Why the hate for players who do not know how to play?

[Rafaman]

im sorry not wanting to teach people and wanting to play the game makes me a jerk?

 

No. Kicking them because it's easier makes you a jerk. That's what you were advocating right?

 

You are one of the ones arguing that the shift to story impacts the aspects of the game that make it an MMO right? But at the same time you take an antisocial stance when a newbie needs help. On those occasions, you seem to forget that this is an MMO and that a larger community of players can enjoy and benefit from group content if you simply take a few moments to explain a boss fight.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Rafaman

[Zharik]

and if a kid i didnt know stood up in front of me at a movie and asked me to help him with his math homework and i told him "not right now", that makes me a jerk? i was slinging insults and hate?

 

Terrible analogy. Fellow moviegoer expectations = be quiet and sit down (and turn off your cell phone!) : MMO grouping expectations = play nice, do your job (role) and strive toward the goal (completing the FP/whatever and get a cookie)

 

While you weren't "slinging insults and hate" exactly, you supported kicking a player for under-performing. Then you said it isn't your job to teach them how to play. Do you act like this with people you talk to in real life?

[Psychopyro]

Actually I don't so much hate people that don't know how to play. They actually don't bother me that much. However there are the ones that refuse to learn and listen. Those are the ones that make me mad.

 

Same for people who refuse to show people how to do stuff. Nothing more aggravating then seeing LFM for whatever raid group finder, must be fully geared and know fights. Like ***? You can't take 5 min to explain a fight. Or use ops chat to call out direction?

[Pagy]

Yeah, okay, now I'm leaning towards the likelihood of you being a jerk. That's an asinine comparison.

you're right, because there's more value in teaching the child some math than teaching him how to heal in a video game, but the example is exactly analogous.

 

im busy playing a game

im busy watching a movie

 

someone needs to be taught something

there is value in teaching them

 

i just dont want to and would rather watch the movie or play the game. im not insulting them, or attacking them. i just dont want to.

[NoahRedden]

 

i just dont want to and would rather watch the movie or play the game. im not insulting them, or attacking them. i just dont want to.

 

 

Wow....

 

Didn't someone have to teach you the game? You are the laziest person. That is being a jerk.

 

You're like the type of person if someone had asked you to do a favor you would just say "No, I don't want to" Is that how you treat people in real life, I hope not. And if not, they why treat people like that in game?

Edited July 19, 2015 by NoahRedden

[Pagy]

I'm talking about the things you said before. Like kicking a player from the group would be easier to do rather than teaching them or giving them tips to use in the future. Kicking them without a word is rude.

why is it rude? There's a comment box, i can put the reason in there.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

you're right, because there's more value in teaching the child some math than teaching him how to heal in a video game, but the example is exactly analogous.

 

im busy playing a game

im busy watching a movie

 

someone needs to be taught something

there is value in teaching them

 

i just dont want to and would rather watch the movie or play the game. im not insulting them, or attacking them. i just dont want to.

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever analogous about not wanting to teach someone how to play some aspect of a video game (which you are totally justified in not doing if you don't want to) and that off the wall analogy about some idiot standing up in front of your chair while your in a movie theater turning to you and asking "Can you help me with my math homework?" In your beyond the pale analogy, not only would you be justified in telling said person that you were not willing to help them with their math homework, I'd argue you might very well be justified in slapping the crap outta them for such an insane request in that venue!

Edited July 19, 2015 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Pagy]

Wow....

 

Didn't someone have to teach you the game? You are the laziest person. That is being a jerk.

no, no one taught me how to play. i started on release day and learned.

 

and if i wanted to learn something i sought out the resources myself outside of the game.

You're like the type of person if someone had asked you a favor you would just say "No, I don't want to"

if im busy doing something else, then it's rude to interrupt someone. a favor isn't something you're entitled to because you asked a stranger for something.

 

again im not spitting in their face for asking for help, but if i dont want to, that doesnt make me a jerk.

 

also your personal attacks are inappropriate

Edited July 19, 2015 by Pagy

[NoahRedden]

no, no one taught me how to play. i started on release day and learned.

 

and if i wanted to learn something i sought out the resources myself outside of the game.

if im busy doing something else, then it's rude to interrupt someone. a favor isn't something you're entitled to because you asked a stranger for something.

