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SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Round 1C: Selenial vs Tunewalker

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tunewalker

tunewalker

Posted
Posted (edited)

The Kyp Durron Controversy.

 

 

I wanted to note that from posts on these forums from other people (Silenceo being one of them.... sorry Silenceo for using you as an example.) I am not the only one that puts Kyp Durron as a High Caliber force wielder. So its not a "blasphemous over blowing" of a character in this regard.

 

 

He is stated to be Luke's best student and proves it multiple times over, but here is one more controversy to add to the list. I believe he has shown the capabilty to do nearly everything he did with Kun's help on his own. The thrashing Corran Feat that he did with Kun's Help he does on his own later with a flick of his wrist sending Corran over his shoulder. His erasing some one's mind he thaught Jaina how to do (go to Star's first match for this one). Where he started and moved the Sun Crusher, he has moved Freighters and several small objects before, showing this is within his abilities. Everything he did with the help of Kun save for the dark tendrils he has done so afterwards with little effort. To me this suggests that Kun was a Guide, this is the reason Gantoris didnt pull some of this with Kun's help, because he didnt have nearly the potential or ability that Kyp did. To me this moment is very much like Luke's near death experience on Dathomir, where he got to see the other side, to see the force in its entirety litterally getting "help" from the other side sky rocketing his abilities.

 

 

Kyp is the best TK specialist of the combatants in this tournament, his black hole thing shows greater magnitude in TK then Starkiller, while some of his in combat displays with precise fast moving objects, including ones up the size of a freighter and the invention of the Shadow bomb technique, as well as medium objects like ancient wheels, trees and stones (which he did while one hand standing... showing that he is capable of doing it with out the use of any of his hands and while exerting immense Control pressure linked it earlier... as a Padawan...) and small precise attacks with a flurry of Nuts and Bolts, he has shown a wide breadth of range of abilities with TK, up to the largest and down to the smallest, there is nothing in this sphere of ability that any of his opponent can throw at him that he cant return in kind.

 

 

In terms of Saber combat skills he has shown a plethora of different skills. Obviously he knows Shii-cho as its the basics of all saber combat, but beyond that he shows some elements of nearly every combat style.

 

Makashi elements

 

Kyp and Ganner followed up the brash offensive, felling their opponents with precise strikes to susceptible spots in the warriors’ armor.

 

He advanced, then darted forward with a quick feinting lunge.

 

The older Jedi shifted his weight to the balls of his feet, gaining balance in preparation for the coming attack.

 

footwork and precision

 

Soresu elements

 

As Luke neared and began throwing probing attacks in quick succession, Kyp deflected them close to his body with equal speed and minimal movement.

 

Solid defense when he wants it

 

Ataru Elements

 

He rolled aside to avoid a possible slashing counter and came up in a crouch.

 

Kyp somersaulted down the stairs, turned, and came up with his lightsaber held high and ready

 

Acrobatic capabilities

 

Niman Elements

 

I Hope I dont have to link all the times he used TK based attacks we have kind of covered those

 

The rest can be several different elements and arent super indicative of some of the others, they could be Shii-cho, they could be Ataru, they could be Djem So, or they could be Juyo... since its highly kinetic what ever it is, some times its sweeping which would suggest the first 3, some times its kind of staccato which is the last one... but for sure he is marked as an EXPERT duelist just like Kyle Katarn, who was known to master all of the NJO's forms, and considering more and more evidence to suggest that contained the 7 classical forms I see no reason to think Kyp hasnt done so as well, given Luke's regard for his abilities and calling him an equal to Kyle.

 

In addition to these powers Kyp has several others.

 

 

First I think his force lightning, though he doesnt use it any more, is highly under rated

 

With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides.

 

Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body.

 

He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him--but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.

 

Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail.

 

For those that think this was ALL Exar Kun, read some of the highlights, the way it is written it highly suggests that Kyp is doing the Lightning and Kun is doing the Dark Tendrills. It is Kyp Durron's might, and Kun's forbidden weapons. But the might is still Kyp's. and Lightning is one of the abilities that are listed as he DID master on his own... but yes he doesnt use it since that time, but that doesnt make him incapable of it. http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4128043

 

These are only SOME of the powers that Kyp has demonstrated. His abilities were unnaturally augmented by Exar Kun. These are the skills that he has mastered on his own

 

AE to kill a small Leviathon

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4127360

 

all of this shows him to be the high caliber force user that Luke claims him to be. The "scary powerful" that Luke claims him to be.

 

 

Also that reminded me, The dark thrown thing with Krayt, is not indicative of power, but of danger. If it was just power then Caedus would have seen Abeloth or himself, but Krayt was the one that posed the real threat, he was the one that would nearly wipe out the Jedi once again, but he had to wait, build his army and bide his time.. he wasnt doing it while Luke or Jaina or Kyp sat upon the thrown of Light, and not with out an army to take out Kol Skywalker, while he sat on it, but yes Krayt still did it, which is why that threat was real, and Krayt is still very powerful, but he is no giant above Kyp that he can win with that alone. He needs to be able to beat an Expert top level Duelist who is also a highly powerful top level TK specialist, and that is no easy thing to do.

Edited by tunewalker
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Selenial

Selenial

Posted
Posted (edited)

*sigh* Looks like this is the second longest post in the tournament, even if only slightly. Still, I suspect I can trounce Aurbere's puny record should I decide to go all out :jawa_evil:

 

Two things to note though, I had to split this into two posts after all. Also, I don't know why the Wyyrlok Section is double spoiler boxed, I can't figure out what's going on and I don't have time to fix it :jawa_redface: I'll have a look later.

