Darth Vader and Darth Tyranus vs Darth Nox and Emperor's Wrath

[Canareth]

Vader's signature move is force choke, the guy forced choked a Moff through a hologram from light years away if I remember correctly.

 

Darth Baras does the same thing to deal with a minor annoyance.

 

I don't think Nox OR wrath would stand a chance. Dooku would easily keep the Wrath busy dueling sabre's, while Vader would just force choke Nox to death, then well, Vader + Dooku vs. Wrath?

 

There is no degree of Force attack one can expect to even harm a mature Nox. Thanaton gets wrecked multiple times despite knowing what he's dealing with and if he doesn't know a Dark Side attack, it doesn't exist. He had a good one-shot spell at the start of Nox's Act II but the final fight is way, way beyond that including a super Force Storm and Thanaton still can't hurt Nox with it.

 

And what, Vader is going to choke that guy, hoping to cause physical death? Nox will ignore it and arc weld the cyborg.

 

Vader isn't a Sith Sorcerer to begin with and has never fought one. Palpatine sure as heck didn't teach him.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Canareth

[Tankdoog]

He's mad, folks. Let him cool off in the naughty corner for a bit.

 

He either hasn't played SWTOR or he's just being willfully ignorant. What has the Consular done that shows more affinity in the force than Yoda? Was that even a real question? That's when I stopped and realized the tremendous waste of time any further dialog with him would be. On Taris he blasted through durasteel blast doors in a single force blast. He lifts huge structural beams and tosses them aside like nothing to save those researchers. Where Yoda has to concentrate and strain to stop that thing Dooku knocked over to occupy him while he escaped Geonosis. .

 

What has the Consular done that shows more affinity in the force than Yoda? Was that even a real question?

 

Yes, it is a real question. One you seem suspiciously reluctant to answer, presumably because you have no evidence to prove it.

 

In fact, you haven't proven any of your claims thus far.

 

On Taris he blasted through durasteel blast doors in a single force blast

 

And this is impressive...how? The Wrath did that as an apprentice...

 

He lifts huge structural beams and tosses them aside like nothing to save those researchers.

 

Firstly, that "structural beam" was only intact at the bottom. It was completely torn at the top, meaning the weight was unevenly distributed. Secondly, considering the fact that it wasn't even crushing the researchers outright means that it couldn't have even been that heavy.

 

Where Yoda has to concentrate and strain to stop that thing Dooku knocked over to occupy him while he escaped Geonosis.

 

So you conveniently ignore how that "thing" is dozens of feet tall and weighs several tons? Not only this, but that beam Dooku destabilized was obviously heavier than the one the consular lifted, considering it began to collapse under its own weight at the slightest rupture in its structure.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Tankdoog

[Jedikillar]

I read through like page 6, and these arguments are getting really repetitive, annoying, and insulting.

 

I don't like the movie periods, because they are basically given godhood through plot armor. Nonetheless, I can't simply dismiss them because I don't like them. Saying that someone is the best of the scrubs is all well and good...except the movie period had the most powerful beings ever. Luke, Yoda, Sidious, yes even Anakin/Vader, etc. Saying Dooku is one of the greatest of this era is greater than saying that our characters are some of the greatest of their eras(and even they need teams of 4+ to defeat the really powerful ones back then, who are less powerful than the most powerful of the movie era. IE: Malgus, Dread masters, Revan, etc).

 

Tyranus' skill with a saber was greater than the wrath or kallig's heir. Vader's skill with a lightsaber was likely greater than either of them as well, but for the benefit of the argument, I'll even say it's equal to the Wrath's. Vader demonstrated great proficiency with TK, and also was not a chump at surviving lightning despite his weakness to it. However, from what we have seen in game, I'd put the wrath's skill with TK slightly beneath Vader's, mostly because we have almost nothing to go on regarding his skill at employing it against force users(We have seen vader force grip force users many times). I

 

've never regarded Dooku's skill in the force very highly, but being a Rule of Two sith does merit him some benefit. I imagine his lightning was not particularly weak. The fact that yoda so teasily absorbed and redirected it, as well as the fact that it only seemed to slow down an immature Anakin implies to me it was not that great. I would really like to say Nox's lightning is more powerful...but unfortunately we simply don't have anything that really shows this. I feel Thanaton was greater than most give him credit for(Marr's statements regarding him, and his showing in the final inquisitor battle of throwing some sort of strange lightning storm that I've personally never seen anything similar to before), but all that shows is the Inquisitor is able to absorb and deflect lightning that probably was not near Dooku's level. Dooku's skill with TK was at least enough not to be manhandled by Yoda, which is impressive.

 

So far it's Dooku>Wrath in all areas. Vader is probably > wrath, but to make it a better fight, I'll say that because of his suit, Vader = wrath in lightsaber combat, but is > in force. Dooku > Nox in lightsaber combat. Dooku is either > or = Nox in force, difficult to call for certain due to a lack of hard evidence for Nox. As it stands, Dooku and Vader defeat Nox and Wrath, handily. Not a complete stomp, but not too hard either. I imagine it would be much like Anakin and Obi Wan in ROTS first battle as nox and wrath against Dooku with the added benefit of Vader....In other words, Dooku alone can nearly handle both of them, Obi wan as wrath being pretty much a nonfactor, leaving Nox unable to contend with the greater lightsaber skills of Dooku or Vader, much less both together.

