Mara/Sent awful in PVP terms.

[jauvtus]

I just came back after a 2 year break.......my sent just feels fragile. I spend more time fleeing from the fight than being in it.........Just not as fun as it used to be.......running all the time cause you are dieing so fast sucks.....

 

Yeah you are right. I can only tell you this: try pvp as commando, enjoy their "survivability", after that even sents will feel unbeatable

[Falch]

I actually enjoy playing sentinel in PvP...i get much less focused than on my vanguard, much more enjoyable.

 

Im lvl 57 at the moment and i have jsut replaced my really old recruit/battlemaster set from way back in release, havent played the sent since....the release O.o

 

Anyway...i find that picking Your fight is important, if i know im not going to survive i just pop my invis and get my *** out of there. Also, after i started at 50 i played as concentration, switched to combat at 55, oh my it is so fast paced and so enjoyable....love it <3

[AcaciaDragon]

I just came back after a 2 year break.......my sent just feels fragile. I spend more time fleeing from the fight than being in it.........Just not as fun as it used to be.......running all the time cause you are dieing so fast sucks.....

 

Its considerably worse without good gear. Once I was up to par, I felt i had more time to React and was able to identify my best options for those situations. Dont underestimate LOS, or the Blood Ward Utility.

[Cordarn]

I haven't had any problems playing a marauder in midbies or lowbies. Honestly, I dominated midbies/lowbies. Its level 60 pvp that I have trouble with, yet I can still hold my own. I'm using Fury (I think, whichever is the shared spec). I just need to find a better rotation for 60's pvp. Edited August 19, 2015 by Cordarn

[Cordarn]

I would agree with you if they weren't the most CC susceptible class in the game. As it currently stands, with the ridiculous amounts of CC flying around, and the severe lack of any cc immunity for Marauders, they are as bad as everyone makes them out to be.

 

This is where I have most of my problems. Operatives and Shadows, with their abundance of stuns, stun lock me to the point of where I can't really do anything but force cloak and go find a heal buff.

[UOIachimo]

Sentinels / Marauders are team-oriented classes with AoE and Team buffs. Sure, if you get focused you'll likely die, but if you can escape once or twice, buff you teammates with speed/damage increases, and distract the other side, good teammates will see you through to victory.

 

And if you don't get focused, you can win one-on-one, and really finish off enemy after enemy, not to mention slowing them down.

Edited August 19, 2015 by UOIachimo

[Vodrin]

This is where I have most of my problems. Operatives and Shadows, with their abundance of stuns, stun lock me to the point of where I can't really do anything but force cloak and go find a heal buff.

 

Remember that fury gets 6 seconds of global CC immunity every 30 seconds after force crush. Best thing about the spec. Force Crush should almost always be your first attack once you have enough available focus/rage assuming it is off cooldown.

[Skettitangles]

Hate to break it to all who want a damage buff for Carnage, but the ranked PvP leaderboards show Mara/Sents in overall 3rd place based on top performers. A lot of them are Carnage/Combat spec. The damage is good guys. Que win trading conspiracy theories. Go!

[Warhams]

Hate to break it to all who want a damage buff for Carnage, but the ranked PvP leaderboards show Mara/Sents in overall 3rd place based on top performers. A lot of them are Carnage/Combat spec. The damage is good guys. Que win trading conspiracy theories. Go!

 

Mind explaining how they are in overall 3rd place? In Solo ranked there are only 6 marauders/sentinels in the top 100 and 4 maras/sents in top 100 for group ranked as of today. Theres no way we are overall 3rd place after Sorcs, Sins and PT , 4th/5th maybe but definitely not 3rd.

[Skettitangles]

Mind explaining how they are in overall 3rd place? In Solo ranked there are only 6 marauders/sentinels in the top 100 and 4 maras/sents in top 100 for group ranked as of today. Theres no way we are overall 3rd place after Sorcs, Sins and PT , 4th/5th maybe but definitely not 3rd.

 

 

Go to the summary page and add up the total top 5 ratings for each AC (I didn't do the math just glanced). Also look at what else makes up that top 100 solo ratings. Sure 4th place is probably more accurate but the point is we are performing at our best level since 3.0 and (at least on my server) a lot of maras that are doing very well this season are Carnage spec

[Cordarn]

Remember that fury gets 6 seconds of global CC immunity every 30 seconds after force crush. Best thing about the spec. Force Crush should almost always be your first attack once you have enough available focus/rage assuming it is off cooldown.

