Why the hate for players who do not know how to play?

[NoahRedden]

The point of this thread is about player belittling other player and here you are belittling me because I don't want to waste my time to explain the game to someone else. You sir are clearly the problem with the game not I. You resort to insult someone because they don't play the game how you think they should. Just the OP point.

 

BTW I have limited use of my left hand due to a mountain bike crash. I use a keypad because it place the keys in a much easier place for me to use them. So neither of my hands are touching the keyboard as I play. So in order to reply to a people question. I have to stop what I am doing in order to answer even the simplest question.

 

Unwillingness to learn are people that can bother to read a talent as they unlock it.

 

I'm the problem in the game? You've really run out of things to say to defend yourself.

 

Sorry for your accident. But seriously? That's the excuse you give me so I feel bad for you or something?

 

I don't need to say anything more, play how you want. I'm just saying players would benefit if questions were answered rather than just ignored because you can't bother to type at the moment because you're so busy playing the game and you hurt your poor left hand, wooooow.

Edited July 19, 2015 by NoahRedden

[Warrgames]

The game market has changed over the years, as has the gaming population in general.

 

I'm 40 years old, I grew up in the 80's playing the NES, which had some truly hard games. Moving on to the SNES, then PlayStation, the games got easier over the years. Now my kids have a PS4 and a Wii U, and frankly almost nothing on them is that hard. One of their current favorites is LEGO Marvel Super Heroes. Honestly, a really cool and fun game, but you can't lose. You get unlimited lives, progress is always saved along the way, you get unlimited tries, and the fun is in playing with the various characters and seeing the levels, rather than the actual difficulty.

 

I work for a living, I have a family, I'm busy, so when I sit down to play a game, I don't want it to be launch-version Ultima Online hard. I want to be entertained and to see a story and have some fun with other people. There are millions of people in my demographic who grew up with games, who now have careers, families, and most importantly... money to pay for all this... but what we don't want is uber hard challenges.

 

TL;DR: Millions of players in 2015 want to FEEL challenged without actually BEING challenged. It is a fine line, but it is more "interactive movie" than "hard core MMO" these days.

 

And if you don't like the above, then SWTOR is probably not for you.

 

QFT.

You will be hard pressed to find games now a days that carter to HC MMO. There are few players looking for that type of game anymore.

[Heat-Wave]

I would not call it hate but rather being annoyed by:

 

-Those who need on EVERYTHING in Flashpoints, even after being told several times not to

 

I call people out on this and give them a chance to stop it.

 

I didn't understand the need/greed system once, I had it backwards (thinking greed overrode need). Once someone explained it to me, no worries, I corrected and moved on.

 

If someone does it three times, I vote kick, I have no tolerance for people who need on crap they don't need.

 

-Those who pull before the tank and either end up dying or making healer/tank die and eventually cause a wipe

 

Likewise, I'll explain the problem to such people. If it isn't causing a wipe, if it is on trash, I let it go. If we wipe, I explain it once about WHY we wiped and to please let the the tank go first.

 

If they do it again and we wipe again, vote kick.

 

---

 

The really sad thing is that often such people will say nothing at all, not even "hi", and won't reply to chat even when addressed directly. Right up until you vote kick them, then they have ALL KINDS of things to say.

[Heat-Wave]

and this pure whining is coming from THE MASTERS !

 

OF COURSE they perceive & experience everything as boooooooringly easy - BECAUSE they have MASTERED everything !

 

But - with their whining they put so much more pressure on Newbies because they FULLY expect

 

(slightly exaggerated to point out to hat I mean)

 

- Newbies having the same skill on day 1 like those who have played the game for 4 years

- Newbies being as skillful on day 1 as those who have played the game for 4 years

- Newbies being as fast in their reflexes on day 1 as those who have played the game for 4 years

- Newbies knowing EVERYTHING regarding in-game mechanics on day 1 LIKE those who have been playing the game for 4 years ...