 

Darth Krayt vs Kyp Durron

 

 

In terms of general power level, I feel like Kyp is being a tad overrated here. He's impressive, don't get me wrong, but he's not Krayt level. I sincerely and violently object to the use of baseless and unquanitifiable quotes to raise a character as high as possible, so I'm going to ignore the quotes about his force potential. Don't get me wrong, they're impressive, but the fact Kyp's written in prose and thus has more eloquent hype isn't exactly a solid foundation for saying he's Krayt's superior.

 

While yes, Kyp was a candidate for facing Caedus, I think the fact the Jedi didn't send him is telling. What's more, they didn't even choose to send him as support for Jaina. Why? Because he would not have stood a chance against him, even with her support. On the flip side, Caedus feared Krayt's power so much he willingly embraced the Dark Side in an attempt to gain the power to stop him. So I mean, there's that :jawa_evil:

 

Anyway, the breakdown:

 

Lightsaber Abilities:

Krayt is a demon, easily one of the greatest lightsaber duelists of all time. I found your post regarding his abilities, Tunewalker, to be amazingly biased and selective. To suggest Krayt barely increased in skill after his time as a Jedi, really? To say the greatest Sith in the One Sith Empire are the equals of average Jedi Knights? I'm genuinely disappointed, I expected better.

 

Sufficed to say, you missed almost all of Krayt's best feats. He faced off against and defeated 4 imperial Knights, speedblitzing them. Note that Krayt was not in his prime here, he was weakened both physically and in his connection to the force:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4636349/

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4636350

 

Now these were some of the best Imperial Knights out there, and you need to understand what that means. Imperial Knights were equals of the Jedi in their whole, but were far more martially focussed, become better combatants and duelists. They had stronger armor and cortosis weave bracers that could deflect Lightsaber strikes. Not to mention they developed two forms of Lightsaber combat specifically for working as a team with other Imperial Knights. So in short, Krayt blitzed 4 duelists and force users who were stronger than Jedi with much better cohesion. Sources below:

 

"The Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous Force-users in the galaxy. Skilled in combat, they train under the tutelage of their Imperial masters, learning all they need to know to defend Emperor Roan Fel against all those who would harm him. The Imperial Knights are skilled with both the lightsaber and with the Force, and make extensive use of combat armor, including their special cortosis gauntlets designed to stop lightsaber attacks. From the start of their training until they reach knighthood, the Imperial Knights learn how to use the Force to transform themselves into living weapons and shields."

The Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

"Though their numbers are small, the Imperial Knights are fully trained Force-users, with all the skills and abilities of a Jedi."

Star Wars: Legacy #0.5

 

"Despite opinions to the contrary, Imperial Knights are every bit as capable in the use of the Force as their Jedi counterparts, though their training has considerably more martial focus."

Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

"Skilled in the art of lightsaber combat, the Imperial Knights use many of the same combat training techniques as the Jedi, and have learned to fight in many of the same lightsaber dueling styles. However, the Imperial Knights are also masters of two unique lightsaber combat forms that place greater emphasis on teamwork than one's individual prowess. The more aggressive style, known as praetoria vonil,focuses on moving quickly and striking hard. The more defensive style, known as praetoria ishu, emphasizes protecting one's allies to allow them to find openings in an opponent's defences."

Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

This alone is far greater than anything Kyp Durron has ever done as a duelist. Though if you need more, Krayt was called a Master duelist during time as a jedi, and became more experienced and skilled afterwards.

 

"A master duelist, Hett also fashioned a bisected gaffi stick for Hoar, tutoring him to fight with two weapons simultaneously."

 

"I completed training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I've killed thousands of opponents since then."

 

"Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era."

 

Krayt's also stronger, able to lift Cade Skywalker off the ground, choking him with one arm. He also physically dominated Celeste Morne and Darth Wyyrlok III.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4636106

 

And he's a master of unarmed combat, also teaching Hoar to mastery of Teras Kasi:

 

Not long after his vision, Hoar’s Force-sensitivity was discovered by his tribal leader, A’Sharad Hett. A Tusken-raised human, who’d left to join the Jedi and become one of the Order’s masters, Hett had returned embittered after narrowly escaping Emperor Palpatine’s Order 66. Hett began cultivating Hoar as his successor, teaching him how to speak rudimentary Galactic Standard, and how to channel his aggression in a Force-based martial art called Teras Kasi. A master duelist, Hett also fashioned a bisected gaffi stick for Hoar, tutoring him to fight with two weapons simultaneously. Hoar proved an apt protege, and while Hett was clearly the clan chieftain, young Raiders idolized Hoar.

starwars.com

 

I'd also like to call into question the idea that Kyp Durron's quote from Luke is actually a feat, worthy of placing him with Krayt. I feel like you've been outrageously selective Tunewalker, selecting a tiny segment of the fight and not the rest.

 

Luke placed Gaalan on the level of Kyp, yes. He also effortlessly defeated him:

 

But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh.

 

Luke smiled at the man.

 

Krayt really isn't far off Luke as a duelist, if Luke can effortlessly defeat someone he thinks is Kyp level, Krayt wouldn't exactly have an easy time of it. To suggest Krayt is inferior to such a creature is ridiculous.

 

Force Powers

 

Surprisingly, I actually agree with Tunewalker here. Krayt is said to be a superior force user to all of his subordinates. This includes Darth Wredd who crashed a satellite dish with Telekinesis, destroying an army of Sith with it. This in itself is actually pretty close to the dovin basal feat from Kyp Durron, and Krayt is said to “Far Surpass” Darth Wredd in Telekinesis.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4605628

Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.