 

Didn't know that, I appreciate it though!

[Warhams]

Go to the summary page and add up the total top 5 ratings for each AC (I didn't do the math just glanced). Also look at what else makes up that top 100 solo ratings. Sure 4th place is probably more accurate but the point is we are performing at our best level since 3.0 and (at least on my server) a lot of maras that are doing very well this season are Carnage spec

 

Well for personal curiosity I added up all the top 100 players for solo ranked in terms of class played as of 21.8.2015 and this is what I got:

 

Sorc - 41

PT - 28

Ops - 11

Sin - 10

Mara -8

Jugg - 5

Merc - 1

Sniper -1

I've used the Imperial names so I don't have to double type. So I guess the best maras in the world can be competitive and get a high rating though I don't know what specs these top 8 Mara and Sents use. About equal to Ops and Sins, better than Merc and Sniper who are just weak at arenas and strangely Juggs also.

[Skettitangles]

Well for personal curiosity I added up all the top 100 players for solo ranked in terms of class played as of 21.8.2015 and this is what I got:

 

Sorc - 41

PT - 28

Ops - 11

Sin - 10

Mara -8

Jugg - 5

Merc - 1

Sniper -1

I've used the Imperial names so I don't have to double type. So I guess the best maras in the world can be competitive and get a high rating though I don't know what specs these top 8 Mara and Sents use. About equal to Ops and Sins, better than Merc and Sniper who are just weak at arenas and strangely Juggs also.

 

Hey thanks for going deeper into the data. I overestimated by just glancing at the top 5 ratings values but essentially were competitive in the mid range with just 2 ACs over performing from what I can see. To be outperforming juggs and fairly level with sins and operatives this season is noteworthy. I agree that of all the burst specs Carnage might seem weak but I think that has more to do with stealth classes having equal or better burst coupled with higher survivability and mobility rather than raw damage values plus the fact that it is difficult to execute a perfect gore window in more than 50% of the typical scenarios you'll get in solo ranked. Still, on Harbinger, a lot of those top ranked Marauders spec Carnage and somehow make it work

[Warhams]

It is like you said unfortunately but 4 man arenas tend not to be marauder friendly. I wasn't saying you were wrong in the fact that marauders can be competitive but its just not as strong at the two FOTMs and stealthers which always have an advantage in arenas. Hence I was abit sceptical about us being 3rd best this season.

[Lalainnia]

Why do people keep saying carnage burst is weak? The only other class/spec that has the same burst power speed and frequency is a MM sniper out of all the classes and spec in the game my top 3 classes to cc to stop burst if i had the option are MM snipers Carnage maras and Concealment operatives. MM sniper burst is almost near unavoidable unless you los pop a deflection like ability its the only reason I would put MM ahead of Carnage. Carnage's issue is it's opener is super susceptible to interruption either from a mez hard stun knock back pull etc. The only way I've personally seen it work and most of the time they just cc break it is using force choke and breaking the channel with gore. Otherwise if the fight lasts for more than 30 seconds and you're still alive carnage is going to be doing some carnage

[jauvtus]

Why do people keep saying carnage burst is weak? The only other class/spec that has the same burst power speed and frequency is a MM sniper out of all the classes and spec in the game my top 3 classes to cc to stop burst if i had the option are MM snipers Carnage maras and Concealment operatives. MM sniper burst is almost near unavoidable unless you los pop a deflection like ability its the only reason I would put MM ahead of Carnage. Carnage's issue is it's opener is super susceptible to interruption either from a mez hard stun knock back pull etc. The only way I've personally seen it work and most of the time they just cc break it is using force choke and breaking the channel with gore. Otherwise if the fight lasts for more than 30 seconds and you're still alive carnage is going to be doing some carnage

 

Being so susceptible to all kinds off CC nullifies our burst. Just let us pop Gore and CC. Wait CD, let us pop Gore and CC. Wait CD, let us pop Gore and CC. By this time the Madness sorc sapped your hp with trillions of dots and you are close to death (assuming you are still alive) and sorc is at full hp still. That's the great Carnage burst for you.

