SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 1C: Selenial vs Karadron

[Beniboybling]

You saw the Edolas/Extalia arc, right? Basically redeemed Happy completely. You can't complain anymore.

Since when does Happy need to be redeemed?

[tunewalker]

Since when does Happy need to be redeemed?

 

Thread derailed, crashed into traffic and slaughtered millions..... successful derail is successful. Also, I know right Happy is awesome.

[Aurbere]

Since when does Happy need to be redeemed?

 

Because apparently Happy is annoying. But that's just Tia Ballard.

 

Happy's a champ.

[karadron]

To move this back on topic:

 

 

 

Yes, I think this would be important. Also, it would be a good idea to address how quickly Nox can recover from being 'killed'. This has happened before, so observing those examples might be a good idea.

 

Yet death does not come for Darth Sion, and each centimeter of his failing body comes alive with anguish, multiplying that infinitely distant point of pain one thousandfold until his brain threatens to collapse. Improbably Sion gets up. And as he locks eyes with his attacker, Sion lets all his anger for being killed—all the hatred clotting his heart—explode.

-KOTORCG

 

Origin story for his immortality, given the fact that he gets up and locks eyes with his attacker then the most logical conclusion is that: Yes he will just get back up just like Malachor.

 

 

Nox is a different story. They were only killed once, right after taking the first two ghosts. Almost killed because they took more than they could handle, but rectified it by modifying themselves and doing the Dream walking ritual. Each showing of near death experiences has decreased the revival time of Nox. In fact if one considers the final duel with Thanaton to be considered an example of near death for Nox then it can be assumed that the ghosts will provided a barrier to boost every aspect of Nox’s power—defense and offense. But even then if Nox does go down it will not be long—given the fact that they have complete control over the ghosts unlike the previous two times they were taken out.

 

Traya revival expert. Bringing back near dead people since KOTOR2. Case in point Hanharr and Colonel Tobin--both almost dead or thought to be dead. So she has the ability to bring people from near death, and given that Sion and Nox cannot be killed she could accelerate their revival given her healing abilities. Or Cipher 9 could try and throw some kolto at them.

[Silenceo]

Because apparently Happy is annoying. But that's just Tia Ballard.

 

Happy's a champ.

 

Like I said, at times, that voice...

 

As for the reviving, interesting... very interesting...

[Selenial]

Unfortunately Karadron, the vast majority of your arguments so far in this thread come from a huge lack of knowledge on the Legacy Era in general. I can’t blame you for that, it’s one of the most underread eras in the mythos, but the fundamental lack of understanding on these characters is starting to show through in your arguments. I’ll address the specifics in each of the subsections below, but I would like to point out one case here just to give it a bit more of a limelight.

 

You say that Darth Wyyrlok is capable of using Telekinesis on rubble, no more. That is wrong. We’ve seen him use it on rubble in his fight with Krayt, yes, but that’s not the extent of his abilities. He is confirmed to be the most powerful in all spheres of the Dark Side out of the One Sith, except for Darth Krayt. The accolade itself is meaningless unless you know the era, but consider this; Darth Wredd has manipulated shuttles with his telekinesis. Darth Stryfe is far superior to Darth Wredd in all aspects of the force. Wyyrlok’s half trained daughter dominated Darth Stryfe in a battle of Telekinesis, and Wyyrlok himself is noted to be far ahead of his daughter in power. So really, if Wyyrlok is so drastically superior to someone who can manipulate shuttles with Telekinesis, how is it remotely fair to say the best he can do is lift rubble? Lowballing characters will get you nowhere.

 

Moving on however, I’ve got a lot to reply to. I’m going to break my post into multiple sections, replying to your first post and also to second. I'll reply a lot less to the second post since I'll cover a lot in my reply to the first one. I’ll reply to all your individual points in those sections, and after that I think this match can be called.

 

Most of the following is my thoughts, less quote spam than the original. Enjoy

 

Krayt vs Traya and Nox

 

Krayt’s lack of fighting two versus one battles doesn’t actually matter. It’s entirely irrelevant in this. Kenobi also had not fought two opponents that were on the levels of Maul or Savage either, but he managed to successfully send them both packing.

 

“Building on that Traya and Nox are two very powerful Force users—given the number of techniques that Traya has displayed and taught I believe her to be the greatest Force user of the three. Krayt has a lot fo Force power but his application is very limited—nearly every feat he has in using lightning or TK—compared to Traya and Nox’s vast array of skills”

 

You would be very wrong to assume this, very wrong indeed. You simply cannot say that someone is a greater force user because they have a greater array of powers, it’s quality, not quantity. Krayt has shown far more effective uses of Lightning and Telekinesis than Traya has, and has accolades that place him far above all of his followers, specifically in the fields of Lightning and Telekinesis. The people who use telekinesis to throw shuttles, etc. His followers have greater telekinesis or lightning showings than Traya. This is confirmed in the 113th Star Wars Insider:

 

“Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.”

 

Lord Nihl killed Kol Skywalker with Sith Lightning, Kol could not deflect it even with his blade. Krayt is confirmed to be far superior, what showings with Lightning does Traya have? Not that I need to rely on accolades, Krayt has killed dozens of Rakghouls with his lightning alone, killed a group of force resistant Vong with Lightning, and even showed sufficient mastery of the ability to unleash it on Talon, having it arc along her skin while specifically not harming her. That level of control has yet to be shown by a single other being in the mythos.

 

In terms of his telekinesis, this is what Darth Wredd has shown when using his powers with another, someone weaker than him:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4605627

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4605628

 

The fact that both Wyyrlok and Krayt would be capable of surpassing that feat is astounding, yet they are both confirmed to be far more powerful than Darth Wredd.

 

Even still, your argument that Traya has shown more skill than Krayt is wrong, regardless. You list her abilities as drain, telekinesis, cloak among others. Krayt has shown far more breadth of knowledge than that. Before I go into that, you’re wrong regarding Traya’s cloak. It’s not actual invisibility, as I said. She explains it as making herself small in the minds of her enemies, to the point where they do not even know she is there. She does not manipulate light to make herself invisible, but minds. And she won’t manage that here.

 

As for Krayt’s abilities, you’re wrong. He’s shown incredible proficiency in Tutaminis, being one of the few force users in the mythos who has ever deflected Lightning without a Lightsaber for support. Krayt has very strong force illusions, great force strength, is said to be capable of using essence transfer. Among his most impressive abilities is Dark Transfer, he killed Cade Skywalker with it and then brought him back to life in an attempt to turn him to the Dark Side, the ability is banned here but it definitely shows Krayt’s power levels. On top of that, he has his Force Drain, Alter Environment and Consume Essence. Beyond that, he has Shatterpoint as well. A far more lethal version at that.

