SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Round 1B: Aurbere vs ShadowMudkip

[cs_zoltan]

Alright, give me 10 minutes to post and finish formatting.

 

There better not be any broken color tags like last time

[ShadowMudkip]

Alright, I found a little time to squeeze in my final post, so don’t expect anything fancy like Aurbere’s.

 

Satele Vs. Malgus

 

Satele being underrated here is just a tad unappreciated. First off, she is the fastest person here by an extremely large margin.

She acts as a cannonball, blasting a hex droid out of a corridor into space:

The corridor blurred. Master Satele preceded him like a cannonball, blowing the hex backward, out of the wreckage and into space.

Source: Fatal Alliance

 

For reference, a the average cannonball can move at 399 MPH, this is over half of the speed of sound (761 mph). There is simply no way Malgus can catch her if she is indeed capable of speeds even a fraction of this. Like I said before, her objective here is not to beat Malgus, but to wait till HK can be defeated.

 

Again, I can’t stress enough that her objective here is not winning, but stalling for time, something that Satele is primed to do in this situation. On two separate occasions, has Satele shown to be able to use an impenetrable force barrier in conjunction with other abilities. Once during the hex droid conflict (used in conjunction with levitation), and once in conjunction with battle meditation during the fight with Revan. The difference between here and their last engagement on Alderaan, is that Satele is not fighting to win, and thus does not need to take unnecessary risks in engagement. If Malgus uses force Maelstrom, Satele can just throw up her own barrier, and neither get anywhere because neither barrier can be penetrated.

 

In regards to to the quote saying she wasn’t the warrior she once was. She was most likely pointing to her lightsaber abilities themselves, which hadn’t been greatly used in 10 years. I find it very hard to believe that her overall power would decrease. That being said, she has proven that she can still fight close to prime, or at prime through her battle against Revan, and the hex droid conflict.

 

That being said, I believe that now is a good time to really look at the Yavin IV feat for Revan. First, Aurbere has given no definitive proof that SOR Revan can use the lightside, nor that he was weakened or otherwise hindered during that battle. If he could have given a different source besides the game mechanics, then I would have conceded the point, but alas, there are none as Revan was operating at peak efficiency during that fight.

We have Revan, who became more powerful by his own admission. To top this, one of his greatest feats (the battle on Yavin IV) was with him sitting on top of an extremely potent DS nexus. Again, since there is no proof that he used the lightside, then it can only be assumed that he was getting nothing less than a massive power boost on that nexus.

 

Among all of this, we have Satele, who was able to, in the presence of that nexus, still cast battle meditation to aid her allies. This by itself shows Satele’s immense force power, being able to use a powerful and difficult light side ability in the presence of a potent DS nexus. To say that she is not on the level of Malgus in terms of force power is ludicrous. She is every bit his equal in this area, perhaps even his superior.

 

 

 

 

Bastila (with Fisto/Koon) vs Revan

 

“Though ideal for meditating large-scale conflicts, battle meditation was also effective when employed for the benefit of one's comrades in small skirmishes, attacks, and duels.”

-Wookipedia

 

This fight is not as one sided as you might believe. In regards to battle meditation being unable to be used, this is utterly false. There are two major circumstances which disprove this. First though, we need to clarify a point. Bastila is the strongest user of battle meditation in the entire star wars mythos. Comparing her to individuals like Worror is foolish. The first scenario is during ROTJ, when Sidious was able to move, use FL on Luke, and engage in conversation all the while boosting an entire fleet! The second, is Satele’s use of it on Yavin. Not only was it used on a DS nexus, thus making it incredibly difficult for her. But she was also able to erect an impenetrable force barrier as well. Using Battle Meditation on such a small scale is childsplay for her. Bastila’s battle meditation has no match.

"Bastila Shan, whose battle meditation skills were peerless."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

"Her Battle Meditation that can turn the tide of any conflict."