Edited August 21, 2015 by jauvtus

[Lalainnia]

Being so susceptible to all kinds off CC nullifies our burst. Just let us pop Gore and CC. Wait CD, let us pop Gore and CC. Wait CD, let us pop Gore and CC. By this time the Madness sorc sapped your hp with trillions of dots and you are close to death (assuming you are still alive) and sorc is at full hp still. That's the great Carnage burst for you.

 

And that's the issue maras need better means to get it off, and that's where again maras need a teammate to lock down someone the burst is still real though its the matter of getting it off and when its done it's the most brutal and hard to react to burst in the game esepcailly with under zerk. So far the main advanced class which literally every class has trouble facing are Sorcs, carnage burst on other oppents is very real in an arena setting with no healers if there was 1 sadness sorc (which sadly tends to be more) on the opposing team

 

I wouldn't even bother trying to open on them have someone try to cc them and make em waste a breaker or ubble if they're hype . Any other advanced class/spec is a prime target to open on. Carnage burst is real and it's deadly again it just relies on teamates to much to reach it's full potential as does any class in any role it's way more of an issue for this specific burst spec.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Why do people keep saying carnage burst is weak? The only other class/spec that has the same burst power speed and frequency is a MM sniper out of all the classes and spec in the game my top 3 classes to cc to stop burst if i had the option are MM snipers Carnage maras and Concealment operatives. MM sniper burst is almost near unavoidable unless you los pop a deflection like ability its the only reason I would put MM ahead of Carnage. Carnage's issue is it's opener is super susceptible to interruption either from a mez hard stun knock back pull etc. The only way I've personally seen it work and most of the time they just cc break it is using force choke and breaking the channel with gore. Otherwise if the fight lasts for more than 30 seconds and you're still alive carnage is going to be doing some carnage

 

Carnage's Burst is weaker compared to other classes. Our basic attack Massacre can't crit for 6k unless you get lucky and crit with A. the base hit, B. the Offhand Hit, and C. the Ataru Form Hit. Mag Blast, Lightning Bolt, and Veiled Strike can all crit for 6k if you have enough Surge.

 

You also have to factor in that Carnage has 2 Hard Hitting Burst Skills, under a Gore Window, which is so easy to shut down it's not even funny! All you need is 1 stun and your burst is shut down for another ~9s (depending on if you Gore during a Berserk or not) Whereas AP has 4 Hard Hitting skills (Rocket Punch, Thermal Detonator, Rail Shot, and Energy Burst) Lightning has 2 (Lightning Flash and Thundering Blast) and Concealment has 4 (5) (Veiled Strike, Laceration, Volatile Substance, Backstab [stealth Stab]) (I count Stealth Stab as a separate skill, but since you can't do a Stealth Stab > Backstab, it's not really a separate skill.) What I count as hard hitting, is anything that crits for over 6.5k, if it can crit for over 10k, that's really hard hitting. I don't count Ravage as hard hitting, because it deals it's damage over 3s, and each individual tick only crits for about 4k - 5k, which is not bursty at all. And, you are completely wasting a Gore window if you even think of using it on Ravage...

 

And don't even get me started on how fragile Carnage is... AP has 2 lives (3 if you count Warzone Medpacs) Sorcs have 2 lives, AND self healing out the wazoo. And Operatives have "2" Lives (Stealth Out is pretty much like a second life) and if you are spec'd Lethality, self heals better than a friggin Sorc. (that roll Insta Heal is like Dark Heal + Resurgence, except better because it's insta cast!)

 

So, yea... Carnage's burst is pretty friggin weak compared to other bursty classes...

[Lalainnia]

Carnage's Burst is weaker compared to other classes. Our basic attack Massacre can't crit for 6k unless you get lucky and crit with A. the base hit, B. the Offhand Hit, and C. the Ataru Form Hit. Mag Blast, Lightning Bolt, and Veiled Strike can all crit for 6k if you have enough Surge.

