Selenial Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 What does purely for gameplay means? Abilities, really. For example, the abilities the Inquisitor has are there to create a differentiation between it and other classes. He doesn't have force choke as an ability, but we know he can use it to kill people from cutscenes. He doesn't have it as an ability because it's a warrior ability and that would effect gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Abilities, really. For example, the abilities the Inquisitor has are there to create a differentiation between it and other classes. He doesn't have force choke as an ability, but we know he can use it to kill people from cutscenes. He doesn't have it as an ability because it's a warrior ability and that would effect gameplay. So because cutscene abilities are not in gameplay does it mean that gameplay abilities are not in Lore? No it does not. Gameplay can not accept the story because of its limitation but story can its just a matter of creativity and that has no limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 So because cutscene abilities are not in gameplay does it mean that gameplay abilities are not in Lore? No it does not. Gameplay can not accept the story because of its limitation but story can its just a matter of creativity and that has no limit. Of course Gameplay abilities exist in lore, doesn't mean Nox has them though. Stop trying to argue with the LucasArts storyboard just so your favorite charcater is slightly more powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 So because cutscene abilities are not in gameplay does it mean that gameplay abilities are not in Lore? No it does not. Gameplay can not accept the story because of its limitation but story can its just a matter of creativity and that has no limit. Yeah, but when the game designers create flashy abilities for the sake of making the game cool, that doesn't mean they exist in canon. That's why I say abilities should be considered, but with limitaitons, We know the Wrath and Nox can use powerful TK because have a number of TK game abilities, and some times we see them use them on certain cutscenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Of course Gameplay abilities exist in lore, doesn't mean Nox has them though. Stop trying to argue with the LucasArts storyboard just so your favorite charcater is slightly more powerful. LucasArts stoyboard has no more power here they lost that when it made evertyhing besides the movie non cannon. Now there is no one dude who can decide this its all us and we should have made a pool for this. Nobody can decide now what is cannon or is not not even Lucas he gave up that right. According to current cannon there is no Sith empire or Galactic War. Edited July 18, 2015 by adormitul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 So because cutscene abilities are not in gameplay does it mean that gameplay abilities are not in Lore? No it does not. Gameplay can not accept the story because of its limitation but story can its just a matter of creativity and that has no limit. As someone who participated in countless PTS testing, even the closed 3.0 PTS, I can tell you that no one, not even the combat devlopers give half a **** about lore when they make changes or add new abilities to a class. For example when people said that sentinels and marauders need a 30m attack, they just gave them one. They didn't ponder if the HoT or the Wrath is proficient enough in TK to use dual saber throw. When Sages and Sorcs needed a defensive cooldown they just gave them one. They didn't think about if the Barshen'thor or Nox is poweful enough to erect a Barrier that can repel missiles, lightsabers, Telekinetic attacks, Sith Sorcery... If you really want to push this gameplay nonsense then earlier today I killed a Mara and Sorc 2on1 with my Merc. I guess Nox and Wrath are just pathetic excuse of a Sith then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 LucasArts stoyboard has no more power here they lost that when it made evertyhing besides the movie non cannon. Now there is no one dude who can decide this its all use and we should have made a pool for this. uh... well.. KOTOR and SWTOR used ot be C-cannon, now we're LEGENDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 That awkward moment when your IPhone autocorrects Force Wielders to Force Workers Anyway, I'll start up on that post now. Waiting for teh post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 As someone who participated in countless PTS testing, even the closed 3.0 PTS, I can tell you that no one, not even the combat devlopers give half a **** about lore when they make changes or add new abilities to a class. I think that from an early design standpoint, the Sith Warrior was the most grounded in the lore, most of his force abilities had appeared in movies, other than that he is mostly about ligthsaber attacks. I do think they were much crazy when designing powers for the Sorc, but if the game power are not considered C-Canon or Legends... then I the way I see it that makes Nox a much more dangerous duelists, because without his game power Nox is going to have to rely much more on his lightsaber prowess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Waiting for teh post. I'm 1800 words in and probably about 25% there.... Give me time, dear Though it might be more like 30%, since I'm at Lightsaber abilities for Nox