Is level 55 HM/NIM ops in a very Awkward position now?

[Slowpokeking]

It doesn't drop useful gear to level 60s, other than a few decor and mount(some also drops in SM), it's pointless to do.

 

But at the same time, it's also quite hard, especially DF and DP, unless the level 50 ops, which you can faceroll or 2 men it. So people aren't willing to do these ops compare to the level 50 or 60 ones.

[kojottt]

I had to log in to answer to that.

Well in 2.0 EC nim was still hard for pugs, even 1st boss, so it's understandable that 55lev ops @ hm/nim have some difficulty. And that difficulty lies only with mechanics - which aren't that hard. People seem to want EV-like content when most of the stuff is kill, kill, and kill.

 

l2p, learn tactics and even nim content will be doable

 

EDIT:

I remember being in a group that was struggling with SM DP, yet one of the guys-morons, wanted to do nim version, because it drops certain mount. He even said that cleared hm, but achievements told the truth.

 

tl;dr

l2p, learn bloody tactics, learn your class

Edited August 8, 2015 by kojottt

[Slowpokeking]

I had to log in to answer to that.

Well in 2.0 EC nim was still hard for pugs, even 1st boss, so it's understandable that 55lev ops @ hm/nim have some difficulty. And that difficulty lies only with mechanics - which aren't that hard. People seem to want EV-like content when most of the stuff is kill, kill, and kill.

 

l2p, learn tactics and even nim content will be doable

 

EDIT:

I remember being in a group that was struggling with SM DP, yet one of the guys-morons, wanted to do nim version, because it drops certain mount. He even said that cleared hm, but achievements told the truth.

 

tl;dr

l2p, learn bloody tactics, learn your class

 

It's not L2P, but you can't find a group easily. Many guilds also rather spend their focuson Rav/Tos HM and do some faceroll level 50 ops or level 55 SM ops.

 

Why do we need to L2P when it doesn't drop good stuff?

Edited August 8, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[FerkWork]

It doesn't drop useful gear to level 60s, other than a few decor and mount(some also drops in SM), it's pointless to do.

 

But at the same time, it's also quite hard, especially DF and DP, unless the level 50 ops, which you can faceroll or 2 men it. So people aren't willing to do these ops compare to the level 50 or 60 ones.

 

 

Groups and Guilds do it for fun to get more Decos and Mounts in NiM. My guild runs DF/DP NiM at least twice a week and about 3 SnV/TFB NiM runs. Most guilds I know do these Ops for mounts and skip the 50 stuff as the mounts are dumb besides the tank in EC

 

Don't worry thu will bump them all up so they will be harder and drop gear attainable in easier content. So lawlz

Edited August 8, 2015 by FerkWork

[Slowpokeking]

Groups and Guilds do it for fun to get more Decos and Mounts in NiM. My guild runs DF/DP NiM at least twice a week and about 3 SnV/TFB NiM runs.

 

Don't worry they will bump they all up so they will be harder and drop gear attainable in easier content. Leeeeee

 

But many of them don't do it often cause it doesn't have some useful drop, especially when they can't do it easily.

[FerkWork]

But many of them don't do it often cause it doesn't have some useful drop, especially when they can't do it easily.

 

Groups do it a lot on my server way more than the 50s. Define Useful?

 

Mounts and Decos are vanity. 50 Ops drop useless besides vanities.

 

In 4.0 you will have useful gear drop from DP NiM but it's useless to do as you can get it from DP HM.

Edited August 8, 2015 by FerkWork

[Slowpokeking]

Groups do it a lot on my server way more than the 50s. Define Useful?

 

Mounts and Decos are vanity. 50 Ops drop useless besides vanities.

 

In 4.0 you will have useful gear drop from DP NiM but it's useless to do as you can get it from DP HM.

 

Which Server? I'm on Harbinger and they don't do it often, pug group also asks for your achievement link.

[Slowpokeking]

To be honest, I don't even want anything from the ops other than the achievement trophy decor on the SH wall.

