Everyone's favorite topic - SGR!

[sentientomega]

Like that other person who quoted me, you took that completely out of context; I was talking of the REACTION of anti-gay groups to the possibility of SGRs in swtor, and that if I were in BW's shoes I'd feel not a little frightened by the fury of said hate groups myself, and it's not the people I hate, it's their venom and their willingness to do LGBT people as much harm and/or cause them as much grief as possible; but you're not interested in that, or my attempts to clarify anything I've said like in the below posts.

 

1. http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8277073&postcount=4159

 

2. http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8276968&postcount=48

 

Post number 2 came after the one you're quoting, but I see you didn't bother to read what it said, nor number 1; you can't stand to see me being so calm and rational, so it didn't compute.

 

I suppose I could go through it all again for you, in a manner that would leave no room whatever for misinterpretation. But clearly, you're not interested in anything other than pouncing on anything I say that sounds remotely militant so you can feel justified in launching a verbal offensive; who's being disingenuous now...?

 

I even apologised to you in one of above posts, but that seems pointless because it seems that I cannot get through to you; Foelhe, Xilizhra, Xonell and I have been trying to make our positions clear in the best way we know how, we have bent over backwards not to sound like extremists, but clearly you don't want to know.

 

The last thing I'm going to say to you is, that despite the fact that you hate me, people with whom I just happen to agree, and that you long to do violence to me is this: I hope the government of Quebec ceases its political discrimination toward you and other mainly-English-speaking residents of your province, because you and they deserve MUCH better from a body politic who treats people who prefer a certain language like dirt.

 

Now, finally; I'm done getting into mud-fights with you, good day to you.

 

Dear BioWare staff: I'm done talking to this person (Diviciacus) now and, unfortunately, for the foreseeable future.

 

@ Literally anybody else: Now, to get back on topic, I'd be quite sorry if Theron Shan didn't make it to KOTFE because he was a real pleasure to work with alongside; even though I'd not flirt or undertake a romance with him, he'd still be a valued colleague.

Edited June 26, 2015 by sentientomega

[Criosdh]

How is it homophobic or sexist if they choose not to add SGR? It just means that it wasn't on their list of top priorities for the expansion so better luck next time.

You kinda have to wonder in these discussions if the game romance is people's only form of "intimate interaction.":rak_02:

 

It's a political statement. There was some new MMO coming out on the market (can't remember the name, a friend posted about it in another forum) that didn't even have romance options in it and someone had already started a complaint about the lack of SGR in the game. Obviously they were quickly made a fool out of but it's pretty obvious it's more about politics than immersion. Personally I think "romances" in a game are ridiculous anyway but it's the politics of it all that annoys me. Does anyone here really think that if 5% of the population got mad about anything other than some political hot topic like SGR that they would get anything changed? Do you think that 5% of the population would even get noticed? Yeah right, the stronghold slot machine issue was only 4.5% unhappy customers. That's why they left it uber nerfed lol.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Criosdh

[Diviciacus]

Alright, let's do things right, here.

 

First, I apologize to sentientomega for losing my temper. That rarely happens, but it happens, and it is also no excuse.

 

Second, that rumor of LGBT content being cut due to Christian lobbyists is indeed as I said, baseless - you'll note that Mass Effects 1 and 2, Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 were already published by this point under the EA banner, which all include SGR content. I was part of the closed beta testers for TOR from the very first waves in late spring/early summer 2011, and SGR content never made it to a state where players could access it. The closest I was ever able to reconstruct between Bioware's posts on the subject and datamined info was that certain companions might have been originally intended to be SGR (Quinn and Kaliyo, notably - I think that's why Quinn's "real" romance as we have it is so obviously and disturbingly rapey), but it was scrapped before it ever made it into any beta build. Why? It was almost certainly EA, but not for the reason(s) they've been accused of in this thread.

 

No, EA as publisher forced a December 20, 2011 live release date on Bioware as developer... as early as July 2011. Content had to be cut to make the deadline (rumors originally had a spring 2012 release pegged), and I'm sorry for the LGBT community, but you guys comprise 10% of the population. What I mean by that is, roughly 10% of the population doesn't self-identify as purely straight, at least according to Nature, the most prestigious biological and natural science peer-reviewed journal in the world. So, I think that's where the hammer fell first. Removing content that at most 10% of people can self-identify with is just good business if you have to cut something, even if it is disappointingly amoral business. (Looking at you, Cutler Beckett.)

