to the attached link, Absorb suffers from DR significantly less than DEF or Shield.

Personally, after looking over the graph, I would not worry about DR until DEF reaches 20%, Shield reaches 30%, and Absorb reaches 40%.

In other words, stack DEF to 20%, then absorb until it equals your shield rating (including Kinetic ward), Then stack all 3 equally. I would then stop with DEF once it hits 25%, stop with Absorb when it hits 40%, and stop with shield when it hits 30% (Base, no KW).

EDIT: This information was for XGrievusX, but I mistakenly thought it was for WEMF. If you are level 50 disregard the advice and just use the numbers.

D

To be fair, I was just using the numbers we've used in mitigation values (25% defense, 50% shield, 30% absorb) and assumed those were good estimates. But i wasn't too far off.

30% defense, 50% shield, and 50% absorb seem like decent DR numbers, but i think it'll take an extremely large amount of defense, shield, and absorb to reach those numbers, using your values of 25% defense, 30% shield, and 40% absorb seems to be a pretty good base line.

Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

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