Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

[Zintair]

The debate is not about current game mechanics, it is about tanking philosophy.

 

The reason that the large numbers were brought up was to demonstrate that mindlessly adding END is not always the answer if you want to maximize your effectiveness.

 

 

 

Let's use the 1400/1200 ratio as an example, one side was saying that if you have 2000 extra WIL/END to play with, you should always add it to END, therefore making it 3400/1200.

 

The other side was saying that since you will be fine "if you PUG or casual play or want to stay alive" with 1400 END, so you should add to the WIL making it a 1400/3200 ratio.

 

The ONLY point I wanted to make was "You should not MINDLESSLY add END without looking at the big picture", the large numbers were only used to clarify my point.

 

I agree that it is a gray area, as that is the point I am trying to make.

 

D

 

I appreciate the break down. I must say neither option sound good. A lot changes though because 2000 END is 20000 HP. 32000 HP as a tank is completely boss lol. Although in the end the Willpower example does sound better. I think we all agree that a nice balance of them both would better suit the situation

[Arbegla]

Remember that the .008% increase in DPS is in relation to the entire groups DPS. For this argument you need to figure out how much DPS is added versus the TANKS current DPS.

 

EDIT: With the large amount of text in these posts, I did not explain why. If you would like me to elaborate, I will.

 

D

 

Oh i think i understand why, because we're adding the 26.7DPS(personal gain) to the 3333.33DPS (group) vs a mob with 1 million hit points, and saying 'well, its only a .008% increase'. Its basically assuming a lot, and using those assumptions to figure out a DPS increase based on a lot of unknowns.

 

The mitigation formula (.0045%) falls into a similar trap, as we're assuming 4300 incoming DPS, but i feel the 4300DPS is a much better estimate to go by (due in part to the information found here which shows the second most common damage being 6464, and when that is divided by the GCD of 1.5 seconds, you get 4309.33DPS, which is where i got my 4300DPS estimate) then the 1 million hit point, 5 minute enrage time of the boss assumption we're been using.

 

While i could use the same math i used to find out the 26.7 DPS gain to figure out a good estimate of a tanks personal DPS, it would take far more time, and a lot of it would be guess work. We can figure out the coefficients pretty easily, but a lot of those powers have a base damage + coefficients, and figuring that out would take a lot of work, as some of those base damage numbers aren't quite known, and scale with the 'rank' of each power.

 

I did mean willpower in that above quote, instead of endurance, I'm currently typing at work, so things aren't as clear as if i were to type stuff up at home. (less time to double check my posts)

 

When i compared the flat gain in DPS (26.7) to the overall life span increase of endurance (11.4% when comparing 16k to 18k) i think i found a decent mark from which to be able to compare. But that could be rolling back into comparing apples to oranges again, which may not be the best option.

 

I tried to break down 3333.33 into actual personal DPS but i had a pretty hard time doing it. Here is what i tried to do: Taking into account Kitru rough findings that tanks do about 80% the damage of DPS and assuming 2 DPS and 1 tank, your looking at 100%, 100%, and 80% for the variables. so 3333.33/3 = 1111.11 * .8 = 888.88 DPS for the tank, and 1222.23 DPS for the 2 DPS. Granted, its rough, but i think that gives you a decent enough estimate.

 

Using 888.88DPS as a base, adding 26.7 would be an increase of .03%. But again, thats rough estimates, and i could be completly wrong on them.

[Dracyula]

Using 888.88DPS as a base, adding 26.7 would be an increase of .03%. But again, thats rough estimates, and i could be completly wrong on them.

 

I guess the percentage doesn't really matter, but these numbers seem more accurate.

 

Also keep in mind that if we are talking about an operation where there are more than 3 dps it would be more effective, and in that case the dps of the tank would be much lower than 888.88, which would increase the % gained.

 

Either way, his argument is that if a tank adds 26.7 DPS it allows each damage dealer to increase their dps by 40.5 without pulling aggro, effectively increasing the overall group DPS capability by 26.7+(40.5*Y), where Y equals the number of dpsers in your group.

 

This is only effective if the damage dealers were previously holding back to avoid taking aggro though.

 

D

[VarisRoa]

Uh, take a step back guys lol

 

2 Problems with adding DPS to a tank.

 

First, a tanks job is to hold aggro and mitigate damage as much as possible.

High treat damage or taunt abilities keep aggro while interrupt type abilities along with damage mitigating abilities keep you from dropping too fast.

 

If tanking is so easy that you can afford to drop end for will then you're not doing hard enough content.

Also, some extra will does not constitute "DPS".

 

 

Yes, having 20k hp is pointless if you don't go below 90% health.

20k HP means everything when the healers are stunned or running out of an AoE effect and you gotta stay up with no healing for a few seconds.

 

 

Second, gear is not all made to your dream spec. Sure you can craft parts to OJ gear and get the stats you want.... at first but there are many many purple drops that you can't customise and are clearly DPS or TANK geared.

So if you keep picking up gear that is "will" rather then "end" as the primary stat, you

had better be doing a DPS ghetto tank spec for PvP.

That's because you will have a lot of power and crit along with your coveted will and very little defense, absorb, shield etc, which translateds to you getting reamed in your force sensitive area without lube or a reacharound by anything more difficult then a flashpoint pug listening to the benny hill theme...

 

 

What tank spec works the best, what tanking stat makes the most difference, where are the hard/softcaps for stats/abilities. How much do you need to hit? How much of a difference makes going over 100%?

 

Those are the questions we should be asking and testing.