[TACeMossie]

You know, the gear from NiM DF/DP isn't completely useless. The set bonus is about even with the new one for Virulence/Lethality (186 vs 198), and the Sorc/Sage DPS set bonus of rating 186 completely steamrolls the new one.

[mbfhl]

You know, the gear from NiM DF/DP isn't completely useless. The set bonus is about even with the new one for Virulence/Lethality (186 vs 198), and the Sorc/Sage DPS set bonus of rating 186 completely steamrolls the new one.

 

Lethality most definitely does not want an old set bonus.

[TACeMossie]

Lethality most definitely does not want an old set bonus.

 

Dammit I meant Virulence/Dirty Fighting

 

Also very delayed response is delayed

[Methoxa]

Why should "useful" gear drop from old NM operations? When the Nightmarepower buff was removed and thus palace/fortress nerfed it already was faceroll to clear the operation but now after lvl cap increase and new gear its just a joke. But still ppl demand more than commondations for doing an very easy operation...

 

Besides there are 2 mounts the rancor and wings + some furniture. What else you want? Good equip? Well then do actual operation and not the classics. Classics are for vanity and historic feeling.

[FerkWork]

Why should "useful" gear drop from old NM operations? When the Nightmarepower buff was removed and thus palace/fortress nerfed it already was faceroll to clear the operation but now after lvl cap increase and new gear its just a joke. But still ppl demand more than commondations for doing an very easy operation...

 

Besides there are 2 mounts the rancor and wings + some furniture. What else you want? Good equip? Well then do actual operation and not the classics. Classics are for vanity and historic feeling.

 

It's useful gear for my Sorc since BW can't give us a decent 6 piece that is at least equal to the old 4 and new 2

[Slowpokeking]

Why should "useful" gear drop from old NM operations? When the Nightmarepower buff was removed and thus palace/fortress nerfed it already was faceroll to clear the operation but now after lvl cap increase and new gear its just a joke. But still ppl demand more than commondations for doing an very easy operation...

 

Besides there are 2 mounts the rancor and wings + some furniture. What else you want? Good equip? Well then do actual operation and not the classics. Classics are for vanity and historic feeling.

 

Then they should nerf it to faceroll if it's not going to drop useful gears.

[Khevar]

Then they should nerf it to faceroll if it's not going to drop useful gears.

Honest and genuine question: Why should the HM / NM be nerfed to a faceroll experience? What benefit is there to doing this?

 

You're not even talking about the SM version, you're talking about HM.

 

What would be the purpose of "nerf the HM to faceroll"?

[Slowpokeking]

Honest and genuine question: Why should the HM / NM be nerfed to a faceroll experience? What benefit is there to doing this?

 

You're not even talking about the SM version, you're talking about HM.

 

What would be the purpose of "nerf the HM to faceroll"?

 

Cause it's not top tier ops anymore. It doesn't drop good gear anymore. Many people don't want to try it because of the drop is mostly usless, why not spend time and repair fee at Rav/ToS?

 

You make new ops to create new challenge, not let the old one stay difficult and drop little useful gears.

[Khevar]

Cause it's not top tier ops anymore. It doesn't drop good gear anymore. Many people don't want to try it because of the drop is mostly usless, why not spend time and repair fee at Rav/ToS?

 

You make new ops to create new challenge, not let the old one stay difficult and drop little useful gears.

Okay, so let's say you have someone that simply wanted to try SnV/DF/DP as you mention above. Wouldn't they be trying that on SM?

 

IMO, the only reason that HM even exists AT ALL is to for players that want more of a challenge than SM can offer.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Okay, so let's say you have someone that simply wanted to try SnV/DF/DP as you mention above. Wouldn't they be trying that on SM?

 

IMO, the only reason that HM even exists AT ALL is to for players that want more of a challenge than SM can offer.

 

Why would they just want to try SM? Being casual players don't mean they just want to experience the story plot. Many causal players love to faceroll HM NIM EV/KP/EC to get ult comm and mount/decor drops.