 

Third, sentientomega, I don't care what the context was for your comment, nor does it truly matter - you should never have said it, and you should be ashamed for having done so. Comparing the lack of SGR content in a single video game to the Holocaust is inexcusable, indefensible, and if you're actually serious with what you said, I honestly suggest you see a psychologist. It's a pretty psychopathic sentiment.

 

Fourth, congratulations on same-sex marriage being legalized by your supreme court, American peoples! YAY! BE HAPPY! WEAR COLORS! GET ****IN' MARRIED! At least your country recognizes the validity of all same-sex marriage. A couple of years ago, Canada passed a law where same-sex marriages performed in Canada, but wherein the married couple's home country they are illegal, were all annulled. Thousands of couples from conservative and/or religiously-controlled nations suddenly were no longer married - even if they had dual citizenship. That was the first time I had ever cared about something political enough to march on Parliament Hill in protest and demonstration.

 

Fifth, I hope there is SGR companion content in the upcoming expansion. I do. I also hope it's more than just Lana Beniko. Someone needs to get some allergy meds. Like I said before, I love TOR, I love the community (except that one guild on Ebon Hawk that's racist against Sith Purebloods - **** those people). Anything that makes more people want to play and want to spend their money on the game is a great thing! Because more people and more income means more and better content. It's a positive feedback loop.

[Xilizhra]

Third, sentientomega, I don't care what the context was for your comment, nor does it truly matter - you should never have said it, and you should be ashamed for having done so. Comparing the lack of SGR content in a single video game to the Holocaust is inexcusable, indefensible, and if you're actually serious with what you said, I honestly suggest you see a psychologist. It's a pretty psychopathic sentiment.

Given the rather specific standards for psychopathy, I'm fairly sure that you just did exactly the same thing by characterizing her statement as "psychopathic" (as opposed to, say, "obnoxious" or "poorly-spoken").

 

Don't worry, I don't see you as an enemy. This really started because I disagreed with your opinion on Vette.

[TyonYlle]

Fourth, congratulations on same-sex marriage being legalized by your supreme court, American peoples! YAY! BE HAPPY! WEAR COLORS! GET ****IN' MARRIED! At least your country recognizes the validity of all same-sex marriage. A couple of years ago, Canada passed a law where same-sex marriages performed in Canada, but wherein the married couple's home country they are illegal, were all annulled. Thousands of couples from conservative and/or religiously-controlled nations suddenly were no longer married - even if they had dual citizenship. That was the first time I had ever cared about something political enough to march on Parliament Hill in protest and demonstration.

 

 

I couldn't agree more! I don't normally enter into these arguements (personally I think they're silly).

 

I mean, I to, would love me some SGR, specifically since if Vette swung both ways, my smuggler might be inclined to do the same. Having more than just Lana and Theron would be awesome, I'll agree. However, is it really so important that we need to fight and argue, and throw petty insults over? I don't think it is. I mean, our state-wide frands should just be happy they are able to get married, finally, and know in time other media will hopefully become more open.

 

Here in Australia, it's still not legal anywhere for us. So, let me pose this question. Would you rather be able to get married, or would you rather have a SGR fictional romance?

Edited June 27, 2015 by TyonYlle

[GeneralRhodes]

There's no logical reason to oppose it beyond increasingly ephemeral marketing concerns.

 

Thats bs and you know it

 

I can't help but wonder if Rhodes didn't completely take my remarks out of context, did they even bother to read that section I quoted? It's the anti-gay hate groups I was attacking;

 

I didn't take anything out of context. You said what you said, period. and you were attacking anybody who disagreed with you.

 

You won't hear anyone saying "Death to straights!" unless they're an agent-provocateur acting for anti-gay hate groups, an idiot or completely insane; which makes me wonder, why would Rhodes take my comments out of context in the first place?