 

^ To address this... When I see someone who doesn't appear to be "with it" to the level I'm used to, the first thing I do is inspect their achievements. Not to look at them in detail, just to see the total number.

 

Often times such players have less than 3k total points. This is a very new player. I will cut that player a lot more slack than if they have 15k points.

 

Often, I'll say, "hey, are you new to this game? would you like some pointers?"

 

Such a comment often gets a nice reply in return, such as "yea, I just started a few months ago, this is my first toon".

 

You know what? I can put up with a lot from such a player, I'll help them FAR more than I'll help someone with 15k or worse, 30k points WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

[Heat-Wave]

If one is elite, then they can shore up the bad player's shortfalls.

 

If one cannot, then one is not elite.

 

You cannot have it both ways.

 

There is a limit to how much you can cover...

 

In HM Blood Hunt, if you show up in 172 blues with no augments and you're the tank, there is nothing I can do as a healer to get you past the first boss. No amount of "elite" will cover that short fall.

[Warrgames]

I'm the problem in the game? You've really run out of things to say to defend yourself.

 

Sorry for your accident. But seriously? That's the excuse you give me so I feel bad for you or something?

 

I don't need to say anything more, play how you want. I'm just saying players would benefit if questions were answered rather than just ignored because you can't bother to type at the moment because you're so busy playing the game and you hurt your poor left hand, wooooow.

 

Yes you are clearly the problem with game. You continue talk down to someone that isn't playing the game as you think people should. You are no different than people talking down to those people that don't know how to play their character. Its not excuse its fact.. You said I didn't have to stop playing in order to reply and I simple explained why I have to stop playing in order to reply. Giving you a fact of why I have to stop what I am doing to reply.

 

LOL Run out of things to defend myself? I don't need to defend myself. I'm not belittling other players like you. I pay to play this game. I'm going to play it in a matter that I enjoy. Not in the matter you think everyone should play. Keep talking down to me and proving you are the problem.

[NoahRedden]

Yes you are clearly the problem with game. You continue talk down to someone that isn't playing the game as you think people should. You are no different than people talking down to those people that don't know how to play their character. Its not excuse its fact.. You said I didn't have to stop playing in order to reply and I simple explained why I have to stop playing in order to reply. Giving you a fact of why I have to stop what I am doing to reply.

 

LOL Run out of things to defend myself? I don't need to defend myself. I'm not belittling other players like you. I pay to play this game. I'm going to play it in a matter that I enjoy. Not in the matter you think everyone should play. Keep talking down to me and proving you are the problem.

 

I'm not telling you how to play your game, like I said before, "play how you want"

 

Giving people some respect in game is not a play style it's just called common sense and human decency to other human beings.

 

And you do type quite a lot for being limited to one hand. And your replies are very fast.....

Edited July 19, 2015 by NoahRedden

[GalacticStarfigh]

QFT.

You will be hard pressed to find games now a days that carter to HC MMO. There are few players looking for that type of game anymore.

 

When arriving to this conclusion, did you perhaps consider checking out the biggest, most popular MMO of TOR's generation? Hard mode raids is among the things latest expansion in WoW does very well. Traditionally, for 10 years providing difficult raids has always been at the very core of WoW's development.

 

Or howbout that other space MMO? Eve is notoriously difficult to learn and master. It has lived a very long, healthy life as well. TOR has stopped dropping sub numbers ages ago.. but like as not the have been pretty comparable with Eve.

 

You forget who the real niche here is.

 

All of the above, and your remark while at it, are bit questionable of course. Nobody is asking for a 'HC MMO' as such. Is difficulty as a concept truly so alien that simple mention of it turns TOR into a " hc mmo"

[Warrgames]

I'm not telling you how to play your game, like I said before, "play how you want"

 

Giving people some respect in game is not a play style it's just called common sense and human decency to other human beings.

 

And you do type quite a lot for being limited to one hand. And your replies are very fast.....