 

 

The final wildcard is Nox's sorcery. We have no idea of Nox's skill or abilities in this area but it can easily be inferred that it's there. Dooku has no skill in it, and Sidious would certainly not have taught him any defenses. This is the one area where older eras have an advantage over the movies, save for the masters of the Sith, at any given time, in this case Sidious. Vader nor Dooku has any affinity nor knowledge of countering it. But we have no hard evidence of Nox's proficiency or knowledge in the area either. We know it does have battle uses(I can see Nox and The Wrath fighting much as Bane and Zannah did, with the Wrath essentially tanking trying his best not to be instantly slaughtered by Vader and Dooku[which is quite possible to happen] while Nox charges up some sort of sith spell). I feel like without more evidence for the heir of Kallig's level of knowledge in Sorcery I can't with a straight face use it as much of an edge. However, whatever it is, I think it would be enough to defeat Vader or Dooku alone simply through their complete lack of knowledge or defense against it. But both of them, even with the Wrath's help, would surely overpower them quickly enough that Nox would never have a chance to make much use of it. After all, both Vader and Dooku are excellent strategists, and they would very quickly realize that Nox's sorcery is the biggest threat, and would shift focus, much like how you would stop attacking the tank who poses little threat, and burst down the healer in a pvp battle. You could look at it in this way more, with dooku an assassin, and vader a juggernaut, dps spec. Let's say our wrath is a marauder, and Nox is a sorcerer, dps or heal spec. What will happen? Our more skilled team of Vader and Dooku either cc or just flat out ignore our Mara wrath while focus the squishier, but more dangerous sorcerer, quite quickly demolishing Nox through their melee damage.

 

8/10 Vader and Dooku own Wrath and Nox. The 2 times they don't, wrath get's lucky and manages a good hit on Dooku or Vader, or Nox manages to use some kind of sith sorcery to give them the edge they need to finish off Dooku and Vader through lightning and Saber skills.

I don't like it because of my distaste for the ultimate Mary Sue plot armor the movie era characters have, but if I'm being honest, old republic era characters simply don't compare.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Jedikillar

[ChazDoit]

8/10 Vader and Dooku own Wrath and Nox. The 2 times they don't, wrath get's lucky and manages a good hit on Dooku or Vader, or Nox manages to use some kind of sith sorcery to give them the edge they need to finish off Dooku and Vader through lightning and Saber skills.

I don't like it because of my distaste for the ultimate Mary Sue plot armor the movie era characters have, but if I'm being honest, old republic era characters simply don't compare.

 

This doesn't explain at all how Vader and Dooku deal with all the powers Wrath and Kallig's Heir (Nox) display in the game that we never see in the movies.

 

If what is suggested here is to nerf swtor characters to abide to movie standards (we take away all their force powers that are never shown in the movie) Then you could make the case that they can be defeated, and I guess it must have been said somewhere that the the movie characters are overall better duelists than Old Republic characters? because if that's the case I'd like to see a source for that.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to add, that the Old Republic era had the same lightsaber technology, the same 7 forms of combat and the human or alien bodies were just as strong and agile as the ones we see in the movies, so I don't understand why is there a movie bias that says characters from the movie era are far stronger, both them and swtor characters lived in times of war, in during the Old Republic era in particular there were thousands of Jedi and Sith running arund so Nox and Wrath had a lot of experience facing other force users.

Edited July 15, 2015 by ChazDoit

[Jedikillar]

The main reason the movie characters are better duelists is because of the thousands of years of experience the two order have. Rule of Two sith were almost always stronger than pre Ro2 sith because they were able to collect and pass on all the knowledge of the sith between two people at any given time, rather than needing to share and fight over it. The jedi also accrued more knowledge over time, though honestly it just is a "coincidence" that the greatest duelists and most skilled force users of the star wars universe appear during the movie eras.

 

The most obvious reason I can claim for them being stronger is that it's been outright stated by the Gods of the star wars universe that Sidious is essentially the embodiment of the darkside, the most powerful dark sider ever, while Anakin had the potential to be the most powerful dark or lightsider until he was chopped up. Since he was, Yoda then was the most powerful light side user until Luke, who some time after RotJ, was said to have become what Anakin could have been.

 

But the word of Lucas alone is not the only evidence, though it is perhaps the most solid. The feats of movie characters that are not shown in the movies(and those that are) are what really settle it. The Wrath and Nox could very well be just as powerful if not more so...but we simply don't have any evidence that supports it. We have hard evidence of how powerful Dooku's lightning and TK is. We have an idea of his level of tutamnis. We know Vader's skill with TK and other powers. We know both of their skills with a lightsaber.

 

We know nothing about the Wrath or Heir's skills in these areas. What have we seen? People say our characters are powerful. Big whoop. Wrath is pretty good for his time at force grip, though we really have not seen much in the way of TK. Using in game abilities, it's safe to say he knows how to throw his lightsaber, and has enough power to push through force users barriers with the force. With a lightsaber...well he's one of the best of his era. But not THE best. And even the best (Malgus, Satele, Revan, etc) fall short of the best of the movie era, of which both Vader and Tyranus are included and have each shown to be more than competent at facing the very best of the time, who have been noted to be the best of all time. We face the best of our time, but we need groups to do it.

 

The Heir is pretty good with lightning. How good? We don't know. Nox was able to survive a DC member's(perhaps one of the weaker DC members) lightning, who was throwing everything they had. But, as I mentioned, he was probably one of the weaker members of the council. Not to mention the inquisitor may or may not have needed the ghosts to survive it.