 

Actually i've seen quite a few people make 'death to straights' comments in the past, and 'death to whites' among other things. Don't try to feed me this 'they're insane' bs. There are plenty of sane people who say it and mean it. I took nothing out of context and its an insult to peoples intelligence to claim such. By the way, take a good look at a certain incident at a certain university in the UK recently. Remember who was being excluded from a certain diversity event? straight white males. In fact it was specifically stated, followed by quite a few belittling comments and encouragement from the person who started it. and shes not the only one who pulls that kind of crap

 

A game full of straight characters and no LGBT characters at all is apparently NOT problematic

 

Correct. It isn't problematic. Games are just that, games. The sexuality of a character in a game doesn't mean squat. You want a reason not to add it? How about the fact that such things have zero to do with most games, therefore adding them has no purpose and is a waste of developer time and resources

 

It's like if Xena was scripted as a gay character when that show as made (90s), I guarantee someone would've burnt the studios down at the very least; as well as the usual anti-gay rhetoric pouring forth in every medium...

 

Thats a very odd statement considering xena has been considered a gay icon since just about day one.

 

And if you think I'm the aggressor, ask yourself how much violence is done against straight people in a heterophobic context, and then ask yourself the same about LGBT violence that is homophobically motivated a stated above; I'll give you a clue, one of them is pretty much unheard of outside a minute circle of researchers.

 

I'll give you another clue: the media doesn't report such things. You know that just as well as I do. In fact i've seen it happen more than once with my own eyes. You think straight people have some kind of monopoly on hate crimes. It works both ways and happens alot more frequently than you would like to admit

 

Like that other person who quoted me, you took that completely out of context;

 

No, we didn't. and claiming otherwise is no different that calling us stupid

 

I was talking of the REACTION of anti-gay groups to the possibility of SGRs in swtor, and that if I were in BW's shoes I'd feel not a little frightened by the fury of said hate groups myself

 

No you weren't. and you want to talk about a company being frightened about hate groups? how about all those boycotts and incidents with organizations like GLAAD and what they do to people and companies that have beliefs or make statements that they don't like

 

You do realize that a lot of them were killed for being gay, yes?

But, of course, watch out, we got a bad-*** over here.

 

Compared to the other targeted groups, very few were killed for being gay actually. but that has nothing to do with the fact that such statements should never have been made in the first place.

 

Its gotten to the point that both of these SGR threads need to be locked

[sentientomega]

Given the rather specific standards for psychopathy, I'm fairly sure that you just did exactly the same thing by characterizing her statement as "psychopathic" (as opposed to, say, "obnoxious" or "poorly-spoken").

 

Don't worry, I don't see you as an enemy. This really started because I disagreed with your opinion on Vette.

 

Diviciacus is not, and never has been, my enemy, either; his apology is noted but the mud-fighting must stop, and hence the following message I direct to anyone else reading this topic:

 

I'm only ashamed that I wasn't more specific in my original comments.

 

In fact, just so on-one thinks that's jumping to an extreme conclusion, I'd invite you all to google this headline detailing the results of a failed albeit alarming attempt to impose a present-day "final solution" regarding LGBTs:

 

 

California Judge Throws Out Ballot Initiative Calling For Execution Of Gay People

 

 

How I wish I could've been wrong...

 

I couldn't agree more! I don't normally enter into these arguements (personally I think they're silly).

 

Yes, and as such, I'm done defending myself.

 

Here in Australia, it's still not legal anywhere for us. So, let me pose this question. Would you rather be able to get married, or would you rather have a SGR fictional romance?

 

Here in Australia applies to us both, in fact. Given the strict choice of one of the other, real life is so much more important. I wouldn't've minded if relationships were not on swtor at all. Simply put, put relationships in a game, or don't put them in; but if you put them in, go the whole hog, it's not logical to merely adopt half-measures as has been done for the 1-50 part.

 

I mean, I to, would love me some SGR, specifically since if Vette swung both ways, my smuggler might be inclined to do the same. Having more than just Lana and Theron would be awesome, I'll agree. However, is it really so important that we need to fight and argue, and throw petty insults over? I don't think it is. I mean, our state-wide frands should just be happy they are able to get married, finally, and know in time other media will hopefully become more open.

 

Somewhere in the world, every day, people are dying over being LGBT-identified or LGBT-supportive; I leave you with that thought...

Edited June 27, 2015 by sentientomega

[Xilizhra]

Thats bs and you know it

No, I'm quite sure it's true.

 

Correct. It isn't problematic. Games are just that, games. The sexuality of a character in a game doesn't mean squat. You want a reason not to add it? How about the fact that such things have zero to do with most games, therefore adding them has no purpose and is a waste of developer time and resources

Then don't include romances at all. But there's no reason whatsoever to include romances, but only straight ones.

