Ideas about fixing sentinels/marauders

[jauvtus]

So I got bored and wrote this stuff. Would be nice if a dev actually read the thread and responded

 

Classwide change (through sentinel/marauder passive Jar'Kai mastery - dual wield mastery is already taken:) ): Increase Master Strike/Ravage CD to 30/36s and buff dmg by 66/100%. This would bring back the old attack that's worthy of channeling instead of clipping, also allow Combat/Carnage to have actual burst (though it's not enough to fix the whole spec)

 

Watchman/Annihilation changes:

Cauterize/Rupture have 12s CD and deals its DoT dmg over a 6s duration

Burning Slash/Haemorrhaging Slash: Cyclone Slash/Sweeping Slash spread a 50% weaker version of Cauterize/Rupture's dot damage (since the new Cauterize/Rupture would be harder hitting; also with this change we only have 2 dotspreading ability instead of 3)

Juyo Mastery increases the critical chance of your burn/bleed effects by 3% per stack of Juyo form (up from 2%)

Merciless Zeal/Hungering: your burn/bleed effects with critical hits heal you for 1% of your maximum health

Mind sear/Pulverize makes your Merciless Slash/Annihilate and your Slash/Melting Saber/Vicious Slash/Rending Saber finish the CD of Cauterize/Rupture with 66% and 33% chance, respectively, with an internal CD of 6s

New level 57 ability: Melting Saber/Rending Saber (use Rupture animation for Melting Saber and Cauterize animation for Rending Saber)

Deals weapon damage and elemental/internal damage (like Dirty Blast/Lethal Shot for slinger/sniper). Will act as a replacement for Slash/Vicious Slash ofc.

New level 59 passive: Force Melt/Force Rend

Each use of Melting Saber/Rending Saber builds a stack of Force Melt/Force Rend, increasing the damage dealt by Melting Saber/Rending Saber by 2%. Last 12s, stacks up to 3 times. Also Merciless/Annihilator and Juyo Mastery builds 2 stacks at a time

 

I'm not good at theorycrafting, so I cant attach damage values, also percentages in the descriptions are open for debate, I rather offer a gameplay change. I focused on Watchman/Annihilation since it's my main spec, I welcome any ideas for the other 2 specs from who see the flaws of those systems better.

[Lampwrecker]

I think we could use some sort of teleport kind of like warlocks. One of the problems we have is getting out of a fight when we are in trouble most classes can run faster then us or shoot us from range we have no escape we just die. If we had a port we could set up pre fight and port back to if we got in a fight we could not win. This would give us a chance to escape.

[AcaciaDragon]

I think we could use some sort of teleport kind of like warlocks. One of the problems we have is getting out of a fight when we are in trouble most classes can run faster then us or shoot us from range we have no escape we just die. If we had a port we could set up pre fight and port back to if we got in a fight we could not win. This would give us a chance to escape.

 

Force Camoflauge

Endless Rage

Force Charge to someone else

Predation.

 

4 Escapes/delays. Learn to be aware of your sorroundings to LOS if need be.

[jauvtus]

Force Camoflauge

Endless Rage

Force Charge to someone else

Predation.

 

4 Escapes/delays. Learn to be aware of your sorroundings to LOS if need be.

 

While a teleport would be cool, i agree we dont need one. Force camo has 45s CD (would be nice to have the cleanse as baseline ). Endless Rage is a Juggernaut Rage generating passive You probably mean Undying Rage, thats 99% dmg reduction for 4 s with 3min CD (6s with 2:30min with utility). We can be stunned during that so I wouldnt call that a real delay, but OK. If you Force Charge someone else, you probably only make it worse for yourself Predation is very powerful, I think ppl still underestimate it, especially with Fleetfooted, Unbound, you are as fast as a supersonic PT. I don't think we need a teleport escape.

 

Now can I have feedback on what I wrote?

[Knightless]

The origional Sentinel class is based upon the proof for the jedi knight class. Like most force adepts, they refrence powerfull examples of force users in there own tradition. There is a big difference between historical icons, and a fully trained jedi knight.

 

An adept is someone with some level of ability to use the force. Natural force abilities are often untrained. The academy existed to teach and hone basic skills into a single cohesive branch of skills and knowledge, that could be easily understood and tought.

 

:csw_bluesaber:"It is not to underestimate, the ability of a force adept.".

Edited July 27, 2015 by Knightless

[Lampwrecker]

Force Camoflauge

Endless Rage

Force Charge to someone else

Predation.