 

Dooku and Vader being able to face enemies such as they faced would be like our characters facing the aforementioned greats of our time alone. Imagine soloing False Emperor at level with average gear. You will lose. But Dooku and Vader can face foes who are even more powerful than Malgus and still come out on top.

[ChazDoit]

The main reason the movie characters are better duelists is because of the thousands of years of experience the two order have. Rule of Two sith were almost always stronger than pre Ro2 sith because they were able to collect and pass on all the knowledge of the sith between two people at any given time, rather than needing to share and fight over it. The jedi also accrued more knowledge over time, though honestly it just is a "coincidence" that the greatest duelists and most skilled force users of the star wars universe appear during the movie eras.

 

As I said before, the technology stays the same, and physically speaking, the people from both eras are just as able, both eras have all 7 lightsaber forms available, if you told me that Movie Era characters can stomp on the primitive jedi that only knew Form 1 I would believe you, but that is not the case here. And maybe Ro2 Siths were able to hoard more knowledge, but what about Siths like Malgus or the Wrath who had to get up, have breakfast and go to war against Jedi like every other day for their entire entire adult life?

 

The most obvious reason I can claim for them being stronger is that it's been outright stated by the Gods of the star wars universe that Sidious is essentially the embodiment of the darkside, the most powerful dark sider ever, while Anakin had the potential to be the most powerful dark or lightsider until he was chopped up. Since he was, Yoda then was the most powerful light side user until Luke, who some time after RotJ, was said to have become what Anakin could have been..

 

Sure, if GL says Luke and Sidious are the strongest then they are the strongest, but we were not talking about them, we're talking about Dooku (who got killed by Episode3-Anakin) and Episode4-Vader

 

Using in game abilities, it's safe to say he knows how to throw his lightsaber, and has enough power to push through force users barriers with the force. With a lightsaber...well he's one of the best of his era. But not THE best. And even the best (Malgus, Satele, Revan, etc) fall short of the best of the movie era,

 

Characters having to group up to defeat Malgus in False Emperor or Revan in The Foundry is more a consequence of this being an MMO and players having to group up to do content, have this been an sRPG players would have beaten them on their own, the same way Revan beat Malak in KOTOR, in fact, Bioware is going back and giving SOLO modes to the Flashpoints were you defeat Revan and Malgus, so players should be able to defeat them 1v1 now, weather the SOLO or GROUP version of these fights is the canon, I don't know.

 

Unlike Dooku and Vader, Wrath and Nox have not been killed yet, and they've defeated everything that's been put in front of them, it is hinted at the end of Shadow of Revan that if Nox and Marr were to team up, they could take on all the other Dark Council Members, this leads me to believe that Nox and Wrath are probably the most powerful Siths in the Empire at the moment, with that in consideration I think a fight between these characters and the movie characters would be much closer than a 8/10.

[Jedikillar]

Vader fought jedi all the time. He's been stated to take on multiple jedi battlemasters(9?) at a time and easily defeat them. Vader is generally speaking more powerful than episode 3 Anakin due to his experience, but also because of his suit. His suit was insulated against lightning(but he could not use the force to absorb it or use it himself, making him more vulnerable to it despite his suits resistance nonetheless), provided excellent armor, and increased his strength. He was even able to use ataru with it, showing that it was not a great hindrance on his agility or speed.

 

The issue we are having is not that I think Nox and Wrath are less powerful than Dooku or Vader, but that we have no way to know just how powerful they are. Dooku was able to stand up as a duelist to those I mentioned as being outright stated as the greatest duelists in star wars history, and had his fair share of battles with jedi, dark jedi, and non force users alike throughout the clone wars. Vader has all the experience of Anakin from the Clone Wars, combined with his experience and refined strategy and technique post Ep III. Experience wise, both movie characters and ours lived in times of war, and though the sith were not as numerous, I think it's very difficult to look at the many battles Vader and Dooku have and say they are less experienced fighting force users.

 

I mentioned earlier Vader defeating a large number of very respected jedi duelists all at once. He was also known to crush fighters with one hand, and of course is the progenitor of force choke and grip. Dooku was seen throwing around pillars that Yoda had to concentrate all his effort to redirect. Dooku defeated or stalemated every jedi he ever fought until the Chosen One, and by then he was already weary from fighting Anakin and Obi Wan together.

 

On the other hand, the wrath and Nox...they can throw crates in False Emperor. Wrath is hardly a chump at force choke, though we've hardly seen him use this much against force users. He can also force push force users and make adequate use of saber throw. We simply don't have any feats of his or Nox to show their telekinesis is anywhere near the level of Dooku or Vader. Wrath has defeated master duelists of his time, but rarely has he ever faced more than 1 at a time like Vader and Dooku both have, and the only real evidence we have of their strength has been...well the same issue that Jadus has. We're told they are powerful...but we have no background by which to judge how powerful they are against characters like Windu or Obi Wan, whom we do have evidence for.

 

I don't mean to imply Nox is a terrible duelist, but let's be real: We're comparing three of the greatest duelists of Star Wars history here. Nox simply isn't in that category as far as lightsaber skills go. That leaves The Heir's other powers, namely lightning and sorcery since we have no reason to believe Nox's tk is anything special(in fact, we have less evidence for Nox's skill in TK than the wrath's). So what do we have regarding Nox's lightning, specifically in comparison to Dooku's? We...don't. We mostly see Nox using it for intimidation or interrogation purposes as far as lore goes. We don't ever get to see Nox really killing anything with lightning.