 

There is 14 mins between the time you post and I replied. There are 148 words in my reply. Roughly 15 words a min. To be consider a novice typist you need 40 wpm. If you it makes you feel better about yourself to think I am lying go for it. Mind over matter. I don't mind what you think about me because you don't matter.

 

Since giving people respect is common sense; why don't show me any respect? Why do you call me rude, tell me I'm the problem with game. Mock my injury. Sounds like you like to preach but no follow what you preach.

 

As much fun as it has been talking to you. RL calling and I have to go.

[Nvassea]

-Snip-

-Snip-

Guys, You are probably not going to see eye to eye here. You both have a different opinion, which is fine, but there are a few comments that are stepping over the line of discussion. You both have your reasons for your opinions, and I get that, but I think it's best if you two agree to disagree lest this spiral downwards really fast. Okay?

Edited July 19, 2015 by Nvassea
Missed a word D:

[NoahRedden]

There is 14 mins between the time you post and I replied. There are 148 words in my reply. Roughly 15 words a min. To be consider a novice typist you need 40 wpm. If you it makes you feel better about yourself to think I am lying go for it. Mind over matter. I don't mind what you think about me because you don't matter.

 

Since giving people respect is common sense; why don't show me any respect? Why do you call me rude, tell me I'm the problem with game. Mock my injury. Sounds like you like to preach but no follow what you preach.

 

As much fun as it has been talking to you. RL calling and I have to go.

 

Ya you're boring me. I'm gonna watch The Little Couple now.

[GalacticStarfigh]

The game market has changed over the years, as has the gaming population in general.

 

 

I'm 40 years old, I grew up in the 80's playing the NES, which had some truly hard games. Moving on to the SNES, then PlayStation, the games got easier over the years. Now my kids have a PS4 and a Wii U, and frankly almost nothing on them is that hard. One of their current favorites is LEGO Marvel Super Heroes. Honestly, a really cool and fun game, but you can't lose. You get unlimited lives, progress is always saved along the way, you get unlimited tries, and the fun is in playing with the various characters and seeing the levels, rather than the actual difficulty.

 

I work for a living, I have a family, I'm busy, so when I sit down to play a game, I don't want it to be launch-version Ultima Online hard. I want to be entertained and to see a story and have some fun with other people. There are millions of people in my demographic who grew up with games, who now have careers, families, and most importantly... money to pay for all this... but what we don't want is uber hard challenges.

 

TL;DR: Millions of players in 2015 want to FEEL challenged without actually BEING challenged. It is a fine line, but it is more "interactive movie" than "hard core MMO" these days.

 

.

I think " grown" is more appropriate than " changed".

 

Regardless of how young or old one is, playing video games usually means you have some quality time to spend/waste. (depending how you wanna look at it;p) Only qualifier here is what counts as quality time, what gives you them thrills. I enjoy learning to play a game, overcoming challenges and noticing I've gotten better in playing it. It is fun to me. Somebody else enjoys listening recorded dialogue of Jennifer Hale telling playerchar how awesome playerchar is. In my books, these differences are mostly disconnected from something like how busy you are or aren't. If you have time to waste on video games, you have time to waste on video games. Simple as that. I don't see the point or weight in " well, with this little time I have, at least I want to spend it by having fun!" type of an implication. This is what everybody does. Just that what is fun differs.

 

Biggest console exclusive on that PS4 your kid has is of quite notorious difficulty. (Bloodbrone)

 

 

 

TL;DR: Millions of players in 2015 want to FEEL challenged without actually BEING challenged. It is a fine line, but it is more "interactive movie" than "hard core MMO" these days.

 

These forums make a very good echo chamber and It is easy to forget who the niche here really is.

Every single one of the top-3 most played PC games are all competitive multiplayer games where more or less infinite measure of difficulty is very much available. Biggest MMORPG ever has always had extremely demanding PvE content for demanding people. Eve Online, which is quite comparable to TOR in terms of popularity, has always had it's very demanding learning curve and harsh sandbox filled with rusty nails and broken glass. People love it well.