 

You say Darth Traya has shown Telekinesis to kill council members? Great. The Hands of the One Sith Empire were the strongest Sith in an army of 10,000 strong. An army that’s confirmed to be more powerful than the Clone Wars era Jedi. The Hands are insanely powerful, and Krayt can ragdoll any of them with utter ease.

 

The One Sith were confirmed more powerful than the PT Order by the very author of the comic books;

 

"We haven't come up with a definite number [for the Sith] but it's certainly over 1,000, probably over 10,000. […] It's not that they outnumber [the Jedi]. They're more cohesive and they have a better power base."

The Hands of the Emperor are the two most powerful Sith in the Empire bar Wyyrlok III (Krayt’s Voice). To be selected is to be believed above every other Sith, so that none could challenge them. As I have said before, regarding the hands:

"A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously."

 

Then Darth Krayt can rag-doll his hands with ease:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636449-screen+shot+2015-06-16+at+9.23.07+pm.png

He even did the same to the woman in charge of his Sith Intelligence, Darth Maladi:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636448-screen+shot+2015-04-21+at+9.50.04+pm.png

 

Also, I guess now is the best time to tell you that Traya did not choke out the council, let alone at the same time. I’m afraid to say that that’s fanon. We take the Sith Lords Restored Content Mod as canon, yes. But there’s a difference between adding to the game, and changing a canon cutscene simply to make it look better. That cutscene was edited for no reason, so unfortunately we must stick to the canon scene where she simply uses a force wave on them. That doesn’t prove her superiority over them in the same way that Malgus using a force wave on the False Emperor strike team doesn’t mean he’d beat them.

 

So yes, in terms of their 2v1, he is superior to them in Force Power. Thus really I’m going to need far more proof than what you’ve said that would suggest they can hold Krayt back, because you’re right that once he makes it into Melee range he will destroy them. Krayt as a duelist is akin to, or superior to Dooku. Except as a Jar’kai duelist he can handle 2v1’s like Ventress can.

You’re again not understanding Traya’s cloaking. She does it all through mental manipulation, she says this to the Exile when talking about why none of the masters ever notice her. She removes herself from the minds of the masters so that even when the Exile speaks to her they would not notice anything wrong. It’s a far more powerful kind of cloak as long as you are actually able to dominate the mind of the person you are facing, which Traya cannot.

 

I’m going to need to see canon sources for Nox using Phase Walk too, that’s a game mechanic. Cloaking would be a good advantage, yes, but the problem is that neither of them would last long at all against Krayt. Alone, Traya would be cut down with a blade or killed with Lightning rapidly. Nox would not stand against Krayt’s telekinesis or Lightning for long at all and his bladework would not match Krayt’s either. Neither can afford to set up an ambush because the other would not survive for long enough.

 

Sion vs Wyyrlok

 

Regarding Sion, you’re… you’re wrong.

 

Perhaps the most rage-filled Sith Lord yet encountered, Darth Sion is a shattered mesh of flesh and bone. Sion is in constant pain, but his body is held together by will and fury

Sion isn’t cunning or tactful, he’s a brute warrior. He does what he wants unless someone is there to force him into submission. Do you call challenging Darth Nihilus cunning? Thinking he can take Traya alone, cunning? The man rushes head first into every single encounter and would be a plaything for Wyyrlok to enjoy.

 

Wyyrlok himself is far more powerful than Sion could ever hope to be. He is the second most powerful Sith lord in the empire of the One Sith, a Sith Order that is 10,000 strong. Sion has no accolades and certainly no feats that place him on the level of Wyyrlok. As a saber duelist, Wyyrlok lasted a few panels against Krayt and a was fighting “Off-screen” for a while too, he put up a good fight against Krayt which puts him above Sion as a duelist as well.

 

What interests me about Sion is the fact he may indeed abandon your team. There are no rules that force team members to fight together or even to stay as a team, and certainly none that stop him from attacking your own team members.

 

He never fought Traya because he could not stand against her, but now Krayt is attacking her, what side is he to chose? Fight some Sith who he has never met before, whose names he only knows? Or to fight the woman he detests with a passion. Especially with Sion, the only price for his betrayal of her would be “killed” only to be reborn himself shortly.

 

“Sion's chaotic wrath is directed towards Sith and Jedi alike."

 

“No longer do your whispers crawl within my skull…”

 

“She is a fool who has escaped death once, she will not do so again.”

 

Sion tried to kill her again when she returned to Malachor. She destroyed him with Telekinesis, but he still detested her and tried to make sure the Exile would not reach the core, as Sion wanted to take that from Traya. He could never challenge her alone, but when Krayt arrives to take her on he will see his opportunity and seize it.

 

What past evidence suggests Wyyrlok would need to devote himself that much to mentally assaulting someone? He wanted Krayt to writhe in pain in front of the Sith to finally prove himself superior, he showed no signs of needing huge concentration that suddenly makes him derp around and be open to fire.

 

I also need a quote on Sion gaining an amp from nearby force sensitives, the assasins do but Sion’s drain appears to be entirely different to that.

 

Talon vs Cipher Nine

 

Honestly, you have no proof that Cipher Nine can face off against Talon alone. The idea that Arden Kothe is more powerful than her is frankly laughable, and in canon, Cipher Nine had one of his/her companions when facing Arden and Jadus. Many of her companions were trained killers who could have easily given Arden trouble alone, the idea of her taking a Jedi on with SCORPIO or Vector is not foolish. The idea of her managing it alone is.

 

Either way, Talon is far superior to Kothe, even he admits how rusty his abilities were and he was barely Knight level. Jadus was distracted and trying not to kill Cipher since he needed the codes. Talon on the other hand has dueled some of the most skillfull duelists of her era, deflected blaster fire from point blank range and more.

 

She has killed individuals with Force Wound, including a very powerful Imperial Knight master. She has killed people with Lightning and blasted them with Telekinesis. She is a proficient Force user capable of rag-dolling Cipher nine with minimal difficulty. Sorry to disappoint.

 

 

Teamwork

 

Honestly what you need to realise is that Nox and Traya have never met and know nothing about each other. Nox and Traya will not fight together which simply makes it easier for Krayt to divide and conquer them. While yes, Wyyrlok and Krayt may not be on the best terms, they’re smart and both dedicated to victory. The team has fought together numerous times.