 

You also have to factor in that Carnage has 2 Hard Hitting Burst Skills, under a Gore Window, which is so easy to shut down it's not even funny! All you need is 1 stun and your burst is shut down for another ~9s (depending on if you Gore during a Berserk or not) Whereas AP has 4 Hard Hitting skills (Rocket Punch, Thermal Detonator, Rail Shot, and Energy Burst) Lightning has 2 (Lightning Flash and Thundering Blast) and Concealment has 4 (5) (Veiled Strike, Laceration, Volatile Substance, Backstab [stealth Stab]) (I count Stealth Stab as a separate skill, but since you can't do a Stealth Stab > Backstab, it's not really a separate skill.) What I count as hard hitting, is anything that crits for over 6.5k, if it can crit for over 10k, that's really hard hitting. I don't count Ravage as hard hitting, because it deals it's damage over 3s, and each individual tick only crits for about 4k - 5k, which is not bursty at all. And, you are completely wasting a Gore window if you even think of using it on Ravage...

 

And don't even get me started on how fragile Carnage is... AP has 2 lives (3 if you count Warzone Medpacs) Sorcs have 2 lives, AND self healing out the wazoo. And Operatives have "2" Lives (Stealth Out is pretty much like a second life) and if you are spec'd Lethality, self heals better than a friggin Sorc. (that roll Insta Heal is like Dark Heal + Resurgence, except better because it's insta cast!)

 

So, yea... Carnage's burst is pretty friggin weak compared to other bursty classes...

 

Really?.Massacare procs ataru form every single time independent of the normal rate limit which all comes up to 5-6k or more dependent on crits which is any burst class being dependant on crits, and this if you have enough surge thing makes no sense who wouldn't across any class/spec. Not to mention this move is a straight up spammer between gore windows so its constantly being used.

 

Already mentioned in my previous post that maras lack the ability to get off their burst specifically carnage and anni in openers burst which is very true AP can send out at least send out half of their burst with 2 grenades and x2 railshot before getting CC on an opener thanks to 30m range which is wrong and should be looked into for a class that's considered *melee*. Lighting yes range, polarity shift, and most likely bubble stun will let them get of their opening burst. Concealment almost always no issues getting of their opening burst as well thanks to stealth. Already agreed with all these things. As for ravage not being a burst ability that's silly under zerk with gore it's one of the most devastating abilities in the game.

 

As for surv Carnage is not fragile it actually has the highest DR of all 3 mara specs. AP has 3 lives? have you actually played an AP powertech? Kolto overload is very easy to burn through it's only difficult to burn down when facing a Pyro PT, Shieldtech or A Merc healer on a general basis. Are you seriously counting medpac which every single class has access to? Sorcs yes self healing and off healing lunatics. Lethalilty actually doesn't have better self healing this is really just some nonsense people make up roll gives 1 instant cast kolto pack o woopdie doo maybe if each roll reset the cd on kolopack it would be different. Otherwise no other kind of special healing the entire AC doesn't have it's just the playstyle leth has that forces it to use kolto probe and kolto pack so often. Most also take the heroic stimboost talent because it has a shorter cd in the tree so that's extra healing there still nothing the other specs can't get.

 

Lastly Mars have an aoe mez that's better than operative blind. Pacify can't remember imp name obs something for AP PTs, Juggernauts, Maras, Mercs, Assassin, and Snipers.. Guarded by the devs which is so much better now thanks to the hp cost going away and should be used just like good sorcs use barrier to prevent burst. Saber ward and when talented is oddly really awesome even more so as carnage thanks to alacrity. Force camo easily my personal fav def cd great vs Hatred and madness when they apply demolish with other dots running and vs Ap techs that set both grenades on. Not going to mention cloak on pain because without it maras are pretty squishy.

 

So no mara burst is not weak or bad it suffers to get it off but if you have more than 1 person attacking a target which should be happening in a warzone or arena it turns into a beautiful killing machine. Also mara def cds do not suck some of if not the most balanced and fun cds to use in the game imo. Some could do with some being on a lower cd and utilities being meshed together but they don't suck Warriors and Knights as a whole class have very fun and special interacting cd's to cycle through and manage .

[jauvtus]

Really?.Massacare procs ataru form every single time independent of the normal rate limit which all comes up to 5-6k or more dependent on crits which is any burst class being dependant on crits, and this if you have enough surge thing makes no sense who wouldn't across any class/spec. Not to mention this move is a straight up spammer between gore windows so its constantly being used.

