Who did my jedi knight kill?

[Senrie]

I get that but now humans are the ones who are the superior species in the empire.

 

You don't seem to get though that they don't consider themselves superior to purebloods. And they don't consider themselves superior to other races by virtue of being just human. They consider themselves superior because they're descended from sith. The difference between purebloods and imperial humans is only one of degree: neither are pure, they're both sith-human hybrds; purbloods just have enough "sith blood" for it to manifest visually.

 

Purebloods are dying out. That's the main reason humans have supplanted pureblood numbers in the power structure of the SIth Order. 300 years prior to SWTOR humans were still a minority on the Dark Council, as said in the Revan novel you mentioned. That novel also had a human seperatist group upset at perceived prejudice against humans.

 

Also where did the Darth who had a whole army of sith purebloods came from?

 

The Red Reaper.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Senrie

[adormitul]

You don't seem to get though that they don't consider themselves superior to purebloods. And they don't consider themselves superior to other races by virtue of being human. They consider themselves superior because they're descended from sith. The difference between purebloods and imperial humans is only one of degree: neither are pure, they're both sith-human hybrds; purbloods just have enough "sith blood" for it to manifest visually.

 

Purebloods are dying out. That's the main reason humans have supplanted pureblood numbers in the power structure of the SIth Order. 300 years prior to SWTOR humans were still a minority on the Dark Council, as said in the Revan novel you mentioned. That novel also had a human seperatist group upset at perceived prejudice against humans.

 

 

 

The Red Reaper.

 

Sucks to be them does it also means that humans have the dominant genes that most in the end become humans?

[CrutchCricket]

Sucks to be them does it also means that humans have the dominant genes that most in the end become humans?

Precisely. I hope people realize the so-called "purebloods" are actually human-Sith hybrids. As in the product of crossing the original Sith species with the exiled Jedi who ruled them. The original Sith species is long extinct by the time TOR takes place.

 

And for some official words on the matter:

 

"The Sith Empire typically believed that Sith purebloods and humans were the master races of the galaxy, and alien humanoids, while superior to non-humanoids are only fit to be slaves. The purebloods are seen as superior as they are biological descendants of the red skinned race native to Korriban, who fought off the Rakata. And humans due to the fact that the first Dark Jedi exiles to arrive on Korriban were human, including Ajunta Pall, the first Dark Lord of the Sith. While many Sith purebloods viewed humans as a 'lesser species', they admitted they were near equals. Unlike aliens, humans have no restrictions on their movements or the ranks they can reach in Imperial society. Many humans have risen to the highest ranks in the Imperial military, including Odile Vaiken, the first Imperial Grand Moff. And over the millennia many human Sith Lords have held seats on the Dark Council. Not all Sith purebloods were welcomed into the elite ranks. A pureblood with no force sensitivity was rare and considered an abomination. Unless the purebloods family was able or willing to gain them an easy administration position, these non-Force-sensitive purebloods were either killed or enslaved. "

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire_%28Post%E2%80%93Great_Hyperspace_War%29

[adormitul]

What about Zabraks are they also considered slaves by the sith empire? I know chiss are not because they are a military force that can give pause but the Zabraks who have a close connection to the force?

[Senrie]

Not to be annoying, but Wookiepedia isn't official. Most of that isn't wrong, but I think that line about why humans are considered superior misses the bigger point. Edited July 15, 2015 by Senrie

[Cythereal]

Go run The Foundry. Revan's plan is to kill absolutely everyone who has any Sith DNA at all, and according to HK that's something on the order of 97% of the entire Imperial population, even if very few show it physically.

[adormitul]

Not to be annoying, but Wookiepedia isn't official. Most of that isn't wrong, but I think that line about why humans are considered superior misses the bigger point.

 

That is because most sith are in the end human be them descended from true sith?

@Above if have a chiss he will say I am not sith but he will still be killed only because of being part of the sith empire.

Edited July 15, 2015 by adormitul

[Stinghen]

One thing is early game. The current point has seen the Emperor disappear, and the Empire in practice falling under the control of Darth Marr. After Chapter 3, the Empire is a different beast altogether. "Impure" Sith (as in non-Sith blooded members of the Sith Order) have had the time to prove their worth and their power, and ascend to positions of relevance, both in the Dark Council (like Darth Nox - maybe - and Darth Karrid who takes Hadra's place) and in general Imperial life (like that Cathar officer on Makeb and beyond).

 

The point is this: although the Empire has fewer and fewer Sith purebloods, and care less and less about blood purity, the Emperor himself is another matter. And his body is that of a pureblood Therefore, the Knight doesn't kill the Empy's true body.

[CrutchCricket]

What about Zabraks are they also considered slaves by the sith empire? I know chiss are not because they are a military force that can give pause but the Zabraks who have a close connection to the force?

Yes. My inquisitor is Zabrak (notDarthMaul actually) and he got some flak for being an alien. Of course judicious application of lightning made most of that go away. And by judicious I mean exorbitant:D

 

Ye olde racist Empire levels go as follows:

Humans, Sith Purebloods

Chiss

Humanoids

Everything else

 

Humanoids and below are typically slaves or worse. Few, if any rise above their station, and then only in times of need and only if they have the Force.

 

Not to be annoying, but Wookiepedia isn't official. Most of that isn't wrong, but I think that line about why humans are considered superior misses the bigger point.

Which is? Humans conquered the real Sith, every red-skinned face tentacled "pureblood" in TOR times has human genes, and even they are dying out. Even if they wanted to claim superiority sheer numbers laugh in their faces.

 

As for Wookiepedia, it's the largest and most accurate SW database we have and it's in pretty good shape for a wiki. They've earned their credibility. And not that "official" matters much now, thanks to the Disney Apocalypse.

 

The point is this: although the Empire has fewer and fewer Sith purebloods, and care less and less about blood purity, the Emperor himself is another matter. And his body is that of a pureblood Therefore, the Knight doesn't kill the Empy's true body.

The Emperor only cares about consuming all life in the galaxy or some other plan, apparently. Whatever that may be, I doubt it's to promote "purebloods" as the master race.

[Senrie]

Which is? Humans conquered the real Sith, every red-skinned face tentacled "pureblood" in TOR times has human genes, and even they are dying out. Even if they wanted to claim superiority sheer numbers laugh in their faces.