 

While yes, Talon would try to save Krayt, I don’t know why that’s a bad thing? She is capable of rapid telekinetic assaults or Lightning barrages. She, Wyyrlok or Krayt can all punish one of your team members if they dare try to take the upper hand.

 

Your team also cannot use telepathy, TP becomes far harder when you do not know the mind you are communicating with. In fact, Traya has never used it in combat. What’s more is the Exile was shocked and dazed the first times Traya tried to talk in her mind, if Traya tries it on Nox, the confusion may well lead to Nox’s death.

 

 

 

“Taking down Talon”

 

 

Yes, Talon is firstly a duelist. She is also however a titan of force power, she’s strong, fast and adept. Has a vast array of powers and has shown herself to be incredibly proficient in them at the same time. She rag-dolled an Imperial Knight master with her abilities, the guard of the Princess of the Fel empire. This guard would have been one of the strongest Imperial Knights around, yet Talon took her down with no effort shown.

 

I agree that Nox and Traya would beat Talon. Neither however would beat her quickly, which is important, because if either of Nox and Traya are facing Talon, Krayt is devastating one of the others alone. He would kill them far faster than they would kill Talon.

I’ve already discussed Cipher vs Talon, but as for Sion… Sion is a good duelist, not great though, we don’t know what lightsaber style he wields or how proficient he is with it. He knew the Exile’s form inside and out, he confirmed as much on Korriban, but was still unable to beat her when she was less than half trained. So no, I don’t believe Sion to be a match for Talon.

 

Talon also actually has good Force feats while Sion has none. You could not possibly argue he was her superior in the force when she has dismissed master level opponents with her force powers with ease.

 

Sion has one feat akin to that and it was on an intensely powerful Dark Side Nexus.

 

 

“Wounding Wyyrlok”

 

Wyyrlok is being underrated here again. He’d be a good match for Traya in the force, however he is also a very good lightsaber duelist on top of this. He would slowly make his way to Traya while fighting her with the force.

 

I also need you to source that she can redirect Lightning without a lightsaber, very few Sith or Jedi in history have managed this and I need a source.

 

You cannot merely state Nox has more Arcane knowledge due to her seat on the council, Wyyrlok has been confirmed to have engrossed himself in knowledge from across the aeons, his sorcery knowledge will eclipse hers, and his natural force ability rivals hers as well. I’ve covered most of the rest of this earlier however, I think it’s obvious now how powerful Wyyrlok is and that he would compare to Traya or Nox. I also think it’s foolish to think Cipher Nine would survive any amount of seconds against him, she would not.

 

 

I’m actually not even going to reply to your Krayt section specifically, since I’ve shown why I disagree and hopefuly you’ve gained much greater respect for him due to my earlier sections.

 

As for the Nature of a 4v3:

 

This duel is not fair by nature of numbers and as thus many possible combinations exist outside of the one previously discussed (Nox and Traya vs Krayt). Other viable ones include:

Sion and Cipher 9 vs Talon, Nox and Cipher 9 vs Talon, Traya and Cipher 9 vs Talon

Cipher 9 and Sion vs Wyyrlok, Traya and Sion vs Wyyrlok, Cipher 9 and Nox vs Wyyrlok

Cipher 9 and Traya vs Krayt, Nox and Cipher 9 vs Krayt, Sion and Traya vs Krayt

 

This is correct, those battles could happen. What’s important to note though is that if Traya faces Krayt with anyone other than Nox, she will not survive, and the other matches become more even. No 2 man combination could beat Krayt in this scenario except perhaps Traya and Nox, but when Traya and Nox fight him the other two battles will finish before that one.

 

If for example, Traya fought him with Cipher Nine, he’d kill the Cipher in an instant, beating Traya faster than Nox or Wyyrlok beat the other. If Sion and Traya face Krayt, Sion will not even try to defend Traya from Krayt’s wrath, and would perhaps even join him. If Traya faces Krayt alone, and one of the other matches turns into a 2v1, your team could perhaps win that battle as fast as Krayt beats Traya. What’s massively important to note there though is that Traya is a far bigger loss to your team than Wyyrlok would be to mine, as once she is down, you have no combination that can stand up to Krayt, and Krayt and Talon’s teamwork suddenly becomes even more important.

 

As for battle strategy itself, Krayt will not leave himself open. He has fought in major group scenarios before on multiple occasions without leaving himself open, examples being:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636322-screen+shot+2015-06-18+at+4.07.05+pm.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636349-screen+shot+2015-04-21+at+9.44.10+pm.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636350-screen+shot+2015-06-02+at+11.35.12+pm.png

Krayt has only ever left himself open when facing an opponent that he is struggling to beat. When facing a 2v1 he will not be in that mindset, and when facing a 1v1 he will be winning enough to also not be in that mindset. Not to mention Talon and Wyyrlok would both be watching his back and would notice if Cipher or Nox were to disappear from the fight.

 

Talon’s force defenses are not weak, and your team cannot “burst” her without leaving yourselves majorly open to attacks from Krayt or Wyyrlok. She is also a very durable combatant in general and would be massively difficult to kill.

 

 

Honestly, sorry that this took me so long and sorry that I doubt I can respond again for a few more days. Summer is always super busy for me and this weekend is even more so. Had a fun debate though, if it's called now or after your post, thanks for the fun

Edited July 3, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

The One Sith were confirmed more powerful than the PT Order by the very author of the comic books;

 

"We haven't come up with a definite number [for the Sith] but it's certainly over 1,000, probably over 10,000. […] It's not that they outnumber [the Jedi]. They're more cohesive and they have a better power base."

Can you confirm that they are referring to the PT Jedi Order? The quote doesn't specify as such so it seems more likely to me that they are referring to the Jedi Order fighting against the Sith at the time, that makes much more sense.

 

Not that being more cohesive and having a better power base makes you more powerful in the Force...

Edited July 3, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Can you confirm that they are referring to the PT Jedi Order? The quote doesn't specify as such so it seems more likely to me that they are referring to the Jedi Order fighting against the Sith at the time, that makes much more sense.

 

Not that being more cohesive and having a better power base makes you more powerful in the Force...

 

Perhaps, but the Jedi that the One Sith faced weren't larger than Krayt's order, especially not after the massacre at Ossus. Not that the quote's really needed, to be honest. Krayt's order as a whole has far stronger feats than the PT Jedi or the Sith Empire Sith, so the point stands.

 

[Beniboybling]

I don't really see what the PT Jedi Order has to do with this frankly...