 

 

Not herp derp, I can haz pretend dps, lawl!

[Feignz]

I got to about page 6 in this thread so sorry if i'm misinformed at this point.

 

I agree entirely with Kitru. Willpower is a much more useful stat for tanking than Endurance for all the many reasons he gave.

 

However, Defense is paramount to Shadow Tanking, and the gear as it stands is set up such that if you want Defense, you need to take the gear that is Endurance stacked over Willpower, so until this changes, the gear players should be choosing, is End > Will, even though in reality, Will > End. But you need the Defense. Simple enough.

[Beastfury]

God when armoring mods will come out and these noobies will be able to stack willpower and run around in hardmodes FP with 14k hp claiming they don't need more .... some pugs will have alot of fun lol.

[Beastfury]

But the healer can't compensate for the lost dps that comes from the actual dps players having to throttle themselves to keep from pulling aggro off you, and this dps is multiplicative and cumulative.

 

Stoped reading there. I have ZERO threat issues on single target. So no dps does not have stop dps to not pull agro, wall of text and 100% pointless.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Beastfury

[Beastfury]

No it isn't. You only "stack" willpower when you have more than enough health for the encounter, which includes whatever cushion that your healers need for "oh snap" moments.

 

There is NEVER more then enough HP to cover Oh snap momenets. NEVER unless you massively overgeared for the content ( in which case it make zero difference does it?) Or content is way too easy in which case yet again it DOESN'T MATTER....

[Arbegla]

I got to about page 6 in this thread so sorry if i'm misinformed at this point.

 

I agree entirely with Kitru. Willpower is a much more useful stat for tanking than Endurance for all the many reasons he gave.

 

However, Defense is paramount to Shadow Tanking, and the gear as it stands is set up such that if you want Defense, you need to take the gear that is Endurance stacked over Willpower, so until this changes, the gear players should be choosing, is End > Will, even though in reality, Will > End. But you need the Defense. Simple enough.

 

A lot of the stronger debates happened from page 9 and on, so your better off reading the rest of the thread before saying either way.

 

Willpower adds a minor amount of DPS, 26.7 per 200 willpower, and adding more endurance adds 10hp/seconds per 200 endurance.

 

Endurance adds to overall mitigation by extending hit points pools, and adding to your self healing, which would directly counter incoming DPS from a boss and Willpower adds to overall DPS, especially if your DPS are holding back to not steal threat.

 

Also, our overall debate has always been Endurance vs Willpower, assuming equal amounts of overall mitigation stats (defense, block, absorb, etc) so adding defense or other mitigation stats to the mix isn't what we're doing here.

[Kitru]

God when armoring mods will come out and these noobies will be able to stack willpower and run around in hardmodes FP with 14k hp claiming they don't need more .... some pugs will have alot of fun lol.

 

So my Shadow Tank that uses Resolve armoring and hilts and completely ignores Force Wielder mods yet somehow manages to have 18k hp without raid buffs or stims is somehow doing it wrong? And, comically enough, I've tanked Hard Modes and Raids with no problem with my "sub-par" hp and had a lot easier time with threat and kill speed justsoyouknow.

 

The difference between the Willpower and Endurance camps is about 200: either 18k hp and 1200 WP or 20k HP and 1000 WP. Within a raid context, that 2k hp is actually pretty insignificant and most people would agree that the additional ~50 DPS you get out of that Willpower (Arbegla keeps doing his math wrong and I have given up trying to correct him since he constantly feels the need to keep getting it wrong even after I correct him) is similarly insignificant in the long run. The question is which value is *less* irrelevant.

 

Personally, I think the 2k hp is the irrelevant portion since, and I have tanked HM FPs and raids, a decent healer will never let you drop low enough for that 2k to make a meaningful difference (and Arbegla's constant insistence that the additional healing you get makes *any* difference is pure folderol since less than a percent of a percent of healing is so low as to be completely ignored). Sure, if you feel like running with undergeared or outright bad healers, you should stack Endurance to make sure you don't die, but, honestly, you'd probably die anyway since the strats for the content in question doesn't really allow for underexperienced or bad players.

[Beastfury]

So my Shadow Tank that uses Resolve armoring and hilts and completely ignores Force Wielder mods yet somehow manages to have 18k hp without raid buffs or stims is somehow doing it wrong? And, comically enough, I've tanked Hard Modes and Raids with no problem with my "sub-par" hp and had a lot easier time with threat and kill speed justsoyouknow.

 

The difference between the Willpower and Endurance camps is about 200: either 18k hp and 1200 WP or 20k HP and 1000 WP. Within a raid context, that 2k hp is actually pretty insignificant and most people would agree that the additional ~50 DPS you get out of that Willpower (Arbegla keeps doing his math wrong and I have given up trying to correct him since he constantly feels the need to keep getting it wrong even after I correct him) is similarly insignificant in the long run. The question is which value is *less* irrelevant.

 

Personally, I think the 2k hp is the irrelevant portion since, and I have tanked HM FPs and raids, a decent healer will never let you drop low enough for that 2k to make a meaningful difference (and Arbegla's constant insistence that the additional healing you get makes *any* difference is pure folderol since less than a percent of a percent of healing is so low as to be completely ignored). Sure, if you feel like running with undergeared or outright bad healers, you should stack Endurance to make sure you don't die, but, honestly, you'd probably die anyway since the strats for the content in question doesn't really allow for underexperienced or bad players.

 

 

 

You just don't get it do you? 18 k hp is OVERGEARED for normal raid end or willpower stacking.... Same for HM flash points, they are mostly dps checks anyway.