―Juhani (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

 

Additionally, one thing I have not brought up yet, is the force bond that Bastila has between herself and Revan. This is the main reason I have Bastila fighting Revan, as her battle meditations negative effects against him will be amplified. Add in the fact that SOR Revan is not completely whole, and the fact that he is not a stable individual, and you find that Revan is not going to be fighting anywhere near maximum efficiency. This, is where my team is able to pull ahead. Bastila’s battle meditation will negatively affect Malgus and Revan, while also boosting every one of my teammates. Revan is doubly affected due to his strong force bond with Bastila, which was powerful enough for her to bring him back from the brink of death.

"Bastila uses the Force to keep Revan alive, establishing a telepathic bond between them."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

 

 

All of a sudden, the gap between our teams closes. With her prior experience, and skills, Bastila with the help of the either Koon or Fisto, can easily match Revan (given the above).

Bastila also has a wealth of force powers that she can use to aid her. Including.

 

Force Stun:http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4420480-5872641477-yDJZW.gif

 

 

Sever Force:"[bastila Shan can] can block another Force-user’s access to the Force."

―Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition Core Rulebook

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4420552-sever.jpg

 

 

 

 

Force Slow:"[bastila Shan can] slow [her] targets as if they are encumbered by an extremely heavy load, making it difficult for them to move."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4420525-slow.jpg

 

 

Like it or not, Bastila is a proficient force user, and she can and will use her force powers against Revan quite liberally.

 

 

Plo Koon (with Bastila) vs. Revan

 

 

Before I delve into this too quickly, let me address his antitoxin mask. This, is really a non issue, due to the fact that it only ever happened once, and in incredibly circumstantial ways. First, Plo Koon was fighting Savage Opress, someone who was unnaturally large due to the nightsister magic used on him. This gives Savage incredible reaching potential, something that no one in this duel can replicate. Second, Savage grabbed his mask while Koon was distracted by an injured clone trooper.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111222381/4441255-4767582592-aprT0.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111222381/4441256-3241593443-nDfo1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111222381/4441256-3241593443-nDfo1.jpg

 

 

As you can see, the chances that Revan (or HK depending on scenario) could remove his mask are close to none, as Revan would have to expose himself to grab for it, and HK is not fast enough to grab it.

 

In regards to his lightsaber ability, Plo Koon has the ability to impress even Darth Maul, which speaks volumes about his lightsaber ability. In fact, Maul even considers him near the level of Windu.

He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill.

―Star Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Plo Koon is more than able to hold his own against Revan with Bastila’s help. He defeated Ventress, while also having a broken arm. This is significant, because Koon’s Form V can be weak against Form II. Also, Form II adherents train themselves against disarmament, yet, Plo Koon managed to disarm Ventress, who is probably on par with Revan concerning their skill in Makashi. Ventress is incredibly powerful, she defeated Grievous on Dathomir, she has held her own against Anakin and Obi-Wan multiple times. She also challenged Windu to a duel, lost, yet forced Windu to use everything he had.

Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File 108

 

Looking back at this, it is clear that if Plo Koon is powerful enough to defeat Ventress by disarming her (which she trained herself against), then it is clear that he is capable of out dueling Revan with Bastila and the battle meditation.

If Bastila and Plo are put on the backfoot, Plo can create a sandstorm through the use of his extensive alter environment abilities to create distance and breathing room. Or, he could freeze the ground at Revan’s feet, tripping, or locking him in place. Bastila could use this distraction to force stun him, and Plo could disarm him.