[Selenial]

I don't really see what the PT Jedi Order has to do with this frankly...

 

The fact that Talon held a position that's basically above the council, but would still apparently lose to Sion shows I kind of need a comparative level to place her on.

 

And that's the level of a member of the PT council tbh.

[Beniboybling]

Thing is Sion and Traya are just as disparate from the PT era as Talon, Wyyrlok and Krayt are.

[Selenial]

Thing is Sion and Traya are just as disparate from the PT era as Talon, Wyyrlok and Krayt are.

 

And there's no comparison in their era for Talon, Wyyrlok or Krayt :/

 

Fact is that the PT era has the most known characters, and therefore offers the best comparison.

[ShadowMudkip]

And there's no comparison in their era for Talon, Wyyrlok or Krayt :/

 

Fact is that the PT era has the most known characters, and therefore offers the best comparison.

 

Put her on the same level as Aayla Secura. They both

-are Twi'leks

-are females

-wield one lightsaber

-wear less than their contemporarys

 

/thread

[Beniboybling]

Another thing I forgot to add was that while Sion is able to turn on his team, we should note that both teams have to kill or KO all they're enemies to win, so Sion cannot realistically defect to the team trying to kill him. Edited July 3, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Another thing I forgot to add was that while Sion is able to turn on his team, we should note that both teams have to kill or KO all they're enemies to win, so Sion cannot realistically defect to the team trying to kill him.

 

Is he really trying to defect though? It's really just turning on Traya, not to mention the fact that by the time the exile confronted him the only thing leaving him alive was the fact that he wanted to spite Traya one last time by killing her...

[Beniboybling]

Sure, I was just clarifying.

[karadron]

Unfortunately Karadron, the vast majority of your arguments so far in this thread come from a huge lack of knowledge on the Legacy Era in general. I can’t blame you for that, it’s one of the most underread eras in the mythos, but the fundamental lack of understanding on these characters is starting to show through in your arguments. I’ll address the specifics in each of the subsections below, but I would like to point out one case here just to give it a bit more of a limelight.

 

You say that Darth Wyyrlok is capable of using Telekinesis on rubble, no more. That is wrong. We’ve seen him use it on rubble in his fight with Krayt, yes, but that’s not the extent of his abilities. He is confirmed to be the most powerful in all spheres of the Dark Side out of the One Sith, except for Darth Krayt. The accolade itself is meaningless unless you know the era, but consider this; Darth Wredd has manipulated shuttles with his telekinesis. Darth Stryfe is far superior to Darth Wredd in all aspects of the force. Wyyrlok’s half trained daughter dominated Darth Stryfe in a battle of Telekinesis, and Wyyrlok himself is noted to be far ahead of his daughter in power. So really, if Wyyrlok is so drastically superior to someone who can manipulate shuttles with Telekinesis, how is it remotely fair to say the best he can do is lift rubble? Lowballing characters will get you nowhere.

 

Well I hate to say it but…rubble throwing is his only in combat TK evidence shown. I mean besides that he has a penchant for lifting dead bodies around, but overall he has little evidence of actual power in TK. “most powerful in all spheres of the Dark Side” does not mean TK—I mean it’s a neutral ability. Comparing Force Users based on TK usage is actually very poor—I mean just look at poor Corran Horn who cannot naturally use TK, but was still one of the most important masters in the NJO.

 

Answer to rhetorical question: In a combat situation that is his best display of TK, and unless we assume—without concrete evidence that he can do so—yes, rubble is the best he can do.

 

I’m also going to ignore the ad hominem attack at the beginning.

 

 

Moving on however, I’ve got a lot to reply to. I’m going to break my post into multiple sections, replying to your first post and also to second. I'll reply a lot less to the second post since I'll cover a lot in my reply to the first one. I’ll reply to all your individual points in those sections, and after that I think this match can be called.

 

Most of the following is my thoughts, less quote spam than the original. Enjoy

 

Krayt vs Traya and Nox

 

Krayt’s lack of fighting two versus one battles doesn’t actually matter. It’s entirely irrelevant in this. Kenobi also had not fought two opponents that were on the levels of Maul or Savage either, but he managed to successfully send them both packing.

 

Let’s look at a variety of differences between the two situations here, because they are vastly different.

Arena:

Kenobi vs Maul and Savage: Enclosed Space—a narrow hallway.

Krayt vs Traya and Nox: Open Space—no ceiling; only obstacles are trees and rocks.

 

Combatant strengths:

Kenobi vs Maul and Savage: All three are pretty much saber oriented.

Krayt vs Traya and Nox: Krayt from combat evidence is mostly a duelist. He has thrown in Force usage but mostly defensively when he could not get in close. Traya is obviously Force power focused. Nox, though, could be considered a balanced duelist. Why? Because of their usage of Force powers in combat and skill in using a double-bladed lightsaber—or also single bladed. They defeated higher tiered opposition—Lord vs apprentice—with a saber, because they were being Force-drained—so much so that in the cutscene they can’t even do Force Lightning.

 

Overall analysis of Kenobi’s duel: Technically he almost lost; he was knocked down and surrounded, even when he was able to break out Maul TK’ed him away caving in part of the ceiling. Kenobi as well was on his backfoot most of the duel even though a good use of his environment could have made things easier for him. He was saved mostly because he is a defensive duelist who had previous experience with both his attackers.

 

Overall analysis of this situation in comparison: The environment is mostly lacking in all the elements that aided (or could have aided) Kenobi in his fight. As it is a wide open space with no ceiling or walls, and apart from trees and rocks it has little actual boundaries like the pirate base. Kenobi was facing against opponents who were more focused on dueling thus allowing his attention to be thus focused, while in Krayt’s case his opponents are not united in methodology—even though both have some preference for Force combat Nox is a much more balanced competitor than Traya.

 

 

 

 

 

You would be very wrong to assume this, very wrong indeed. You simply cannot say that someone is a greater force user because they have a greater array of powers, it’s quality, not quantity. Krayt has shown far more effective uses of Lightning and Telekinesis than Traya has, and has accolades that place him far above all of his followers, specifically in the fields of Lightning and Telekinesis. The people who use telekinesis to throw shuttles, etc. His followers have greater telekinesis or lightning showings than Traya. This is confirmed in the 113th Star Wars Insider:

 

“Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.”