 

Oh, I didn't realize we "disagreed" on the fact that sith are the masterest of races in the Empire. First of all, every imperial human also has sith heritage. That was the bigger point. The article says purebloods are considered superior because they're biological descendants of the original sith species, and says humans are superior because the Exiles were human. But more to the point and what it neglects to mention, imperial humans are considered superior because they also are biological descendants of the original sith species. As I said earlier, they're both sith-human hybrids.

 

As far as "numbers" go, I don't know what point you're trying to make here. Purebloods do claim superiority and they're acknowledged as such by the Empire. Every single time blood purity is mentioned by imperials in TOR it's referring to sith blood. If you think they meant human you're very much mistaken.

 

I'm just going to quote a few things here:

 

"Unlike the humans that made up the bulk of the Empire’s population, the Sith species were all blessed with the power of the Force to varying degrees. It marked them as the elite; it elevated them above the lower ranks of Imperial society." — The Revan novel talking about purebloods(reminder that it was ~300 years before TOR)

 

"So little Sith blood in all of the Academy... and only one of the overseers wears the red marks." — Lord Abaron who was tasked with ascertaining the purity of the Sith Academy

 

"This is real sith strength. [...] Look on him. No connections left in the world but pure sith blood." — Harkun regarding Ffon

 

"For a brief time, Sith blood was seen as a sign of weakness–but the modern Empire believes purity of heritage carries the strength of the Force." — Pureblood codex

 

"There are carvings of the Massassi in the Heritage Museum in Kaas City. Their savagery is great, but their blood is far purer than mine." — Quinn upon encountering the Massassi, who also happen to be more pure than purebloods by the way

 

As for Wookiepedia, it's the largest and most accurate SW database we have and it's in pretty good shape for a wiki. They've earned their credibility. And not that "official" matters much now, thanks to the Disney Apocalypse.

 

I didn't question its accuracy or credibility, it was just that linking a fan wiki and calling it official is no way to settle a debate. And that's when I thought you agreed with me and were using it to support my argument. Which it definitely does, by the way.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Senrie

[CrutchCricket]

I don't disagree that this sentiment exists. I just find it laughable. The original Sith had one accomplishment of note- Adas' defiance of the Rakata. Otherwise they folded like a house of cheap cards when the Dark Jedi conquered them and their greatest accomplishments after that are due to primarily to their influence. Jedi Exile values replaced Sith values, Jedi Exile initiative created the hybrids which resulted in every Dark Lord worth mentioning: Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh and so on (and that title itself references the original Dark Jedi conquerors, not the Sith kings of old), and it's Jedi Exile genes that are winning the genetic contest.

 

The Sith heritage and bloodlines they prize so heavily are not worthy because of the Sith component, they're worthy because of the Exile component. Even if they don't realize it. The thing is, no one differentiates between the original Sith, the hybrids or the Dark Jedi anymore, and haven't since before the Great Hyperspace War. They're all called Sith now. But they credit the inferior component, not the superior one.

 

As for "officialness", it's relative. Wookiepedia is the closest we're going to get. Wikis by their nature are user-edited so it'll never be 100% iron-clad. But like I said, they're pretty good with keeping it accurate and well-researched so I have no issues considering it an authority on the lore unless it's specifically shown to contradict original source material.

[Cythereal]

As TOR goes, again look to the game's own statement: about 97% of the entire Imperial population, human and alien, has at least some degree of Sith genetic ancestry.

[Stinghen]

I don't disagree that this sentiment exists. I just find it laughable. The original Sith had one accomplishment of note- Adas' defiance of the Rakata. Otherwise they folded like a house of cheap cards when the Dark Jedi conquered them and their greatest accomplishments after that are due to primarily to their influence. Jedi Exile values replaced Sith values, Jedi Exile initiative created the hybrids which resulted in every Dark Lord worth mentioning: Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh and so on (and that title itself references the original Dark Jedi conquerors, not the Sith kings of old), and it's Jedi Exile genes that are winning the genetic contest.

 

So they shouldn't feel racially superior because their race "didn't have many accomplishments of note"? Perhaps if it were otherwise their racism would be justified somehow?

 

The Sith heritage and bloodlines they prize so heavily are not worthy because of the Sith component, they're worthy because of the Exile component. Even if they don't realize it. The thing is, no one differentiates between the original Sith, the hybrids or the Dark Jedi anymore, and haven't since before the Great Hyperspace War. They're all called Sith now. But they credit the inferior component, not the superior one.

 

Wrong. Compare Ludo Kressh to Naga Sadow. They are clearly of different species. True, BW lazily didn't put some actual purebloods (and I say lazily because there's one basic model for the Sith purebloods and that's it; and I do realise the game's so huge that calling not putting more Sith models in the game laziness is idiotic xD), and it might be justified because TOR takes place 1400 years after the time of Sadow and Kressh. But by 5000 BBY (or 1400 BTC) there are clearly two dominant species: the hybrids and the purebloods.

 

Btw, "inferior", "superior", does not matter. Sadow didn't win his war with Kressh because he had "superior genetics", he won it because he seduced more Sith Lords to his cause (cause of war) than Kressh did.

 

And "Dark Jedi" are clearly inferior in capabilities than Sith: the Dark Jedi exiles absorbed many rituals that were commonplace amongst the Sith, but unknown to Jedi previously. Besides, if the original Dark Jedi felt racially superior to Sith, why would they modify the Sith genetics so they could breed into the Sith species, rather than start a smaller colony of "racially superior beings"?

 

This whole "heritage" nonsense started, I think, after the time of Ajunta Pall and his pals. Sithies thought that, since they had species traits that speak of descendancy to the Jen'jidai conquerors, that would set you apart, when the entire population was comprised of red-skinned individuals. After human populations were absorbed into the Empire, the most telling feature that spoke of heritage (to that classical Sith Empire that existed in the past, deemed superior) shifted into, instead of human traits in a Sith population, Sith traits in a human population.

 

I do like this discussion. But I'd like to remind people it doesn't have squat to do with the thread's topic.