 

 

Kit Fisto (with Bastila) vs Revan

 

 

An alternate, albeit not as favorable, scenario where Plo Koon fights HK and Fisto is with Bastila. Revan’s best chance, is to stay with his Makashi form, in order to counter Fisto’s form I. However, Makashi decreases in effectiveness with each opponent, so having Bastila against him will cause problems. While it is unknown what forms Bastila uses, the fact that she knew enough to retrain him, and the fact that she was his traveling companion for a considerable amount of time, indicates that she may be well versed in many of the same forms as Revan. During a vision, Bastila is fighting against a dark jedi, utilizing heavy swings and power strikes. This indicates that form V, the Djem So variant, is perhaps a specialization of hers.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111140132/4420448-2865350894-yal7l.gif

 

 

Djem So, being a counter to Makashi, puts Revan into a bind. Should he stay in Form II, he provides a counter to Fisto’s expert swordsmanship, but he leaves himself open to Bastila’s power strikes. Should he use a different form, he takes away the counter to Fisto’s wild form I. Ultimately, he would have to use force abilities to gain any edge at all, but with the constant mental abuse through Bastila’s battle meditation and force bond that amplifies it, he will have great trouble concentrating. Fisto’s sword play is so great, that he is considered one of the greatest swordsman of the entire Jedi order by Obi-Wan, Shaak Ti, and even Mace Windu; all considerable duelists themselves.

 

 

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

 

Revenge of the Sith Novelization

 

Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."

"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."

"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."

 

Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

 

Source: Revenge of the Sith

 

These accolades put Fisto at the very least on the level of Ti and Kenobi in terms of dueling power. He is absolutely no pushover. With Bastila with him, Revan is not going to find an edge against either of them.

 

 

Plo Koon/Kit Fisto vs HK

 

The first thing I want to do is look at HK’s shield. This shield, within a certain proximity, allows HK to be invulnerable against force attacks. Now, I recognize that this is a game mechanic, and I’m alright with that, however, we must apply some logic to this situation. Aurbere has stated that neither Kit nor Plo can get close enough to HK as to get inside the shield, I stated that a force push would allow a window as to where they could blitz to the inside of the shield. Aurbere stated that they couldn't. From a logical perspective, this makes no sense. A force push is simply the manipulation of air, which is why it is effective against even the most powerful of force users, because it bypasses natural force barriers due to being a solid attack (the movement of air). If a force push is unable to make contact due to the barrier, then this implies the barrier is a solid energy barrier, this means that HK can not fire shots from the inside, to the outside, as the barrier would absorb, or block the shot.

 

Either way, both Fisto and Koon are plenty fast enough to make it within the barrier and attack HK. If either were to get inside the barrier, Fisto could use his superior speed, and form I mastery, to disarm HK and destroy him. If Koon were to attack him, he could use his mastery of Form V, Shien variant, and block and return the blaster bolts that HK uses. Either way, this fight ends first, and my character will always come out victorious. HK has a long list of accolades, but nothing against a notable force user of Fisto or Koon’s caliber.

 

 

In the end, the important thing to remember, is that my team is receiving constant buffs from Bastila’s battle meditation, and Aurbere’s (with the exception of HK) is getting hammered by the negative aspects of battle meditation. Further, my team’s coordination is improved through the telepathy of both Satele, Plo Koon, and Bastila’s battle meditation coordination improvements. The place where Aurbere’s team fails, is that he cannot defeat my team fast enough, whereas mine can. In all honesty, SOR Revan is an unreliable pick, due to his unreliable psyche and mind. He is a completely broken individual who will succumb to the mental attacks of battle meditation and the amplification of Bastila’s force bond. Has this been Darth Revan, then it would have been much different.

[Aurbere]

Sel, you'd better close this ASAP. Because I'm bored and I'd be itching to reply after reading it.

 

I really, really want to...

 

Edit: Can I, please?

Edited August 15, 2015 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

OK, I'm just going to correct a few things.

 

1. You discount Revan's use of the light side as game mechanics yet you use Satele's in-game Force Barrier and have no issue arguing HK's shield. It's a double standard on your part.

 

2. Satele didn't use the Barrier and BM at the same time. She was wholly vulnerable while using BM and only used the Barrier after Revan dealt enough damage to her to force her to recover, at which point the team loses BM.

 

3. You compared Bastila to Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious... And you've provided no evidence that she can use BM while moving anyway. We've only ever seen her use it in meditation.

 

That's all I have to say here.

 

Edit: BTW, you contradicted yourself between the Fisto and Koon arguments.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Aurbere

[ShadowMudkip]

OK, I'm just going to correct a few things.