 

Sure in 55 era it existed for this reason, it was for players to challenge, but that era is over. Now we are in the 3.0 era. Ops like Rav/ToS is for the challenge now. We don't see WOW keep re-scale old raid, they nerf old raid bosses when new ones came out to so the majority of the players could experience more.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Actually they did the opposite thing, nerf all the classes in 3.0 so even with 5 level higher, much higher tier gear and new skills, the level 55 HM/NIM ops are still difficult to many pugs and some guilds.

[Khevar]

Why would they just want to try SM? Being casual players don't mean they just want to experience the story plot. Many causal players love to faceroll HM NIM EV/KP/EC to get ult comm and mount/decor drops.

So is your argument that level 55 HM/NM operations should be returned to require nothing more than a faceroll just so they can get the decor and/or the mounts?

Sure in 55 era it existed for this reason, it was for players to challenge, but that era is over. Now we are in the 3.0 era. Ops like Rav/ToS is for the challenge now. We don't see WOW keep re-scale old raid, they nerf old raid bosses when new ones came out to so the majority of the players could experience more.

I can't tell if you're crossing this thread with your other thread. This thread isn't about re-scaling the old operations to level 65 when 4.0 comes out. It's about running the level 55 HM operations right now.

 

When NM DF/DP were relevant as top-tier, they were quite difficult. Are you saying they haven't gotten easier? Because they most certainly have. But there is a funny thing about fights with mechanics, is that it requires more than just better gear to beat it.

 

The reasons why the level 50 operations can be 2-manned is that the ten level difference damage reduction is SO VAST that most mechanics can be completely ignored. This isn't the case with a five level difference. It still requires coordination.

 

Some people enjoy that sort of thing. It sounds like you don't. I also suspect that you'd be happiest if the deco/mounts were handed out for free by an NPC at the operations entrance.

 

/shrug

Edited August 13, 2015 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

So is your argument that level 55 HM/NM operations should be returned to require nothing more than a faceroll just so they can get the decor and/or the mounts?

 

Of course

 

Because we are at 3.0 for more than 8 months. Even in NiM, these ops only drop 180-186 tier gears when those HM FP drops 192 and even most of the casual players are 190-198 mixed. It would be dumb if the ops still keeps difficulty to players with 2-6 levels higher tier plus 5 more character levels. That's not how it works in MMO. Look at WOW for example.

 

I can't tell if you're crossing this thread with your other thread. This thread isn't about re-scaling the old operations to level 65 when 4.0 comes out. It's about running the level 55 HM operations right now.

 

When NM DF/DP were relevant as top-tier, they were quite difficult. Are you saying they haven't gotten easier? Because they most certainly have. But there is a funny thing about fights with mechanics, is that it requires more than just better gear to beat it.

 

The reasons why the level 50 operations can be 2-manned is that the ten level difference damage reduction is SO VAST that most mechanics be completely ignored. This isn't the case with a five level difference. It still requires coordination.

 

Some people enjoy that sort of thing. It sounds like you don't. I also suspect that you'd be happiest if the deco/mounts were handed out for free by an NPC at the operations entrance.

 

/shrug

 

No, Bioware nerfed all classes so it didn't become easier than it should have been.

 

Not just that, those level 50 ops have much less 1 shot mech(which was overused in level 55 ones) and there was a big nerf on the characters in the 3.0 patch.

 

Why not? Why should a level 55 ops with level 168-186 tier gear drop provide such difficulty to level 60 players with 190-198 mix? It's not how it works in MMO. If you want challenge, it should be provided with level 60 new ops, not the old ones.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

Of course

 

Because we are at 3.0 for more than 8 months. Even in NiM, these ops only drop 180-186 tier gears when those HM FP drops 192 and even most of the casual players are 190-198 mixed. It would be dumb if the ops still keeps difficulty to players with 2-6 levels higher tier plus 5 more character levels. That's not how it works in MMO. Look at WOW for example.

Adjusting difficulty is one thing.

 

Let me remind you, that you specifically asked for "faceroll".