 

I take some comfort from knowledge that people who enjoy video games still want to...play a game when playing games. Most do not want an interactive movie that lies to them about challenge that isn't there.

Edited July 19, 2015 by GalacticStarfigh

[Heat-Wave]

However, as the game is right now, there is very little excuse for not having a full set of Ziost/186 comm gear along with blue/purple crafted relics very soon after you ding 60. The gear is practically free. Go get it.

 

^ This right here is the key issue, IMHO...

 

I don't mind when someone's skill level isn't up to max, when someone is a bit slower or perhaps not as good with rotations, on a new toon, or doesn't play as often.

 

I get all that, I'll work with that...

 

What I have no tolerance for are people who show up to content without the proper gear. You either don't know or are lazy. I can help with the "I don't know part", but I find most people don't want to hear it, but I can't help the lazy part.

 

If you're in 172 blues, or worse, 162/168, don't queue for 60 HM FP. Do the tactical and 55 HM, they get you piles and piles of elite comms, and while 192 comm gear is kinda crappy, it is plenty for HM 60 FP and SM OPS. Take the money you get from doing lots of those, stop buying fancy mounts and decos until you've gotten augmented, then you're ready.

 

What is annoying is when someone says "I can't afford to augment", while riding a rancor.

[Warrgames]

When arriving to this conclusion, did you perhaps consider checking out the biggest, most popular MMO of TOR's generation? Hard mode raids is among the things latest expansion in WoW does very well. Traditionally, for 10 years providing difficult raids has always been at the very core of WoW's development.

 

Or howbout that other space MMO? Eve is notoriously difficult to learn and master. It has lived a very long, healthy life as well. TOR has stopped dropping sub numbers ages ago.. but like as not the have been pretty comparable with Eve.

 

You forget who the real niche here is.

 

All of the above, and your remark while at it, are bit questionable of course. Nobody is asking for a 'HC MMO' as such. Is difficulty as a concept truly so alien that simple mention of it turns TOR into a " hc mmo"

 

I don't know if I would call WoW raids as a HC event anymore. They have gotten easier with ever expansions. I quit after the goblin expansion so they may have changed since than. When I left it took no time to get HM raids on farm not compared to the time at launch.

 

Isn't Eve a flight sim mmo? Where its all about the ship you fly?

[Jaick]

Because they're low life scum sucking pieces of trash that takes a game way to seriously and should probably not be playing it in the first place, obviously their lives are in such disarray that they have take it out on some poor sob for hitting the wrong button or maybe is having lag that they can't control.

[Heat-Wave]

When arriving to this conclusion, did you perhaps consider checking out the biggest, most popular MMO of TOR's generation? Hard mode raids is among the things latest expansion in WoW does very well. Traditionally, for 10 years providing difficult raids has always been at the very core of WoW's development.

 

I haven't played WoW in a very long time, but my understanding is that it too has gone mostly care bear... And I don't say that in a negative way, just what it is.

 

Sure, they have HM stuff, SWTOR still does, try ToS in 16m HM and tell me if SWTOR doesn't have hard content.

 

But the reality is few people ever do such stuff. What does the bulk of the player base really do? Or better yet, where does the money come from?

 

Regarding EVE Online, that is another beast all together, and it will continue and thrive as an inexpensive to develop niche MMO. There is a market for that, but I don't think there is a market for 10 million paying subs for that.

 

SWTOR was meant to have millions of subs, it did, for 3 months, then it fell off... Not enough to do and not enough spit and polish... Some of that has been fixed, but very unevenly over the years... To be frank, the CM likely saved the game, we might not even HAVE SWTOR to play without the CM today.

[Heat-Wave]

I think " grown" is more appropriate than " changed".

 

True, the game market is now much larger than hollywood is, in fact it has become truly huge in scope and value.