 

Lord Nihl killed Kol Skywalker with Sith Lightning, Kol could not deflect it even with his blade. Krayt is confirmed to be far superior, what showings with Lightning does Traya have? Not that I need to rely on accolades, Krayt has killed dozens of Rakghouls with his lightning alone, killed a group of force resistant Vong with Lightning, and even showed sufficient mastery of the ability to unleash it on Talon, having it arc along her skin while specifically not harming her. That level of control has yet to be shown by a single other being in the mythos.

 

In terms of his telekinesis, this is what Darth Wredd has shown when using his powers with another, someone weaker than him:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4605627

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4605628

 

The fact that both Wyyrlok and Krayt would be capable of surpassing that feat is astounding, yet they are both confirmed to be far more powerful than Darth Wredd.

 

Even still, your argument that Traya has shown more skill than Krayt is wrong, regardless. You list her abilities as drain, telekinesis, cloak among others. Krayt has shown far more breadth of knowledge than that. Before I go into that, you’re wrong regarding Traya’s cloak. It’s not actual invisibility, as I said. She explains it as making herself small in the minds of her enemies, to the point where they do not even know she is there. She does not manipulate light to make herself invisible, but minds. And she won’t manage that here.

 

As for Krayt’s abilities, you’re wrong. He’s shown incredible proficiency in Tutaminis, being one of the few force users in the mythos who has ever deflected Lightning without a Lightsaber for support. Krayt has very strong force illusions, great force strength, is said to be capable of using essence transfer. Among his most impressive abilities is Dark Transfer, he killed Cade Skywalker with it and then brought him back to life in an attempt to turn him to the Dark Side, the ability is banned here but it definitely shows Krayt’s power levels. On top of that, he has his Force Drain, Alter Environment and Consume Essence. Beyond that, he has Shatterpoint as well. A far more lethal version at that.

 

You say Darth Traya has shown Telekinesis to kill council members? Great. The Hands of the One Sith Empire were the strongest Sith in an army of 10,000 strong. An army that’s confirmed to be more powerful than the Clone Wars era Jedi. The Hands are insanely powerful, and Krayt can ragdoll any of them with utter ease.

 

The One Sith were confirmed more powerful than the PT Order by the very author of the comic books;

 

"We haven't come up with a definite number [for the Sith] but it's certainly over 1,000, probably over 10,000. […] It's not that they outnumber [the Jedi]. They're more cohesive and they have a better power base."

The Hands of the Emperor are the two most powerful Sith in the Empire bar Wyyrlok III (Krayt’s Voice). To be selected is to be believed above every other Sith, so that none could challenge them. As I have said before, regarding the hands:

"A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously."

 

Then Darth Krayt can rag-doll his hands with ease:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636449-screen+shot+2015-06-16+at+9.23.07+pm.png

He even did the same to the woman in charge of his Sith Intelligence, Darth Maladi:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636448-screen+shot+2015-04-21+at+9.50.04+pm.png

 

 

 

 

 

The issue here is that most of this is supposition as opposed to actual feats that Krayt himself has performed. Looking at Krayt’s actual combat feats rather than supposed is what I have been doing throughout. His only real combat feats rely on lightning and TK. Nox and Traya have a more diverse and utility based set of tools they can use.

 

As well Kraya has a host of mental feats—breaking through difficult mental defenses of trained Jedi killers, making people forget conversations, and bending strong Force users to her will. There is really no indication that Krayt could just shrug off a subtle suggestion like that. His best mental victory was against a blatant mental assault, but subtle things should be able to slip him up—at the very least for a moment which will be long enough. Or I could base it on the fact that she surprised the Jedi Masters on Dantooine with being all Force sneakylike. Krayt is only one person, doing that to multiple minds in much more difficult as each one is unique.

 

Oh it’s nice to know that Nox also joins the ranks of lightning deflection, even more so because they do it so casually. Krayt’s only use of illusions was in physical contact against one individual—we got two here who both have good abilities that can help them move around. Dark transfer again physical contact—he would have to let down his defenses to use it too which opens him up for KO. Alter environment…where? I haven’t seen that in anything I’ve seen about him. Unless it’s something as simple as dimming lights or draining kolto tanks then my whole team has it—barring the Cipher.

 

I spent a good amount of time looking at Krayt’s Hands. They all show a penchant for saber combat over Force power. Essentially the highly coveted role is one that requires a certain set of skills, but most importantly the ability to swing a lightsaber well. And also the example just goes to show that his Hands don’t have all that great Force defenses—Talon gets TK’ed by people who display less power than him.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I guess now is the best time to tell you that Traya did not choke out the council, let alone at the same time. I’m afraid to say that that’s fanon. We take the Sith Lords Restored Content Mod as canon, yes. But there’s a difference between adding to the game, and changing a canon cutscene simply to make it look better. That cutscene was edited for no reason, so unfortunately we must stick to the canon scene where she simply uses a force wave on them. That doesn’t prove her superiority over them in the same way that Malgus using a force wave on the False Emperor strike team doesn’t mean he’d beat them.

 

 

 

I just watched the scenes—original and restored—and the difference is vast. In fact there is much more dialogue from Traya in the Restored Version. It needed to be edited to make sense. Multiple Jedi Masters drawing out a Sith from hiding—which was their ultimate goal—are not just going to stand around with lightsabers drawn, listening. I mean just look at ROTS when Mace and Friends encounter Palpatine. In order for it to actually work well Traya had to control them, because elsewise they would attack. Other than that this is cherry-picking. Essentially you are saying I accept this as canon, except this one scene. That’s bad form in general in RL when dealing with canon material. Could I take an episode of TCW and say that 5 minutes are non-canon because I disagree with them? No, I can’t. The Malgus’s example is quite different for a variety of reasons, but I’ll only discuss the most relevant here. Wave is a push it requires no duration. Traya’s choke in the cutscene is not only over a duration, but it builds as she talks about each master individually—in the original she does not individualize she jumps straight to the point.

 

 

 

 

 

I’m going to need to see canon sources for Nox using Phase Walk too, that’s a game mechanic. Cloaking would be a good advantage, yes, but the problem is that neither of them would last long at all against Krayt. Alone, Traya would be cut down with a blade or killed with Lightning rapidly. Nox would not stand against Krayt’s telekinesis or Lightning for long at all and his bladework would not match Krayt’s either. Neither can afford to set up an ambush because the other would not survive for long enough.

 

 

 

Phase walk is a class ability, and well:

1. Your points about advanced classes seems fair, essentially it only determines their load out, they still have access to all the skill sets and abilities of the alternate class as far as they are able to apply them.

