Endurance v. Willpower (Shadow Tanking)

[Torxious]

I've read a few guides posted in the forums and elsewhere and I may have just overlooked it but does anyone have any input on the relative priority of Endurance v. Willpower in tanking. Bottom line, as a shadow tank, do I want to stack endurance or willpower? Do I want to balance them out? What does willpower contribute to survivability?

 

As I have been leveling I have obtained many pieces of gear with similar stats but one will have a little more endurance while the other will have a little more willpower instead. I have been leaning toward taking the piece with a little more endurance and a little less willpower. Same with item mods, I'm looking for my high stat to be endurance.

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Kennai]

For tanking, I'd suggest endurance just because health. Other than that, my impression of tanking as a shadow, granted I'm only level 39 and switched over to the tank spec because I found my DPS as infiltrator lacking, is that you rely on your CD and chance to not take damage. This means you'll want high defense to reduce your chance of even being hit. Shield rating seems to be something shadows have a naturally high amount of. Roughly 35% chance for your shield to take it. So I'm not 100% sure if it would be better to focus on defense and absorption over defense, shield and absorption.

[Arnock]

I'm only level 31 and I haven't run too many flashpoints, so take this advice with a few grains of salt.

 

 

From what I understand, willpower is purely a threat stat for us, so if you have trouble holding aggro, get more willpower, if not, then stack endurance.

 

But you also need armor, defense, shield, and absorption rating as well.

 

 

My instincts tell me that the non-endurance survivability stat priority should be Defense>Shield>absorption, but without hard numbers or formulas to see how those stats scale, you can't really tell for sure.

[Kitru]

For tanking, I'd suggest endurance just because health.

 

Health does not directly contribute to your survivability within Flashpoints or Operations. While solo, it has some utility if you are not at a point where the use of your own abilities and a healer companion allow you to overcome any incoming damage, even from champions.

 

Stacking Endurance is not an appreciable expenditure of gearing largely because its only contribution to tank survivability is to increase the amount of damage you can take without receiving any heals before you die. Since default hp is so high compared to incoming damage, stacking additional endurance has little to no comparative contribution to your survivability in legitimate tanking situations. Willpower, on the other hand, increases your damage output (which is *excellent* even when compared to pure DPS) and threat, making your allies less likely to die and allowing them to DPS harder without risk of pulling off of you.

 

As a tank, you should prioritize as follows: (Defense>Shield>Absorb)>Willpower>Endurance. Endurance just doesn't do enough to make it worthwhile to stack to any appreciable extent.

[Akzent]

you wanna take the gear that has more endurance than willpower and gear that has +defense/absorb/shield rating/etc, but all this gear will have a decent amount of willpower as well, usually like on comm vendors there will be one with more end than wp and one with more wp than end, more end is the tanking one and the wp one is more for dps and healers

[Mortal_Sword]

Health does not directly contribute to your survivability within Flashpoints or Operations. While solo, it has some utility if you are not at a point where the use of your own abilities and a healer companion allow you to overcome any incoming damage, even from champions.

 

Stacking Endurance is not an appreciable expenditure of gearing largely because its only contribution to tank survivability is to increase the amount of damage you can take without receiving any heals before you die. Since default hp is so high compared to incoming damage, stacking additional endurance has little to no comparative contribution to your survivability in legitimate tanking situations. Willpower, on the other hand, increases your damage output (which is *excellent* even when compared to pure DPS) and threat, making your allies less likely to die and allowing them to DPS harder without risk of pulling off of you.

 

As a tank, you should prioritize as follows: (Defense>Shield>Absorb)>Willpower>Endurance. Endurance just doesn't do enough to make it worthwhile to stack to any appreciable extent.

 

This.

[Beastfury]

Health does not directly contribute to your survivability within Flashpoints or Operations. While solo, it has some utility if you are not at a point where the use of your own abilities and a healer companion allow you to overcome any incoming damage, even from champions.