 

In terms of Telekinesis, you’re right. Both can throw around anything they want in this hangar. I guess the defining factor is how easily they can accomplish it, and I feel like Krayt would have a much easier time of sending around numerous TIE fighters or crates (no pun intended) around.

 

 

Another defining factor is of course, Sith Lightning. Darth Krayt has shown unrivalled mastery in the finer arts of Force Lightning, encasing Darth Talon in lightning while specifically not harming her. He also used Force Lightning to kill a dozen rakghouls.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4636478

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4636482/

 

It is however just as important to look at the feats of Krayt’s subordinates, as his Lightning is said to far surpass any of theirs. I think the most important case is that of Darth Wyyrlok III. His lightning was enough to shatter two stone pillars.

 

I think it needs to be noted that Darth Tyranus’ lightning failed to shatter stone in Attack of the Clones, yet Wyyrlok’s manages to obliterate two columns. Krayt not only can far surpass this lightning, but has the ability to deflect it effortlessly.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4636597

 

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Kyp Durron deflect firepower of this magnitude. Krayt is a more powerful natural force wielder than Kyp, and can let loose copious amounts of Force Lightning. If it strikes Kyp while he is unguarded by his blade, like Krayt did against Cade Skywalker here, sufficed to say Kyp will go down. On the other hand, if it strikes Kyp while his guard is up and he’s forced to deflect it by hand, it will require immense amounts of effort, and leave him open to attack by Wyyrlok III or Talon. Either of which are perfectly intuned with Krayt, and both of which could afford to break their assault momentarily to end Kyp’s life.

 

 

I guess we also need to remember the fact that Krayt is nigh unkillable, thanks to his Dark Transfer. Your team can win by knocking him out, but that won’t happen unless Talon and Wyyrlok are also dead, a feat that will be difficult to accomplish while Krayt is alive. For his other force powers however, he knows Alter Environment, Tutaminis, Force Illusions and more:

 

“Thunder from a storm outside vibrated the walls of the tower. Rain thumped against the windows. Lightning traced a jagged seam the length of the night sky, the flash casting the soaring tombs and spires of Korriban in silhouette.

Staring out at the storm through the large transparisteel window, Wyyrlok wondered if the Master controlled the weather on Korriban, even as he journeyed in dreams.”

 

“Darth Krayt begins placing himself in stasis, issuing his orders telepathically while artificially extending his lifespan with a combination of healing trances and Yuuzhan Vong implants.”

 

“Not for the first time, he wondered how much of recent events the Master had foreseen, how far into the future the Master's foresight extended. It was as though the Master had a recorder on the eye of fate, and through it saw and anticipated events like no one else.

Despite himself, Wyyrlok felt awed by the Master's power.”

 

Should Krayt get wounded, he can heal it. Should the jedi hatch a plan, he will foresee it. As HK-47 explains, hatching a plan against a Force User will generally result in it failing. Hatching one against Krayt will result in your painful and excruciating demise.

 

Finally, Krayt will have far better team cohesion than Kyp Durron will, surprisingly. Talon and Wyyrlok’s intervention will afford him numerous advantages, and he doesn’t even need to kill Kyp, just create an opening. While the two most powerful titans on each team usually last the longest, the gap between Krayt and Kyp is enough that Kyp will be the first to fall.

 

 

Wyyrlok vs K'kruhk

 

 

Lightsaber Skill:

 

Tune’s right, K’kruhk is primarily a Lightsaber duelist. I guess it’s even more of a shame then that he’s utterly outclassed in this segment of the fight as well as in the force. Wyyrlok III excelled in Lightsaber combat every bit as much as he did in the force, regardless of his specialization. Not only is Wyyrlok thoroughly being undervalued here, given his performance against one of the greatest duelists of all time (Krayt) but K’kruhk is being massively overblown. Not only do I think his performance against Grievous is being hugely, hugely taken out of context and overrated, but I think his fight against Vos is the same.

 

K’kruhk took Vos on long before Vos’ prime, and it should be noted that Legends Vos isn’t as powerful as Canon Vos either. Even then, he never actually engaged Vos in a duel of skill, merely overpowering Vos with his size. While yes, this was impressive, Vos wasn’t striking to kill and wasn’t pushing for a duel. K’kruhk was fighting Vos as if Vos was Ventress, believing him to have fallen. Vos was trying not to harm K’kruhk while maintaining his cover. Indeed, once Vos had forced K’kruhk off him, a duel could have played out, but it didn’t, Vos fled. That’s not a sign that Vos was inferior, as people attempt to say. It’s merely a sign that Vos did not want to engage or kill K’kruhk. Furthermore, this was before Vos’ training at the hands of the Sith, and before a dramatic increase in abilities that we saw him go through. Overall, not a feat for K’kruhk that places him on Wyyrlok III’s level, or even close.

 

Second, his fight against Grievous is being overstated. Tunewalker is attempted to convince you all that the fact Grievous used Strength and Skill to best the others, but bested K’kruhk by surprise, means K’kruhk is stronger and more skilled than the others Grievous fought…. Yes I know, I’m as dumbfounded as you are, but I guess I should point out the flaws in this anyway.

 

Grievous dispatched K’kruhk in a matter of seconds. He took K’kruhk out much faster than Shaak Ti or Ki Adi Mundi. Grievous used surprise as a means to an end against K’kruhk because it was faster than dispatching him any other way. This doesn’t mean Grievous could not have dispatched him in other methods. K’kruhk lasted 4 seconds against Grievous, might I add. In fact, in all likelihood, the reason Grievous didn’t use trickery against Shaak Ti or Mundi isn’t because they were inferior to K’kruhk and didn’t need it, but because they would be prepared or would not be phased by it. Shaak Ti being one of the most cunning and tricky Jedi alive, and Mundi’s enhanced sense and intelligence allowing him to adapt fast enough.