 

The overall issue is that both Traya and Nox display considerable utility. That Krayt alone cannot match. Nox can deflect lightning, and add too that a power boost from ghosts can essentially do considerable damage. Both can heal, cloak, and move to keep distance. Traya was able to destroy—in both restored and original TSL—Jedi Council members with the Force—original total 3, restored total 4. Krayt has not faced an enemy alone that has a similar feat

.

 

Sion vs Wyyrlok

 

Regarding Sion, you’re… you’re wrong.

 

Perhaps the most rage-filled Sith Lord yet encountered, Darth Sion is a shattered mesh of flesh and bone. Sion is in constant pain, but his body is held together by will and fury

Sion isn’t cunning or tactful, he’s a brute warrior. He does what he wants unless someone is there to force him into submission. Do you call challenging Darth Nihilus cunning? Thinking he can take Traya alone, cunning? The man rushes head first into every single encounter and would be a plaything for Wyyrlok to enjoy.

 

Wyyrlok himself is far more powerful than Sion could ever hope to be. He is the second most powerful Sith lord in the empire of the One Sith, a Sith Order that is 10,000 strong. Sion has no accolades and certainly no feats that place him on the level of Wyyrlok. As a saber duelist, Wyyrlok lasted a few panels against Krayt and a was fighting “Off-screen” for a while too, he put up a good fight against Krayt which puts him above Sion as a duelist as well.

 

What interests me about Sion is the fact he may indeed abandon your team. There are no rules that force team members to fight together or even to stay as a team, and certainly none that stop him from attacking your own team members.

 

He never fought Traya because he could not stand against her, but now Krayt is attacking her, what side is he to chose? Fight some Sith who he has never met before, whose names he only knows? Or to fight the woman he detests with a passion. Especially with Sion, the only price for his betrayal of her would be “killed” only to be reborn himself shortly.

 

“Sion's chaotic wrath is directed towards Sith and Jedi alike."

 

“No longer do your whispers crawl within my skull…”

 

“She is a fool who has escaped death once, she will not do so again.”

 

Sion tried to kill her again when she returned to Malachor. She destroyed him with Telekinesis, but he still detested her and tried to make sure the Exile would not reach the core, as Sion wanted to take that from Traya. He could never challenge her alone, but when Krayt arrives to take her on he will see his opportunity and seize it.

 

What past evidence suggests Wyyrlok would need to devote himself that much to mentally assaulting someone? He wanted Krayt to writhe in pain in front of the Sith to finally prove himself superior, he showed no signs of needing huge concentration that suddenly makes him derp around and be open to fire.

 

I also need a quote on Sion gaining an amp from nearby force sensitives, the assasins do but Sion’s drain appears to be entirely different to that.

 

Sion was able to hunt and kill Jedi for over forty years (Great Sith War vet) while there was a Jedi organization known as the Jedi Covenant that was actively searching for signs of Sith and taking up Sith Relics. Yet he remained completely off the chart, never found. Also he managed to smuggle himself on board the Harbringer—a Republic warship—by playing dead. He ambushed the Exile on Korriban as well. Is that not cunning? Yes, he is rage incarnate because it is how he keeps himself alive, not because he is a brute.

 

Using number accolades to boost someone’s apparent ability is never a good thing. The Brotherhood of Darkness on Ruusan was large, but it was viewed as weak by Bane. The Banite Sith were few in number but the most powerful Sith in history. So being second most powerful out of 10,000 could be a whole lot less impressive than it sounds. Did Wyyrlok beat Krayt in the saber portion of their contest…no. So it still stands that Sion could beat him in a duel. Even then Sion could simply outlast Wyyrlok due to his undying body.

 

The issue with your analysis of Sion is that he does view Traya as his master. Traya’s return put him under her will. The issue was his feelings for the Exile not some innate ire against Traya. But it still stands; he is her apprentice and will in this case do what she says. I mean he never killed anyone on his team, unlike Wyyrlok and Krayt. What is keeping them from killing each other, anyways? It seems to me that after all that Wyyrlok did to take control of Krayt’s empire that in the spirit of being a Sith Krayt would have to remove Wyyrlok because of that affront and to prove he was the better Sith.

 

 

 

[ Talon vs Cipher Nine

 

Honestly, you have no proof that Cipher Nine can face off against Talon alone. The idea that Arden Kothe is more powerful than her is frankly laughable, and in canon, Cipher Nine had one of his/her companions when facing Arden and Jadus. Many of her companions were trained killers who could have easily given Arden trouble alone, the idea of her taking a Jedi on with SCORPIO or Vector is not foolish. The idea of her managing it alone is.

 

Either way, Talon is far superior to Kothe, even he admits how rusty his abilities were and he was barely Knight level. Jadus was distracted and trying not to kill Cipher since he needed the codes. Talon on the other hand has dueled some of the most skillfull duelists of her era, deflected blaster fire from point blank range and more.

 

She has killed individuals with Force Wound, including a very powerful Imperial Knight master. She has killed people with Lightning and blasted them with Telekinesis. She is a proficient Force user capable of rag-dolling Cipher nine with minimal difficulty. Sorry to disappoint.

 

Companions are an optional game mechanic that don’t have to be used. Cipher 9 could have easily done their entire story alone. And anyways the agent did not have SCORPIO until after facing Kothe—Belsavis is in Chapter 3, Kothe is in 2…well I guess you could kill him in 3 on Corellia, but I’ve never done it. What evidence is there that Jadus needed the codes from the fight? I mean if they were only in the agents head then, yes, he would need to keep them alive, but if they weren’t then he could have done as he pleased. Throw in the fact that the agent could have used the codes before they fight him makes that go easy reason seem irrelevant—in fact the agent sabotages his ship so it makes it even more confusing as to why Jadus would not try to kill them. Or even better the agent could have just talked Jadus into going into exile—epic feat right there making someone abandon their life’s work and walk away. As well throw in the fact that Cipher 9 could have fought Force users like Revan and Malgus and they have a good resume at killing powerful Force Users.

 

Talon’s Force Wound feat was a close range and while not actively engaged in other combat, in fact most of her most impressive feats are when she has not been engaged. Here though she will be, the agent has experience with fighting Force Users, as well as a variety of tools to help them. They will not just be running this with a gun.

 

Teamwork

 

Honestly what you need to realise is that Nox and Traya have never met and know nothing about each other. Nox and Traya will not fight together which simply makes it easier for Krayt to divide and conquer them. While yes, Wyyrlok and Krayt may not be on the best terms, they’re smart and both dedicated to victory. The team has fought together numerous times.