 

Stacking Endurance is not an appreciable expenditure of gearing largely because its only contribution to tank survivability is to increase the amount of damage you can take without receiving any heals before you die. Since default hp is so high compared to incoming damage, stacking additional endurance has little to no comparative contribution to your survivability in legitimate tanking situations. Willpower, on the other hand, increases your damage output (which is *excellent* even when compared to pure DPS) and threat, making your allies less likely to die and allowing them to DPS harder without risk of pulling off of you.

 

As a tank, you should prioritize as follows: (Defense>Shield>Absorb)>Willpower>Endurance. Endurance just doesn't do enough to make it worthwhile to stack to any appreciable extent.

 

 

You never tanked much in other MMO's did you...

[Kitru]

You never tanked much in other MMO's did you...

 

Actually, I did. Prolifically. I also enjoyed point out that in a vast number of other MMOs tanks that blinded stack their hitpoints without considering the situation in question and the design of the game itself are friggin' idiots. If anyone believes that hit points are a decent metric by which to judge a tank, they're following an outdated model of survivability.

[XGrievusX]

Actually, I did. Prolifically. I also enjoyed point out that in a vast number of other MMOs tanks that blinded stack their hitpoints without considering the situation in question and the design of the game itself are friggin' idiots. If anyone believes that hit points are a decent metric by which to judge a tank, they're following an outdated model of survivability.

 

I think what most people are trying to say is we have a new game, with people you don't know, with new healers and a click and heal UI. Endurance and health provide a margin for error. For now stack endurance, once you become knowledgeable and are being healed by skilled knowledgable healers then you should min/max other attributes and worry less about endurance. I believe the devs are emphasizing its importance early on as indicated by obvious tank shadow gear statistically having more endurance.

[Morrtin]

Kitru you say: Defense > Shield > Absorption

 

Alratan Guide says: Shield > Defense > Absorption

 

Is there a game mechanic explanation for that or is it just a "What I feel" decision?

[Kitru]

Is there a game mechanic explanation for that or is it just a "What I feel" decision?

 

My explanation is as follows:

 

Defense mitigates 100% of incoming damage when it occurs.

Shield mitigates 20-30+% of incoming damage when it occurs, which can only take place after Defense fails.

Absorb increases the contribution of your Shield rating.

 

With a 4:2:1 ratio of need (you need 4 points of Defense to get the same percent gain benefits to the stat that you get from 2 points of Shield or 1 point of Absorb), this means that Defense is worth 25% (100% reduction / 4 point per percent), Shield is worth 15% (30% reduction / 2), and Absorb simply works to increase your contribution of Shield (so high absorb with no shield is functionally worthless).

 

Since, per point, Defense mitigates more than Shield and higher Defense reduces the value of Shield (which is the value of Absorb is tied to), Defense takes precedence. Since Absorb value is only worthwhile with high Shield value, Shield takes the next spot. Absorb, with no other defensive value to compete with, goes last.

 

This doesn't, however, mean you should stack only Defense. Because of diminishing returns, you want to stack all of them, but simply have more Defense than Shield and Shield than Absorb. The ratios I've found that work best are 5:4:3 and 4:3:2.

 

This is simply the logical underpinnings of my statement. Of course, if you care more about averaging out your incoming damage rather than reducing the maximum amount of it over time, you probably want to stack in a different way. Personally, I've found that long fights mean that you can play the long odds and go for the biggest bang for your buck over time. Spike damage over short periods of time is what your CDs are there for.

[Morrtin]

Thanks Kitru.

 

Also our two abilities help to increase defense:

 

Double-bladed Saber Defense

Shadowsight

 

If I am right then defense gets more "important"

[Kitru]

If I am right then defense gets more "important"

 

Yes, each additional percent of Defense (or any percentage based damage reduction mechanism for that matter) is more potent than the last because it decreases your comparative damage taken by a larger and larger amount. Nominally, this benefit is overcome by the presence of diminishing returns, however, so it's not something you can really rely on for being true in this case.

[Alratan]

Kitru you say: Defense > Shield > Absorption

 

Alratan Guide says: Shield > Defense > Absorption

 

Is there a game mechanic explanation for that or is it just a "What I feel" decision?