[CrutchCricket]

So they shouldn't feel racially superior because their race "didn't have many accomplishments of note"? Perhaps if it were otherwise their racism would be justified somehow?

lol, don't tell me you're turning this into some kind of social justice thing. Sith racism=/= real world racism because real world racism doesn't give you superpowers, and even if it did, being factually superior to another race doesn't justify actually treating them like crap for it. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging you're superior to someone (provided it's objectively true) as long as you're not a dick about it. What I find ridiculous is that they're hilariously wrong about where that superiority comes from (which is admittedly questionable to begin with, given non-Sith heritage beings can become just as powerful in the Force).

 

Also, please keep things straight. The original Sith species has nothing to brag about outside of Adas. The hybrids have their accomplishments, most of which are due to the exiled Jedi's influences.

 

 

Wrong. Compare Ludo Kressh to Naga Sadow. They are clearly of different species. True, BW lazily didn't put some actual purebloods (and I say lazily because there's one basic model for the Sith purebloods and that's it; and I do realise the game's so huge that calling not putting more Sith models in the game laziness is idiotic xD), and it might be justified because TOR takes place 1400 years after the time of Sadow and Kressh. But by 5000 BBY (or 1400 BTC) there are clearly two dominant species: the hybrids and the purebloods.

Wrong. Hybrids="purebloods" of the TOR era. Pureblood is a misnomer. The original Sith species faded out long before.

 

'In the Sith Empire, as time progressed pure-blooded Sith were steadily bred out,[5] resulting in only a few pure-blooded Sith left in the Sith Empire by the time of the Great Hyperspace War.[14] Long after, the true species in the Empire were believed have gone extinct due to the interbreeding process.[24]"

 

"In fact, the Sith Purebloods were thought to be very different from the original Sith species as a whole,[27][32] and to be a Pureblood required that one had retained enough traits shared with the original species to be visually clear in their appearance"

 

And on Sadow and Kressh:

" It was common for the Sith of this age,[17][18] especially half–breeds (like Ludo Kressh[14] and Marka Ragnos[25]) to have four digits on each of their hands.[17][18] Although there was at least one who showed more than average Dark Jedi traits like Naga Sadow—who had among the purest Jedi lineage, with minimal Sith blood.[26] Sadow showed many Human features, including five digits on his hands and feet, as well as the absence of bone spurs and eyebrow-stalks. However, he maintained qualities of the Sith species such as cheek tendrils[17][18] (albiet shorter than those of purer Sith lineage),[21] and red skin.[17][18]"

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_%28species%29

 

Every major Sith figure from the Great Hyperspace War era and beyond is a hybrid with varying ratios of Sith-human genetics.

 

Btw, "inferior", "superior", does not matter. Sadow didn't win his war with Kressh because he had "superior genetics", he won it because he seduced more Sith Lords to his cause (cause of war) than Kressh did.

I agree.

 

And "Dark Jedi" are clearly inferior in capabilities than Sith: the Dark Jedi exiles absorbed many rituals that were commonplace amongst the Sith, but unknown to Jedi previously. Besides, if the original Dark Jedi felt racially superior to Sith, why would they modify the Sith genetics so they could breed into the Sith species, rather than start a smaller colony of "racially superior beings"?

Because there were only a handful of them and they would've become the hillbillies of the SW galaxy?

 

And the Dark Jedi absorbing (I would say mastering and perfecting) commonplace rituals proves my point not yours. It shows not only strength in that they can pull them off, but also adaptability that they ran with them and created the Sith Order, originator of some of the most devastating and powerful displays of the Force ever performed by mere mortals. Show me one original Sith feat (uninfluenced by Dark Jedi) that even compares to what Dark Lords have done in the years since their inception. Adas was said to be a master of Sith magic but his accomplishments seem to be more martial in nature. He didn't defeat the Rakata with magic, he just swung his giant ax in their faces.

 

None of this has to do with genetics, I agree. Though Sith phenotypes becoming more and more rare would suggest Sith genes are recessive compared to human genes so technically this might make human genes superior (but not in a social hot topic way). But the Sith culture simply was not as "strong" as what the Jedi exiles created.

 

I do like this discussion. But I'd like to remind people it doesn't have squat to do with the thread's topic.

lol nope. I believe it was just a convoluted way of proving the creature you kill as a Knight wasn't the true body of the Emperor. Which is pointless since that's flat out said, I think.

[Stinghen]

lol, don't tell me you're turning this into some kind of social justice thing. Sith racism=/= real world racism because real world racism doesn't give you superpowers, and even if it did, being factually superior to another race doesn't justify actually treating them like crap for it. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging you're superior to someone (provided it's objectively true) as long as you're not a dick about it. What I find ridiculous is that they're hilariously wrong about where that superiority comes from (which is admittedly questionable to begin with, given non-Sith heritage beings can become just as powerful in the Force).

 

Hmm, strange. It's almost like you felt it would be OK for the Sith to brag about heritage if they were "superior". I just can't resist provoking people.

 

Sith feelings of superiority certainly have everything to do with the Force. The vast majority of Sith purebloods were Force-sensitive. Look at the Empire as it is in the game: the vast majority of Sith-descending humans are not Force-sensitive. Makes'em feel superior, don't you think?

 

Also, it's fairly true racist *****s usually cling to telling features of their racial superiority. Kinda like Hitler's "aryan role-model", a physical description even Hitler himself didn't fit into of the "perfect human being". When you translate that into a world that has aliens in it. it becomes even easier: just give the specific alien traits that "sets the superior beings apart." Kinda like this: if you're red, you rock, if you're not, sucks to be you. Savvy?

 

Also, please keep things straight. The original Sith species has nothing to brag about outside of Adas. The hybrids have their accomplishments, most of which are due to the exiled Jedi's influences.

 

"Nothing to brag about outside of Adas..." the Sith only drove the raks out after Adas died. Adas was bad-***? No doubt. What happened after Adas died? The Sith fought each other off for leadership. That hardly means they couldn't "accomplish anything at all", it just means they were a self-destructive bunch. Lemme give you some examples that has much more to do with Sith philosophy than it does to the "inferiority" of the Sith species.

 

Freedon Nadd, after learning what he could from Naga Sadow,. killed the Dark Lord and founded a "kingdom" of his own. Which, like, spanned only one planet. After his death Onderon began its long decadence. Freedon Nadd was human, this means humans are completely incapable of greatness? No.