 

4 Escapes/delays. Learn to be aware of your sorroundings to LOS if need be.

 

Endless rage lasts 4 seconds

Force camo everyone aoe's and there is not enough time to even get out of melee range if slowed or stunned

Predation is pretty much slow motion compared to what every other class has.

 

Compared to what other classes have and how fast/often we die I don't think a teleport is that crazy. Maybe if Force camo took us out of combat would be nice so we could hit it then heal instantly for a few seconds.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Lampwrecker

[jauvtus]

Endless rage lasts 4 seconds

Force camo everyone aoe's and there is not enough time to even get out of melee range if slowed or stunned

Predation is pretty much slow motion compared to what every other class has.

 

Compared to what other classes have and how fast/often we die I don't think a teleport is that crazy. Maybe if Force camo took us out of combat would be nice so we could hit it then heal instantly for a few seconds.

 

My guess is you started marauder a day ago:

Endless Rage is not a marauder ability, its a juggernaut passive. The marauder ability is called Undying Rage.

Force Camo purges all movement-impairment, boosts your movement speed, grants immunity to CC and 50% dmg reduction. So literally none of you arguments are valid.

Predation is 50%/80% movement speed increase that's the biggest increase in the game, only PTs have the same speed increase (inq speed increase is only 2-2,5s).

And at last Force Camo cant take out of combat, WE ARE NOT A STEALTH CLASS. We dont need a teleport. If you still want one, reroll a shadow/assassin, you can have everything you want there.

[Lampwrecker]

So pred can run faster then blasters and ranged attacks.

[Lampwrecker]

Thought this thread was called Ideas about fixing sentinels/marauders there is some ideas because you don't like them is not my problem.

 

Want to fix Marauders double are damage out put so **** dies faster and we will be fine.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

So pred can run faster then blasters and ranged attacks.

 

Sorry for the wall -

 

No speed boost of any class moves faster than blaster bolts/ranged attacks of like kind (saber throws for example).

 

I believe what Jauvtus is saying (If I may be so bold) is that your use of certain terms belays inexperience with the Marauder class (Not that there is anything wrong with that mind you), citing endless rage as a marauder ability speaks to that (Endless Rage is Jugg passive that grants 1 point of rage when attacked in shii-cho form).

 

Some stealth classes have the ability to "disappear" and escape combat (without actually leaving combat) and heal themselves and such and come back invisible and shank you in the back like the cowardly dogs those classes are (=]). There is nothing warrior like about such tactics. While Marauders can use Force camo to "disappear" it is fleeting to the extent that allows you no time to do anything appreciable to put you back in the fight better off than you had been when you used force camo (your still in combat so you cant use heal packs/ does not increase said limits per fight), you reappear a few seconds later, You might put a little distance between yourself and your opponent, but your not outrunning them in any significant manner and they can just use any of their ranged attacks on you again immediately.

 

Citing Warlock teleports doesn't much help your case either. Even Sith Sorcerors aren't like merlin types. A teleport is not something you'd associate with Sith Warriors or Jedi Knights. Assassins and Jedi Shadows are not Sith Warriors or Jedi Knights. Giving either such "teleport" abilities would not only be silly (IMO) it would be an invasion into the stealth classes areas of expertise. I don't want to see sneaky assassins using Ravage and they don't want to see Marauders using stealth abilities. Furthermore, there are much better uses for Force Camo to already hard pressed Marauders than sneaking past a junk mob.

 

As Jauvtus pointed out, you can chose utilities that further expand upon the uses of Force camo, one helps you with cleansable effects, another helps you overcome movement-impairment.etc. Things that would help you with some of the reasons you state for the need for a "teleport-like ability".

 

I think the most important point Jauvtus made was that you can't have everything.

 

Marauders are Warriors. They don't just want to kill, they want to fight. That's what they are. That's what they do. That's all they do.

 

I do agree that you are entitled to propose any manner of ideas. Whether other people will like them or not, it is your right and I do not doubt that your proposals are made in the interest of helping the class overcome some of it's under performing problems.

 

I don't care for the idea of Marauders teleporting anywhere for any reason, but, I couldn't support your proposal that they increase the damage output of the class across the board more.

 

No one, no class, no spec should be out DPSing pure DPS classes (Marauders/Snipers) on the whole, all things being equal.. Not Juggs, not PTs, not cowardly assassins, not Bounty Hunters, not Sorcerors, no one.