which is basically one quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I hope I don't have to read more quotes from movie characters praising each other skills on novelizations that came out about a decade before SWTOR even existed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I hope I don't have to read more quotes from movie characters praising each other skills on novelizations that came out about a decade before SWTOR even existed Have to? No you don't have to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I hope I don't have to read more quotes from movie characters praising each other skills on novelizations that came out about a decade before SWTOR even existed Time length matters why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) As someone who participated in countless PTS testing, even the closed 3.0 PTS, I can tell you that no one, not even the combat devlopers give half a **** about lore when they make changes or add new abilities to a class. For example when people said that sentinels and marauders need a 30m attack, they just gave them one. They didn't ponder if the HoT or the Wrath is proficient enough in TK to use dual saber throw. When Sages and Sorcs needed a defensive cooldown they just gave them one. They didn't think about if the Barshen'thor or Nox is poweful enough to erect a Barrier that can repel missiles, lightsabers, Telekinetic attacks, Sith Sorcery... If you really want to push this gameplay nonsense then earlier today I killed a Mara and Sorc 2on1 with my Merc. I guess Nox and Wrath are just pathetic excuse of a Sith then. Well are they not? Barshen' thor was stronger in the force at 4 years then jedi teenager at 16. He used a jedi ritual that killed all its other users but not him. Nox has ancient sith ghosts and a enchanced body so yeah they can. Also try trowing 2 sticks at the same time against something did you need to be proficient to trow them? Also he probably needs to be proficient to bring them back in his hand because that is a very advanced force skill that only the best and trained can do not a young kid like Starkiller was when he did that in a cutscene. Edited July 18, 2015 by adormitul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I hope I don't have to read more quotes from movie characters praising each other skills on novelizations that came out about a decade before SWTOR even existed Doesn't matter when they came out as long as they're still applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Time length matters why? Well, people often bring up a quotes of a great duelists, praising another great duelists, and that is used to establish they are the best of all time. and I'm like "really?" First, many novels came out years before SWTOR was even in pre-production, the authors didn't even knew the about characters like wrath and nox because they didn't exist. Secondly, when getting praise for your skill as a duelist it makes sense that this is relative to other duelist contemporary to you and not people that live 3000 or 5000 years before you, it serves no practical purpouse for one since by the time of the movies anyone that lived in the Old Republic era should be dust, and secondly, even the oldest the Jedi such as Yoda was born thousands of years after the Galactic War and never met the duelists of that time. Edited July 18, 2015 by ChazDoit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Well, people often bring up a quotes of a great duelists, praising another great duelists, and that is used to establish they are the best of all time. and I'm like "really?" First, many novels came out years before SWTOR was even in pre-production, the authors didn't even knew the about characters like wrath and nox because they didn't exist. Secondly, when getting praise for your skill as a duelist it makes sense that this is relative to other duelist contemporary to you and not people that live 3000 or 5000 years before you, it serves no practical purpouse for one since by the time of the movies anyone that lived in the Old Republic era should be dust, and secondly, even the oldest the Jedi such as Yoda was born thousands of years after the Galactic War and never met the duelists of that time. There are holocrons and accounts of things like blade demonstrations though and while they alone don't provide a massive viewpoint, the out of universe statements do (e.g Yoda being the most powerful pre-Luke). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) There are holocrons and accounts of things like blade demonstrations though and while they alone don't provide a massive viewpoint, the out of universe statements do (e.g Yoda being the most powerful pre-Luke). And what did these holocrons say about the abilities and power of wrath and Nox, and do we know for a fact that they exist? I'm ok with taking into account out of universe statements, but Yoda was not the one in question here. Edited July 18, 2015 by ChazDoit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) That's like saying because Vader has never faced an Echani warrior, he wouldn't be able to defeat one in combat. He actually has, in fact he's actually beaten someone better than a mere Echani warrior and did it so by treating said person like a child. Edited July 18, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReiKai Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 It is stated that Sidious knew every dark side power ever, so