 

After Exar Kun was defeated, his Sith Brotherhood devoured itself. Hell, they started eating each other alive while Kun was still alive. Kun was also human, as were the Sithilies who wanted to rise to power in his days, like Aleema Keto.

 

After Malak betrayed Revan, and was later killed by Revan, the Sith once again ate each other alive. They were for the most part human.

 

Darth Baras tried to eat his comrades alive, by staging a coup against the Emperor. He was killed in the end, but his little power play cost the Sith quite a bit. Baras was Sith-blooded, but was predominantly human. Wasn't he supposed to be "superior" to the red sith?

 

Darth Thanaton (a Sith-blooded human) wasted the entirety of his rule in the Dark Council fighting off another Sith Lord, with whom he picked a fight for not a particularly good reason. Again, this little struggle cost the Sith a bit. Thanaton must've been that sort of "inferior" humans too.

 

Darth Sidious, a non-Sith blooded human, tried to subvert the order of things by replacing his current apprentice (Vader) with a younger one (Luke), and that cost him and the Sith their rule of the Galaxy. He must really be of an inferior race, must he not?

 

The bottomline is this: the pureblooded Sith "didn't work as a species" because they ate each other alive, but that particularly self-destructive trait was adopted as part of Sith phi losophy (once the species ceased to be), not a telling feature of an "inferior species".

 

Wrong. Hybrids="purebloods" of the TOR era. Pureblood is a misnomer. The original Sith species faded out long before.

 

'In the Sith Empire, as time progressed pure-blooded Sith were steadily bred out,[5] resulting in only a few pure-blooded Sith left in the Sith Empire by the time of the Great Hyperspace War.[14] Long after, the true species in the Empire were believed have gone extinct due to the interbreeding process.[24]"

 

"In fact, the Sith Purebloods were thought to be very different from the original Sith species as a whole,[27][32] and to be a Pureblood required that one had retained enough traits shared with the original species to be visually clear in their appearance"

 

And on Sadow and Kressh:

" It was common for the Sith of this age,[17][18] especially half–breeds (like Ludo Kressh[14] and Marka Ragnos[25]) to have four digits on each of their hands.[17][18] Although there was at least one who showed more than average Dark Jedi traits like Naga Sadow—who had among the purest Jedi lineage, with minimal Sith blood.[26] Sadow showed many Human features, including five digits on his hands and feet, as well as the absence of bone spurs and eyebrow-stalks. However, he maintained qualities of the Sith species such as cheek tendrils[17][18] (albiet shorter than those of purer Sith lineage),[21] and red skin.[17][18]"

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_%28species%29

 

Every major Sith figure from the Great Hyperspace War era and beyond is a hybrid with varying ratios of Sith-human genetics.

 

You answered my question. Lemme requote: "Resulting on only a few pure-blooded Sith left in the Sith Empire by the time of the Great Hyperspace War." That means they weren't yet extinct at that time. "A few" =/= "None". The answer goes on: "Long after, the true speciesin the Emprie were believed to have gone extinct due to the interbreeding process." Which says, that long after the Great Hyperspace War, in the Sith Empire, the "true Sith" species was already extinct. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh lived in the Great Hyperspace War, 1400 years before the events on TOR (which is the "long after" period referred to in the text). By the time of TOR, there were, however, two different species: Sith-blooded humans, and Sith-human hybrids. You can't deny those are two different species. It's like saying wolves (fully carnivorous, large) are of the same species as dogs (omnivorous and medium-sized). Some dogs are closer to wolves (like a Husky), just like some Sith-human hybrids are more like humans (like those without eyebrow stalks or protrusions on the chin). Still two species though.

 

But we're talking about the time of TOR. Sith like Ludo Kressh can no longer be found, Sith like Naga Sadow are considered purebloods. In 1400 years of isolation, the Empire turned its standards upside down, fancy that.

 

Because there were only a handful of them and they would've become the hillbillies of the SW galaxy?

 

"Dark Jedi" is a blanket term. After the Hundred Year Darkness, no Dark Jedi could achieve what the Dark Jedi exiles could (those that became the Jen'jidai in the Sith Empire). And after the Jen'jidai became masters of the Sith Empire, the Sith as a whole became the true masters of the Dark Side of the Force, mixing the Sith practices with those developed by the Jen'jidai during their period as Dark Jedi insurgents during the Second Great Schism. So clearly the Jen'jidai were exceptions amongst Dark Jedi: the true threat to the Galaxy and the Jedi Order were not "ordinary" Dark Jedi, but instead the Dark Lords of the Sith: masters of greater powers inherited from the Sith Empire.

 

And the Dark Jedi absorbing (I would say mastering and perfecting) commonplace rituals proves my point not yours. It shows not only strength in that they can pull them off, but also adaptability that they ran with them and created the Sith Order, originator of some of the most devastating and powerful displays of the Force ever performed by mere mortals. Show me one original Sith feat (uninfluenced by Dark Jedi) that even compares to what Dark Lords have done in the years since their inception. Adas was said to be a master of Sith magic but his accomplishments seem to be more martial in nature. He didn't defeat the Rakata with magic, he just swung his giant ax in their faces.

 

I'm talking about the merit of the true masters of the Dark Side. The Jen'jidai mastered the Sith because the Sith weren't unified. Would twelve Darksiders topple Adas' empire? I think not. But once they proved stronger than the strongest Sith of the time, people became scared. Because they were initially prone to believe the Dark Jedi were gods. Superstition, not superiority of any sort, was the factor that allowed Pall and his pals to take over the Sith and their "empire". Because, in a scenario where superstition was absent, don't doubt a dozen Dark Jedi would be eaten alive by the population of a single Sith planet (Korriban).

 

Back to the matter of merit, the Sith themselves had created, or adapted, many things for their own after King Adas and the defeat of the Rakata. Things like holocrons and alchemy (they knew alchemy before knowing the Jen'jidai, and the Jen'jidai also knew alchemy before they knew the Sith Empire) and sorcery. And there's one very big difference. What the Sith took from the Rakata, they had to learn for themselves. The Jen'jidai could learn Sith Force techniques directly from the Sith, to increase their own knowledge and mastery. Sorzus Syn did it, look to the Book of Sith for her own account. Attributing the success of the Sith Empire after the coming of the Dark Jedi only to the knowledge of the Dark Jedi is, in my opinion, fairly wrong. Don't forget the Dark Jedi got their butts kicked big-time after their rebellion.