 

As much as some people who call themselves "gamers" like to make fun of Farmville and Candy Crush, the reality is more money goes into those games than goes into these type of games.

 

The app store on the iPhone/iPad alone is over $10 billion a year:

 

https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2015/01/08App-Store-Rings-in-2015-with-New-Records.html

 

The first week in January, a week that shouldn't have a lot of spending going on, did half a billion dollars... just in the app store... Holy crap, why invest $200 million making SWTOR when so many people will spent SO MUCH MONEY on Candy Crush and the like?

 

Biggest console exclusive on that PS4 your kid has is of quite notorious difficulty. (Bloodbrone)

 

Fair enough, like I've said, there is still a market for such games. However consider that Bloodbrone has so far sold about 1 million copies, which is good... LEGO Marvel Super Heroes has sold almost 8 million copies... Granted, that is across multiple systems, but it still has done more than 1 million on the PS4 alone...

 

http://www.destructoid.com/bloodborne-sells-over-one-million-sony-has-announced-290456.phtml

 

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=lego+marvel+super+heroes&publisher=&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200

 

Every single one of the top-3 most played PC games are all competitive multiplayer games where more or less infinite measure of difficulty is very much available. Biggest MMORPG ever has always had extremely demanding PvE content for demanding people. Eve Online, which is quite comparable to TOR in terms of popularity, has always had it's very demanding learning curve and harsh sandbox filled with rusty nails and broken glass. People love it well.

 

Does "most played" actually mean anything? I would think most revenue would mean more, but then I do tend to be more business focused than most.

 

EVE Online has a market, but I don't know that it is much bigger than that. I could be wrong, but EVE doesn't appeal to me, way too much work and people who have nothing better to do will always dominate such games.

[Jeweledleah]

I don't know if I would call WoW raids as a HC event anymore. They have gotten easier with ever expansions. I quit after the goblin expansion so they may have changed since than. When I left it took no time to get HM raids on farm not compared to the time at launch.

 

Isn't Eve a flight sim mmo? Where its all about the ship you fly?

 

it took almost 500 pulls for the best guild in a world to kill final boss of the expansion on hardest difficulty. according to MMO champion, so far they are the only ones to have done so.

 

they haven't gotten easier (though they HAVE gotten more gimmicky). they just acquired more difficulties, players have gotten to know most if not all Blizzard's tricks and designing encounters with addons in mind is a PITA (how do you make content challenging enough so that all the various addons don't make it too easy for the hardcore, all the while keeping it manageable for the casuals? and people wonder why I'm so against addons in SWTOR)

 

WoW is a weird beast right now. it tries to be everything for everyone and Blizzard always understood that casual friendly games tend to bring in more money as they have larger target audience. but they are still trying to keep some challenge in.... it just seems like their current designers are asian MMO fans or something, becasue majority of the challenge outside of mythic raids seems to consist of grinding on top of more grinding. and I do mean ACTUAL grinding, not what SWTOR players call grinding.

 

as for Eve - its spreadsheets in space. corporate pvp and all

[well]

Usually it's more about being kicked and then berated... I always tell people if you don't know the fight, say so now, and no you will not be kicked.

 

In some cases but you see it on General chat a lot or in PVP. Someone ask something and they gets jumped on by some yutts. I always get a kick when people complain about not enough folks in Group finder or pvp.

[Warrgames]

it took almost 500 pulls for the best guild in a world to kill final boss of the expansion on hardest difficulty. according to MMO champion, so far they are the only ones to have done so.

 

they haven't gotten easier (though they HAVE gotten more gimmicky). they just acquired more difficulties, players have gotten to know most if not all Blizzard's tricks and designing encounters with addons in mind is a PITA (how do you make content challenging enough so that all the various addons don't make it too easy for the hardcore, all the while keeping it manageable for the casuals? and people wonder why I'm so against addons in SWTOR)

 

WoW is a weird beast right now. it tries to be everything for everyone and Blizzard always understood that casual friendly games tend to bring in more money as they have larger target audience. but they are still trying to keep some challenge in.... it just seems like their current designers are asian MMO fans or something, becasue majority of the challenge outside of mythic raids seems to consist of grinding on top of more grinding. and I do mean ACTUAL grinding, not what SWTOR players call grinding.