 

 

 

Edit: BTW, you contradicted yourself between the Fisto and Koon arguments.

 

[ShadowMudkip]

Aurbere, whats the CV tourney you are in?

[Aurbere]

Aurbere, whats the CV tourney you are in?

 

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/star-wars-expanded-universe-tournament-full-1701197/?page=1

[Aurbere]

 

"This is significant, because Koon’s Form V can be weak against Form II."

 

"Djem So, being a counter to Makashi, puts Revan into a bind."

 

Also, you used Wookieepedia as a source. You should drop that immediately. In any serious debate that alone is grounds for defeat. Trust me, I've talked to veterans on other forums, they'd tear you a new one for it.

[ShadowMudkip]

"This is significant, because Koon’s Form V can be weak against Form II."

 

"Djem So, being a counter to Makashi, puts Revan into a bind."

 

Also, you used Wookieepedia as a source. You should drop that immediately. In any serious debate that alone is grounds for defeat. Trust me, I've talked to veterans on other forums, they'd tear you a new one for it.

 

Hmm, alright thanks for the advice. The outcome of this match was pretty obvious, I won't pretend to say otherwise.

 

EDIT: I agree with Sel, you should have no problem in that tourney.

Edited August 16, 2015 by ShadowMudkip

[Selenial]

Vote time TBH, I'm sure you guys don't need to see the advice thing again.

 

PS: Aurbere I hated your opener on CV

[Aurbere]

PS: Aurbere I hated your opener on CV

 

You hate everything I do, but you'll get over it when I win.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Aurbere

[cs_zoltan]

Lightsaber combat

 

Malgus. Well here's my problem with him. He has good battle and force accolades, and feats, but not much for lightsaber skill. While I won't say that he doesn't know how to hold a lightsaber, but Malgus lacks any feat to make up for accolades. He's vastly more powerful than anyone he ever faced, so his lightsaber skills were never adequately tested. He pobably used Form V, based on his fighting style, but I'm not convinced that he is suprerior in skill to the other Form V user here, Plo Koon. Give Malgus Plo level of force power, a jedi mentality and a broken arm, and I'm not convinced he could defeat Ventress with skill alone.

Same thing goes for Satele, she sure is a good duelist, but beyond that it's all speculation.

Revan is in a similar position than Malgus, but not quite. He did master several lighsaber form, and his feat against Malak is impressive. But every other feat involves his force supriority again.

In Shadow's team the leftovers are Bastila and Kit. Can Bastila even hold a lightsaber?...Nah, jk. But still, you didn't provide any argument around her dueling prowess. On the other hand you covered Fisto's skill extensively.

 

Egde to Shadow.

 

 

Force abilities

 

Well this is very onesided. Shadow's team isn't known for any meaningful use of the force, beyond the basic. Sure they have some tricks, but I'm not convinced that any of them would actually work.

In contrast Aurbere's team is extremly powerful in the force. Both Revan's and Malgus' superiority to any one or even two of Shadow's combatant was very well argued.

 

Edge to Aurbere.

 

 

Teamwork & Tactics

 

Hmmm, I'm disappointed Shadow that you didn't challenge the obvious, and went after Aurbere's teamwork. Malgus kept Revan a prisoner. SoR Revan wasn't a sith, he only wanted to kill the Emperor. HK was loyal to Revan yet he was forced to fight for Malgus. Etc.

 

No edge in that respect.

 

As for tactics I think Aurbere made a really convincing counter to Shadow's BM.

 

Edge to Aurbere.

 

 

Handling the environment

 

Wait what? There's an arena here?...*Checks OP* Yep there is one. Strange, I didn't even notice.

 

No edge

 

 

Miscellaneous

 

HK

 

Aurbere's arguments involving him were impressive. He covered every possible scenario involving him. If Bastila goes for him, she's dead. If anyone else then Revan & Malgus gains an adequate upperhand. If nobody does...well big mistake

 

Edge to Aurbere.