 

None of this has to do with genetics, I agree. Though Sith phenotypes becoming more and more rare would suggest Sith genes are recessive compared to human genes so technically this might make human genes superior (but not in a social hot topic way). But the Sith culture simply was not as "strong" as what the Jedi exiles created.

 

I don't know squat of genetics. I'm talking about general capabilities, that's what I understand from "racial superiority". For example, a hardier species is superior to a weaker one, in the physical sense. In the Star Wars universe, a species which is universally Force-sensitive is superior to any species that isn't (like humans), for the simple fact Force-users are more capable than those who are not. And that's certainly what Sith judge as superiority. Even at a time when there were plenty of Sith purebloods. That they believed Dark Jedi ancestry meant power was, again, part of Sith superstition. It gets you killed fellas, superstition gets you killed xD In fact, it's possible human miscigenation killed the predominant Force-sensitivity found amongst those who had (any) Sith ancestry, resulting in squealing Sith-blooded but non-Force-sensitive citizens in the Empire xD I love how the ordinary Imps play superior to my Force-sensitive Jedi Knight xD That's usually right before I kick their arses xD

 

 

lol nope. I believe it was just a convoluted way of proving the creature you kill as a Knight wasn't the true body of the Emperor. Which is pointless since that's flat out said, I think.

 

We're off-topic! xD

 

Btw, I missed your statemente about the Emperor not wanting to promote the Sith as a master race. I agree to a point. It doesn't help directly in the emperor's true purpose (which seems to be to eat everyone in the galaxy so far), but it does help him with the bigger tool to do that. Fascist leaders usually use racism as a tool of control. If a poor white man believes himself superior to a society member which is of even lower status for himself, he has a bigger chance of forgetting he too is oppressed by the true ruling class. In other words, he's not Force-sensitive, but has Sith blood, means he'll care less when he's stomped by the true Sith (the Force-sensitive ones), because he gets to stomp on the lowly slave with no Sith blood at all xD So the Emperor had a lot of uses for the concept of Sith racial superiority. Maybe that's why he flung the old concept of racial superiority out the window. That's what I like to think.

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm, strange. It's almost like you felt it would be OK for the Sith to brag about heritage if they were "superior".

Sure it would. Lines would only be crossed if they moved from bragging to discrimination or outright subjugation (as they clearly do)

 

Sith feelings of superiority certainly have everything to do with the Force. The vast majority of Sith purebloods were Force-sensitive. Look at the Empire as it is in the game: the vast majority of Sith-descending humans are not Force-sensitive. Makes'em feel superior, don't you think?

For the wrong reasons, which is what I've been saying. Force-sensitivity objectively makes you superior, that is true. But for all their vaunted Force-sensitive rates, purebloods are still dying out. So who's really superior in the long run? 100 Sith purebloods of which 99 are Force-sensitive, or 1000 human of which 99 are Force-sensitive? There's no contest. Not to mention that purebloods cripple themselves with their pride. A non Force-sensitive pureblood is trash. A non Force-sensitive human can be a Grand Moff or a Cipher Agent or the Minister of Intelligence. And there's so many more of them.

 

When you translate that into a world that has aliens in it. it becomes even easier: just give the specific alien traits that "sets the superior beings apart." Kinda like this: if you're red, you rock, if you're not, sucks to be you. Savvy?

Which, again is the wrong way to do it. Latching on to a dying phenotype as opposed to the thing that actually gives you superpowers. In real life there isn't something that gives you superpowers, hence why racism is always dumb.

 

"Nothing to brag about outside of Adas..." the Sith only drove the raks out after Adas died. Adas was bad-***? No doubt. What happened after Adas died? The Sith fought each other off for leadership. That hardly means they couldn't "accomplish anything at all", it just means they were a self-destructive bunch. Lemme give you some examples that has much more to do with Sith philosophy than it does to the "inferiority" of the Sith species.

Being self-destructive accomplishes nothing but... self-destructing. The old Sith had nothing remarkable about them. You're proving my point.

 

Freedon Nadd, after learning what he could from Naga Sadow,. killed the Dark Lord and founded a "kingdom" of his own. Which, like, spanned only one planet. After his death Onderon began its long decadence. Freedon Nadd was human, this means humans are completely incapable of greatness? No.

Freedon Nadd ruled unchallenged for over a century, died a natural death and continued to teach other in the ways of the dark side after his death. How is this not greatness?

 

After Exar Kun was defeated, his Sith Brotherhood devoured itself. Hell, they started eating each other alive while Kun was still alive. Kun was also human, as were the Sithilies who wanted to rise to power in his days, like Aleema Keto.

 

After Malak betrayed Revan, and was later killed by Revan, the Sith once again ate each other alive. They were for the most part human.

 

Darth Baras tried to eat his comrades alive, by staging a coup against the Emperor. He was killed in the end, but his little power play cost the Sith quite a bit. Baras was Sith-blooded, but was predominantly human. Wasn't he supposed to be "superior" to the red sith?

 

Darth Thanaton (a Sith-blooded human) wasted the entirety of his rule in the Dark Council fighting off another Sith Lord, with whom he picked a fight for not a particularly good reason. Again, this little struggle cost the Sith a bit. Thanaton must've been that sort of "inferior" humans too.

 

Darth Sidious, a non-Sith blooded human, tried to subvert the order of things by replacing his current apprentice (Vader) with a younger one (Luke), and that cost him and the Sith their rule of the Galaxy. He must really be of an inferior race, must he not?

 

The bottomline is this: the pureblooded Sith "didn't work as a species" because they ate each other alive, but that particularly self-destructive trait was adopted as part of Sith phi losophy (once the species ceased to be), not a telling feature of an "inferior species".

What are you even talking about? I said give me one example of old Sith greatness, you gave me a few misguided examples of human "failures" (hint: most weren't failures in the way you've phrased them).