 

I don’t possibly see how someone can seriously make an argument that K’kruhk is better than Vos, Mundi, or Ti.

 

Wyyrlok on the other hand… While Wyyrlok’s hype mainly comes from a singular duel, it’s impressive enough to warrant an immense talent with the blade. He competed with Krayt, one of the greatest duelists of all time. While the majority of the duel takes place “off screen”, it’s important to notice and realise that despite how bloodlusted, furious, and striking to kill Krayt was, he never once landed a hit on Wyyrlok. This was despite Wyyrlok III only wielding a single blade

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4577225

 

This is an immensely impressive feat, fitting with his stature in the Sith Empire as second only to Krayt in every field of the Dark Side. His role as a scholar did not by any means diminish his ability as a duelist, nor should it.

 

Krayt is pretty indisputably on the level of Anakin or Dooku as a duelist, with comparable speed and greater strength. For Wyyrlok III to hold out against Krayt, without taking a single hit, he’d require defensive abilities on the level of Obi Wan Kenobi or Darth Zannah. K’kruhk will not penetrate this defense, will not overpower him, or come close. If he can’t do this, Wyyrlok is free to let loose his rage with the Force, something K’kruhk will not be able to cope with.

Force Powers:

 

I think Tune’s overblowing his character again here. That seems to be a recurring theme if I’m being totally honest. The aspects K’kruhk performs well in, in control, are not power hungry spheres. Besides, his natural physique already lends itself to strong strikes, not exactly requiring the amount of effort that other species might to perform huge strength feats.

 

This isn’t me lowballing his strength or speed, merely saying they’re not anywhere near an indication of similar power levels in the force, as Tune’s suggesting.

 

In terms of control, Wyyrlok’s feats are scarce. We do however know that he’s second only to Krayt in raw dark side power, which would indicate a greater strength or speed than other talented Sith such as Darth’s Talon, Nihl, Stryfe and more. Though I’m not going to get into power scaling in this section, as it seems a tad more implausible than other areas. All we really need is to look at his fight with Krayt. Wyyrlok was not overpowered in strength, speed or agility by any large margins. Krayt showed himself to be superior but not by a huge amount, and certainly not by any amount that tipped the fight into a stomp in his favor. Because of this, I think it’s safe to say Wyyrlok’s force enhanced strength and speed were reputable.

 

In terms of alter, Wyyrlok’s got K’kruhk beaten through and through. It’s also how he’s going to win this battle, handily.

 

Wyyrlok’s Sith Lightning is second only to Darth Krayt in power, but that is by no means a bad showing on his part. As I have mentioned before, Wyyrlok’s lightning destroyed two stone columns, shattering them and sending them scattered. This is something that Dooku failed to achieve, it is also something Darth Thanaton on one of the greatest Dark Side Nexuses in the galaxy also failed to achieve. Wyyrlok’s Lightning is intensely powerful.

 

It also, perhaps more impressively, destroyed Darth Krayt’s fabled armor.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4577218

 

This armor was capable of deflecting blaster bolts and indirect Lightsaber strikes, yet Wyyrlok’s lightning eviscerated it.

 

Telepathy may also be a route Wyyrlok could explore:

 

"Darth Wyyrlok believes that it is willpower that gives the sith their strength. By sheer force of will, a Sith can achieve almost anything, and Darth Wyyrlok displays this in everything he does. He is a master of illusions, capable of using the Force to trick his enemies’ minds into seeing things that are not there. In fact, so powerful are Darth Wyyrlok’s mind tricks that he manages to convince nearly a dozen lightsaber-wielding Dark Side Cultists on prakith that they should fight and kill one another, proving once again that the sith are masters of bending the galaxy to their will."

 

The best part about the above feat? Darth Wyyrlok was confirmed to only use an “iota” of his Force Powers to accomplish this feat. Imagine what he could do while fully focussed on a single mind.

 

In fact you don’t have to. Darth Andeddu was a skilled telepath and skilled at creating illusions, yet Wyyrlok tore him apart in a duel of the mind.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4577195

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4577196/

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4577197/

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4577198

 

In terms of tutaminis, Wyyrlok can deflect Sith Lightning:

 

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4577189

Which was immensely difficult even for the most powerful Jedi Masters:

 

“Called Sith lightning, these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.”

 

Edge in Force Power? Wyyrlok decisively.

Edge in saber skill? Wyyrlok.

Edge in teamwork and cohesion? Wyyrlok, though this post is en route atm.

 

Wyyrlok’s defensive skill will easily keep K’kruhk at bay, keeping him away long enough to take advantage of any opening that K’kruhk gives him. As soon as one is available, Wyyrlok will unleash devastating force powers, taking K’kruhk out of the fight with ease.

 

 

 

Darth Talon vs Leia Organa Solo:

 

 

 

Talon vs Leia is probably going to be the most controversial part of this battle, I think. Not between us of course, but between the people reading this. I feel like a lot of people have a preconceived bias towards Leia one way or another. Some underrate her, thinking she’s an average Jedi. Others overrate her, assuming her to be Luke’s equal in actualised force power. Both are equally wrong.

 

I do however feel confident in saying that she will not be able to defeat Talon, and will be hard pressed to survive against her given Krayt and Wyyrlok’s presence in the battle.