 

Dooku on the other hand was able to, in 2v1 situations, incapacitate Anakin and Sora Bulq(A vaapad master who helped Windu create the form) with his lightning, before rather easily dispatching of their partners with his mastery of Makashi.

 

So...Dooku and Vader TK > Nox and Wrath.

Dooku lightning >= Nox

Dooku lightsaber >= Wrath > Nox

Vader lightsaber >Wrath > Nox

 

With the feats we have in game, there's simply not a single category I can conceive of Nox and Wrath being better in.

 

The one wildcard as I mentioned in my first post is sith sorcery. We have no idea what Nox can do(and potentially even the wrath. Bane was mostly a juggernaut of sorts, but he was quite proficient with lightning and had limited abilities in sorcery). Neither Vader nor Tyranus have any experience with it or with defending against it. The issue is, we haven't seen what Nox is capable of in this regard combat wise. Can Nox do something similar to Zannah's tendrils? Seems a bit out of Nox's range, but we simply don't know. Can Nox use Zannah's fear/insanity ability? Most likely, as evidenced by the sith assassin's use of it, but would it be effective against sith as powerful as Tyranus and Vader who aren't experienced with it? I don't know, and that's assuming that Nox actually can do it in the first place.

[PadsterPwns]

Vader fought jedi all the time. He's been stated to take on multiple jedi battlemasters(9?) at a time and easily defeat them. Vader is generally speaking more powerful than episode 3 Anakin due to his experience, but also because of his suit. His suit was insulated against lightning(but he could not use the force to absorb it or use it himself, making him more vulnerable to it despite his suits resistance nonetheless), provided excellent armor, and increased his strength. He was even able to use ataru with it, showing that it was not a great hindrance on his agility or speed.

 

The issue we are having is not that I think Nox and Wrath are less powerful than Dooku or Vader, but that we have no way to know just how powerful they are. Dooku was able to stand up as a duelist to those I mentioned as being outright stated as the greatest duelists in star wars history, and had his fair share of battles with jedi, dark jedi, and non force users alike throughout the clone wars. Vader has all the experience of Anakin from the Clone Wars, combined with his experience and refined strategy and technique post Ep III. Experience wise, both movie characters and ours lived in times of war, and though the sith were not as numerous, I think it's very difficult to look at the many battles Vader and Dooku have and say they are less experienced fighting force users.

 

I mentioned earlier Vader defeating a large number of very respected jedi duelists all at once. He was also known to crush fighters with one hand, and of course is the progenitor of force choke and grip. Dooku was seen throwing around pillars that Yoda had to concentrate all his effort to redirect. Dooku defeated or stalemated every jedi he ever fought until the Chosen One, and by then he was already weary from fighting Anakin and Obi Wan together.

 

On the other hand, the wrath and Nox...they can throw crates in False Emperor. Wrath is hardly a chump at force choke, though we've hardly seen him use this much against force users. He can also force push force users and make adequate use of saber throw. We simply don't have any feats of his or Nox to show their telekinesis is anywhere near the level of Dooku or Vader. Wrath has defeated master duelists of his time, but rarely has he ever faced more than 1 at a time like Vader and Dooku both have, and the only real evidence we have of their strength has been...well the same issue that Jadus has. We're told they are powerful...but we have no background by which to judge how powerful they are against characters like Windu or Obi Wan, whom we do have evidence for.

 

I don't mean to imply Nox is a terrible duelist, but let's be real: We're comparing three of the greatest duelists of Star Wars history here. Nox simply isn't in that category as far as lightsaber skills go. That leaves The Heir's other powers, namely lightning and sorcery since we have no reason to believe Nox's tk is anything special(in fact, we have less evidence for Nox's skill in TK than the wrath's). So what do we have regarding Nox's lightning, specifically in comparison to Dooku's? We...don't. We mostly see Nox using it for intimidation or interrogation purposes as far as lore goes. We don't ever get to see Nox really killing anything with lightning.

 

Dooku on the other hand was able to, in 2v1 situations, incapacitate Anakin and Sora Bulq(A vaapad master who helped Windu create the form) with his lightning, before rather easily dispatching of their partners with his mastery of Makashi.

 

So...Dooku and Vader TK > Nox and Wrath.

Dooku lightning >= Nox

Dooku lightsaber >= Wrath > Nox

Vader lightsaber >Wrath > Nox

 

With the feats we have in game, there's simply not a single category I can conceive of Nox and Wrath being better in.

 

The one wildcard as I mentioned in my first post is sith sorcery. We have no idea what Nox can do(and potentially even the wrath. Bane was mostly a juggernaut of sorts, but he was quite proficient with lightning and had limited abilities in sorcery). Neither Vader nor Tyranus have any experience with it or with defending against it. The issue is, we haven't seen what Nox is capable of in this regard combat wise. Can Nox do something similar to Zannah's tendrils? Seems a bit out of Nox's range, but we simply don't know. Can Nox use Zannah's fear/insanity ability? Most likely, as evidenced by the sith assassin's use of it, but would it be effective against sith as powerful as Tyranus and Vader who aren't experienced with it? I don't know, and that's assuming that Nox actually can do it in the first place.

 

I just wanted to ask, do we ever see Nox do any in battle sorcery? I haven't played the SI story line for a while but apart from the Thanaton duel I can't remember any other moments Nox has used it. Apart from that this is pretty much what I would agree on being the best answer, especially the Wrath and Nox's Jadus syndrome.