 

While yes, Talon would try to save Krayt, I don’t know why that’s a bad thing? She is capable of rapid telekinetic assaults or Lightning barrages. She, Wyyrlok or Krayt can all punish one of your team members if they dare try to take the upper hand.

 

Your team also cannot use telepathy, TP becomes far harder when you do not know the mind you are communicating with. In fact, Traya has never used it in combat. What’s more is the Exile was shocked and dazed the first times Traya tried to talk in her mind, if Traya tries it on Nox, the confusion may well lead to Nox’s death.

 

Paragraph 1: So if they don’t fight together are they fighting separate targets? Are they both attacking him? Is one of them just picking flowers? If they’re not fighting him then someone else will be in a 2v1, Wyyrlok or Talon. If they are both fighting him then they are working together. Or are they just spread out which in that case means that Krayt will have to move towards one and away from the other. Which actually would in theory make it easier to deal with him because his back will always be towards one.

 

Paragraph 2: Well I mean what good is Talon if she goes and abandons her fight. Turning her back for just long enough for something lethal to happen to her. Or sacrificing herself to keep Krayt up. Either wat she’s out.

 

Paragraph 3: Yeah, Nox who has multiple minds talking to them at once, getting killed by another mind talking to them seems completely plausible. /sarcasm

 

“Taking down Talon”

 

 

Yes, Talon is firstly a duelist. She is also however a titan of force power, she’s strong, fast and adept. Has a vast array of powers and has shown herself to be incredibly proficient in them at the same time. She rag-dolled an Imperial Knight master with her abilities, the guard of the Princess of the Fel empire. This guard would have been one of the strongest Imperial Knights around, yet Talon took her down with no effort shown.

 

I agree that Nox and Traya would beat Talon. Neither however would beat her quickly, which is important, because if either of Nox and Traya are facing Talon, Krayt is devastating one of the others alone. He would kill them far faster than they would kill Talon.

I’ve already discussed Cipher vs Talon, but as for Sion… Sion is a good duelist, not great though, we don’t know what lightsaber style he wields or how proficient he is with it. He knew the Exile’s form inside and out, he confirmed as much on Korriban, but was still unable to beat her when she was less than half trained. So no, I don’t believe Sion to be a match for Talon.

 

Talon also actually has good Force feats while Sion has none. You could not possibly argue he was her superior in the force when she has dismissed master level opponents with her force powers with ease.

 

Sion has one feat akin to that and it was on an intensely powerful Dark Side Nexus.

 

I disagree completely regarding your assessment of Talon vs Nox and Traya. Both have shown ability to take out powerful individuals quickly with the Force. Talon’s greatest weakness is in dealing with Force attacks. Getting thrown around and hit with rocks on numerous occasion. Nox has shown to be able to deflect lightning. In reality I could see either of them incapacitating her quickly just by sure virtue of past feats with the Force vs her lack of defensive feats.

 

“Wounding Wyyrlok”

 

Wyyrlok is being underrated here again. He’d be a good match for Traya in the force, however he is also a very good lightsaber duelist on top of this. He would slowly make his way to Traya while fighting her with the force.

 

I also need you to source that she can redirect Lightning without a lightsaber, very few Sith or Jedi in history have managed this and I need a source.

 

You cannot merely state Nox has more Arcane knowledge due to her seat on the council, Wyyrlok has been confirmed to have engrossed himself in knowledge from across the aeons, his sorcery knowledge will eclipse hers, and his natural force ability rivals hers as well. I’ve covered most of the rest of this earlier however, I think it’s obvious now how powerful Wyyrlok is and that he would compare to Traya or Nox. I also think it’s foolish to think Cipher Nine would survive any amount of seconds against him, she would not.

 

 

I’m actually not even going to reply to your Krayt section specifically, since I’ve shown why I disagree and hopefuly you’ve gained much greater respect for him due to my earlier sections.

 

As for the Nature of a 4v3:

 

 

 

This is correct, those battles could happen. What’s important to note though is that if Traya faces Krayt with anyone other than Nox, she will not survive, and the other matches become more even. No 2 man combination could beat Krayt in this scenario except perhaps Traya and Nox, but when Traya and Nox fight him the other two battles will finish before that one.

 

If for example, Traya fought him with Cipher Nine, he’d kill the Cipher in an instant, beating Traya faster than Nox or Wyyrlok beat the other. If Sion and Traya face Krayt, Sion will not even try to defend Traya from Krayt’s wrath, and would perhaps even join him. If Traya faces Krayt alone, and one of the other matches turns into a 2v1, your team could perhaps win that battle as fast as Krayt beats Traya. What’s massively important to note there though is that Traya is a far bigger loss to your team than Wyyrlok would be to mine, as once she is down, you have no combination that can stand up to Krayt, and Krayt and Talon’s teamwork suddenly becomes even more important.

 

As for battle strategy itself, Krayt will not leave himself open. He has fought in major group scenarios before on multiple occasions without leaving himself open, examples being:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636322-screen+shot+2015-06-18+at+4.07.05+pm.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636349-screen+shot+2015-04-21+at+9.44.10+pm.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212701/4636350-screen+shot+2015-06-02+at+11.35.12+pm.png

Krayt has only ever left himself open when facing an opponent that he is struggling to beat. When facing a 2v1 he will not be in that mindset, and when facing a 1v1 he will be winning enough to also not be in that mindset. Not to mention Talon and Wyyrlok would both be watching his back and would notice if Cipher or Nox were to disappear from the fight.

 

Talon’s force defenses are not weak, and your team cannot “burst” her without leaving yourselves majorly open to attacks from Krayt or Wyyrlok. She is also a very durable combatant in general and would be massively difficult to kill.

 

 

Honestly, sorry that this took me so long and sorry that I doubt I can respond again for a few more days. Summer is always super busy for me and this weekend is even more so. Had a fun debate though, if it's called now or after your post, thanks for the fun

 

In regards to Wyyrlok

 

V Traya: I disagree on the scenario. Wyyrlok seems to be someone who plants their feet in the ground when it comes to using the Force. As well I don’t doubt that Traya could dominate him with the variety of tools she brings to the table, far more recorded for her than him.

V Nox: Like I said before from what he has shown Wyyrlok looks a lot like Thanaton. Previous examples still stand, as well as the fact that Nox has more and better lightning feats than him, a good understanding of Ancient Sith Knowledge, as well as the power of the ghosts.

V Cipher 9: Cipher 9 has a certain set of skills and tools that allow them to survive against Wyyrlok. Shields, grenades, stealth belt can all help to keep the agent up—so can kolto or healing abilities from every other character on the team.