 

I'll give you another clue: the media doesn't report such things. You know that just as well as I do. In fact i've seen it happen more than once with my own eyes. You think straight people have some kind of monopoly on hate crimes. It works both ways and happens alot more frequently than you would like to admit

Enlighten us with your alleged (anecdotal) inside information, then.

 

No you weren't. and you want to talk about a company being frightened about hate groups? how about all those boycotts and incidents with organizations like GLAAD and what they do to people and companies that have beliefs or make statements that they don't like

Antidiscrimination laws have been a thing for quite some time; they're just starting to be fairly applied.

 

Compared to the other targeted groups, very few were killed for being gay actually. but that has nothing to do with the fact that such statements should never have been made in the first place.

Fewer gays than Jews.

 

Its gotten to the point that both of these SGR threads need to be locked

Silliness.

[Callaron]

There's also literally zero evidence that Theron Shan is in any way not present in the expansion for any reason. The sky is not yet falling, so stop crying about it - especially because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Do you seriously think the list of six characters (one of which is the PC) on the KOTFE site are the whole cast? seriously?

 

I'm not worried about it. I'm just saying that if it were the case, he'd have pretty good grounds to be pissed off.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Callaron

[Criosdh]

I haven't seen a single valid reason why extra content or options should be added for like 5% of the population. If 5% of the population was demanding housing, or a different mount system, whatever, everyone would be riding their butt about how unimportant 5% of the population is to the grand scheme of the game and thus no money or development time should be wasted on what they want. Let it be a political movement and ohhh lordy yes!!!

[Xilizhra]

I haven't seen a single valid reason why extra content or options should be added for like 5% of the population. If 5% of the population was demanding housing, or a different mount system, whatever, everyone would be riding their butt about how unimportant 5% of the population is to the grand scheme of the game and thus no money or development time should be wasted on what they want. Let it be a political movement and ohhh lordy yes!!!

Because the amount of effort it takes is miniscule to nonexistent, and for us, it's fun.

[SelinaH]

I haven't seen a single valid reason why extra content or options should be added for like 5% of the population. If 5% of the population was demanding housing, or a different mount system, whatever, everyone would be riding their butt about how unimportant 5% of the population is to the grand scheme of the game and thus no money or development time should be wasted on what they want. Let it be a political movement and ohhh lordy yes!!!

What makes you think that only people who are gay IRL would be interested in SGRs?

[Criosdh]

What makes you think that only people who are gay IRL would be interested in SGRs?

 

Why would they? Excluding the 40 year old virgin neck beard types that can't wait to girl on girl anything and everything they can, why would anyone RP (let's face it, that's what these romance options are) that?

Edited July 1, 2015 by Criosdh

[AKHadeed]

Same reason as I occasionally play dudes, or Cathar, or people who can move things with their mind.

 

I'm pretty comfortable RPing outside my personal confines. I'm pretty confident, and if I play a girl who hits on a girl, my husband doesn't need to worry. Especially since it's a character I'm writing.

 

...Besides, while Lana's pretty awesome, Theron's romance is cooler, so my dudes keep falling into it. I think the only one who's gone for Lana's been a chick so far...

[Cythereal]

Why would they? Excluding the 40 year old virgin neck beard types that can't wait to girl on girl anything and everything they can, why would anyone RP (let's face it, that's what these romance options are) that?

 

To see the story? Homosexual woman here and I've played a few romances in TOR - both male and female, and necessarily heterosexual.

[Criosdh]

To see the story? Homosexual woman here and I've played a few romances in TOR - both male and female, and necessarily heterosexual.

 

Story? There's no romance story in this game lol, not hetero or ****. It's like MAYBE 4 lines of unique dialogue and a black screen before a kiss. The romance stories in this game stunk slightly worse than they did in the Mass Effect series lol. Besides that in both games all the options felt forced. They're just there to say it was there. Hardly worth the effort and the controversy.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Criosdh

[Nightblazer]

The romance stories are ok, its not really a big deal for me, I just space bar through conversations with them anyway, I usually watch the class stories unfold, anything else I go space bar crazy. Edited July 1, 2015 by Nightblazer

[Cythereal]

Story? There's no romance story in this game lol, not hetero or ****. It's like MAYBE 4 lines of unique dialogue and a black screen before a kiss. The romance stories in this game stunk slightly worse than they did in the Mass Effect series lol. Besides that in both games all the options felt forced. They're just there to say it was there. Hardly worth the effort and the controversy.