[PadsterPwns]

As I said before, the technology stays the same, and physically speaking, the people from both eras are just as able, both eras have all 7 lightsaber forms available, if you told me that Movie Era characters can stomp on the primitive jedi that only knew Form 1 I would believe you, but that is not the case here. And maybe Ro2 Siths were able to hoard more knowledge, but what about Siths like Malgus or the Wrath who had to get up, have breakfast and go to war against Jedi like every other day for their entire entire adult life?.

 

The reason why the PT produced the best was because of the gradual improvement over the years. While in a time of war the Jedi become more experienced, it also reduces the amount of Jedi (especially new ones) as while the few great masters may survive other Jedi who could have become great are killed. One of the best examples of the order producing great duelists is Yoda -> Dooku -> Qui-Gon -> Obi Wan -> Anakin because while none of them reached Yoda's level they all became legendary with Dooku being stated as the best Makashi user in history, Qui-Gon being supposedly on par with Mace Windu, Obi Wan being credited as the best Soresu user in history and Anakin (later Vader) being considered the best Djem-So user in history. Also while the forms may not have changed the knowledge and instruction of forms can as well as the instructors, basically meaning that if you have a great teacher, like a veteran of a war, who passes down their skills, other students will hone and perfect those skills and then they pass them down and so the cycle continues. In addition, wars can also push Jedi closer to the dark side and while this doesn't always have a large effect it is still believed by Yoda to cause problems for the order (e.g corrupting or altering other wise in balance Jedi reducing the amount of teachers to teach greater students).

 

Also the ROT produced great members as it meant that not as much backstabbing happened and that more and more knowledge is passed down the line. A perfect example of less backstabbing is Baras' ascension compared to Zannah, as while Baras simply got his two apprentices to kill Vengean, Zannah had to be more powerful than Bane to kill him, and so did her apprentice which again meant that the stronger Sith was in power with the culmination, Darth Sidious being evidence of this.

 

This is not to say that because they are from the PT order or ROT that they will stomp any other character outside their era, just that because of the passing down of skills and honing of such skills they are usually better in comparison. Also it is undeniable that there were a lot of talented individuals themselves at that time anyway, I mean look at the PT council, Kit Fisto, Plo Koon, Shaak Ti, Obi Wan not to mention Mace and Yoda.

 

Also it is difficult to compare player characters anyway because we have no solid canon to go on whereas Vader has around three decades of sources and Dooku has around a decade of sources as well.

Edited July 16, 2015 by PadsterPwns

[ChazDoit]

Vader fought jedi all the time.

 

So did Sith Lords such as Malgus and The Wrath and I think we agree that the Old Republic era had many more Jedi and Sith running around, finding them on the battlefield was so common for that era that in the game we find tons of nameless Jedi and Sith that we don't get to know as characters, but that doesn't mean they're not dangerous or that defeating them doesn't count.

 

Vader has all the experience of Anakin from the Clone Wars, combined with his experience and refined strategy and technique post Ep III. Experience wise, both movie characters and ours lived in times of war, and though the sith were not as numerous, I think it's very difficult to look at the many battles Vader and Dooku have and say they are less experienced fighting force users.

 

I think people are discounting things that the Characters can do ingame, if Vader gets credit for slaying nameless Jedi on the Jedi Temple on Episode 3, then when the Wrath has to wipe out a bunch of nameless Jedi on one of his missions it has to be acknowledged as well.

 

Also it is difficult to compare player characters anyway because we have no solid canon to go on whereas Vader has around three decades of sources and Dooku has around a decade of sources as well.

 

Yeah, I think what's going on here is that people go by the logic of "Everything you do ingame doesn't count, only what we see during cutscenes count"

 

I just wanted to ask, do we ever see Nox do any in battle sorcery? I haven't played the SI story line for a while but apart from the Thanaton duel I can't remember any other moments Nox has used it. Apart from that this is pretty much what I would agree on being the best answer, especially the Wrath and Nox's Jadus syndrome.

 

See? if we follow this logic, only killing Thanaton counts, the countless enemies that you have to kill to GET TO Thanaton don't count.

 

The way I look at it is that, everything you do in game counts, after all, these are video game characters, every mob you killed counts and every game ability you have counts and they should give us a good frame of reference on where this characters stand when it comes to how powerful they are and what are they capable of, by the time you finish Shadow of Revan, Wrath and Nox seem to be the strongest in the Sith Empire.

[PadsterPwns]

See? if we follow this logic, only killing Thanaton counts, the countless enemies that you have to kill to GET TO Thanaton don't count.

 

The way I look at it is that, everything you do in game counts, after all, these are video game characters, every mob you killed counts and every game ability you have counts and they should give us a good frame of reference on where this characters stand when it comes to how powerful they are and what are they capable of, by the time you finish Shadow of Revan, Wrath and Nox seem to be the strongest in the Sith Empire.

 

The thing is though it's hard to pick either basis because if we go by the "everything counts" route then we're faced with the question of how did it happen to which we have no answer. Also which AC are we using? If it's composite then we have even more variables. That's why really I'm sticking with "Cuts scenes are the most solid but we can see that by the bonus mission details they probably did kill 10+ enemies to get there". However that is still hard to judge because like before we have no idea how it was done, and although that doesn't mean we should discount it, it does mean we can scrutinize it. I do agree with your last statement, the Wrath and Nox are definitely two of the most powerful, but I don't know how far up because they suffer from Jadus syndrome (loads of hype with only some evidence). I'd say that the Wrath is probably on par with Darth Marr but Nox is hard to judge because while they did kill Thanaton it was clear he wasn't respected (although he was obviously somewhat powerful considering his position and with what Marr said being taken into account). All together I think Dooku and Vader take it just about every time as their feats and legendary status in the mythos simply dwarf that of Nox and the Wrath, especially considering how we're having to decide what even counts for them.