They do not focus on War and Battle to the exclusion of all else. We do.

You start throwing teleport's, sneaking skills and outrunning blaster bolts into the mix, we no longer have that justification when it comes to DPS.

 

I don't want to be able to take the kind of beating a Juggernaut can. I wanna kill everything I see.

I don't want to be able to outrun blaster bolts. I wanna kill everything I see.

I don't want to be able to teleport OUT of battle, because that would be going in the exact opposite direction I want to be - In the fight.

 

Some of our problems with survivability don't even have anything to do with what we do or don't have. They have to do with external mechanics built into fights by the dev's that make our survivability problematic because we can't be where we need to be to hack to death our enemies. (Circle hells/ knockbacks, enemy leaps, etc.).

 

Improvements can be made via utilities, reclassification of passives, development/expansion of class abilities, which would be completely justified because of said mechanics. Something has to give one way or the other.

Edited July 29, 2015 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[jauvtus]

Sorry for the wall -

 

No speed boost of any class moves faster than blaster bolts/ranged attacks of like kind (saber throws for example).

 

I believe what Jauvtus is saying (If I may be so bold) is that your use of certain terms belays inexperience with the Marauder class (Not that there is anything wrong with that mind you), citing endless rage as a marauder ability speaks to that (Endless Rage is Jugg passive that grants 1 point of rage when attacked in shii-cho form).

 

Some stealth classes have the ability to "disappear" and escape combat (without actually leaving combat) and heal themselves and such and come back invisible and shank you in the back like the cowardly dogs those classes are (=]). There is nothing warrior like about such tactics. While Marauders can use Force camo to "disappear" it is fleeting to the extent that allows you no time to do anything appreciable to put you back in the fight better off than you had been when you used force camo (your still in combat so you cant use heal packs/ does not increase said limits per fight), you reappear a few seconds later, You might put a little distance between yourself and your opponent, but your not outrunning them in any significant manner and they can just use any of their ranged attacks on you again immediately.

 

Citing Warlock teleports doesn't much help your case either. Even Sith Sorcerors aren't like merlin types. A teleport is not something you'd associate with Sith Warriors or Jedi Knights. Assassins and Jedi Shadows are not Sith Warriors or Jedi Knights. Giving either such "teleport" abilities would not only be silly (IMO) it would be an invasion into the stealth classes areas of expertise. I don't want to see sneaky assassins using Ravage and they don't want to see Marauders using stealth abilities. Furthermore, there are much better uses for Force Camo to already hard pressed Marauders than sneaking past a junk mob.

 

As Jauvtus pointed out, you can chose utilities that further expand upon the uses of Force camo, one helps you with cleansable effects, another helps you overcome movement-impairment.etc. Things that would help you with some of the reasons you state for the need for a "teleport-like ability".

 

I think the most important point Jauvtus made was that you can't have everything.

 

Marauders are Warriors. They don't just want to kill, they want to fight. That's what they are. That's what they do. That's all they do.

 

I do agree that you are entitled to propose any manner of ideas. Whether other people will like them or not, it is your right and I do not doubt that your proposals are made in the interest of helping the class overcome some of it's under performing problems.

 

I don't care for the idea of Marauders teleporting anywhere for any reason, but, I couldn't support your proposal that they increase the damage output of the class across the board more.

 

No one, no class, no spec should be out DPSing pure DPS classes (Marauders/Snipers) on the whole, all things being equal.. Not Juggs, not PTs, not cowardly assassins, not Bounty Hunters, not Sorcerors, no one.

They do not focus on War and Battle to the exclusion of all else. We do.

You start throwing teleport's, sneaking skills and outrunning blaster bolts into the mix, we no longer have that justification when it comes to DPS.

 

I don't want to be able to take the kind of beating a Juggernaut can. I wanna kill everything I see.

I don't want to be able to outrun blaster bolts. I wanna kill everything I see.

I don't want to be able to teleport OUT of battle, because that would be going in the exact opposite direction I want to be - In the fight.

 

Some of our problems with survivability don't even have anything to do with what we do or don't have. They have to do with external mechanics built into fights by the dev's that make our survivability problematic because we can't be where we need to be to hack to death our enemies. (Circle hells/ knockbacks, enemy leaps, etc.).

 

Improvements can be made via utilities, reclassification of passives, development/expansion of class abilities, which would be completely justified because of said mechanics. Something has to give one way or the other.