 

Note that with the calcs of Kitru and LagunaD, that bit has now been revised a little . Once I have a little more time, I'm going to look properly into it to add a bit regarding the 5:4:3 and 4:3:2 ratios Kitru mentioned.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Alratan

[Beastfury]

Actually, I did. Prolifically. I also enjoyed point out that in a vast number of other MMOs tanks that blinded stack their hitpoints without considering the situation in question and the design of the game itself are friggin' idiots. If anyone believes that hit points are a decent metric by which to judge a tank, they're following an outdated model of survivability.

 

Another one of those blind HP is pointless rtards, i saw countless liek you in wow. The fact that MT of #1 world guild stacked sta, clearly means nothing because all sta stacking tanks were rtards and it clearly didn't work. I have yet to see a choice in this game between endurance and shield/defense/absorption rating. It is always willpower vs endurance. Willpower does 100% nothing to your survivability. HP even though might now reduce damage taken in anyway has 2 major benefits.

 

1) It reduces overheal, if healers feel comfortable keeping you slightly below 100%, rather then spaming to keep you alive, they have SIGNIFICANTLY less overheal.

 

2) I protects you in Oh **** moments, healer stuned/interupted or massive damage spike. It also inreases healing from your kinitics, abet it is not huge but it is there.

 

Unless content is too easy, HP is was and will be best stat for under geared tanks to survive.

Why undergeared? Because in any progression fight you are undergeared, 3 weeks later on your 4th kill you might not need all that hp, but you dont need extra anything else either, it is a farm fight already.

[Mekkanon]

Can i just say the the reason the #1 wow tank is stacking stam is because he already has 100% chance dmg reduction with block dodge and parry combined.

 

I think avoidance tanking is what the consular tank is build around, seeing as his active abilities focus on that.

 

Furthermore i think that stat stacking will work the same as in wow as soon as diminishing returns start to pop up.

 

Anywho, go for endurance over will when you feel you lack survivability. Go for willpower over End when you feel you cannot hold threat.

[worldsapartmm]

There is a reason why you get gear that has more Endurance than Willpower.

 

GUESS...

 

And it's not because Bioware doesn't know what they're doing.

 

Tanks take more damage than anyone else in the party (when done correctly, anyway, heh...). Tanking gear for shadow tanks favors Endurance over Willpower. There's no mystery here. Tanks have to have more hp than everyone else because healers have to heal everyone else in addition to the tank. You have to have that cushion or you're dead. Bioware isn't doing anything new or original with tanking mechanics in this game compared to other MMOs, even with introduction of ranged tanking via Trooper Vanguard (guess who else prefers Endurance over other stats?).

 

Endurance will always be the primary tanking stat. Everyone else's nice ideas go out the window when the refuse hits the trash compactor.

 

Does this mean you should refuse gear that has more Willpower than Endurance? Certainly not, if it's still better than what you're currently using.

 

And, finally, at the end of the day, test things for yourself. You will probably find that it's better to stack Endurance over Willpower, but until you try it both ways you'll never really know.

Edited December 28, 2011 by worldsapartmm

[Beastfury]

Can i just say the the reason the #1 wow tank is stacking stam is because he already has 100% chance dmg reduction with block dodge and parry combined.

 

I think avoidance tanking is what the consular tank is build around, seeing as his active abilities focus on that.

 

Furthermore i think that stat stacking will work the same as in wow as soon as diminishing returns start to pop up.

 

Anywho, go for endurance over will when you feel you lack survivability. Go for willpower over End when you feel you cannot hold threat.

 

MT of #1 guild was a druid but ya ok

[Froteus]

At 40 I'm finding I mostly go for the tank prices but do use 2-3 dps prices for a slight threat increase. I lose threat occasionally to a trigger happy commando who unloads before I establish solid aggro, but for the most part I have zero threat issues.

 

I find my damage is fantastic as well as mitigation, I'd say all tank prices is probably a great idea.

 

I also prefer extra health cushion. Without that extra health the last boss in Jedi prison would e been brutal; the healer had pay attention to dps and many times I was out of line of sight. 1000 HP made the difference.