 

Also I think the main reason why only cut scenes are mostly accepted is because of what happened with Revan and the "heart of the force" quote and when fanboys started to put Revan on the same tier with Yoda, Sidious and GM Luke just because of game play, with some thinking he would stomp them. Both being laughable notions.

 

I just want to say I've liked discussing this with you, you argue well and without being a ****.

[ChazDoit]

I think only taking into account the cutscenes it's an unfair way to determine how powerful a character is, especially considering that all the great fighting scenes are mostly left out of the cutscenes on purpose because they are supposed to be represented through gameplay, if swtor were to be a movie, I guess we would see awesome choreographed fights, but it's not the case.

 

The other problem is that only considering the cutscenes completely removes the context, someone pointed out that the most TK we see from the Wrath is throw a crate at Malgus, but to even get to the throne room to Malgus you'd have to have killed a huge amount of his followers, Imperial Guard, Security Droids, Mandalorians and other Sith, including Darth Severin.

 

Something very important that we have to take into account is on what the creators of these characters were inspired, the developers have said several times pre-launch that the Warrior is supposed to represent the Darth Vader archetype (in fact, both characters end up as being chosen as enforcers for their respective Emperors because of how skilled they were) The Wrath powers were created to mirror those of Vader, that's the reason he uses mostly Force Choke but never Force Lightning, because Force Choke was one of Vader's trademark powers in the original Trilogy.

 

Nox is supposed to mirror Darth Sidious (that's why all his powers are mostly based around lightning) but not a Darth Sidious that is already the Emperor and at the height of his power, but more like a young Sidious with great potential on the force but still learning, they threw a bit of Darth Maul with the Assassin spec in there because they wanted to add a stealth class, but the concept and story arch for the character are supposed to be inspired by Sidious.

 

With all that into account, Nox and Wrath should be at the same power than Dooku and Vader I think. For all I know Vader vs Wrath should be a stalemate, since Wrath is supposed to be Vader's Mirror, the deciding factor is Nox vs Dooku, my money is on Nox because while Dooku is supposed to be a better duelist than him, Nox forcewalking ability should let him exert a huge amount of force power that he draws from all the ghosts he has bound.

[Jedikillar]

As far as cutscenes vs gameplay, that decision is indeed kind of tied back to the old kotor games, specifically where you end up fighting dozens of dark jedi and droids right after another before fighting the main sith enemies of the game. It's simply not realistic to believe that our characters were able to do that and still have the energy to defeat the main bad guy.

 

However, gameplay is not completely useless. We don't see Nox do any cutscene sorcery that would be applicable in a battle. That's the main reason I say we can't really say what Nox could do with it. However by looking at in game abilities(healing, crushing darkness, sacrifice, assassin stealth mez, etc) would suggest that Nox certainly can use sorcery in a battle scenario.

 

The problem with gameplay is...it's gameplay. We don't know just what happened. Did we kill all 200 of those mobs on the way to Malak or Malgus, or canonically was it less, or maybe more? How did we do it? Did Nox conjure up some sorcery that took out all of them without having to expend any real effort? Did the Wrath defeat all of them at once or one by one in lightsaber combat? Even in gameplay, we don't see the Wrath or Nox use any real telekinesis. They both have some sort of basic prowess in saber throws and force push/pull. On the other hand, we have solid documentation of the jedi Vader and Dooku have defeated, as well as their prowess.

Dooku and Vader are listed as the greatest of all time of their respective forms of lightsaber combat, and you can be sure they weren't limited to only those forms.

 

In fact, the greatest in star wars history of all the forms lived during the time of the movies due to this progression of skills that was mentioned earlier:

 

Form I: Kit Fisto

Form II: Dooku

Form III: Obi Wan

Form IV: Yoda

Form V: Anakin/Vader

Form VI: Perhaps the exception. It's difficult to say who the undisputed master is, though Exar Kun is probably the best choice, unless you wanted to say the Starkiller clone(TFU 2)

Form VII: Maul, Windu, Galen Marek, Sidious

All of the Above: Sidious, Sora Bulq(who was defeated in a 2v1 by Dooku...)

Vader was not a master of every form, but he incorporated aspects of almost all forms in his personal variant of form V, designed to take advantage of his suit.

[ReiKai]

Prequel era did not produce the best Jedi, nor had the strongest sith. The saying of it being the Jedi's "Golden Age" had nothing to do with their ability. It had to do with their prosperity. The idea that Jedi/Sith of this Era are more learned or skilled than their predecessors because they're in a further era of advancement is utterly absurd. For one, Star Wars hardly advances in anything, regardless of Era. And we have numerous instances of their tech being blasted back centuries, even millennia, because wars had utterly destroyed all advancements they had made, forcing them to dig up ships and even weapons centuries older just to re-learn everything from the ground up.