 

Already mentioned in my previous post that maras lack the ability to get off their burst specifically carnage and anni in openers burst which is very true AP can send out at least send out half of their burst with 2 grenades and x2 railshot before getting CC on an opener thanks to 30m range which is wrong and should be looked into for a class that's considered *melee*. Lighting yes range, polarity shift, and most likely bubble stun will let them get of their opening burst. Concealment almost always no issues getting of their opening burst as well thanks to stealth. Already agreed with all these things. As for ravage not being a burst ability that's silly under zerk with gore it's one of the most devastating abilities in the game.

 

As for surv Carnage is not fragile it actually has the highest DR of all 3 mara specs. AP has 3 lives? have you actually played an AP powertech? Kolto overload is very easy to burn through it's only difficult to burn down when facing a Pyro PT, Shieldtech or A Merc healer on a general basis. Are you seriously counting medpac which every single class has access to? Sorcs yes self healing and off healing lunatics. Lethalilty actually doesn't have better self healing this is really just some nonsense people make up roll gives 1 instant cast kolto pack o woopdie doo maybe if each roll reset the cd on kolopack it would be different. Otherwise no other kind of special healing the entire AC doesn't have it's just the playstyle leth has that forces it to use kolto probe and kolto pack so often. Most also take the heroic stimboost talent because it has a shorter cd in the tree so that's extra healing there still nothing the other specs can't get.

 

Lastly Mars have an aoe mez that's better than operative blind. Pacify can't remember imp name obs something for AP PTs, Juggernauts, Maras, Mercs, Assassin, and Snipers.. Guarded by the devs which is so much better now thanks to the hp cost going away and should be used just like good sorcs use barrier to prevent burst. Saber ward and when talented is oddly really awesome even more so as carnage thanks to alacrity. Force camo easily my personal fav def cd great vs Hatred and madness when they apply demolish with other dots running and vs Ap techs that set both grenades on. Not going to mention cloak on pain because without it maras are pretty squishy.

 

So no mara burst is not weak or bad it suffers to get it off but if you have more than 1 person attacking a target which should be happening in a warzone or arena it turns into a beautiful killing machine. Also mara def cds do not suck some of if not the most balanced and fun cds to use in the game imo. Some could do with some being on a lower cd and utilities being meshed together but they don't suck Warriors and Knights as a whole class have very fun and special interacting cd's to cycle through and manage .

 

Have you read the post? Massacre only crits for 6k if all 3 components crit at the same time...

Yeah, Carnage has CC susceptibility issues, thats agreed. Calling Ravage a hard hitter is ridiculous. It had the same (maybe higher) damage as level 55 when hp polls were lower. Survivability: Annihilation has 5% dmg reduction if it has bleed dot on someone, Fury has ??%defense chance after each Furious Strike, Carnage has 3x2=6% defense chance with 3 Ataru strikes. So no, Carnage doesnt get any dmg reduction at all, only defense. From utilities we can get 2% dmg reduction with Brazen, 30% aoe dmg red+5% elemental/internal dmg red from Defensive Roll and that's it. For defensives: Cloak of Pain is ok I guess, 20% dmg red for 6s, and can last for 30s if constantly attacked. If we pop it and they see it and ignore us (CC) for 6s, then it's gone; Guarded by the Devs, aka Undying lasts for 4s, and you can CC us during it, has 3min CD and ofc e-net ignores it; Saber Ward is pretty powerful, 50% defense chance+25% yellow dmg reduction but it has 3 min CD as well. Force Camo is great way to negate AP grenades, but AP grenades have way shorter CD, so they just reapply, and using Force Camo is useless against Madness and Hatred: you just sit there, thousands of dots slowly rotting your hp. Sure they cant cast Demolish, oh its OP, lets take Camo away!

I'm not saying mara is too weak defensively. I know how weak is mando for example. But claiming that mara has great dmg reduction and defensives is utter **** at best. We have the longest CD on defensives and Force Camo is not that useful as many think, sure it negates AP as said, but basically you just sit there for a few seconds since it doesnt end combat, so you cant regenerate. The best you can hope for is to break a cast for someone and thats it. Ppl really overestimate mara defCDs, but they're just solid at best.

[Vodrin]

I would agree with you if they weren't the most CC susceptible class in the game. As it currently stands, with the ridiculous amounts of CC flying around, and the severe lack of any cc immunity for Marauders, they are as bad as everyone makes them out to be.