 

I tanked all Eternity vault the day i hit 50 mmk... i had 15.5k hp 22% shiled chance and 25% absortion and 22% defense.... So yes you can stack cunning over endurance and tank it just fine.

 

The entire point you missing is that for progression fights HP is needed, and in fact EXTREMELY viable. at 15k hp we had me die to 10k+ damage + some boss damage on the pyramid drops, last night with 20k hp this was NEVER the issue. But then again i have most full T2 gear so i dont even need most drops in that raid aka I AM OVERGEARED.

 

Yes there were many time in my wow carrier when i would start tanking heroics in dps gear, for added dps and Rage. But that is for content that is 1-3 tiers below my gear level..... Not once could i afford to lose hp for some worthless dps on a hardmode progression fight.

 

If you in fact can stack willpower over endurance and do fine in nightmare raids, then this game needs tuning PERIOD. But from what i understand that is not really the case.

 

P.S. I will even give you this. Willpower stacking is BETTER for HM flashpoints because they are dps checks more then anything else. But if you need to tune your gear to beat HM flashpoints you my friend need to L2Play. If that is you end game goal is to run HM flahs points then YES you are right to stack willpower.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Beastfury

[Kitru]

You just don't get it do you? 18 k hp is OVERGEARED for normal raid end or willpower stacking.... Same for HM flash points, they are mostly dps checks anyway.

 

I actually haven't gotten a single tank drop from any of the content I've run (and I've run a lot of it). All of my gear is either from dailies or crafted, which I dearly hope isn't overgeared for anything but nightmare modes since, well, everything except for the daily implants and earpieces are *worse* than what drops in HM FPs or *any* Op whatsoever.

 

Hp stacking won't save you from a 10k hit since, in order to do so, your healer would need to let you stay that low for an extended period of time *and* you didn't use any of your very nice Shadow Tank CDs to make yourself either immune to the attack (Force/Tech w/ Resilience lawl).

 

Honestly, I would say that, since so many of the fights even in raids are DPS races, that stacking Willpower is even better than you might initially consider, though, as I stated before, it depend entirely on the quality of healers you plan on running with. The only healers I run with are guild healers or pugs that I have vetted so I don't need a "bad healer" cushion, which is all you're getting out of that extra 2k hp.

[rakuenCallisto]

Once you get to the point where you aren't going to be killed in the time it takes your healer to throw a heal on you, additional hit points are pointless, even factoring in the additional heals you get from having more hit points.

 

T.H.I.S. This entire thread can be summarized to this last paragraph. No more need for discussion, Kitru is correct. If you HP heavy numbskulls (Jeremy I'm looking at you) can't realize this by now, after all these great discussions, just click out of this thread.

[rakuenCallisto]

How do people not grasp this concept?

 

You get to a certain point where stacking END (health points) diminishes and becomes redundant due to the actual health you gain.

 

His only point about prioritizing Willpower over Endurance is for these main reasons only:

 

1) END diminishes over time (by how much you stack)

2) Most gear will have plenty of Endurance

3) End game you should have so much freakin health, adding more is literally detrimental and doesn't make you any *significantly* stronger.

 

Even without the positives of Willpower, after knowing this, why would you continue to stack and prioritize Endurance?

 

Remember guys - he's not saying it's bad to stack it, just don't make it your first priority.

[Arbegla]

The difference between the Willpower and Endurance camps is about 200: either 18k hp and 1200 WP or 20k HP and 1000 WP. Within a raid context, that 2k hp is actually pretty insignificant and most people would agree that the additional ~50 DPS you get out of that Willpower (Arbegla keeps doing his math wrong and I have given up trying to correct him since he constantly feels the need to keep getting it wrong even after I correct him) is similarly insignificant in the long run. The question is which value is *less* irrelevant.

 

You have YET to correct me on my math showing that 200 willpower (or 40 bonus damage) equates to anything other then 26.7 overall DPS increase. I used KNOWN Coefficients of ALL of our powers, and then broke then down by our rotation (which you've pushed for)

 

Please, show your math on how 40 bonus damage equals 50DPS, as the coefficients don't add up that way. You can't take a power that has .79 coefficient per hit (Telekinetic throw) and say 'well, its adding a straight 40 damage to the power' when its really only adding 31.6 to the total damage, and that's assuming you aren't interrupted, and don't move for the entire duration of the attack.

 

Please correct me using actual numbers we have access to, because you have YET to show that.

Personally, I think the 2k hp is the irrelevant portion since, and I have tanked HM FPs and raids, a decent healer will never let you drop low enough for that 2k to make a meaningful difference (and Arbegla's constant insistence that the additional healing you get makes *any* difference is pure folderol since less than a percent of a percent of healing is so low as to be completely ignored). Sure, if you feel like running with undergeared or outright bad healers, you should stack Endurance to make sure you don't die, but, honestly, you'd probably die anyway since the strats for the content in question doesn't really allow for underexperienced or bad players.

 

And again, your going off less then a percent of a percent of self healing. The difference between 16000 self healing, and 18000 self healing over a 4 minute fight, so 8 TK thrusts, and 2 BRs (8*12 + 10*2 = 116%) is 20880(self healing for 18k) - 18560(self healing for 16k) = 2320 or a 11.11% increase, which equates to about 9.67hp/second increase.

 

Not sure how that is a percent of a percent. Now, if you want to say that the self healing is a 1% of what a healer can do, then your saying that a healer can do between 2,088,000 and 1,856,000 hit points in that same 4 minutes. Or to put it another way, the healer is able to heal 8700hp/second, or 7733.33hp/second, or 1160% the tanks hit points.