 

Good to know someone understands me

1 thing: I believe Force camo purges all movement-impairment on activation baseline (also CC-immunity and 50% dmg reduction). Many good/great sentinels were surprised when I told them about Force Camo and it's uses in PvE (avoid knockback on Lurker for example), also many underestimate it as escape (personally I rather try to use it offensively, but its more useful for defensives in the current meta). I think there are still things that many sentinels dont utilize in our arsenal. Thats why I dont ask for buffs or new abilities. I simply want Watchman rotation and self-heals fixed and I'll shut up (there is that utility tax thing but i swear i would shut up if they fixed watchman)

[Vodrin]

Good to know someone understands me

1 thing: I believe Force camo purges all movement-impairment on activation baseline (also CC-immunity and 50% dmg reduction). Many good/great sentinels were surprised when I told them about Force Camo and it's uses in PvE (avoid knockback on Lurker for example), also many underestimate it as escape (personally I rather try to use it offensively, but its more useful for defensives in the current meta). I think there are still things that many sentinels dont utilize in our arsenal. Thats why I dont ask for buffs or new abilities. I simply want Watchman rotation and self-heals fixed and I'll shut up (there is that utility tax thing but i swear i would shut up if they fixed watchman)

 

I think you are onto something for Watchman. DPS is OK, but it still takes much too long to get the damage rolling and you have to be on target constantly (difficult in PvE and impossible in PvP) to put out good damage. I would love to see the duration of cauterize/rupture and force rend/melt reduced to say 6 seconds with the same overall damage for their duration, and cooldowns added to both to make the overall DPS the same as it is now, but with better burst. I'd also like to see the DoT spread attached to twin saber through instead of force sweep as the radius is just too small. TST should also refresh the duration of the DoT's as it would otherwise be impossible to get much out of spreading them with the shorter durations.

 

Watchman/Anni and Carnage/Combat both also need some sort of CC immunity of the type that Fury/Centering get attached to Force Crush and its mirror. In PvP I almost feel obligated to take expunging cammo and fleet footed with any spec other than centering right now.

[jauvtus]

I think you are onto something for Watchman. DPS is OK, but it still takes much too long to get the damage rolling and you have to be on target constantly (difficult in PvE and impossible in PvP) to put out good damage. I would love to see the duration of cauterize/rupture and force rend/melt reduced to say 6 seconds with the same overall damage for their duration, and cooldowns added to both to make the overall DPS the same as it is now, but with better burst. I'd also like to see the DoT spread attached to twin saber through instead of force sweep as the radius is just too small. TST should also refresh the duration of the DoT's as it would otherwise be impossible to get much out of spreading them with the shorter durations.

 

Watchman/Anni and Carnage/Combat both also need some sort of CC immunity of the type that Fury/Centering get attached to Force Crush and its mirror. In PvP I almost feel obligated to take expunging cammo and fleet footed with any spec other than centering right now.

 

They dont need to do anything with watchman, just revert it to 2.10. Right now we dotspread Cauterize and Force Melt with Force Sweep and spread Overload Saber with Cyclone Slash and TST. So technically TST is already a dotspread ability Since I want 2.10 back, I dont want Force Melt shortened, I want it destroyed and the dev who came up with it fired.

I am sorry to say that I dont agree on Watchman and Combat getting CC immunity. I rather want to remove all CC immunities from the game from every class (ofc nerf ranged in return but current meta is just not right).

 

P.S. If you play pvp, you mustnt take Contemplation unless you are Concentration (and even then its not obligatory). Complete waste of a heroic utility. You are better of with Fleetfooted/Zealous Ward/Enduring/Expunging Camo/Leg Slash utilities (need skillful too, dont use it myself)

[Vodrin]

They dont need to do anything with watchman, just revert it to 2.10. Right now we dotspread Cauterize and Force Melt with Force Sweep and spread Overload Saber with Cyclone Slash and TST. So technically TST is already a dotspread ability Since I want 2.10 back, I dont want Force Melt shortened, I want it destroyed and the dev who came up with it fired.

I am sorry to say that I dont agree on Watchman and Combat getting CC immunity. I rather want to remove all CC immunities from the game from every class (ofc nerf ranged in return but current meta is just not right).