 

They are fine in regs, particularly as Fury/concentration as that spec can get about as much resistance/ counters for CC as any class in the game right now. That said, they cannot get the combination of self healing with CC immunity that the more effective solo ranked classes (PT, Sin, Sorc, and their mirrors) have. As such they suffer in solo ranked. As part of a pre-made group they are still quite good.

 

Have you read the post? Massacre only crits for 6k if all 3 components crit at the same time...

Yeah, Carnage has CC susceptibility issues, thats agreed. Calling Ravage a hard hitter is ridiculous. It had the same (maybe higher) damage as level 55 when hp polls were lower. Survivability: Annihilation has 5% dmg reduction if it has bleed dot on someone, Fury has ??%defense chance after each Furious Strike, Carnage has 3x2=6% defense chance with 3 Ataru strikes. So no, Carnage doesnt get any dmg reduction at all, only defense. From utilities we can get 2% dmg reduction with Brazen, 30% aoe dmg red+5% elemental/internal dmg red from Defensive Roll and that's it. For defensives: Cloak of Pain is ok I guess, 20% dmg red for 6s, and can last for 30s if constantly attacked. If we pop it and they see it and ignore us (CC) for 6s, then it's gone; Guarded by the Devs, aka Undying lasts for 4s, and you can CC us during it, has 3min CD and ofc e-net ignores it; Saber Ward is pretty powerful, 50% defense chance+25% yellow dmg reduction but it has 3 min CD as well. Force Camo is great way to negate AP grenades, but AP grenades have way shorter CD, so they just reapply, and using Force Camo is useless against Madness and Hatred: you just sit there, thousands of dots slowly rotting your hp. Sure they cant cast Demolish, oh its OP, lets take Camo away!

I'm not saying mara is too weak defensively. I know how weak is mando for example. But claiming that mara has great dmg reduction and defensives is utter **** at best. We have the longest CD on defensives and Force Camo is not that useful as many think, sure it negates AP as said, but basically you just sit there for a few seconds since it doesnt end combat, so you cant regenerate. The best you can hope for is to break a cast for someone and thats it. Ppl really overestimate mara defCDs, but they're just solid at best.

 

 

Just a quick correction, the talent that gives 6% defense chance off of ataru proc's also gives +6% flat damage reduction. This does make carnage the least squishy of the three specs. I would agree that mara/sent is not the most durable of melee classes, but it is actually better than the AP PT (especially if you spec for max escapes/mitigation through utilities). I really think carnages main problem is with how easy they are to shut down with CC. The burst is just fine otherwise. Yes it is less relative to health pools with respect to pre 3.0 carnage, but sustained is better and the burst is fine to get kills if you can get it off. But that is the problem, you frequently cannot get it off no matter how smart you play.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Vodrin

[Vodrin]

And that's the issue maras need better means to get it off, and that's where again maras need a teammate to lock down someone the burst is still real though its the matter of getting it off and when its done it's the most brutal and hard to react to burst in the game esepcailly with under zerk. So far the main advanced class which literally every class has trouble facing are Sorcs, carnage burst on other oppents is very real in an arena setting with no healers if there was 1 sadness sorc (which sadly tends to be more) on the opposing team

 

I wouldn't even bother trying to open on them have someone try to cc them and make em waste a breaker or ubble if they're hype . Any other advanced class/spec is a prime target to open on. Carnage burst is real and it's deadly again it just relies on teamates to much to reach it's full potential as does any class in any role it's way more of an issue for this specific burst spec.

 

This is why I have been advocating for extending the CC immunity that Fury/concentration currently gets to Carnage and annihilation (attached to Gore and Force Rend respectively). Giving each of those spec's one guaranteed burst cycle every 30 seconds would not quite bring these spec's into line with the more effective ones, but it would bring them closer.

[Lalainnia]

Have you read the post? Massacre only crits for 6k if all 3 components crit at the same time...