 

I'm just not seeing those same numbers, so by all means please explain that way your thinking, because all your doing saying 'Your wrong' and not really explaining why.

[Arbegla]

How do people not grasp this concept?

 

You get to a certain point where stacking END (health points) diminishes and becomes redundant due to the actual health you gain.

 

Not entirely sure how you can say that, as 200 endurance is always 2k hit points. Unless your saying that adding 200 endurance when you already have 2000 endurance isn't worth while, as you already have 20k hit points, so adding another 2k just isn't going to matter. That i could understand, but either way, its still adding hit points.

His only point about prioritizing Willpower over Endurance is for these main reasons only:

 

1) END diminishes over time (by how much you stack)

2) Most gear will have plenty of Endurance

3) End game you should have so much freakin health, adding more is literally detrimental and doesn't make you any *significantly* stronger.

 

Endurance adds mitigation as well as hit points for a shadow tank. Discounting the extra mitigation for extra DPS (especially when both values are extremely minor) just doesn't seem correct.

 

As others have already stated, the current Operations and hard modes are already scaled in such a way that your basic gear at level 50 can jump right into them, and as long as you know what your doing, you'll win. Hitpoints and DPS don't matter as much as just knowing the fights.

Even without the positives of Willpower, after knowing this, why would you continue to stack and prioritize Endurance?

 

Remember guys - he's not saying it's bad to stack it, just don't make it your first priority.

 

Actually he has said its bad to stack, a lot. Please actually read his posts. He's saying that once you hit a point where your healers can keep you alive 100% of the time (we're been calling that time frame X) then you should stack willpower over endurance, as you already have enough endurance to match your healers skill.

 

My issue (and others who have supported me) have basically said 'Because X changes per fight, and even per group, having more of a cushion in extra hit points and mitigation (as endurance does provide mitigation) is better overall.'

 

If X is constant, as in, you run with the same group over and over again and have the fights on 'farm' so things always go smoothly, then by all means stack whatever you want once your comfortable with it, but don't mindless stack endurance OR willpower without knowing the big picture.

[Kitru]

You have YET to correct me on my math showing that 200 willpower (or 40 bonus damage) equates to anything other then 26.7 overall DPS increase. I used KNOWN Coefficients of ALL of our powers, and then broke then down by our rotation (which you've pushed for)

 

You can't take a power that has .79 coefficient per hit (Telekinetic throw) and say 'well, its adding a straight 40 damage to the power' when its really only adding 31.6 to the total damage, and that's assuming you aren't interrupted, and don't move for the entire duration of the attack.

 

Here is an example as to how facepalmingly wrong you are. TK Throw has a .79 coefficient *per tick*. It does not add 31.6 damage to the total damage to the power. It adds .79 * 4 * 40 129.4 damage (or 31.6 *DPS* over the duration of the power, cranked up to 55.3 DPS with 3 stacks of HS). And TK Throw is one of our worst damage powers.

 

The problem is not with my numbers. The problem is with your inability to grasp the fundamental concepts you're working with by ignoring the *actual method of application*. Hell, even in analysis of Endurance you continually misrepresent the benefits of Endurance as it applies to survivability and I'm always having to correct and, even when I do so, you can't even admit that you did it wrong in any appreciable way *because you have no clue that your analysis is using flawed math and/or metrics of comparison*.

 

I've washed my hands of correcting your flawed math because you've just become obtuse about it. Thankfully, other posters (like Dracyula) have stepped up to do what I not longer have the patience to do without breaking the Rules of Conduct.

 

Now, if you want to say that the self healing is a 1% of what a healer can do, then your saying that a healer can do between 2,088,000 and 1,856,000 hit points in that same 4 minutes. Or to put it another way, the healer is able to heal 8700hp/second, or 7733.33hp/second, or 1160% the tanks hit points.

 

You're doing the math wrong here again. I'm saying the increase in healing generated by the additional endurance (re: the gains that were actually considering) are less than a percent of the healing that is going to be thrown on your during a raid. Using your own 9.67 hp/sec number, this equates to a healer doing 967 hp/sec in healing (I manage more than that on my 46 commando). Assuming you have a healing staff (generally translates to 2 healers) that is able to keep up with 4.3k incoming DPS (meaning 2.15k healing/sec which is entirely viable), this 9.67 hp/sec increase *since everything else is standard and therefore ignored in a comparative assessment of improved survivability* translates into only .22% additional healing (9.67 / 4300).

 

all your doing saying 'Your wrong' and not really explaining why.

 

I have *repeatedly* explained why you're wrong and you have stalwartly refused to see the light of math or reality. Your own math isn't even backwards compatible since you routinely change metrics of comparison to justify a concept that, as everyone else has realized long ago, is fundamentally flawed and only justifiable with math that is just as fundamentally flawed.

 

As I said before, I wash my hands of you and leave you in the much more patient hands of people like Drac that somehow still have the reserves to coddle you. I've purposefully not set foot in this discussion for a few days (though I've been reading) specifically *because* I no longer have the patience to continually correct every game mechanics you misinterpret and analysis you screw up.

[oddmyth]

The difference between the Willpower and Endurance camps is about 200

 

I want to figure out for certain if this number is true, so lets look at mod-able things that we can put armoring, mods into.

 

GIVEN: Any tank based gear with +def/shield/absorb will always have more END than WIL. I have found this true in looking at gear of all sorts.