 

The old Sith weren't inferior because they were self-destructive, they were inferior because they achieved diddly squat, apart from driving off the Rakata. I never said they didn't work as a species, I said they were utterly unremarkable as a species, despite having such a high rate of Force-sensitivity (which in this light, actually works against them).

 

The Sith Order on the other hand achieved everything from immortality (on separate occasions) to the destruction of the Republic and conquest of the galaxy. The self-destructive problem was solved by Darth Bane via the Rule of Two, something that, depending on your interpretation of the Chosen One prophecy, the Force itself had to conspire to overthrow.

 

You answered my question. Lemme requote: "Resulting on only a few pure-blooded Sith left in the Sith Empire by the time of the Great Hyperspace War." That means they weren't yet extinct at that time. "A few" =/= "None". The answer goes on: "Long after, the true speciesin the Emprie were believed to have gone extinct due to the interbreeding process." Which says, that long after the Great Hyperspace War, in the Sith Empire, the "true Sith" species was already extinct. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh lived in the Great Hyperspace War, 1400 years before the events on TOR (which is the "long after" period referred to in the text).

And? I never claimed there were exactly zero actually pure Sith in the time of TOR. I just said the species had faded. None of this contradicts that. The Rakata had faded too yet we see one or two walking around. What's your point?

 

By the time of TOR, there were, however, two different species: Sith-blooded humans, and Sith-human hybrids. You can't deny those are two different species. It's like saying wolves (fully carnivorous, large) are of the same species as dogs (omnivorous and medium-sized). Some dogs are closer to wolves (like a Husky), just like some Sith-human hybrids are more like humans (like those without eyebrow stalks or protrusions on the chin). Still two species though.

Yes, because more pure humans were available to breed as the Empire expanded and conquered.

 

"Dark Jedi" is a blanket term. After the Hundred Year Darkness, no Dark Jedi could achieve what the Dark Jedi exiles could (those that became the Jen'jidai in the Sith Empire). And after the Jen'jidai became masters of the Sith Empire, the Sith as a whole became the true masters of the Dark Side of the Force, mixing the Sith practices with those developed by the Jen'jidai during their period as Dark Jedi insurgents during the Second Great Schism. So clearly the Jen'jidai were exceptions amongst Dark Jedi: the true threat to the Galaxy and the Jedi Order were not "ordinary" Dark Jedi, but instead the Dark Lords of the Sith: masters of greater powers inherited from the Sith Empire.

Again this doesn't disprove my point. For the sake of simplicity let's say the exiled Dark Jedi "weaponized" the powers of the old Sith to become the Dark Lords. That's still a point for the exiles, not the Sith because they were the ones who took those powers to their maximum potential, whether through superior training or superior strength in the Force.

 

I'm talking about the merit of the true masters of the Dark Side. The Jen'jidai mastered the Sith because the Sith weren't unified. Would twelve Darksiders topple Adas' empire? I think not. But once they proved stronger than the strongest Sith of the time, people became scared. Because they were initially prone to believe the Dark Jedi were gods. Superstition, not superiority of any sort, was the factor that allowed Pall and his pals to take over the Sith and their "empire". Because, in a scenario where superstition was absent, don't doubt a dozen Dark Jedi would be eaten alive by the population of a single Sith planet (Korriban).

Why not? Look at your words. If they proved stronger than the strongest Sith they won. Could that Sith have been Adas? Certainly. There's nothing fundamentally preventing that. And superstition is the mark of a primitive civilization, not an advanced one. This point could be boiled down to "they let themselves be conquered or they were tricked into it" but it doesn't change the validity of the conquest, it simply confirms it a different way. What does it matter if you beat your enemies through strength, cunning or their own stupidity? You still win.

 

Back to the matter of merit, the Sith themselves had created, or adapted, many things for their own after King Adas and the defeat of the Rakata. Things like holocrons and alchemy (they knew alchemy before knowing the Jen'jidai, and the Jen'jidai also knew alchemy before they knew the Sith Empire) and sorcery. And there's one very big difference. What the Sith took from the Rakata, they had to learn for themselves. The Jen'jidai could learn Sith Force techniques directly from the Sith, to increase their own knowledge and mastery. Sorzus Syn did it, look to the Book of Sith for her own account. Attributing the success of the Sith Empire after the coming of the Dark Jedi only to the knowledge of the Dark Jedi is, in my opinion, fairly wrong. Don't forget the Dark Jedi got their butts kicked big-time after their rebellion.

Check your facts. The Rakata taught Adas how to "store his essence" into holocrons as a way of gaining his trust. He then took what he learned and used it against them. I've already acknowledged his accomplishments. As I said, they're the only ones of note before the Dark Jedi showed up.

 

And the Exiles were defeated by their own people (hence why they would be exiles), people with equivalent mastery of the Force and technology. The old Sith however were inferior in both respects.

 

I don't know squat of genetics. I'm talking about general capabilities, that's what I understand from "racial superiority". For example, a hardier species is superior to a weaker one, in the physical sense.

Not necessarily. If the physically weaker species develops other advantages to compensate it can no longer be said to be inferior. These things aren't measured across just one spectrum.

In the Star Wars universe, a species which is universally Force-sensitive is superior to any species that isn't (like humans), for the simple fact Force-users are more capable than those who are not. And that's certainly what Sith judge as superiority. Even at a time when there were plenty of Sith purebloods. That they believed Dark Jedi ancestry meant power was, again, part of Sith superstition. It gets you killed fellas, superstition gets you killed xD In fact, it's possible human miscigenation killed the predominant Force-sensitivity found amongst those who had (any) Sith ancestry, resulting in squealing Sith-blooded but non-Force-sensitive citizens in the Empire

Tell that to the Rakata. Or the Yuuzhan Vong for that matter. One had the Force but was unable to adapt when it was taken away and the other did just fine without it, for the most part. Again, one factor, even one as significant as the Force doesn't determine this by itself.

 

Recall my numbers example above. 100 Sith with 99 Force-sensitives vs 1000 humans with 99 Force-sensitives. The Sith shun the remaining one guy who may be Thrawn-level smart vs the humans whose 991 remaining members are all doing something useful. Who would you really bet on?

 

As powerful as the Force is it clearly isn't 100% trump all the time. That's one of the main points of the Agent story.