 

 

Vote

 

First I'd like to say very well done Shadow. You put up a good fight against Aur *********** bere, with an inferior team. My only advice is scenarios

Listing feats and quotes is all nice and good, but those alone won't convince me. Application is just as, if not more, important as existance. For example Satele's Force Stun. Great, she has it. Now how would she use it? How would this further your teams advancement?

 

Anyway I vote Aurbere.

Edited August 16, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[ShadowMudkip]

Going through that CV tourney, I wasn't really impressed by any of the "openers" if you want to call them that, except for yours Aurbere. They were little more than small paragraphs. I hope the rebuttals are far more interesting.

[cs_zoltan]

Going through that CV tourney, I wasn't really impressed by any of the "openers" if you want to call them that, except for yours Aurbere. They were little more than small paragraphs. I hope the rebuttals are far more interesting.

 

If only the sole problem with them would be their length...

 

Good thing you came to the superior forum to learn

[Selenial]

WTB more votes.

[Beniboybling]

So I'm going to have to vote for Aurbere, primarily unfortunately because I felt Shadow chose his matchups poorly, and didn't utilise his team as well as he could have.

 

Bastila vs Revan just isn't a good match, Bastila is good but she's surpassed by Revan in everyway, Satele vs Malgus is also in many ways a foregone conclusion and leaving Plo Koon and Fisto to be thrown in haphazard to fill in the gaps didn't make much sense and didn't make good use of their skills as a pair. I feel instead you should have gone with the following:

 

Satele vs Revan, not winnable on neutral terrain but a good fight, with Bastila's BM she could surely win.

 

Plo Koon & Kit Fisto vs Malgus, Koon and Fisto's familiarity with one another would have made for a good pairing, their combined skill and strength alone is enough to defeat Malgus in lightsaber combat, Bastila's BM would not have only made their victory in a duel a sure thing, but protected them from Malgus' Force based attacks. Bish bash bosh my friend.

 

Bastila should have then been placed in the rear, in meditation, amplifying her team while they defend her. Altogether I feel this is how Bastila should have been used in general, as support. Time and time again BM has shown to demand and be most effective in a deep state of meditation, not in situ. All that would have to be argued that Bastila could defend herself from HK with a shield, and even that she could take him out prior to meditation, leaving her free to support.

 

That said for the approach you took you did an impressive job.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Going through that CV tourney, I wasn't really impressed by any of the "openers" if you want to call them that, except for yours Aurbere. They were little more than small paragraphs. I hope the rebuttals are far more interesting.

 

Well thank you, Mudkip. I've been getting quite a bit of praise on it, so I guess I did good, lol

 

Edit: And keep the votes coming, people!

Edited August 17, 2015 by Aurbere

[cs_zoltan]

Edit: And keep the votes coming, people!

 

Anyone can vote?

[Aurbere]

Anyone can vote?

 

Well why not?

[cs_zoltan]

Well why not?

 

Idk...well I might make an account just so I can vote

[Beniboybling]

Provide a link tbh.

[Aurbere]

Whoa wait. I was referring to this match, guys, LOL

[cs_zoltan]

Whoa wait. I was referring to this match, guys, LOL

 

Well...context

[karadron]

My vote: Inconclusive.

 

While agree with Zoltan in regards to saber and Force abilities. I disagree in regards to Teamwork and Tactics. I feel like Shadow addressed that area more thoroughly than Aurbere and thus I would give him that category. As well I feel like HKs actual affect is still up in the air--but expect that he would prove nothing more than a distraction. The biggest issue was the complete lack of discussion on the arena and its affects--thus why I am not willing to give either of the debaters my complete vote.

 

The arena should be a big part in any dueling debates because it affects what skills can be utilized and which can't. As well as can prove a hindrance for certain team members and allow exploitation of certain weaknesses. Look at Beni and Zoltan's match for excellent debating on environment.

[Beniboybling]

Whoa wait. I was referring to this match, guys, LOL

I said provide a link.