 

GIVEN: We have 6 mod-able slots. Weapon, Head, Chest, Hands, Legs, Feet.

GIVEN: We have 2 slots in each where we can slot WIL over END.

GIVEN: We will never slot WIL over extra secondary stats like def/shield/absorb. This predicates the use of the A series mods that sacrifice def/shield/absorb for more willpower.

 

So we have 12 slots.

 

On the 25 series mods the difference between END and WIL is 19.

On the 25 series mods the difference between END and WIL is 17.

 

6*17 = 102

6*19 = 114

 

Total is 216 difference between WIL and END at the very top level mods and armoring available in this game right now.

 

Fresh 50's will be able to achieve a difference on armoring of 12 and mods of 14

 

6* 12 = 72

6* 14 = 84

 

Total is 156 difference.

 

That is IF you can reslot all your gear with the proper mods. Personally I'm not going to take out a level 56 mod/armoring to replace it with a lower level armoring just so I can get more WIL, and almost all tank gear comes modded with more END than WIL so I think the average here is about half the gear you can mod, will be moddable with something above a 22 mod/armoring.

 

SUMMARY: At 50 pre-raid you will on average be able to mod a difference of about 156/2 = 78 WIL with Resolve based mods/armoring. Once you are raiding and have access to level 56 mods regularly you can max this up to 216 (this is at the Nightmare level however at which point you would be silly to be stacking extra WIL over END).

 

Also I just figured out that each point of WIL is worth 1.1 points of END (ie. 10 points of WIL will cost the stat point equivalent to 11 points of END). So at max level that 216 WIL is actually worth 237 END.

 

More fuel to the fire .

[Beastfury]

I actually haven't gotten a single tank drop from any of the content I've run (and I've run a lot of it). All of my gear is either from dailies or crafted, which I dearly hope isn't overgeared for anything but nightmare modes since, well, everything except for the daily implants and earpieces are *worse* than what drops in HM FPs or *any* Op whatsoever.

 

The orange gear with epic 51 mods = to regular epic drops in hardmodes and normal raid. In some cases better. 18k hp is overgeared. Your hope that it is not over geared is wrong.

 

Hp stacking won't save you from a 10k hit since, in order to do so, your healer would need to let you stay that low for an extended period of time *and* you didn't use any of your very nice Shadow Tank CDs to make yourself either immune to the attack (Force/Tech w/ Resilience lawl).

 

Did you even get to SOA? You clearly not aware of fight mechanics, where 2-3 people can be consistently in mindtrap/flying around. It could easily be 2 healers which is exactly what was happening to us. Where i with my 15.5k hp did not have staying power to last that long without heals and take the 10k+ hit after.

 

 

Honestly, I would say that, since so many of the fights even in raids are DPS races, that stacking Willpower is even better than you might initially consider, though, as I stated before, it depend entirely on the quality of healers you plan on running with. The only healers I run with are guild healers or pugs that I have vetted so I don't need a "bad healer" cushion, which is all you're getting out of that extra 2k hp.

 

Ok lets make this clear Normal raid is a JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

 

Dps race??????????? We had 2 dps that took full 2 min to kill their target on 4rth boss, while decent dps with pre raid gear killled them in ~1min. And yet we met all enrage timers.

 

 

You still refuse to get it through your head. The content you are tanking right now is a JOKE. It can be done with stacking str or cunning. That proves a whole lot of nothing. There is never too much HP that it makes no difference in a well tuned progression fight. EVER or it is not well tuned.

[Arbegla]

Here is an example as to how facepalmingly wrong you are. TK Throw has a .79 coefficient *per tick*. It does not add 31.6 damage to the total damage to the power. It adds .79 * 4 * 40 129.4 damage (or 31.6 *DPS* over the duration of the power, cranked up to 55.3 DPS with 3 stacks of HS). And TK Throw is one of our worst damage powers.

 

You really should look at the numbers your using. For example, lets look at Saber strike (3 hits in 1 GCD)

• Effect Subeffect Type Text
  1 0 condition HasMeleeWeapon: Actor=>Caster
  1 1 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.flurry.melee.jedi_consular.saber_strike_reaction
  1 1 action WeaponDamage: Slots=>[ PrimaryMelee ], Coefficient=>0.33, FlurryBlowsMax=>1, AmountModifierPercent=>-0.66, FlurryBlowsMin=>1
  1 2 condition IsAlive: Actor=>Target
  1 2 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.flurry.melee.jedi_consular.saber_strike_real
  1 2 action WeaponDamage: Slots=>[ PrimaryMelee ], Coefficient=>0.66, FlurryBlowsMax=>2, AmountModifierPercent=>-0.33, FlurryBlowsMin=>2
  2 0 condition HasMeleeWeapon: Negated=>1, Actor=>Caster
  2 1 action WeaponDamage: Slots=>[ PrimaryMelee ], Coefficient=>1, FlurryBlowsMax=>1, AmountModifierFixedMax=>5, AmountModifierFixedMin=>1, AmountModifierPercent=>-1, IgnoreDualWieldModifier=>1, FlurryBlowsMin=>1
  2 1 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.flurry.npc.unarmed

 

It shows you flat out that the first hit is .33, second is .66, and third is 1.0.