 

 

 

Btw, I missed your statemente about the Emperor not wanting to promote the Sith as a master race. I agree to a point. It doesn't help directly in the emperor's true purpose (which seems to be to eat everyone in the galaxy so far), but it does help him with the bigger tool to do that. Fascist leaders usually use racism as a tool of control. If a poor white man believes himself superior to a society member which is of even lower status for himself, he has a bigger chance of forgetting he too is oppressed by the true ruling class. In other words, he's not Force-sensitive, but has Sith blood, means he'll care less when he's stomped by the true Sith (the Force-sensitive ones), because he gets to stomp on the lowly slave with no Sith blood at all xD So the Emperor had a lot of uses for the concept of Sith racial superiority. Maybe that's why he flung the old concept of racial superiority out the window. That's what I like to think.

Ehh... I don't think the Emperor really thinks on mortal terms anymore. He was scheming, cunning and even inspiring before the war broke out. But now that he's intent on just omnomnoming everything, such things are beneath him.

[Stinghen]

Sure it would. Lines would only be crossed if they moved from bragging to discrimination or outright subjugation (as they clearly do)

 

You understood what I meant. We agree their racism is rather stupid (both the old version and the new, btw) and not valid, especially in the time of TOR. Except for the reason I stated before: the racism kept the Empire under control for 1400 years in isolation, tightly under Vitiate's boot.

 

For the wrong reasons, which is what I've been saying. Force-sensitivity objectively makes you superior, that is true. But for all their vaunted Force-sensitive rates, purebloods are still dying out. So who's really superior in the long run? 100 Sith purebloods of which 99 are Force-sensitive, or 1000 human of which 99 are Force-sensitive? There's no contest. Not to mention that purebloods cripple themselves with their pride. A non Force-sensitive pureblood is trash. A non Force-sensitive human can be a Grand Moff or a Cipher Agent or the Minister of Intelligence. And there's so many more of them.

 

No contest. My point is: the Sith would feel superior because 99% of its individuals would be Force-sensitive, whereas only a 10% of humans would be. The point is Force sensitivity. They are at a point in history where the Dark Jedi are very distant, whereas they long for the days just before the Great Hyperspace War, when the Empire was strong and there was a bunch of red-skinned apes slumbering about their worlds, rather than an entire host of humans blind to the Force.

 

Which, again is the wrong way to do it. Latching on to a dying phenotype as opposed to the thing that actually gives you superpowers. In real life there isn't something that gives you superpowers, hence why racism is always dumb.

 

Wrong? Under which perspective is it wrong? As I stated above, it's a very comfortable situation for those few who detain the prized phenotype. And would help keep everyone else from rebelling if they actually believed they were inferior. There are some conversation options in that sense with Darth Nox: as an alien, you can talk to Ashara about how aliens in the Sith Empire must work twice as hard to accomplish what a pureblood or Sith-blooded human could.

 

Being self-destructive accomplishes nothing but... self-destructing. The old Sith had nothing remarkable about them. You're proving my point.

 

My point is this: the Sith being self-destructive is a trait every Sith inherited from the Sith species. In the absence of an Adas, an Exar Kun, a Darth Revan, a Darth Sidious, they invariably ate each other alive. It's a trait of the Sith philosophy, not the Sith species. It also happens to be why the Sith always failed just before bringing the Republic to its knees, until the Rule of Two came along and taught them to work for a common purpose. And even then their hubris caused them to eat each other alive.

 

 

The old Sith weren't inferior because they were self-destructive, they were inferior because they achieved diddly squat, apart from driving off the Rakata. I never said they didn't work as a species, I said they were utterly unremarkable as a species, despite having such a high rate of Force-sensitivity (which in this light, actually works against them).[\QUOTE]

 

They achieved diddly squat because it was always more interesting to kill each other off. It pays to remind they lived on systems inside the Stygian Caldera, which was hard to navigate into and out of. So they couldn't go very far where the galaxt was concerned. Indeed, even after the coming of the Dark Jedi, the Empire achieved veeeery little: the only noteworthy Dark Lords in those days were Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos. It took two Hyperspace explorers to arrive on the Empire for the Sith to be able to leave their little corner of the Outer Rim and pour into the Republic in war. Before that, as always, they were content with simply poking each other with their sharp sticks. Where would Sadow turn his war to if Gav and Jori hadn't arrived when they did?

 

The Sith Order on the other hand achieved everything from immortality (on separate occasions) to the destruction of the Republic and conquest of the galaxy. The self-destructive problem was solved by Darth Bane via the Rule of Two, something that, depending on your interpretation of the Chosen One prophecy, the Force itself had to conspire to overthrow.

 

There's simply not enough lore writted down for the pre-Dark Jedi Sith. I think you presume too much. From the Book of Sith (Sorzus Syn's account of the finding of Sith space):

 

Upon arriving:

"We touched down on Korriban - the world that screams the loudest for those who can hear the dark side's voice"

 

This is a merit of the Sith, not the Rakata. The Sith used Korriban as the hallowed burial ground of "a thousand kings", who ruled as powerful Darksiders.

 

On the Sith purebloods:

"The Sith respect power, and they are content to serve us. In fact, the Sith purebloods are marvels. They are a people driven by hunger, rage, and the dark side. (...)

After much experimentation, I have concluded that their blood is sufficiently similar to our own to permit allchemical crossbreeding. I know Dreypa, for one, has his eye on a Sith pirestess. He will be pleased his bloodline will not only persist but thrive!"

 

Hah! The Dark Jedi stated their superiority over the Sith purebloods many times. But they still respected Sith society (its self-destructive nature included - which is why later Sith preserved that until Darth Bane changed stuffs), and were willing to mix in with them.

 

"The Sith Purebloods are strong in the Force, but they do not outmatch us. (...) They have discovered many secrets, some unknown to any other beings in the galaxy."

 

Need I say it? Praise and recognition: the reason why the Dark Jedi were glad they landed where they did, where the dark side screams the loudest.

 

"Sith purebloods are natural adepts at the dark side. This I must emphasize, for it is this trait that will make us far stronger in exile than we ever were when we held our former ranks. (...)

 

The Sith have had a thousand generations to perfect the dark arts."

 

Syn goes on to praise Sith holocrons, and then their conquests.