 

The same goes for Jedi and Sith foundations, both of whom had been reduced to a handful of figures in every era, and suffered an insurmountable loss of information, history, lore and knowledge of the Force. To say that PT Era had more advancement is an outright lie. The fact is they had very little in terms of Force knowledge and much of the histories on both sides were fragmented and with huge gaps in them. Vader, Dooku, Mace, Yoda, all of them could never conceivably know as much as those that came ages before them. Because all of that knowledge and lore was more available to those in previous generations as opposed to latter ones.

 

On note, lines like "best duelist of his generation" is said about a large number of figures in the lore. Making such wording utterly pointless. Revan was stated to the greatest of his entire era, and was undefeated in saber combat. Yet the majority of PT/OT fans hate Revan and claim him to be a poor to average duelist, despite being made out to be utterly unstoppable in the matter. So the idea of Vader/Dooku being superior to Wrath and Nox based in such statements is horribly off base.

 

Are Vader and Dooku superior duelists? Conceivably yes, because of the nature of the game limiting visual and quantifiable means of measuring their skills. However we know they've contended with a number of the most skilled and most powerful figures to appear in their era. Malgus was effectively Vader without the physical restrictions, and Malgus had great Force feats and dueling skills. Revan is still the #1 contender, with only Vitiate being actively far more powerful.

 

For abilities, as I said before, Nox and Wrath both have more varied Force abilities and I see no reason to restrict them to just Cut Scenes. It's the same as only using the Original Trilogy. To take from Drew Karpyshyn on why he didn't reiterate what happened in KotoR with the Revan novel, was because "that part of the story was already told". Despite the mechanics of the game, the abilities each learns and acquired would be part of their Story. However they go about appearing in the game is irrelevant next to them having the ability. Some of which are shown by other figures in SWTOR. Such as Darth Jadus displaying the Phase Walk when fighting the Imperial Agent. And Draahg trapping Darth Vowrawn in a Death Field.

 

Also, in the original trailer for the Inquisitor Class, they very clearly show such abilities as Stealth, lighytning storms, death field and such.

[Canareth]

As far as cutscenes vs gameplay, that decision is indeed kind of tied back to the old kotor games, specifically where you end up fighting dozens of dark jedi and droids right after another before fighting the main sith enemies of the game. It's simply not realistic to believe that our characters were able to do that and still have the energy to defeat the main bad guy.

 

However, gameplay is not completely useless. We don't see Nox do any cutscene sorcery that would be applicable in a battle. That's the main reason I say we can't really say what Nox could do with it. However by looking at in game abilities(healing, crushing darkness, sacrifice, assassin stealth mez, etc) would suggest that Nox certainly can use sorcery in a battle scenario.

 

The problem with gameplay is...it's gameplay. We don't know just what happened. Did we kill all 200 of those mobs on the way to Malak or Malgus, or canonically was it less, or maybe more? How did we do it? Did Nox conjure up some sorcery that took out all of them without having to expend any real effort? Did the Wrath defeat all of them at once or one by one in lightsaber combat? Even in gameplay, we don't see the Wrath or Nox use any real telekinesis. They both have some sort of basic prowess in saber throws and force push/pull. On the other hand, we have solid documentation of the jedi Vader and Dooku have defeated, as well as their prowess.

Dooku and Vader are listed as the greatest of all time of their respective forms of lightsaber combat, and you can be sure they weren't limited to only those forms.

 

In fact, the greatest in star wars history of all the forms lived during the time of the movies due to this progression of skills that was mentioned earlier:

 

Form I: Kit Fisto

Form II: Dooku

Form III: Obi Wan

Form IV: Yoda

Form V: Anakin/Vader

Form VI: Perhaps the exception. It's difficult to say who the undisputed master is, though Exar Kun is probably the best choice, unless you wanted to say the Starkiller clone(TFU 2)

Form VII: Maul, Windu, Galen Marek, Sidious

All of the Above: Sidious, Sora Bulq(who was defeated in a 2v1 by Dooku...)

Vader was not a master of every form, but he incorporated aspects of almost all forms in his personal variant of form V, designed to take advantage of his suit.

 

The problem with all the "greatest of all time" stuff is that records from the KOTOR period are going to be poor at best. And the Sith at least treat their ancient history beyond that as more myth than "we know this." They're actively doing research in the Valley of the Dark Lords in addition to all the Acolyte hazing. And we also have the Imperial Reclamation Service, the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge, etc.

 

They know that Tulak Hord was a bad news Dark Lord of the Sith, but they don't know how good he was or what he truly did.

 

There is no reason to believe that in the many thousand-years history of both orders (millions of person-years) that everyone who is the best at whatever is alive within the same century. A century that is generations removed from wholesale Force warfare for that matter. It's downright silly. The best fighters in anything are never the ones who are sparring/peacetime. They are the ones who have experience against serious opponents. The Jedi of the PT era have never fought real, trained, hostile lightsaber Sith at all, whereas that is an occupational hazard for Jedi in TOR.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Canareth

[Selenial]

Form VI: Perhaps the exception. It's difficult to say who the undisputed master is, though Exar Kun is probably the best choice, unless you wanted to say the Starkiller clone(TFU 2).

 

Personally I'd go with Darth Krayt.

 

Not that I want to get into this thread, the majority of the posts here are beyond laughable.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Selenial

[muchano]

Well since most people tend to forget, i'd like to remind you that Nox and Wrath blast through reinforced gate using Lightning / TK beeing just aprentice (Black Talon FP), while Anakin/Obi Wan need to cut through such gate using lightsabers.

About Nox sorcery/alchemy we can clearly see something what looks like force tendrils during opening cinematic of Makeb storyline (not sure it's this one or one of the next expansions), but we can presume she improved on those skills.