 

Looking at TK Thrust your at

• 3 0 init SetDescription: Description=>"Periodic kinetic damage."
  3 0 init SetHidden: IsHidden=>1
  3 0 init SetName: Name=>"Crushed"
  3 0 init SetTickRate: Interval=>1000
  3 0 init SetPassive: IsPassive=>1
  3 0 init SetIcon: IconSpec=>crushed
  3 0 condition HasEffect: FromActor=>None, Negated=>1, Actor=>Caster, Count=>1
  3 1 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.079, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>0.79, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.079, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Kinetic
  3 1 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.jedi_consular.telekinetic_throw.tick
  3 2 action Dispel
  3 2 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.jedi_consular.telekinetic_throw.channel_end
  3 3 condition HasEffect: FromActor=>None, Actor=>Caster, Count=>3
  3 3 action Heal: SpellType=>None, AmountPercent=>0.03
  3 4 condition HasEffect: FromActor=>None, Actor=>Caster, Count=>1
  3 4 action CallEffect: FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>5
  3 5 action Dispel
  3 5 action ModifyCharges: AmountMin=>-1, AbilitySpec=>2305566836536055567, AmountMax=>-1

 

Which only shows the .79. For the entire Duration. Not per tick. That's not the way multiple hit mechanics work, which is what Telekinetic Thrust is.

 

Also looking at Project (arguably our hardest hitting power) you can see for a shadow the coefficient is only

• 2 0 init SetHidden: IsHidden=>1
  2 0 condition IfCalledByEffect
  2 1 action InvokeProjectile: SpellType=>None, Slot=>PrimaryMelee, TravelSpeed=>5
  2 2 condition HasAbility: Rank=>1, Comparison=>, Actor=>Caster, AbilitySpec=>2305637630682250467
  2 2 action CallEffect: ResultsOption_CombatMathOnly=>1, FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>3, Results=>[ 63,32,1 ], ResultsOption_MatchAll=>1
  2 2 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.165, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>1.85, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.205, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Kinetic
  2 3 condition Else
  2 3 action CallEffect: ResultsOption_CombatMathOnly=>1, FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>3, Results=>[ 63,32,1 ], ResultsOption_MatchAll=>1
  2 3 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.136, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>1.56, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.176, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Kinetic

or 1.85 for a shadow tank.

 

Then you add in

• 5 0 init SetHidden: IsHidden=>1
  5 0 condition IfCalledByEffect
  5 1 action InvokeProjectile: SpellType=>None, Slot=>PrimaryMelee, TravelSpeed=>5
  5 2 condition HasAbility: Rank=>1, Comparison=>, Actor=>Caster, AbilitySpec=>2305637630682250467
  5 2 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.073, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>0.925, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.113, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Kinetic
  5 3 condition Else
  5 3 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.058, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>0.78, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.098, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Kinetic

The upheaval proc, which is another .925 coefficient, and multiply by the 45% chance for it to happen, and you have .41625. Add that to the 1.85 base, and you have a coefficient of 2.26625, accounting for both the upheaval proc, and the added damage from being a shadow. Meaning adding 40 bonus damage, only adds 90.65 damage to project. Yes, Project would have 100% chance to crit, so that bonus damage becomes 135.975 damage. But your only using Project every 10 seconds.. so your only gaining 13.5975DPS from that additional 200 willpower.

 

So again, how is that math wrong? Your repeatedly taking the numbers I'm finding and saying 'well, you using them wrong' then in reality, your not even trying to understand them. If the Coefficient was per 'tick' the power would say so, like it does for Saber Strike and Double Strike.

 

Looking over Weaken mind (another DoT) the coefficient is

• Effect details
  Effect Subeffect Type Text
  1 1 action ModifyThreat: AmountMin=>1, AmountMax=>1
  1 1 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.jedi_consular.weaken_mind.cast_instant
  1 2 condition IfSpellHit: SpellType=>Force
  1 2 action CallEffect: FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>2
  2 0 init SetDescription: Description=>"Periodic internal damage."
  2 0 init SetDuration: MaxDuration=>15000, Duration=>15000, Toughness=>1
  2 0 init SetType: BuffType=>Negative
  2 0 init SetName: Name=>"Weaken Mind (Force)"
  2 0 init SetStackLimit: MaxStackCount=>1, IsPerCaster=>1
  2 0 init SetTickRate: Interval=>3000
  2 0 condition IsAlive: Actor=>Target
  2 0 condition IfCalledByEffect
  2 1 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.031, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>0.31, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.031, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Internal
  2 1 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.jedi_consular.weaken_mind.tick
  2 2 action Dispel
  2 3 condition HasAbility: Rank=>1, Comparison=>, Actor=>Caster, AbilitySpec=>2305723376169020144
  2 3 action CallEffect: FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>3
  3 0 init SetDescription: Description=>"Movement speed reduced."
  3 0 init SetDuration: MaxDuration=>15000, Duration=>15000, Toughness=>1
  3 0 init SetName: Name=>"Slowed (Force)"
  3 0 init SetStackLimit: MaxStackCount=>1, IsPerCaster=>1
  3 0 init SetIcon: IconSpec=>movementslowed
  3 0 condition IsAlive: Actor=>Target
  3 0 condition IfCalledByEffect
  3 1 condition HasAbility: Rank=>2, Comparison=>GreaterThan, Actor=>Caster, AbilitySpec=>2305723376169020144
  3 1 action ModifyMovementSpeed: AmountPercent=>80
  3 2 condition HasAbility: Rank=>1, Comparison=>GreaterThan, Actor=>Caster, AbilitySpec=>2305723376169020144
  3 2 action ModifyMovementSpeed: AmountPercent=>90

.31. It doesn't say per tick, So please keep making stuff up to better your point.