 

again im not spitting in their face for asking for help, but if i dont want to, that doesnt make me a jerk.

 

also your personal attacks are inappropriate

 

Your idea of being a jerk is by just insulting someone or spitting in their face. That's not how it goes.

 

And that wasn't a personal attack. It was a good comparison to your real life. If you don't treat people like that in real life, then why in game?

Edited July 19, 2015 by NoahRedden

[Jeweledleah]

and if a kid i didnt know stood up in front of me at a movie and asked me to help him with his math homework and i told him "not right now", that makes me a jerk?

 

not right now is a perfectly normal response.

 

"get away from me and go bother someone else, you little twerp" is a little closer to what OP is likely talking about

 

 

i was slinging insults and hate?

 

didn't say you were. just pointed out that there is a difference between not wanting to teach and actively being a jerk.

 

your defensiveness is interesting though.

 

 

in the end - this IS a game and we play it to have fun and part of that can be finding a group of people you actualy have fun playing with. random groups though are "like a box of chocolates. you never know what you are going to get" unlike a box of chocolates, that are inanimate objects so spitting one out doesn't really hurt anyone, or makes subsequent boxes of chocolate taste worse - video game consists of people. and its community tone is set by people already playing it.

 

a huge part of both retaining AND getting new players into the game, especially its group modes? is how existing players treat newbies. that hopeless noob today? could have been awesome raider of tomorrow, the kind we all want to have in our groups... if only they were pointed in a right direction, instead of being belittled.

 

to quote yet another movie (I do love my movie quotes) we create our own demons.

 

P.S. when I first started playing MMO's I was complete rubbish (SWTOR was not my first MMO, incidentally). just awful. and I didn't know there were resources I could tap. from general gaming experience, I knew about officially published guides but they tell you very little of what you actualy need to know in how to play various classes or what different roles entail. I was lucky enough to have seen discussions in general where people pointed out better resources. but without those starting points? honestly.. I have no idea what sort of player I would have been today, or even if I continued to play MMOs.

 

I fell in love with raiding because my first raid group was awesome. not bleeding edge progression raiders awesome, but supportive and willing to learn together awesome. maybe. maybe some people can learn completely on their own in a vacuum. they are not your average player though, they are not the bulk of people that play MMO's.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Jeweledleah

[Psychopyro]

i just dont want to.

 

If you are in the GF Queue, that is the price you pay. If you want a group that knows what they are doing, form one. There is no reason to be a jerk to other people, or to be that lazy and expect the group to know everything and carry you.

[Pagy]

Terrible analogy. Fellow moviegoer expectations = be quiet and sit down (and turn off your cell phone!) : MMO grouping expectations = play nice, do your job (role) and strive toward the goal (completing the FP/whatever and get a cookie)

and if said player can't fulfil their role or contribute towards the goal? why am i being penalized for their inexperience? I can choose to help or not, i dont see why either choice makes one a jerk or a hero. it's just a personal choice.

While you weren't "slinging insults and hate" exactly, you supported kicking a player for under-performing. Then you said it isn't your job to teach them how to play. Do you act like this with people you talk to in real life?

of course it should be ok to remove a player for underperforming...i've had to fire people in real life too.

 

but this is a video game, this is my leisure time. forgive me if i dont enjoy the same things you enjoy and want to play the way i want to. apparently how i play videogames defines me as a person to you people.

[Pagy]

If you are in the GF Queue, that is the price you pay. If you want a group that knows what they are doing, form one. There is no reason to be a jerk to other people, or to be that lazy and expect the group to know everything and carry you.

the price i pay? it would be more appropriate to say "the risk i take"

 

sorry no, i'm not married to the group because it was groupfinder. if the vote to kick passes then it wasnt a unilateral decision. if it doesnt pass and i choose, i can remove myself from a situation i no longer want to be in.

 

the price i pay is a gf lockout.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

no, no one taught me how to play. i started on release day and learned.

 

and if i wanted to learn something i sought out the resources myself outside of the game.

if im busy doing something else, then it's rude to interrupt someone. a favor isn't something you're entitled to because you asked a stranger for something.

 

again im not spitting in their face for asking for help, but if i dont want to, that doesnt make me a jerk.

