karadron Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Not really, by the time the Republic actually responded, the Mandalorins had conquered many worlds and had the production capability to match the Republic. And there are numerous quotes that state it was solely Revan (Or in other cases, Revan and the Exile) who beat the mandalorians back. Not to mention that Revan's best victory wasn't even the mandalorians wars, it was turning every Jedi he turned, bending fleets to his will and subjugating any people who could stop his rise to power. Not to mention there's no actual evidence that Revan was at the Jaga's Cluster that I know of, just that his forces were there. Not that beating someone once is valid proof of superiority anyway. The Guide to Warfare gives a very different picture, and the Atlas as well. I won't deny that being charismatic is a good command trait, but it's hardly a good means to determine how good a tactician someone is. So what about this from the Atlas: Despite a setback at Jaga's Cluster versus Cassus Fett, Revan sacrificed thousands of Republic soldiers to uproot the Mandalorian headquarters from Onderon's moon Dxun. Seems to indicate they faced off and Revan lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Someone want to tell me what exactly is going on here? Bring me up to speed. Lol, it's only the 3rd page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Lol, it's only the 3rd page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Fine, this is what is going on: Revan vs Thrawn, and Revan's involvement in the Mandalorian War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Fine, this is what is going on: Revan vs Thrawn, and Revan's involvement in the Mandalorian War. I will ponder this and post my thoughts later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightShadowCz Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Canderous Ordo is praising Revan for his great tactics many times - he is saying that Revan was only reason why mandalorians were defeated . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 By where are we stopping here? Is this a Fleet only tacticians? Is there going to be a Ground based one too? Or is this encompassing all manner of tactical ability with both Fleet and Ground forces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) The Republic could have won without him. It had production capabilities and population--even technology--that the Mandalorians could not compete with. (Just look at the Atlas map to gauge the size). The fact that the Mandalorians beat the Republic as much as they did attests to the skills of their commanders. And Fett did beat Revan at Jaga's Cluster.And yet the Mandalorians were wiping the floor with the Republic before Revan entered the fray, in KOTOR Canderous makes it pretty clear that without Revan, they'd all be speaking Mandalorian. I don't think we are ever given an indication that the Republic could or would have one. That said let's focus on Thrawn at this point, still interested to here why Sel puts Revan above him. @Wolf is all encompassing. Edited June 22, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 That said let's focus on Thrawn at this point. Don't you want more candidates first? Or it's not a 3way like with force users? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) @Wolf is all encompassing. Not sure how this is gonna work then. How are we gonna do comparisons, when the fields of play would be totally different? You can't put a strict Fleet commander incharge of Ground Forces and expect them to gain victory and vice versa. Edited June 22, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Not sure how this is gonna work then. How are we gonna do comparisons, when the fields of play would be totally different? You can't put a strict Fleet commander incharge of Ground Forces and expect them to gain victory and vice versa.Well lets be honest only those who have mastered both fields are going to make the cut. That said though the fields of play are different, the merits of strategy are the same.Don't you want more candidates first? Or it's not a 3way like with force users?That is the plan, Thrawn and Revan seem stronger candidates, as well as Nek. Edited June 22, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 That said though the fields of play are different, the merits of strategy are the same.That is the plan, Thrawn and Revan seem stronger candidates, as well as Nek. Well I'm a noob in this category, but because I like him I'm gona nominate Ackbar for lulz (honsetly no idea how he stacks up to the other tacticians). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Well I'm a noob in this category, but because I like him I'm gona nominate Ackbar for lulz (honsetly no idea how he stacks up to the other tacticians). I know Beni doesn't want lists but... How I would rank some of the better known tacticians: Thrawn Nek Revan Pellaeon AckBar (He and Pellaeon are pretty darn close though) Edited June 22, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I know Beni doesn't want lists but... How I would rank some of the better known tacticians: Thrawn Nek Revan Pellaeon AckBar (He and Pellaeon are pretty darn close though) I'd toss Bel Iblis in there because he's accomplished on both sides. (Probably place him above Nek for that.