 

Prove, that over all, 40 bonus damage will amount to more then 26.7DPS increase over the entire fights duration (as I have by using the rotations you've pushed for) because you simply aren't doing that. Your only looking at half the picture and saying 'yep, your still wrong'

The problem is not with my numbers. The problem is with your inability to grasp the fundamental concepts you're working with by ignoring the *actual method of application*. Hell, even in analysis of Endurance you continually misrepresent the benefits of Endurance as it applies to survivability and I'm always having to correct and, even when I do so, you can't even admit that you did it wrong in any appreciable way *because you have no clue that your analysis is using flawed math and/or metrics of comparison*.

 

I've washed my hands of correcting your flawed math because you've just become obtuse about it. Thankfully, other posters (like Dracyula) have stepped up to do what I not longer have the patience to do without breaking the Rules of Conduct.

 

My time until death metric is a measurement of X. X is what your pushing for, once you get X (the time it'll take your healer to keep you alive) then you don't need anymore willpower.

 

I've broken Endurance down into a time until death metric, and a mitigation metric (as endurance does add mitigation) with Drac, and he's more or less agreed that we're come to the point where its up to preference, because the numbers are just too small overall.

 

Its not very cut and dry like you keep trying to say it is.

 

You're doing the math wrong here again. I'm saying the increase in healing generated by the additional endurance (re: the gains that were actually considering) are less than a percent of the healing that is going to be thrown on your during a raid. Using your own 9.67 hp/sec number, this equates to a healer doing 967 hp/sec in healing (I manage more than that on my 46 commando). Assuming you have a healing staff (generally translates to 2 healers) that is able to keep up with 4.3k incoming DPS (meaning 2.15k healing/sec which is entirely viable), this 9.67 hp/sec increase *since everything else is standard and therefore ignored in a comparative assessment of improved survivability* translates into only .22% additional healing (9.67 / 4300).

 

Finally! An explanation! Instead of insults! Maybe we'll finally get somewhere. I see your point, you already being healed by so much, that adding less then a percent of that to the equation isn't going to help out. Now i understand what your talking about.

 

Your assuming you have the constant attention of not just 1, but 2 healers. This is a pretty faulty assumption, even when you consider fights to be on farm. If you need 2 healers to keep you up and active, then maybe you should focus more on mitigation to prevent you from needing those 2 healers. Endurance provides mitigation. That's my point here. To limit the need for as much healing (and over healing) that would be passed your way.

 

Also, your doing your math wrong, as you won't actually be taking the full 4300DPS. After your other forms of mitigation, your only taking about 2251.76 DPS. After factor in the existing self healing, for 16k hit points, and a 5 minute duration your only going to take 640,929 damage. With 18k hit points, your only taking 638,028 damage.

 

This decreases overall healing required by 9.67hp/second, and would be an increase of (9.67/2251.76) or .429% additional healing. So, yes while your already being healed for so much, adding endurance increases mitigation enough where you'll need less healing (as your taking less damage)

 

I have *repeatedly* explained why you're wrong and you have stalwartly refused to see the light of math or reality. Your own math isn't even backwards compatible since you routinely change metrics of comparison to justify a concept that, as everyone else has realized long ago, is fundamentally flawed and only justifiable with math that is just as fundamentally flawed.

 

Any math i use i explain how, and where i got the numbers from, and exactly how i'm using them. I'm not sure why you can't understand them, as Drac is getting them just fine (and even come to a mutual agreement in regards to which stat to stack, as both gains are extremely minor)

 

I'm sorry your unable to follow the things I'm saying, but as other people are getting it just fine, i feel the problem boils down to you, and not my math. If it was entirely my math, and the way i use it, then other people would have having issues as well, and that is simply not that case.

As I said before, I wash my hands of you and leave you in the much more patient hands of people like Drac that somehow still have the reserves to coddle you. I've purposefully not set foot in this discussion for a few days (though I've been reading) specifically *because* I no longer have the patience to continually correct every game mechanics you misinterpret and analysis you screw up.

 

Your right, because I've never been right, or explained thing in a way that you've understood. Like say, in regards to the Elusiveness vs Mental Fortitude argument we had before. Which basically boiled down to me having to repeat myself over and over again until you finally understood what i was saying.

 

Also, looking over your other posts in other threads, I've noticed that your using almost the exact same arguments i have used against you as a means to prove you point to others and my exact assumptions (force/tech vs range/melee generally being a 50/50 split) so obviously some things I've said have been correct as your repeating them as though they are solid known facts.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Arbegla

[genesiser]

Doesn't it all come down to your healers?

 

If you have good healers then you can get away with more will power and dish out more dps.

 

If you have bad healers then you have to stack more endurance.

 

I would say just ask your healers what they prefer.

[Arbegla]

Doesn't it all come down to your healers?

 

If you have good healers then you can get away with more will power and dish out more dps.

 

If you have bad healers then you have to stack more endurance.

 

I would say just ask your healers what they prefer.

 

If the benefit either way was that big of a deal, then yes, but as we're already pointed out (on both sides of the argument) the benefit isn't very noticeable either way, once you disregard the 'wow' factor of having 18k hit over 16k hp. (or 20k over 18k, etc)

[Kitru]

Which only shows the .79. For the entire Duration. Not per tick. That's not the way multiple hit mechanics work, which is what Telekinetic Thrust is.