Yeah, Carnage has CC susceptibility issues, thats agreed. Calling Ravage a hard hitter is ridiculous. It had the same (maybe higher) damage as level 55 when hp polls were lower. Survivability: Annihilation has 5% dmg reduction if it has bleed dot on someone, Fury has ??%defense chance after each Furious Strike, Carnage has 3x2=6% defense chance with 3 Ataru strikes. So no, Carnage doesnt get any dmg reduction at all, only defense. From utilities we can get 2% dmg reduction with Brazen, 30% aoe dmg red+5% elemental/internal dmg red from Defensive Roll and that's it. For defensives: Cloak of Pain is ok I guess, 20% dmg red for 6s, and can last for 30s if constantly attacked. If we pop it and they see it and ignore us (CC) for 6s, then it's gone; Guarded by the Devs, aka Undying lasts for 4s, and you can CC us during it, has 3min CD and ofc e-net ignores it; Saber Ward is pretty powerful, 50% defense chance+25% yellow dmg reduction but it has 3 min CD as well. Force Camo is great way to negate AP grenades, but AP grenades have way shorter CD, so they just reapply, and using Force Camo is useless against Madness and Hatred: you just sit there, thousands of dots slowly rotting your hp. Sure they cant cast Demolish, oh its OP, lets take Camo away!

I'm not saying mara is too weak defensively. I know how weak is mando for example. But claiming that mara has great dmg reduction and defensives is utter **** at best. We have the longest CD on defensives and Force Camo is not that useful as many think, sure it negates AP as said, but basically you just sit there for a few seconds since it doesnt end combat, so you cant regenerate. The best you can hope for is to break a cast for someone and thats it. Ppl really overestimate mara defCDs, but they're just solid at best.

 

 

Carnage does have the highest DR they get 6% from ataru form and another 2 % from the lv 52 talent its called force health on pubside. If you honestly can't get Masscare spam to hit for 6k then that's a gear issue or you're beating into an enemy that has DR cds up.. Since your going to bring up cloak of pain it only need a dot to keep ticking to refresh which is very often but it does have the weakness of being ignored for 6 secs.

 

Guarded by the devs has the same exact cd as sorcs force barrier they each have there own trade offs and advantages, imo barrier is miles ahead for 3 major reasons Can't be CCed during the channel removes all negative effects and leaves positive ones like hots if solo and no team support this is invaluable. Lastly it provides a massive absorb shield plus interrupt immunity for 5 secs i think could be 8 also the heal to full if talented is insane as well plus its off the gcd. The main upside to guarded by the devs is that you can still actively attack during it that's about it but no less it's a very powerful CD and if you get stunned during it that means someone simply out played you or you're fighting more than 1 person either way it still does it's purpose and that's block damage cced or not. As for AP grenades vs force camo I would hope they would be able to get another set off after using it as having something like force camo every 9-18 seconds would be overpowered..... VS dot classes force camo is amazing after having a full set of dots placed on you with the death field bonus and you can cut the damage in half for 4 seconds or 6 if speced which is kinda rare to see tbh and reduced that burst moment ofc the down side is having to stop damage but its a heck of a def cd and like you said it can also be used offensively.

 

As for ravage no, It does in fact hit very hard and very fast under gore and zerk which is really the only time it should be used with that you're looking at somewhere near 10k no crits or stance procs in damage in a 1.5-2 second window depending on alacrity.

 

Also most classes major def cd's are long in general its the fact that mara's have utterly no self healing or the poor crap excuse that are anni trickle heals. It's also what makes blood ward so crazy nice in 4v4 dps games.

 

The main thing I keep seeing so far is QQ about sorcs which is fine sorcs as an entire class are overturned everyone knows it doesn't mean maras suck. Stop trying to compare yourself to a broken class it's silly.

[Lalainnia]

This is why I have been advocating for extending the CC immunity that Fury/concentration currently gets to Carnage and annihilation (attached to Gore and Force Rend respectively). Giving each of those spec's one guaranteed burst cycle every 30 seconds would not quite bring these spec's into line with the more effective ones, but it would bring them closer.

 

EXACTLY! heck the talent from vengeance juggs without the 20% DR after leaping should be a baseline warrior and knight thing imo maybe not for tanks.... In it's place they could bring back the old talent for vengeance where they used to also get the DR effect after using Intercede on a friendly. player. Tbh I personally think it was even harder before 3.0 for knights to get stuff off because people used to be able to cleanse knight leap root. Main thing is TTK is just way more sporadic then before maybe not as bad as late 2.8 or 2.9 but its worse.

[LordCamTheGreat]

When as a level 59 marauder, you are being beaten in a 1v1 vs a sage near 20 levels below you, use all your defensive cds and still lose, you know that something is wrong. (annihilation spec, but lets be honest, all specs need to be buffed)