No, Bioware nerfed all classes so it didn't become easier than it should have been.

"Should have been" is subjective. That's a matter of personal taste, so I'm not going to engage you on it.

 

I will say that I've seen guilds be completely stuck on a boss (e.g. Draxus) who were able to progress once 3.0 gave them access to 192/198 gear. Sounds an awful lot like "it got easier" ...

Not just that, those level 50 ops have much less 1 shot mech(which was overused in level 55 ones) and there was a big nerf on the characters in the 3.0 patch.

 

Why not? Why should a level 55 ops with level 168-186 tier gear drop provide such difficulty to level 60 players with 190-198 mix? It's not how it works in MMO. If you want challenge, it should be provided with level 60 new ops, not the old ones.

There is a difference between the above statement about "such difficulty" and your earlier one about "make it faceroll"

 

Don't be disingenuous. This isn't a matter of you thinking "the fights are overtuned" and should be adjusted to make the game more fun. This is a matter of you wanting deco / mounts from faceroll-easy operations.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Adjusting difficulty is one thing.

 

Let me remind you, that you specifically asked for "faceroll".

 

"Should have been" is subjective. That's a matter of personal taste, so I'm not going to engage you on it.

 

That's how it works for old content.

 

People run fp/ops to get higher tier gear, so the level 55 HM ops should be hard for ppl with less than 168 gear, quite easy for ppl with 180 tier gears, and a faceroll for level 60 players with 192-198 gears. NIM follows similar way. That's how WOWlike MMO works, otherwise these ops became quite pointless to ppl other than those who can farm them already. Why should ppl spend much time and repair fee for nothing other than some rare decor/mount and garbage gears?

 

I will say that I've seen guilds be completely stuck on a boss (e.g. Draxus) who were able to progress once 3.0 gave them access to 192/198 gear. Sounds an awful lot like "it got easier" ...

 

There is a difference between the above statement about "such difficulty" and your earlier one about "make it faceroll"

 

Don't be disingenuous. This isn't a matter of you thinking "the fights are overtuned" and should be adjusted to make the game more fun. This is a matter of you wanting deco / mounts from faceroll-easy operations.

 

It does make it easier(when did I deny that?) but still not much, and remember these guilds no longer need these gears, they can get much better ones with much less effort. It became easier but pretty much pointless now. I think it should be face-roll because it's OLD content with garbage drops, it's pointless to do other than farming a few mounts/decor. If an ops doesn't drop useful gear for ppl, why shouldn't it be faceroll?

 

Even those 190 blue gears from Ziost quests are better than most of them. Is Ziost story quests hard? NO! Then why should those ops be harder since they drop even lower tier gear?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

Then why should those ops be harder since they drop even lower tier gear?

Because only having two levels of difficulty: "faceroll" and "hardcore" is not as fun as variety.

Because challenging group content can be fun.

Because sleepwalking through content is less fun.

Because "only the latest content is allowed to have any challenge" means fewer choices.

 

Just off the top of my head.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Because only having two levels of difficulty: "faceroll" and "hardcore" is not as fun as variety.

Because challenging group content can be fun.

Because sleepwalking through content is less fun.

Because "only the latest content is allowed to have any challenge" means fewer choices.

 

Just off the top of my head.

 

I'm not saying there are only 2 levels, but when an ops' drop was even lower than you get in easy story quests, then its difficulty should match its drop. That's how WOW alike MMO works.

 

We are in 3.0, challenging content shouldn't be those old level 55 ops, but NEW level 60 ones which drops top tier gears. Low level ones should be easy run as well.

 

Latest? TFB came out on Sep 2012, which is 3 years ago, DF and DP came out more than 2 years ago. Even the latest one, DF and DP NIM came out on June 2014, which was more than 1 year ago and we got a digital xpc which increased the level by 5. Why shouldn't these 2-3 years old content with mostly garbage drop be very easy to players? 2-3 years gap is a lot to a MMO, if we still rely on such old content to make "difficulty" then it means this game's PVE content didn't update well.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Slowpokeking