 

As I have already said numerous times, Krayt and Wyyrlok are so above their opponents that they can indeed afford to blast force powers or send objects flying to other combatants. I even believe Wyyrlok and Krayt would both be capable of holding off two members of Tunewalker’s team if need be, so imagine how I feel their 1v1 battles would go. If either of them attack Leia, she’s a gonner.

 

Leia vs Talon is going to be an immensely close fight, though obviously you can tell which way I’d lean. Leia’s faced adversaries like Talon before, but watered down and weaker versions. Talon is a ferocious, intensely loyal, brilliantly violent and aggressive fighter. She overcame the singular weakness of Ataru in that she could face multiple high level combatants with ease, but was also incredibly skilled in single combat, as shown during her fight against Darth Nihl.

Y’all need more respect for Talon...

 

Lightsaber Abilities:

 

In a Lightsaber duel, Leia’s pretty outclassed. She’s strong, Talon’s stronger. I think Talon is perhaps one of the most underrated Sith of all time, so I’m going to work my *** off trying to prove Talon wins this.

 

"Darth Talon grows up on Korriban, where she is taught how to use the Force and the art of lightsaber combat, and conditioned to be in top physical condition. Her training is harsh, as all Sith training is, yet she manages to survive and flourish."

--Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

"The Twi'lek Sith Lord is fast, agile and has a diverse array of skills that makes her one of the most deadly combatants around."

--Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

"Despite her relative inexperience, Darth Talon is still one of the most formidable lightsaber duelists in the Sith Order."

--Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

It’s worth noting, in my opinion, that this “Relative Inexperience” Talon is accredited with is gone by the time we reach the Talon I’m debating with. She’s fought countless Jedi, and even Sith, by her end.

Talon was a skilled enough duelist and powerful enough Sith that she was chosen to become the Hand of Krayt, one of two Hands. His personal assassin and bodyguard, she was deemed to be more powerful and skilled than any other Sith in the One Sith Empire. If Hands were killed by another Sith, the new Sith took their place. It was a position sought after by all the Sith, so for Talon to hold such a position is an impressive feat indeed.

 

"With her master dead by her hands, Darth Talon becomes Darth Krayt's Hand, a special agent for the Emperor and the counterpart to Darth Nihl."

--Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

"A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously."

--Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

Talon handily defeated Elke Vetter. Vetter was an Imperial Knight assigned to protect the princess, Marasiah Fel. She was daughter of the Emperor and heir to the throne, she would have been guarded by only the most elite of the Imperial Knight. Yet Talon took Vetter down effortlessly, and Krayt had no doubt she would.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4574269-firstmission3.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4574270-firstmission4.png

 

To remind you of how skilled the Imperial Guard are:

 

“The Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous Force-users in the galaxy. Skilled in combat, they train under the tutelage of their Imperial masters, learning all they need to know to defend Emperor Roan Fel against all those who would harm him. The Imperial Knights are skilled with both the lightsaber and with the Force, and make extensive use of combat armor, including their special cortosis gauntlets designed to stop lightsaber attacks. From the start of their training until they reach knighthood, the Imperial Knights learn how to use the Force to transform themselves into living weapons and shields."

The Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

"Though their numbers are small, the Imperial Knights are fully trained Force-users, with all the skills and abilities of a Jedi."

Star Wars: Legacy #0.5

 

"Despite opinions to the contrary, Imperial Knights are every bit as capable in the use of the Force as their Jedi counterparts, though their training has considerably more martial focus."

Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

"Skilled in the art of lightsaber combat, the Imperial Knights use many of the same combat training techniques as the Jedi, and have learned to fight in many of the same lightsaber dueling styles. However, the Imperial Knights are also masters of two unique lightsaber combat forms that place greater emphasis on teamwork than one's individual prowess. The more aggressive style, known as praetoria vonil,focuses on moving quickly and striking hard. The more defensive style, known as praetoria ishu, emphasizes protecting one's allies to allow them to find openings in an opponent's defences."

Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

Blitzing one of them is incredibly impressive, but there’s no need to worry if that doesn’t convince you of her superiority. Talon has an extensive array of feats…

 

She fought Shado Vao and Wolf Sazen at the same time:

 

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These are both talented Jedi and capable combatants. In addition to this, Talon as an Ataru user should not be capable of taking on numerous Lightsaber wielding opponents at the same time. It is the weakness of her Lightsaber Style, yet she overcame this weakness, showing an immensely high level of mastery. Here’s some brief explanation on how good the two combatants that she faced are:

Shado Vao (before facing or fighting with Cade/Talon/Kol/Sazen) has yet to find his equal with a blade:

 

"Kol Skywalker's former padawan, Shado has honed his martial skills and has yet to find his equal with a lightsaber."

--Star Wars: Legacy #0.5

 

The next quote is interesting. Shado Vao and Wolf Sazen were ambushed by numerous Sith Assassins over the course of their attempts to flee the Empire after the Massacre at Ossus. They would be adept at fighting together, yet Talon took them both:

 

“Years later, he joins Master Sazen in a search for Sazen's former padawan, and Shado's childhood friend, Cade Skywalker. Ensuing adventures and skirmishes with the Sith give Shado Vao many opportunities to display his prowess with the double-bladed lightsaber.”

-Legacy Era Campaign Guide

 

He faced down Darth Maladi, (deflecting her lightning but not Talon’s?), a Sith Trooper (said to be above normal Sith), fought off an army of Sith while outnumbered. It was thought that if he recieved the training of an Imperial Knight he’d become the strongest of them all. Wolf Sazen is every bit as skilled as Shado, if not more so. Talon taking them both on is an immense showing.