no it's not... No, it's still a lie. Because there's no way to prove this statement. It's also just a borish copout from bad writers having to make things worse because George Lucas won't even let them get creative. Sid would have to demonstrate every power ever shown in the EU to prove this, and he never does. In fact, he doesn't show a fraction of them. Nvm that other abilities were invented and implemented into the EU/Games after such was claimed. The miscommunication and lack of communication between the writers only gives rise to a vast number of inconsistencies within the media. Isn't it confirmed in the ROTS novelization that Sidious is the strongest Sith in history, meaning by ROTS he is the strongest Sith to exist? EDIT: Never mind, just checked now and I can't find it but aren't his feats enough? History of what? The entire EU? Clearly not. The whole RoT Sith? Possibly. The problem is these statements are meaningless. It was a blanket statement that couldn't be proven. And none of Sid's feats at the time measured up events we know have occurred in past history. Like Naga Sadow igniting an unstable red giant into a super-nova, or casting mass illusions across multiple star systems. There are plenty of things that other Sith have done long before Sid, that he did not show the capacity to replicate until after Vader killed him in RotJ, and he comes back as the Retorn Emperor in a cloned body. Now, moving away from this, because Sidious is irrelevant here. Whatever Sid did happen to learn is irrelevant as he does not teach the same things to his apprentices, because he never intended for any of them to succeed him. Ultimately Dooku and Vader just don't have what it takes to win this. Some do forget that one of the first things Wrath and Nox did while just training on Korriban was taking out Terrentatek's in the tombs as part of their trials. Which're powerful force-resistant creatures. Things that, in KotoR1, had been noted that it would take 3 or more Jedi to hunt one down because they are so dangerous and is done with extreme caution. Yet this is one of the earliest things that these two as Acolytes had to overcome just to complete part of their trials. I have little doubt that if Anakin or Dooku tried to do the same during their initial training just to earn the title of Jedi Knight, that they'd both have been killed under such circumstances. Could they have succeeded later as we know them now? Most certainly. But at the early stages of their development? Not hardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Anyone else still laughing that this guy's arguments are literally "the sourcebooks are lying to us"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Anyone else still laughing that this guy's arguments are literally "the sourcebooks are lying to us"? I would be if he were joking Edited July 18, 2015 by PadsterPwns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Anyone else still laughing that this guy's arguments are literally "the sourcebooks are lying to us"? Everything besides the movie and the cartoons yeah even the CGI ones do not exist in Star Wars. We are now making comparation between characters that exist in a fictional universe where previous decisions about canon are null and void. There is no more c-cannon or any other kind there is only canon and non canon and we are talking about a comparation in the non canon universe. Edited July 18, 2015 by adormitul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Everything besides the movie and the cartoons yeah even the CGI ones do not exist in Star Wars. We are now making comparation between characters that exist in a fictional universe where previous decisions about canon are null and void. There is no more c-cannon or any other kind there is only canon and non canon and we are talking about a comparation in the non canon universe. Yeah, I don't know what's the point in using C-canon rules for this discussion (which has been used for the most part anyway) when C-canon doesn't even exist anymore. I don't see a big difference between the Old Republic Era and the Movie Era when it comes to technology, the force or ligthsaber techniques, so the only reason that one would undoubtely say that the creap of the crop of one era is better than other era is personal preference, or an appeal to popularity. And we weren't even talking about the creap of the crop to begin with (Sidous, Yoda), but rather, Sidious apprentices, Vader and Dooku. Edited July 18, 2015 by ChazDoit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Everything besides the movie and the cartoons yeah even the CGI ones do not exist in Star Wars. We are now making comparation between characters that exist in a fictional universe where previous decisions about canon are null and void. There is no more c-cannon or any other kind there is only canon and non canon and we are talking about a comparation in the non canon universe. Also the comics and novels which exist alongside the movies and cartoons that are being released. This also doesn't help the other team, considering Vader has shown to be more powerful now as he pretty much atomized several large Leyleks into gore among other things. He also has another series coming out, taking on the entire Rebellion and being quoting as going to cut loose with his power. Edited July 18, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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