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Well lets be honest only those who have mastered both fields are going to make the cut. That said though the fields of play are different, the merits of strategy are the same.That is the plan, Thrawn and Revan seem stronger candidates, as well as Nek. If we're going for those who have done both sides, then why are we discussing Thrawn or any other who was strictly a Fleet commander or Ground commander? Edited June 23, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Yeah I guess, but as I say its the principles of strategy really, I think they cross both fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 So Thrawn, Revan and Nek seem the strongest candidates for #1 at this point, so I'm going to raise these three for consideration. Other characters have been brought to the table but I don't believe as contenders for #1 spot. So, thoughts? Personally I'm favoring Thrawn, to put it in terms of the proposed system: Micro Capabilities: Has won countless victories in engagements he has personally commanded, and often against numerically superior foes, he personally spearheaded the aptly named Thrawn Campaign against the New Republic, and defeated a slew of skilled and alien tacticians in the Unknown Regions, demonstrating a great deal of adaptability and finally his remarkable ability to interpret the strengths and weaknesses of his opponents of various cultures by studying their artwork, which was proven in concept with a score of infalliably applied tactics and victories. Macro Capabilities: As a strategic mastermind, Thrawn's ability to command large scale confrontations was equally exceptional, masterminding his campaign against the more powerful and numerous New Republic with a mere fraction of the Imperial Army and making extremely effective use of the stateless strategy. Thrawn's strategies were extremely complex and multifaceted, and his complex campaigns made him very difficult to predict, leaving Thrawn always several steps ahead of his opponent, and altogether he readily outmaneuvered and outwitted them. Strategic Impact: Really it cannot be overstated, Thrawn was single-handedly responsible for the success of the Thrawn Campaign, in the space of a few weeks Thrawn almost toppled the New Republic, as Ackbar remarked "our war against the remnants of the Empire has changed from what was once called a mopping-up exercise to a battle for our very survival". And if it wasn't for the betrayal of his bodyguard, Thrawn would have likely won. This is all from Wookieepedia as my knowledge of Thrawn is second hand, so I expect there is a lot more than can be added, but altogether that is my bare bones case for why Thrawn should be #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 Bumping for thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OranoQuanteras Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Accolades... Thrawn's ability to work his way up to Grand Admiral as a non-human was made possible because the Emperor (Palpatine/Sidious) recognized his genius as a military strategist. Arguably one of his most famous battle maneuvers, the infamous "Thrawn Pincer" even made it's way into canon. See this video referencing Thrawn's influence on S1 Ep19 of TCW: http://www.starwars.com/video/storm-over-ryloth-episode-featurette Edited June 26, 2015 by OranoQuanteras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Wow did not know that. Ahsoka = Thrawn confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Wow did not know that. Ahsoka = Thrawn confirmed. Conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Well my opinion is 1. Thrawn 2. Nek A brief argument highlighting some of Nek's accomplishments (not including his role in the Vong War or his role in the downfall of Abeloth. Swarm War: He lead the Fifth Fleet, responsible for blockading the Utega Nebula. He predicted and countered the Killik breakout plan while managing to avoid a provocation of the Chiss. It was his plan and predictions that allowed Luke to get aboard the Admiral Ackbar and kill Lomi Plo, thereby ending the Swarm War. Up to that time it was his tactics that kept the Killik swarms at bay and defeated them in combat. Without him, the Killiks would have broken out of the Utega Nebula and war with the Chiss would have been inevitable. Second Galactic Civil War: He was the Supreme Commander of the GADF through this war. He masterminded the blockade of Corellia, predicted the Battle of Hapes then won that battle even as he was being told by Jedi that it wouldn't happen. He predicted then masterminded the battle of Kuat, which saw him end the Confederacy's best chance at winning the war, on his own. At the end of the war he decimated Cha Niathal's GA in exile fleet AND Daala's fleet at the same time over Roche after taking command after the start of the battle then proceeded to trap the Confederacy's fleet until the end of the Battle of Uroro Station. Without him, the Confederacy would have lasted decades, or even have won entirely especially with the internal turmoil of GA politics at the time. Also Ackbar was dead, Wedge was retired, Iblis was retired, Pellaeon was a politician by Nek's time and would die in the 2GCW, and Daala (and Cha Niathal at the same time) actually lost to Nek at Roche (where it was 6 fleets to Nek's 3). None of the retired folks made any major contribution to any of the wars except Pellaeon, who was mainly a diplomat and would later die during the 2GCW. After his victory at Roche, and the end of the 2GCW at the Battle of Uroro Station, Nek was so well respected by all sides that he was offered the job of Head of State right on the spot (he declined, he knew he wasn't a politician) and it was only with his endorsement that Daala ever got the job. Luke, Jacen, and several other tacticians asked Nek for advice all the time, btw. He was perhaps the single most influential figure in both wars outside Caedus and Luke and without him neither war would have been a win for the GA. I hope that blurb about Nek helps you better evaluate him. Edited June 27, 2015 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Eventually, somewhere down the line I'm going to nominate Grevious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 Good points Star, seems everyone is behind Thrawn bar Sel. And I could certainly get behind that Mudkip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I agree on previous thoughts: 1.Thrawn. 2.Nek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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