 

She also took on Shado while paired with Antares Draco. Draco was the single strongest Imperial Knight of the war, an immensely powerful Force User and skilled duelist. To take him and Shado on at the same time is a great feat. I won’t bother actually posting all the links to this fight though, for fear of posting too many for people to bother reading, but you can find the scans on her Respect Thread.

 

She fought evenly with Darth Nihl who was fighting to kill, believing her to have betrayed Darth Krayt. The majority of the duel happened “Off Screen” but we know it lasted a considerable amount of time. Talon even managed to kill Nihl’s Tu’kata during the duel, a beast known for its ferocity, intelligence and hunting abilities:

"Evil and frighteningly intelligent curs spawned from the depths of an otherworldly hell guard the tombs of the Sith necropolis world of Korriban. In reward for their faithful service, the beasts were taken to sites infused with the dark side, where they mutated into relentless and indefatigable Sith hounds. Exar Kun was especially fond of the creatures and personally brought them to the Massassi temples of Yavin 4.

The ancient Sith Lords alchemically altered the already brutal canines of their world, adding horns, increasing their size, and doubling their brain mass. Some have hypothesized that if Sith hounds had the physical capability and the inclination, they could even speak sentient languages. Sith hounds are unswervingly loyal to darksiders, to whom their senses are especially attuned. They were left on Korriban because the ancient Dark Lords of the Sith wanted trustworthy guardians to protect their remains. A Sith hound's most notable feature is the remarkable intelligence evident behind its yellow eyes.

Sith hounds are one of the most unpredictable "animal" enemies in the galaxy. Sometimes they attack as soon as they feel threatened. More often they sit patiently, waiting for an opening in their opponent's defenses. This is especially true if they believe a foe does not realize their true nature. Packs of Sith hounds can execute complicated hunting and attack maneuvers, guided by their enhanced intelligence and canine ancestry. Never underestimate them."

--The Dark Side Sourcebook

 

She also faced Cade Skywalker in single combat, failing only due to his advantage in the Force.

 

Force Abilities:

Talon’s force abilities supposedly are balanced with her skills with a Lightsaber, indicating she’s every bit as powerful as she is skilled:

"Crimson skinned, fully tattooed, and seething with hatred for Jedi, Twi'lek Sith Darth Talon's passion and unwavering devotion to Krayt are balanced by her mastery over the Force and her prowess with a lightsaber."

-Star Wars Insider 88

 

Talon is capable of draining Knowledge from an opponent, while simultaneously using force wound on them;

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Talon can disarm Cade Skywalker, Jariah Syn and Deliah Blue with the force. An impressive display given how powerful Cade is.

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And has shown herself immensely proficient with Force Push:

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Note that she TK’d Shado enough to knock him out for a short time.

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And she’s talented with Telekinesis in general, pulverizing the stone which Cade Skywalker stood on:

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In terms of Force Lightning, Talon has finished off Elke Vetter with it:

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More impressively she took down Wolf Sazen with it: (Wolf was more durable than most due to his impressive resistance displays and his species, Zabrack were naturally durable) He was also going to die from the blast if not for Marasiah Fel's intervention.

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She can also seep through the information in the mind of another, learning all she needed to know about Princess Marasiah Fel:

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She can use beast control in combat:

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And can conceal her presence, actually convincing others that she is wounded and near death. If she employs this strategy against Leia, Leia could let her guard down, dismissing Talon to face another opponent and be struck down in turn:

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As Leia is not one to kill a harmless opponent, if she thinks Talon is on her Death Bed, she will not finish her in cold blood.

 

For an extensive period of time, Talon is able to evade the highly acute sense of Darth Nihl, who was also the greatest hunter and tracker of his species, the Nagai. It’s for this reason I doubt Leia will fare any better.

Talon’s force barriers are impressive. She has shown the ability to use a Protection Bubble to dissipate the energy of a ship’s engines, saving herself and even her speeder:

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Finally, her force Valor is impressive as she has shown incredible levels of durability. She survived being Force Pushed down a huge drop:

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Was stabbed in the stomach, and survived due to a healing trance:

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Had her head slammed into the ground so hard she broke rock, while sustaining no heavy injuries herself.

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Leia can’t beat her in a duel, and cannot dish out the firepower necessary to actually take Talon down. This is another battle that is handily in my team’s favor.

 

Streen

 

 

Ok so the next thing I wish to discuss is Streen. So far I have not addressed Streen at all, though I’ve hinted at my plans to deal with him. All of my characters have a decisive edge in their duels, and they will win their fights. This changes if you introduce Streen into any of them, Krayt would just about edge his fight, Wyyrlok would be pretty even, and Talon would move to hold off both Jedi instead of attempting to kill them, as she’s done numerous times before. Her defence is enough that she would survive against them.

 

I feel I’ve conveyed a significant enough advantage in regards to Lightsaber dueling in each segment to not even bother putting much effort into why Streen wouldn’t make a difference in that regard. I think it’s hugely important for you all to realise that there is not a single accolade or feat dictating Streen’s abilities as a duelist. It’s clear he’s more of a force user than a duelist, which isn’t a bad thing usually. However in this case, Streen’s fighting some of the greatest Sith in history who happen to have phenomenal cohesion with each other. I think it’s quite reminiscent of Dooku’s fight with Kenobi and Tiplee. Kenobi vs Dooku has been shown in the new canon to be a good fight, when it comes to singular dueling. However Tiplee when facing him couldn’t use Kenobi as a shield to survive, Dooku easily killed her even though Kenobi was a good fight. It’s because lesser individuals can’t be added on to stronger force users in a fight against stronger force users in a linear fashion. If we say Krayt is a “100” point combatant, Streen’s a “40” and Kyp’s an “80”, that doesn’t mean the team against Krayt are a 120 and therefore win. There is still a “60 point” gap between Krayt and Streen that means even the slightest falter by Kyp results in the death of Streen. Since I’ve already established that Krayt will not be hard pressed by Kyp and forced onto the defensive, Krayt will be able to make his own opening to execute Streen.