[Mortal_Sword]

I think what most people are trying to say is we have a new game, with people you don't know, with new healers and a click and heal UI. Endurance and health provide a margin for error. For now stack endurance, once you become knowledgeable and are being healed by skilled knowledgable healers then you should min/max other attributes and worry less about endurance. I believe the devs are emphasizing its importance early on as indicated by obvious tank shadow gear statistically having more endurance.

 

Don't give people bad advice to try to make up for poor playskill. Stacking endurance does not serve a beneficial purpose, as it only marginally increases your hitpoints. Most equipment provides a sufficient amount of END if you choose the version that has a higher primary stat. What was said above is absolutely true. I promise you will die on FPs and Ops just as often with 1k extra health if your healer is bad. Mitigation and Avoidance has always been more important than raw HP, and the ability to compete on DPS and hold aggro is terribly important.

[Mortal_Sword]

The mindless HP stackers are killing me here. Obviously stacking HP is great when you've reached Defense and Shields caps. Neglecting your primary stat which contributes to all of your abilities, threat generation and DPS is foolish. No one is saying that Endurance isn't important, but if you notice...that stat is pretty high on almost any piece of gear.

 

Playskill is paramount, so nix any arguments about overheal, cushions, etc. If yer bad, you'll die. End of story.

 

Holding threat and contributing positively to DPS is also incredibly important. Dealing more damage means that you A) generate more threat, and B) End fights sooner. Generating more threat keeps the damage on YOU. Ending fights sooner keeps the healers from exhausting their resources.

 

People drawing parallels to WoW, while this is a very different game, keep in mind that endgame tanks had to stack DPS stats like Hit to stay competitive on threat. Also, lol at the above mention of the #1 Mt in the world on WoW, and the followup from someone else pointing out that it was a druid tank, which was notorious for being a HP based build.

 

 

While leveling I strongly suggest you balance your stats and use your cooldowns accordingly. Make friends with good healers and good DPS, and you'll have more success in the FPs.

 

Endgame is still being crunched right now, but the stats on the gear make things pretty obvious.

[Froteus]

Yeh for now I stack end cause I'm pugging to 50 for the most part.

 

At 50 I will re-evaluate and probably go with less endurance and more willpower since mitigations will drastically improve as well as the output of my groups dps.

I'll need more threat then. For now end end end.

[Zintair]

Heres a little curve ball for the "know it alls" in this thread.

 

Im currently in some T2 Columni Gear.

 

Every single piece of this T2 set has to similarties:

 

1) End > Willpower

(This is true for every single Shadow Tank Set)

 

2) There is no Defense or Shield really. Its all Accuracy and Absorb.

 

The gear is pre-modded with lvl 56 Mod/Enhancement (something that doesn't appear to be achievable anywhere else except maybe from drops)

 

The only + Defense and Shield I saw from T1-T2 was on the implants and perhaps my T2 Shield Generator. (There are no Mods or Enhancements for Daily Commendations either)

 

 

 

The gear at 50 is pre-determined until more high level mods become available.

[Beastfury]

Sounds about right. There is zero options for trading endurance for any meaningful tanking stat. Outside of switching to a dps piece you have no option. I can see it being possible with mods where armoring is endurance/willpower so you might be able to trade endurance for willpower. But the argument of hp vs mitigation is irrelevant here. As for will power vs end... if you cant hold threat then you might need more willpower, but more probable you need accuracy or you need to l2play.

[Zintair]

Sounds about right. There is zero options for trading endurance for any meaningful tanking stat. Outside of switching to a dps piece you have no option. I can see it being possible with mods where armoring is endurance/willpower so you might be able to trade endurance for willpower. But the argument of hp vs mitigation is irrelevant here. As for will power vs end... if you cant hold threat then you might need more willpower, but more probable you need accuracy or you need to l2play.

 

Exactly this.

 

I can hold aggro against one of the best geared Sentinels and Server first 50. I use exclusively End > Willpower

 

Defense > Accuracy > Absorb > Shield

 

Seems to be how the gearing should be.

 

Basically based off the fact that Shadows can achieve the highest Shield Rating therefore their ability to Absorb and even higher amount of damage becomes paramount. Defense seems to linger around 25%ish.