 

 

4v3 Response:

1. Krayt can get backstabbed or surprised. Not just because of the abilities of members of the team, but also because he has, in the past, focused on one individual in a fight where multiple people are involved or when he was focusing someone missed an upcoming surprise attack from someone else.

2. By Force defenses I mean Talon’s ability to protect herself from Force attacks, in which case she has shown little to no ability other than having a very hard head. She has been thrown around, hit by rocks, etc. As well I don’t need her dead only knocked out—although dead is better—in that case just stab her through the gut, poison her, blind her and hit her with a rock, electrocute her, rib into her mind, etc.

3. Now I’m curious if Traya tried to do some telepathy on the other team for lols, if it almost killed Surik it could wreck some serious havoc.

Edited July 4, 2015 by karadron

[cs_zoltan]

Dat format tho.

[Aurbere]

If neither of you have anything left to say, I might move things on to the next stage. I'll be out for the day, so if no one's made anything by the time I return, then I'll move things on.

 

So get going while you have the chance!

 

Edit: Basically just make any concluding remarks on why your team wins. Nothing too grand, really.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Aurbere

[Selenial]

Bah, I'm not going to have access to a computer in time, but I might make a bullet point list of stuff that really stands out from his post (I feel I need to since he's had 4 posts and I've had 2). I know you hate bullet points but deal with them, Aurbere

[Aurbere]

Bah, I'm not going to have access to a computer in time, but I might make a bullet point list of stuff that really stands out from his post (I feel I need to since he's had 4 posts and I've had 2). I know you hate bullet points but deal with them, Aurbere

 

Go ahead. No worries at all.

[Selenial]

1. Power scaling is valid, when not used in excess. The fact is that Krayt is confirmed to be far and a way above his subordinates specifically in lightning and Telekinesis, so their feats apply to him perfectly. Just because in his fight with Wyyrlok, there wasn't a shuttle, doesn't mean he couldn't have thrown one at him... When you have a canon quote that specifically says he's better than them at X and Y, chosing to ignore it because it's not a feat is ludicrous. You can't base a match on feats alone....
    
    
   
2. Sion killing multiple force users doesn't put him on the level of Talon, and so far you've yet to find anything else that does. None of the people he's killed had any feats or prior showings, and the fact he only survived a half trained Surik is simply proof that a lot of his kills would have come from re animating when his opponents were not expecting it...
    
    
   
3. You chose Nox as a force using combatant, you can't try and say her Lightsaber abilities match her force usage. That's called cheating the system. Krayt may primarily enjoy being a duelist, yes, but that does not mean Traya can just abuse him with the force. Have you not heard of Force Barriers? Dooku primarily duels but is still on the level of Traya in terms of force ability. He's a duelist, would attack with a blade first, but could not be rag-dolled by her...
    
    
   
4. In this scenario, the forest favours Krayt. Traya has rag-dolled council members that are duellists by nature, they were all confirmed to be more duellists than force users. To be able to force wave them is impressive. To do what she did to Brianna and Visas on a Dark Side Nexus is impressive too. Not Krayt level telekinesis however, and there is no proof whatsoever that she could throw around collapsed Trees on a whim. Krayt can.
    
    
   
5. You're kind of just giving Traya feats that she doesn't have. Where's your proof she can manipulate someone mid-combat? Why didn't she do so against Surik? she's a strong telepath but I'm not seeing a shred of proof that she can do so in combat.
    
    
   
6. What's an interesting point is that Krayt can feed off emotions. Sion is a seething bag of emotions, I've sourced that numerous times. If Krayt feeds off his hatred, he's going to be gaining a nice and tasty amp, which is great because he's already the most powerful Force User here by far.
    
    
   
7. You're using fanon, and that's foolish. The fact of the matter is that they changed the original scene for their own enjoyment, and they have no affiliation with Lucasarts. The entire modification is designed to restore missing parts of the game, that wasn't missing, they simply changed it because they didn't agree with the way it was done. I've already had this discussion with Beni, using it as canon above the game is biased, poor form and desperate.
    
    
   
8. Even then, Lonna Vash does not survive either way. She dies on M4-78, so Traya still only did it to three council members. Shame that Krayt has a better feat in the form of rag-dolling a more powerful force user (Nihl) with minimal effort and no signs of fatigue.
    
    
   
9. Sion survived to spite Traya. He wanted Surik dead because Traya wanted Surik alive and wanted her to make it to the core unopposed. Sion did not agree, he's not exactly loyal to her. Wyyrlok killed Krayt because Krayt was dying of a natural death, and his death would leave the sith fragmented and would destroy the order. Wyyrlok even expresses regret, saying that he must kill Krayt or the Sith's hold on the galaxy would forever be destroyed.
    
    
   
10. She took a companion, deal with it. The hero of tython had to take Kira to confront Angral, the whole point of the companion crew is that they go together and work together. Please don't say you honestly think Jadus would lose to the agent alone...
     
     
    
11. Nox's mind has faltered her in combat before, the whole point of the Voss arc was to make sure she could block out their constant chatter as it was drowning her in her own mind... Traya randomly piping up in her head isn't going to happen with no reactions.
    

 

Hopefully that's enough.

[Beniboybling]

The categories are credit scores used to choose combatants is hardly valid material for argument Sel.

 

If Karadron can prove it, its perfectly game.

[Selenial]

The categories are credit scores used to choose combatants is hardly valid material for argument Sel.

 

If Karadron can prove it, its perfectly game.

 

Except when Nox should be a 40-45 if she can duel, it's entirely relevant.

 

She was capped at 30 because she supposedly can't wield a Lightsaber as well as her force abilities. If you're going to argue she can use a blade to the level of duelling that it's even relevant to this discussion, we're going to have problems.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Except when Nox should be a 40-45 if she can duel, it's entirely relevant.

 

She was capped at 30 because she supposedly can't wield a Lightsaber as well as her force abilities. If you're going to argue she can use a blade to the level of duelling evenly with Wyyrlok, we're going to have problems.

Supposedly, if Karadron can prove otherwise then that's our fault not his. We can't honestly bar people off from making certain arguments in this manner, that's just silly.

 

I mean, unless we are about to decide who wins each duel based on their credit scores?

 

But what so bad about dueling evenly with Wyyrlok? Isn't he a level 30 Force combatant as well? Heck if we are bringing credit scores into the argument, they should be equal saber duelists by default, surely.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Beniboybling