 

Wyyrlok and Talon would be capable of the same to lesser extents. Either way, Streen as a duelist wouldn’t end up tipping either of their fights into a defeat. Only Talon would struggle to face off against 2 combatants, but she would not be brought down before Wyyrlok or Krayt finish their opponents due to her superior Dueling ability and phenomenal endurance. Not to mention her incredible power in the force.

 

So that’s all well and good in regards to dueling, but what of Streen’s force usage? I’m sad to report that Tunewalker has decieved you. He’s taken Streen’s only valid feat and pulled it right out of context, massively. What he elected to completely ignore when posting his Streen “trump card” was that Streen performed those feats while actively controlled and amplified by the Spirit of Exar Kun. The only other time Streen has manipulated the air was by carrying the weightless, shattered spirit of Kun out of a temple… A temple which was a Force Nexus, I might add. I think it’s careless and incorrect to assume that Streen can do here what he’s only ever done while amplified by a Spirit or one of the Galaxies greatest Nexus’s. Furthermore, his abilities in Alter Environment would harm his team as much as his enemies, it wasn’t TK, it was Alter Environment. And he could not stop his team members being dragged into the storm. Even if he manages this feat, it’s not an automatic win. Suddenly everything in the hangar becomes harder to move with Telekinesis, favouring the team that has stronger TK; Mine. Lightning also becomes a huge issue as his team won’t be able to properly defend themselves from the intricate mastery and raw power of Krayt and Wyyrlok, or the finesse and delicate skills of Talon.

 

Adding to this even more, Leia and Luke would not willingly attack Streen while he was channeling this storm against them. They did not wish to wound or kill a Jedi who was taken under the influence of Exar Kun. Krayt, Wyyrlok and Talon won’t hold back, they’ll kill him if he tries to channel this attack against them. It even takes time to channel, and since Kyp won’t press Krayt enough, Leia won’t press Talon enough, and K’kruhk sure as hell won’t press Wyyrlok enough, there’s no way Streen’s getting his abilities off without being fried to a crisp. Sorry Tune, bit of a lackluster “trump card” right there.

 

Edited by Selenial
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Selenial

Selenial

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Posted (edited)

Teamwork, Synergy, and use of the Environment

 

 

“You address Darth Krayt, Lord of the Sith, Emperor of the Galaxy. Respect his power and beware mine!”

 

Now for Teamwork and Synergy. I’ll admit that the Jedi will work well together, but that’s all. They’ll work “well” together like any Jedi would work well together. They won’t be perfectly synergised and a brilliantly efficient unit. Unfortunately for them, Krayt, Talon and Wyyrlok will be. Talon was devoutly loyal to Krayt, and could communicate with him telepathically. Wyyrlok was devoutly loyal to Krayt’s vision, he believed the strongest Sith should rule, and always thought (rightly so) that Krayt was his superior. He eventually ended Krayt’s life, yes, because Krayt was soon to die from the infections from the Vong that were slowly bringing him down. If Krayt died, the One Sith Empire would break apart due to infighting, Wyyrlok needed a concrete way to secure the Empire’s survival.

Here that’s not an issue. Here it’s Reborn Krayt, who Wyyrlok himself conceded is more powerful. Krayt even seemed to forgive Wyyrlok at the end, understanding why he did it. So sufficed to say, Wyyrlok won’t be leaving anyone for dead here just because he thinks he can. He wants the strongest Sith to rule, and now that Krayt’s in his prime, that’s undoubtedly Krayt. There will be the unwavering loyalty we saw in the past from Wyyrlok, because that’s who Wyyrlok is as a Sith. He was fiercely loyal to both his master and his cause, he was simply forced to pick between one.

That aside, my team can secure the teamwork and synergy department in numerous ways. Firstly, the Sith Order of their time was used to fighting together. They were akin to Jedi in this respect, they lacked the infighting of most empires due to their unification under Krayt, it’ll be no different here. They were actually described as being a more cohesive unit than the Jedi were. Rightly so, too, as they were forced to fight Imperial Knights who had learned and fought together, even developing styles to augment each other.

Talon, Wyyrlok and Krayt have all shown the ability to break through synergising Duo’s or teams as well. When Talon faced Sazen and Shado, she faced two combatants intricately aware of each others skills and weaknesses. When Krayt faced the four Imperial Knight Masters, he fought through a single cohesive unit who all utilized teamwork based fighting styles. Wyyrlok faced a team of Dark Adepts on Prakith who he destroyed with Telepathy as well.

Krayt can commune with either of these Sith telepathically:

 

“But my mind remained open to my closest disciples. The first Darth Wyyrlok became the instrument of my will”

 

Darth Krayt begins placing himself in stasis, issuing his orders telepathically while artificially extending his lifespan with a combination of healing trances and Yuuzhan Vong implants.

--Legacy Campaign Guide

[Darth Wyyrlok III] often felt that the Master could read his mind directly.

—Riptide

 

Darth Krayt telepathically communicates with Luke Skywalker without the latter's consent:

I can. It was a voice that Luke felt rather than heard, a darkness that pulled at him from behind. And I will.

—Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

 

“I remember the faithful one, Darth Talon. Near enough to hear the thoughts I projected into her mind”

“Darth Talon is faithful. Darth Talon is obedient. Darth Talon heard my words when I whispered them in her mind and obeyed my command.”

 

Krayt will use this ability to convey his tactics to his team, allowing them to be far more effective than the Jedi unit. He is also a masterful Tactician after a century of warfare:

 

A cunning tactician with a deep knowledge of the art of warfare, Krayt has abolished the disastrous Rule of Two and supplanted it with the Rule of One.

—Star Wars Insider #88

 

The Environment actually favors my team, I feel. The large open spaces allow Talon to utilize her Ataru to maximum efficiency. It allows Wyyrlok to gain huge distances between him and his opponent, and it allows Krayt to just be a massive battlefield bully without harming his team. In terms of the fighters that both teams have access to throwing.

Talon has survived being hit with a shuttle with no signs of injury at all. It would also be pretty intensely difficult for anyone to actually hit her. Furthermore, she can throw anything back. As can Krayt and Wyyrlok.

 

Krayt and Wyyrlok are also adept at throwing numerous smaller and heavier objects around. Wyyrlok threw a tonne of rock at Krayt, and Krayt was able to throw it back. Therefore any munitions stockpiles in the area can be sent towards their enemies and likely detonated with Force Lightning. If Tune’s team decide to do the same, Wyyrlok and Krayt are capable of protection barriers. Wyyrlok’s has shrugged off tonne’s of rock before. Talon can even do the same, having used her barrier against intense heat and bursts of flame.

There really isn’t anything else in this environment worth noting, every available factor simply seems to benefit my team….

 

TIE Fighters? My team can throw them better and survive them better.

 

Munitions? Same as above

 

The space also favors Wyyrlok’s sorcery, Krayt’s offensive powers and dueling and Talon’s Ataru. Game set and match to my team with the environmental edge.

 

 

How I see the fight running down (Mini Scenario):

Krayt faces off against Kyp while Wyyrlok takes on K’kruhk. These two draw the fight close to each other, Krayt’s Jar’Kai allows him to fence both of the combatants at the same time, holding them at bay with his lightsaber abilities. During this time, Wyyrlok is able to freely blast them with Lightning, pelt them with rubble or assault their minds with his deadly illusions. If Kyp tries to fall back to abuse his force powers, Krayt either executes K’kruhk with ease or simply pursues Kyp and forces him on the back foot.

 

Talon’s been hiding her strength in the force, meaning Leia and Streen believe her a target they can take out of the equation quickly and then go to help their Jedi counterparts who are on the losing end of their 2v2. Talon however surprises them with an immense mastery of the force and deadly abilities with a Lightsaber, holding them off handily. Every time Leia uses the 2v1 to press an advantage, Talon presses into Streen with force pushes or Lightning, sending him back like she did against Shado Vao and Wolf Sazen.

 

The first to fall is K’kruhk, he simply cannot stand in the wake of opponents like Krayt and Wyyrlok. From there, I see two scenarios.

 

1) In an effort to save her friend, and valuing the trusted Kyp above Streen who she’s weary of ever since the Kun attack, Leia breaks off from the Talon battle and assaults Wyyrlok. Streen without support falls to Talon’s blade, allowing her to team up with Wyyrlok to take down Leia. She would naturally fall to Krayt’s side, but his battle instincts and tactics tell her (telepathically) to assault Leia instead. Leia cannot stand against a duo of that magnitude and falls, Kyp joining her Simultaneously as his desperate attempts to hold off Krayt fail.

 

2) Leia continues her fight with Streen against Talon, hoping to end her life and make it a 3v2. Wyyrlok instead of joining Krayt, telepathically assaults Streen, filling his mind with illusions and forcing him against Leia. She is caught off guard by the betrayal, and dies by Streen’s own blade as Talon brings her down with the force. Wyyrlok allows Talon to destroy Streen’s body and the 3 of them obliterate Kyp with ease.

Edited by Selenial
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Aurbere

Aurbere

Posted
Posted

Sel asked me to remark on any formatting errors, so here:

 

Should Krayt get wounded, he can heal it. Should the jedi hatch a plan, he will foresee it. As HK-47 explains, hatching a plan against a Force User will generally result in it failing. Hatching one against Krayt will result in your painful and excruciating demise.

 

Finally, Krayt will have far better team cohesion than Kyp Durron will, surprisingly. Talon and Wyyrlok’s intervention will afford him numerous advantages, and he doesn’t even need to kill Kyp, just create an opening. While the two most powerful titans on each team usually last the longest, the gap between Krayt and Kyp is enough that Kyp will be the first to fall./COLOR]

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Selenial

Selenial

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Posted (edited)
I disagree Tune should be allowed a rebuttal and a final post as well.

 

Why should the person who posted first and posted 3x the amount of posts also get to finish?

 

Not that I'm taking a side here, I'm just curious what aspect of this means he deserves another post.

Edited by Selenial
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Jarons

Jarons

Posted
Posted (edited)
Why should the person who posted first and posted 3x the amount of posts also get to finish?

 

Not that I'm taking a side here, I'm just curious what aspect of this means he deserves another post.

 

Well he should be allowed to post a final post or that would force a biased vote.Since he didn't have a chance to finished we would have to vote for You.

 

Wouldn't you want to post you final Argument especially facing a debater as skilled as you.Everyone should be allowed a final post by saying he doesn't deserve one its like saying Shadow shouldn't have a final argument since he had more post then Aurbere in their thread.If Shadow gets on then Tune should get one as well.

Edited by Jarons
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