 

as for Eve - its spreadsheets in space. corporate pvp and all

 

Sound like they have kicked it up a notch. When I left it was no where near 500 pulls to down a boss of the top tier raid groups. What is Mythic mode?

[Makillda]

I don't think so. Not anymore.

 

I just got my trooper past level 10 the other night and was able to chose commando without going to the Fleet. The breadcrumb that takes you to your advanced trainer doesn't exist anymore. Or, better said, doesn't automatically trigger anymore. And, AFAIR, those breadcrumbs never took you to the skill mentor who is on a different cubby then the advanced skill trainers.

 

I also don't recall anything 'teaching' you to go to Interfleet, however, I do think the green arrows for quests do lead the way. But, again, now that 12x XP and Kuat killed off most of the leveling FPs, how would you ever learn that anyway?

 

The breadcrumb to your advanced trainer is still there. You aren't prompted to see him anymore but the quest giver is still there.

 

The interfleet transport is noted by the green arrows when you pick up the flashpoint quests to the various instances. I did say that nobody clicks on the little triangles anymore but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Halinalle]

Korriban and Blood Hunt are two very different experiences. I wouldn't try Blood Hunt without everyone being augmented. Yes, I'm sure it can be done without it, but I simply don't want to have to wipe 6 times in the attempt and fight the game every step of the way.

 

Remember this video?

 

Some of them are in 172s with 162 (yes, Black Market) implants/earpieces. Only one has set bonus (174). Only one has augments. And yes, that's two most difficult FPs currently in the game.

[Darturion]

I spent the money to get augmented, so can you. If you want to do HM 60 FP and operations, at this point in the expack cycle, get augmented. If you don't, then we return back to the "cheap or lazy" thing.

 

You spent the money and time.

 

Not everyone has that kind of time.

[Darturion]

There is a limit to how much you can cover...

 

In HM Blood Hunt, if you show up in 172 blues with no augments and you're the tank, there is nothing I can do as a healer to get you past the first boss. No amount of "elite" will cover that short fall.

 

Is that so ?

 

Then how elite are you really? Not at all.

[Darturion]

I haven't played WoW in a very long time, but my understanding is that it too has gone mostly care bear... And I don't say that in a negative way, just what it is.

 

Sure, they have HM stuff, SWTOR still does, try ToS in 16m HM and tell me if SWTOR doesn't have hard content.

 

But the reality is few people ever do such stuff. What does the bulk of the player base really do? Or better yet, where does the money come from?

 

Regarding EVE Online, that is another beast all together, and it will continue and thrive as an inexpensive to develop niche MMO. There is a market for that, but I don't think there is a market for 10 million paying subs for that.

 

SWTOR was meant to have millions of subs, it did, for 3 months, then it fell off... Not enough to do and not enough spit and polish... Some of that has been fixed, but very unevenly over the years... To be frank, the CM likely saved the game, we might not even HAVE SWTOR to play without the CM today.

 

You are correct, the vast majority of WoW Players use the LFR tool to raid. Few guilds do the Hard stuff.

 

Hard Modes I think one (even casual gamers) should expect some requirements but then... if you can queue for it supposedly the Devs say you're geared for it. This is my main point about it all. The Developers are telling everyone it can be done with this base line gear level.

 

The beginning surge SWTOR saw is the same surge GW2 saw, WoW sees on their expansions, RIFT, Wildstar, (which actually is said by many people (Magazines, players, etc) as having the hardest raids), FFXI (old and reborn) etc. It's strange how people see this as a "flop" rather than something that's normal.