 

P.S. If you play pvp, you mustnt take Contemplation unless you are Concentration (and even then its not obligatory). Complete waste of a heroic utility. You are better of with Fleetfooted/Zealous Ward/Enduring/Expunging Camo/Leg Slash utilities (need skillful too, dont use it myself)

 

I'm currently take expunging cammo and fleet footed. My situational awareness is not so good again yet, so I need every tool I can get to stay on target and fight those ranged kiters. I'd love to have contemplation as well, but most of the time I have a full centering stack by the time I my second burst cycle is off cooldown anyways.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Vodrin

[jauvtus]

I currently take expunging cammo and fleet footed. My situational awareness is not so good again yet, so I need every tool I can get to stay on target and fight those ranged kiters. I'd love to have contemplation as well, but most of the time I have a full centering stack by the time I my second burst cycle is off cooldown anyways.

 

I prefer Zealous Ward to Expunging Camo, 24% heal+50% defense bonus+25% tech/force absorb makes Saber Ward very powerful, but I see the point of Camo utility, especially with a pocket healer. Also if you have problems with staying on target and you are Watchman/Combat you shouldnt use Ardor, but use your Centering for a much higher uptime of Transendence, also you can take Force Fade now that you dont spend a point on Ardor, further boosting you (you will lose your 4-piece bonus though, but you will pretty much constantly run with +80% movement speed, outrunning PTs)

[Vodrin]

I prefer Zealous Ward to Expunging Camo, 24% heal+50% defense bonus+25% tech/force absorb makes Saber Ward very powerful, but I see the point of Camo utility, especially with a pocket healer. Also if you have problems with staying on target and you are Watchman/Combat you shouldnt use Ardor, but use your Centering for a much higher uptime of Transendence, also you can take Force Fade now that you dont spend a point on Ardor, further boosting you (you will lose your 4-piece bonus though, but you will pretty much constantly run with +80% movement speed, outrunning PTs)

 

The thing is if you use your centering stacks on trans you really gimp your DPS. Personally I think the suggestion I heard to make defensive forms a class passive and move expunging cammo to the first tier is really good. That would open up the possibility of taking zealous ward without giving up a great root counter. On another note I sometimes do take force fade and give up the cooldown reduction on Force Stasis. I go back and forth on that one though.

[Vember]

Force Camoflauge

Endless Rage

Force Charge to someone else

Predation.

 

4 Escapes/delays. Learn to be aware of your sorroundings to LOS if need be.

 

Kinda meh compared to other classes. Although i love force camo and predation. Undying Rage is pure crap due to the ridiculous cooldown timer.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Vember

[jauvtus]

The thing is if you use your centering stacks on trans you really gimp your DPS. Personally I think the suggestion I heard to make defensive forms a class passive and move expunging cammo to the first tier is really good. That would open up the possibility of taking zealous ward without giving up a great root counter. On another note I sometimes do take force fade and give up the cooldown reduction on Force Stasis. I go back and forth on that one though.

 

In pvp, mobility and survivability is priority one, dps is only 2nd. So it really makes sense to use Transendence instead of Zen in pvp. Ofc Zen is needed in Concentration, so you cant do it there, but you can decide between mobility and dps in Watchman and Combat (for Combat it makes a little more sense to use Zen now, Watchman only used to: when we had 2% hp heal on dotcrits, Zen meant 6*2+6=18% hp and 36% hp with Valorous Call, now it's only 6% hp regular, 12% with VC, so it makes lot of sense to use Transendence for Watchman, ever since our selfheal was destroyed - not just nerfed, its destroyed).

[Saikochoro]

Kinda meh compared to other classes. Although i love force camo and predation. Undying Rage is pure crap due to the ridiculous cooldown timer.

 

I've started to use undying rage differently since there is no health penalty anymore. Sometimes I will pop it when I am not even close to dying. I will often use it when I am expecting focus. For example: if I am on a team with a bunch of range and stealth toons I can safely assume that none of those are going to want to draw the aggro of the other players in a warzone or an arena. So, since I will often be the focus anyway I will leap in and pop it and use 6 seconds of cc immunity from force crush to lay down some damage and hopefully take the enemy team's opening burst giving the rest of my team the opportunity to open up on their team while they are focused on me. I've done this several times and its surprising how many teams will totally blow their load of burst and cc on you when you do that. Totally wasted their cc and their opening burst. And gives your team enough time to open how they'd like to. Of course it doesn't work as well if you aren't a fury mara....and it's not necessarily the greatest tactic either, but it can be fun to surprise them with it.

 

Not saying I always do that, but I don't always save undying rage for the end like I used to. It has its uses as an anti focus even if you are stunned through it.