 

also your personal attacks are inappropriate

 

"no, no one taught me how to play. i started on release day and learned. "

 

I'm calling bull **** on this one.

 

I don't believe that you never asked nor did anyone ever teach you some mechanics of a fight, or the best way to get some more dps. or a better way to augment your tank, or make credits or any number of a zillion things that come up in an MMO of this magnitude. Every single FP, every Operation, every mechanic, you learned all on your own? You never asked a question of anyone about any aspect of the game? BS.

 

I'm an HM End Game progression raider. I ask questions everyday, people teach me things I didn't know all the time.

 

P.S. My apologies for my inappropriate personal insults. Guess I'm just a jerk.

Edited July 19, 2015 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Pagy]

"no, no one taught me how to play. i started on release day and learned. "

 

I'm calling bull **** on this one.

 

I don't believe that you never asked nor did anyone ever teach you some mechanics of a fight, or the best way to get some more dps. or a better way to augment your tank, or make credits or any number of a zillion things that come up in an MMO of this magnitude. Every single FP, every Operation, every mechanic, you learned all on your own? You never asked a question of anyone about any aspect of the game? BS.

 

I'm an HM End Game progression raider. I ask questions everyday, people teach me things I didn't know all the time.

 

P.S. My apologies for my inappropriate personal insults. Guess I'm just a jerk.

if y ou would take the time to read my post, i clearly stated: "and if i wanted to learn something i sought out the resources myself outside of the game."

 

this invalidates most of your reply.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

if y ou would take the time to read my post, i clearly stated: "and if i wanted to learn something i sought out the resources myself outside of the game."

 

this invalidates most of your reply.

 

Actually, near as I can tell, it completely validates my point and here is why. You stated that if you wanted to learn something you went outside the game and sought out the resources. Not Dulfy, not reddit, , no guides, cover every aspect of the game in such minute detail that every possible question you could ever have could be found outside the game in some resource. And as a noob yourself when you were one, which we all were at one point, you wouldn't have even known dulfy existed (or any of the other outside game resources) through osmosis. This would also demonstrait that you are a relatively new player in the scope of things, because were you not, when your were doing these older Operations and FPS you couldn't have found the answers to every minute detail of any questions you may have had because they did not yet exist in the form the do today.

 

You can find many answers to many questions in outside resources. You can read every guide there is on Ravagers, on ToS, on the differences in the mechanics between HM and SM and you could commit that knowledge to your game, you'd still have a ton of questions and confusion cause not everything goes like it says it does in guides.

 

I'll state it plainly as a question to you than.

 

Are you saying, you have never, ever, at any point in all your time playing SWTOR, ever asked a question of someone, been confused about something, nor were ever taught a single thing by anyone in the game at any point?

[Pagy]

Actually, near as I can tell, it completely validates my point and here is why. You stated that if you wanted to learn something you went outside the game and sought out the resources. Not Dulfy, not reddit, , no guides, cover every aspect of the game in such minute detail that every possible question you could ever have could be found outside the game in some resource.

they did for me. between dulfy, other guides, this forum, im not sure why you'll telling me why my experience is somehow false. it's a bit odd.

And as a noob yourself when you were one, which we all were at one point, you wouldn't have even known dulfy existed (or any of the other outside game resources) through osmosis.

links from forums, google...?

 

This would also demonstrait that you are a relatively new player in the scope of things, because were you not, when your were doing these older Operations and FPS you couldn't have found the answers to every minute detail of any questions you may have had because they did not yet exist in the form the do today.

you realize people post youtube videos and guids, right?

 

You can find many answers to many questions in outside resources. You can read every guide there is on Ravagers, on ToS, on the differences in the mechanics between HM and SM and you could commit that knowledge to your game, you'd still have a ton of questions and confusion cause not everything goes like it says it does in guides.

or maybe you just read a guide or watch a video then try it as a group...? there's not much to teach when you're all going in their when it's released.

Are you saying, you have never, ever, at any point in all your time playing SWTOR, ever asked a question of someone, been confused about something, nor were ever taught a single thing by anyone in the game at any point?

that's a bit generalized.

did i ever approach a strangers in the middle of playing the game to teach me something? no.

[Halinalle]

Golden rule:

"One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself"

 

So, if you know the fight then why not write a few lines to group chat?