 

And you're reading it wrong. The listed coefficients are the values that show up on your screen. If your Saber Strike says it deals 333, 666, and then 1000 damage, you did not deal 2000 damage with your 3 strikes; you dealt 1000 damage since static multi-hit attacks (those that always hit the same number of times) like Saber Strike and Double Strike show the sum of damage as it is generated. TK Throw shows each tick of damage independently since, as far as the game is concerned, each is a separate entity (otherwise you wouldn't lose ticks by losing the channel). When TK Throw shows 4 separate ticks of 500 damage, you didn't just deal 500 damage: you dealt 2000 damage. Since each tick is handled as a separate attack rather than as a part of a static chain of attacks (like DS, CS, and SS) each tick of damage (and each coefficient) stack together.

 

If you actually paid attention and thought critically, you would realize why you are wrong without needing to have it explained. TK Throw deals more damage than Saber Strike outright and *obviously*. It is not logically consistent that, if Saber Strike deals less damage and bonus damage scales proportionate to the damage dealt by your basic attack, that Saber Strike would have a *higher* coefficient than TK Throw.

 

So again, how is that math wrong?

 

Because, as always, you fail at critical thinking and interpretation of data.

 

Also, looking over your other posts in other threads, I've noticed that your using almost the exact same arguments i have used against you as a means to prove you point to others and my exact assumptions (force/tech vs range/melee generally being a 50/50 split) so obviously some things I've said have been correct as your repeating them as though they are solid known facts.

 

I do not use your arguments. I use your assumptions, simply because that gives us a starting point from which to go from. There is a *massive* difference between using your assumptions (which I only use when I have no other reasonable estimates to replace them with) and using your arguments (which are generally founded on flawed assumptions and magical math).

[Arbegla]

And you're reading it wrong. The listed coefficients are the values that show up on your screen. If your Saber Strike says it deals 333, 666, and then 1000 damage, you did not deal 2000 damage with your 3 strikes; you dealt 1000 damage since static multi-hit attacks (those that always hit the same number of times) like Saber Strike and Double Strike show the sum of damage as it is generated. TK Throw shows each tick of damage independently since, as far as the game is concerned, each is a separate entity (otherwise you wouldn't lose ticks by losing the channel). When TK Throw shows 4 separate ticks of 500 damage, you didn't just deal 500 damage: you dealt 2000 damage. Since each tick is handled as a separate attack rather than as a part of a static chain of attacks (like DS, CS, and SS) each tick of damage (and each coefficient) stack together.

 

You need to look over those numbers again. Double strike specifically say 'Hits twice, deals X damage PER hit' And the coefficients tell that tale. DoT, and channeled attacks do not work that way.

 

Coefficients are not the values that show up on your screen, the base values of your attacks are what are shown on your screen. You can easily test this by increasing your willpower or other DPS stat (like power) and then double checking your tool tips before and after. Your coefficients aren't added to the value your shown in game, they are added when you use the power, against the enemy.

 

TK Thrust says, in torhead.com, that it Hurls a volley of debris at the target, dealing 4089 kinetic damage and slowing movement speed by 50%. Standard and weak targets are immobilized for the duration. If you are interrupted, you still don't deal 4089 damage. Test this in game. Look at the damage TK Thrust says it does, and then look at the damage you do with TK Thrust after interrupting the channel. Its easy enough to test, and I have. Each tick don't do the damage that TK Thrust says, its a combination of all 4 ticks.

 

Same for Weaken Mind. If the mob dies before the 15 seconds duration, it doesn't suddenly do the full amount of damage it says.

 

Maybe your the one that needs to think critically.

If you actually paid attention and thought critically, you would realize why you are wrong without needing to have it explained. TK Throw deals more damage than Saber Strike outright and *obviously*. It is not logically consistent that, if Saber Strike deals less damage and bonus damage scales proportionate to the damage dealt by your basic attack, that Saber Strike would have a *higher* coefficient than TK Throw.

 

The 'tooltip' of Saber strike says, in torhead.com that it deals 224 - 274 weapon damage spread across a flurry of 3 melee attacks. That damage is then divided by the 3 hits. If you actually look at the damage of Saber strike, you'll see that the first hit does 1/3 the last hit, the second hit does 2/3 the damage of the last hit, and the last hit hits the hardest. This is again easy enough to see by just using the power in question. That's what the coefficients are saying.

 

Because, as always, you fail at critical thinking and interpretation of data.

And you completely ignored my math on Project and its coefficients, which i used in my equation to show that 200 willpower equals 26.7 DPS overall.

 

I do not use your arguments. I use your assumptions, simply because that gives us a starting point from which to go from. There is a *massive* difference between using your assumptions (which I only use when I have no other reasonable estimates to replace them with) and using your arguments (which are generally founded on flawed assumptions and magical math).

 

So you use my assumptions, which you yourself say are flawed.. hmm.. If they are so flawed all the time, then why even use them? Why not come up with your own?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Arbegla

[Zintair]

Wow got crit hard on this page.

 

Feels like the debate are just people refusing to concede that there might be other ways to stack tanking stats.

 

I've tried Kitru's method as best I can by swapping in Mods where I could and currently sit at around 1550 / 1250 End/Will.

 

I have no survivability issues and often provide added DPS to help beat the hard mode enrage timers when I have fresh 50 DPS.

 

Come SOA Hard and Nightmare however there is no question this WILL NOT work.

 

I would take the extra 2k HP personally. Those Gold triangle 10k shots are painful when you need CDs and your healer is Mind Trapped.

 

EDIT: That said the Columni Gear will probably be able to boost my stats too 1700/1350 anyway which is about right where I think a healthy balance exists. In a 8-16 man Id gear on the side of HP > DPS any day of the week.

 

For the rest of the content however and Normal EV Willpower is the way IMO.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Zintair