 

Ah, so now we get to the heart of it. You don't like the romance stuff at all and don't want Bioware to spend time on it to begin with, straight or gay. There's been no controversy, either, just the usual panic-mongering from the people who make their living on making others frightened and angry.

 

Alas for you, different people enjoy different things.

[sentientomega]

Because the amount of effort it takes is miniscule to nonexistent, and for us, it's fun.

 

Right on! Plus it's the right thing to do...

 

Story? There's no romance story in this game lol, not hetero or ****. It's like MAYBE 4 lines of unique dialogue and a black screen before a kiss. The romance stories in this game stunk slightly worse than they did in the Mass Effect series lol. Besides that in both games all the options felt forced. They're just there to say it was there. Hardly worth the effort and the controversy.

 

I can't help but wonder if your notion of romance sounds more like soliciting...

 

Ah, so now we get to the heart of it. You don't like the romance stuff at all and don't want Bioware to spend time on it to begin with, straight or gay. There's been no controversy, either, just the usual panic-mongering from the people who make their living on making others frightened and angry.

 

Alas for you, different people enjoy different things.

 

Yes, without variety, there is just no fun and it is a tragedy that people actually feed on the negative emotions they seek to generate; almost like the Sith...

Edited July 1, 2015 by sentientomega

[Pietrastor]

I haven't seen a single valid reason why extra content or options should be added for like 5% of the population. If 5% of the population was demanding housing, or a different mount system, whatever, everyone would be riding their butt about how unimportant 5% of the population is to the grand scheme of the game and thus no money or development time should be wasted on what they want. Let it be a political movement and ohhh lordy yes!!!

 

So are you advocating to remove ranked PVP and/or HM and NiM raiding?

[Cythereal]

So are you advocating to remove ranked PVP and/or HM and NiM raiding?

 

I can get behind this. Hardcore raiding and PvP are enjoyed by only a small percentage of the game's population, so let's take those right out and use the resources for other things.

[Damask_Rose]

Why would they? Excluding the 40 year old virgin neck beard types that can't wait to girl on girl anything and everything they can, why would anyone RP (let's face it, that's what these romance options are) that?

 

You must lead a very sheltered life. A lot of guys (perhaps vast majority) are interested in girl on girl action and quite a few women are interested in guy on guy action.

[Pietrastor]

I can get behind this. Hardcore raiding and PvP are enjoyed by only a small percentage of the game's population, so let's take those right out and use the resources for other things.

 

And let's take out other aspects not enjoyed by majority until we reach the glorious point where every game tries to be the same streamlined COD cinematic lowest common denominator mess. Which almost happened during PS360 generation. Sure you want that?

 

My original post was obviously sarcastic, aimed to ridicule complaints about spending resources on multiple options/features in games.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Pietrastor

[Cythereal]

And let's take out other aspects not enjoyed by majority until we reach the glorious point where every game tries to be the same streamlined COD cinematic lowest common denominator mess. Which almost happened during PS360 generation. Sure you want that?

 

My original post was obviously sarcastic, aimed to ridicule complaints about spending resources on multiple options/features in games.

 

I know. I was joking.

[DeltaaXx]

Story? There's no romance story in this game lol, not hetero or ****. It's like MAYBE 4 lines of unique dialogue and a black screen before a kiss. The romance stories in this game stunk slightly worse than they did in the Mass Effect series lol. Besides that in both games all the options felt forced. They're just there to say it was there. Hardly worth the effort and the controversy.

 

Sorry pal, but romance is part of a story. Homosexual or Heterosexual romances are often put in stories. Why? Character development and character relationships. People can't just go around the galaxy saving it from horrible, deadly threats and NOT form a special bond with each other. It happens. Tolkien did it in LOTR with Sam and Frodo, (a bro-mance, not exactly romantic in this sense but still serves a purpose) Eowyn with Aragorn (even if he did tell her, he cannot give her what she wants). Bungie did it with Halo. Yes they did. The Master Chief and Cortana have a special relationship in which they will do whatever it takes to ensure the other's survival. Bioware has done this regularly, in Mass Effect, KoTOR, and Dragon. If you are seriously bothered by the romance in this in general, that speaks volumes about your character. It's actually not a huge deal. Good day sir.