If you see a person struggling with class/discipline you know back and forth why not give an advice?

 

Yes, I know:

- there are players who refuse to learn

- there are players who abuse this

 

I've been kicked from group because I don't tolerate elitism in groups. Players who yell and insult others are usually the ones that cause the problems.

 

To new players:

"Hello. My first time in HM version." at the beginning goes a long way. Even when I'm not the most helpful person in group I still try to say something and point out what went wrong or what should be done better if I notice anything. There's always someone who is ready to write the basics compared to SM. It will also help if you mention that you know SM version so explanation doesn't have to be that long.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Halinalle

[Icestar]

I always say "Never let anyone else play the game for you, have fun and enjoy your playstyle" when someone asks me about the optimal specc or what I think they should play.

[Darka]

My issue is not with those who cannot "play" after all we all started somewhere,

its more when someone who doesnt know something doesnt ask, especially when asked if we know the fight

[well]

My issue is not with those who cannot "play" after all we all started somewhere,

its more when someone who doesnt know something doesnt ask, especially when asked if we know the fight

 

That is probably due to some little princesses that jump on people who ask questions.

[Psychopyro]

That is probably due to some little princesses that jump on people who ask questions.

 

Usually it's more about being kicked and then berated... I always tell people if you don't know the fight, say so now, and no you will not be kicked.

[Heat-Wave]

My issue is not with those who cannot "play" after all we all started somewhere,

its more when someone who doesnt know something doesnt ask, especially when asked if we know the fight

 

^ This...

 

Frankly, I'm all for teaching people, but so many people don't actually want to learn...

 

Tonight I kicked two sents from two different GF FP. Why? They kept force leaping into fights ahead of the tank. After being asked not to. Never a word, wouldn't reply to anything typed in chat.

 

Once vote kicked, then they started talking... "what the *#&$ is wrong with you, I'm just playing the game", and that nonsense.

 

It is so easy here to say "oh, why don't you just teach people". In my experience, few people in GF want to be taught anything.

[Heat-Wave]

As a further follow up...

 

Poor performance generally won't get a vote kick from me, unless it is simply due to someone being out of their league. I've seen this happen a few times in 60 HM FP, some people just aren't ready for it and a few min of explanation isn't going to be enough.

 

Actually had this problem with a healer today, he was geared ok, but kept trying to dps and split his time between heals and dps. We were in Battle of Rishi HM, that needs a proper healer and he wasn't it.

 

He was asked to just focus on healing, then he admitted he really didn't know healing very well and was trying his best. To which I replied, "then you should start off by healing 55 HM FP, those are far more forgiving and will give you a chance to learn the rotations. 60 HM FP aren't the place to learn it.

 

To his credit, he wasn't upset, or did not appear so, when we kicked him. The downside is that we never got a replacement and disbanded, but it wouldn't have finished with him anyway so it was better to just end it.

[Heat-Wave]

Last follow up...

 

--- GEAR ---

 

This is worth putting in bold, so how is this:

 

GEAR MATTERS IN THIS GAME

 

Hopefully people can read that...

 

Look, I get that not everyone is in 192/198 token gear with 14 augments, but that doesn't mean you show up to a FP totally undergeared.

 

I can't tell you how many times HM 60 pops and someone is just not geared for it. No amount of skill will make up for having 146 purple, 148 blue, or 162 gear in a 60 HM FP.

 

Even 172 blues aren't enough, and if you don't have any augments and show up with 38k health, as someone did tonight, then one of two things is true:

 

1. You don't know what you're doing, in which case you don't belong in a 60 HM FP

2. You are lazy and want to be carried, in which case you don't belong in a 60 HM FP with ME

 

Take your pick

 

For what it is worth, I always tell them, "hey, thanks for coming, but I'm afraid you are not geared for this, you need to be in 186 basic comms gear at least, with a 186 main hand and a few augments, then come back and try a 60 HM FP again"

 

Sadly, I get nasty replies more often than I get nice ones. People just don't want to hear it I guess.

 

---

 

As a side note, for those few who actually do say, "so how do I get geared", I reply "there are excellent gearing guides on web sites like dulfy.net", take a look at those first. I figure if they really want to know, they'll take the time.