 

"As revealed by the Holocron, the successors of King Adas used their power to conquer worlds beyond Korriban and Ziost."

 

So they made the Empire span more than a couple planets after Adas died. Achievement unlocked, no?

 

And finally, on alchemy:

"The holocron (of King Nakgru - not Adas) revealed much about the creation of warbeasts, (...) What a delight to have landed amidst fellow twisters of life!"

 

Syn prized Sith alchemy (she was the band's top alchemist), and yet she took great pleasure in replicating the work of the Sith.

 

"I was the greatest of the master summoners who fought in the Hundred-Year Darkness. My inspirations came to me in rumours and dreams, and only now, in the minaret of Ziost, do I realise it was the call of the Sith all along. Sith alchemists have had ages to perfect their art, and their knowledge is now mine."

 

I go on, only for a bit more xD

"Alchemy is my science, yet I have found the Sith pureblooods possess a new understanding of how to manipulate the Dark Side."

 

She speaks of Sith sorcery and incantations.

 

So, to Sorzus Syn, a Dark Jedi exile from the conquerors of the "frail" Sith Empire, the purebloods were not inferior. They were deemed by her the true masters of the Dark Side, and the means by which they (the Jen'jidai) would achieve true greatness. So, while they conquered the Sith Empire, they embraced it fully. Probably that was also why they bred into the Sith species as well? I would venture a guess at least that's why Sorzus Syn would do something like that.

 

At any rate, the Sith purebloods allowed the survival of the legacy of a dozen Dark Jedi exiles. A legacy that would survive for millenia after their own deaths.

 

And? I never claimed there were exactly zero actually pure Sith in the time of TOR. I just said the species had faded. None of this contradicts that. The Rakata had faded too yet we see one or two walking around. What's your point?

 

You did say there were no purebloods by the time of Sadow and Kressh up there, somewhere. Was just correcting that, not about the time of TOR. About TOR, there may yet be one pureblood still "alive": the Emperor. Assuming it was stated somewhere that he was a human-Sith hybrid, I'm not sure if that's the case.

 

Again this doesn't disprove my point. For the sake of simplicity let's say the exiled Dark Jedi "weaponized" the powers of the old Sith to become the Dark Lords. That's still a point for the exiles, not the Sith because they were the ones who took those powers to their maximum potential, whether through superior training or superior strength in the Force.

 

As The Book of Sith shows, at least Sorzus Syn didn't feel her arts were superior to those of the Sith purebloods.

 

Why not? Look at your words. If they proved stronger than the strongest Sith they won. Could that Sith have been Adas? Certainly. There's nothing fundamentally preventing that. And superstition is the mark of a primitive civilization, not an advanced one. This point could be boiled down to "they let themselves be conquered or they were tricked into it" but it doesn't change the validity of the conquest, it simply confirms it a different way. What does it matter if you beat your enemies through strength, cunning or their own stupidity? You still win.

 

They didn't win because they were inherently superior. They won because the Sith were superstitious. Otherwise it wouldn't take long for them to realise the Jen'jidai were twelve, and rather mortal instead of divine (albeit very powerful mortals, they still were twelve pinkskins in a sea of red).

 

Check your facts. The Rakata taught Adas how to "store his essence" into holocrons as a way of gaining his trust. He then took what he learned and used it against them. I've already acknowledged his accomplishments. As I said, they're the only ones of note before the Dark Jedi showed up.

 

I stand corrected. Still, the barbaric Sith didn't lose the knowledge, however self-destructive they were. And as Syn stated, they progressed in their dark arts, as much as their own circumstances would allow.

 

And the Exiles were defeated by their own people (hence why they would be exiles), people with equivalent mastery of the Force and technology. The old Sith however were inferior in both respects.

 

Incorrect where the Force is concerned. No basis for that argument.

 

Tell that to the Rakata. Or the Yuuzhan Vong for that matter. One had the Force but was unable to adapt when it was taken away and the other did just fine without it, for the most part. Again, one factor, even one as significant as the Force doesn't determine this by itself.

 

The Vong had an advantage because their technology was effing strange, and the Force was no advantage against them because, well, Vong. But the only advantage the Exiles had over the Sith was the latter's superstition. They were more powerful, perhaps, than any individual Sith. But they were twelve chaps in the middle of a destructive species spanning dozens of planets.

 

The only things the Sith had going against them was: their primitive nature, which means they had little tech (but hell, they had Alchemy!), and their superstition.

 

Recall my numbers example above. 100 Sith with 99 Force-sensitives vs 1000 humans with 99 Force-sensitives. The Sith shun the remaining one guy who may be Thrawn-level smart vs the humans whose 991 remaining members are all doing something useful. Who would you really bet on?

 

At the time of Sadow, there were some billions or trillions of Sith, 1% of which (probably less) wouldn't be Force-sensitive. After the GHW, there was sort of a Republic-led pogrom against the Sith species. And Vitiate helped along, by omnoming the few hundred Sith Lords what remained on Nathema. He led a small fraction of that into exile. Plus, his 20-year exodus to Dromund Kaas turned the Sith Empire remnants into quite a different society: suddenly there weren't a dozen Sith Lords contesting for power amongst themselves, there was just The Emperor and his chosen people, in a long holy journey towards the lost Holy Land. And when they arrived there, they must rebuild what they've lost. That's a huge change in paradigm, and it's not hard to understand why the Sith survivors (and their descendants) would feel far superior to other "citizens"in the Empire. Such as the human population that began to grow.

 

Ehh... I don't think the Emperor really thinks on mortal terms anymore. He was scheming, cunning and even inspiring before the war broke out. But now that he's intent on just omnomnoming everything, such things are beneath him.

 

After the JK story, no doubt his thought process is inscrutable to us mortals. Which brings us back to the topic xD

[adormitul]

If Vitiate is full Sith and his mother was not and not even his half father does it not look strange that the of 1% of the entire sith species that are not force sensitive are his mother and step father?

What where the chances for his father to poke a non force sensitive sith. Is something to consider is he really full sith?

[BenduKundalini]

Fantastic thread!

 

I wish we saw arguments of that quality somewhere on Korriban or Dromund Kaas instead of the meaningless prattle that drives Khem Val mad