The case of Thanaton is that most people don't give him enough credit. I don't want to just copy/paste other ppl so just read this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=658950&page=14 especially post made by Leaveshill.

 

It's just my 5 cents on this topic

[ChazDoit]

There is no reason to believe that in the many thousand-years history of both orders (millions of person-years) that everyone who is the best at whatever is alive within the same century. A century that is generations removed from wholesale Force warfare for that matter. It's downright silly. The best fighters in anything are never the ones who are sparring/peacetime. They are the ones who have experience against serious opponents. The Jedi of the PT era have never fought real, trained, hostile lightsaber Sith at all, whereas that is an occupational hazard for Jedi in TOR.

 

Yes, in my opinion the notion that the "Movies/Clone Wars characters > Anyone else ever" is just a product of those characters being more popular and having more exposure since they appeared on feature films. I can live with Luke and Sidious being #1 because GL said so, but IMO everyone else is fair game.

 

The problem with gameplay is...it's gameplay. We don't know just what happened. Did we kill all 200 of those mobs on the way to Malak or Malgus, or canonically was it less, or maybe more?

 

It's not just the nameless sith or jedi that the characters kill on their way the big bosses (which in my opinion should be taken into account) There are also a bunch of characters that are not even considered. Let's talk about Nox* for a moment, people credit him with killing Thanaton but also kind of dismissing it saying Thanaton was weak, but it's not just that he killed Thanaton, Nox first attempted to kill him on his sanctuary on Dromund Kass, first killed his apprentice Rolan but the instability of the ghost he bound cause him to expell so much force energy that he sent Thanaton flying across the room and both fled the scene, then on Corellia, in order to get to Thanaton first he had to defeat Lord Skar then, Darth Kallous, who tried to attack Nox with Force Lightning and Nox made him fly across the room with Force Push, and then defeated him, right after that Thanaton sends his elite personal guard after Nox, two "powerful cyborgs" according to him, and Nox defeats them in a 2v1, when he beats them then he has his duel with Thanaton and beats him too, but the coward runs away to the Dark Council, also note that the last four enemies that he deafeats were one right after the other without rest, and without getting tired physically or depleting his force powers. Back on Korriban, Nox tries to enter the Dark Council room but is stopped by Darth Enraj and his two apprentices, who Nox kills in a 3v1, and after that he goes into the Dark Council meeting and kills Thanaton once and for all, and judging by the cutscene, it was a very one sided fight.

 

Also these were no weak enemies, anyone that is a Lord or a Darth at that point in time is a veteran of the Galactic War that surivived many battles, Thanaton himself was a seasoned veteran, he was a Sith Assassin in his younger days but then he decided to specialize more in Sorcery, when he was granted his place in the council he gained access to the Sphere of Ancient knowledge, he used those secrets to bolster his Sith Sorcery, so he was extremely powerful himself.

 

And we're only talking about what Nox did from lvl 47-50, which admitely is the climax of his story but there's much more than that, the list of victories under Nox belt is larger than this even if we pretend every nameless Jedi/Sith he killed never happened.

 

*I'd prefer to call him/her Kallig's Heir since Nox implies the character went darkside, but whatever

Edited July 17, 2015 by ChazDoit

[Jedikillar]

I also prefer Heir of Kallig because my sorc personally is Darth Occlus (man I worked hard farming BT to stay neutral for it too...)

 

But Nox is more likely canon and is a lot less of a mouthful.

 

The reason I say they are the greatest of all time is not solely because of in universe comments. It's because extra-canonical sources say so. IE, guidebooks, as well as the Overlords of the Canon. They made these comments with no regard for the feats or EU, but nonetheless, canonically speaking the masters of the movie eras were the greatest of all time at whatever they specialized in, Vader and Dooku among them. Vader and Dooku were also able to compete with the greatest in Star Wars Period in Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Anakin(Vader...) Obi Wan.

 

Sure, Nox fought a bunch of lords and darths. What exactly did they do? They were respected enough to be made lords or darths. Otherwise? Hardly another throwaway line of dialogue. Being a Darth does not immediately make one powerful. Revan was mentioned earlier. Take his handling of Darth Nyriss, a dark council member of her day. He obliterated her with hardly any effort.

 

We have no reason to assume that being from an older era gives them access to greater knowledge. Perhaps this was the case for the sith until Bane's Rule of Two, but the jedi, even with the periods of purges, maintained the vast majority of their knowledge. Much of the EU after the original trilogy revolves around Luke's rediscovering of the old Jedi's teachings, and he relearned and rebuilt the jedi order into greater than it was before. The same goes for Bane, he spent vast amounts of his wealth and influence on discovering old sith knowledge, and managed to discover the secret of essence transfer, a skill known likely only by the emperor during the swtor era. The Rule of Two facilitated the passing of sith knowledge and lore far greater than any earlier sith order, culminating in the most powerful sith of all time, Sidious. Sidious has feats rivaling that of sith using meditation spheres. Sidious is hands down the most powerful and knowledgeable sith in history, and the fact that any jedi of the era could even stalemate him is impressive. Sidious feared Vader, even after his suit. Dooku was trained by yoda, and as a sith had power enough to rival yoda, though it's fair to say yoda would have won their bout eventually.

[ChazDoit]

We have no reason to assume that being from an older era gives them access to greater knowledge. Perhaps this was the case for the sith until Bane's Rule of Two, but the jedi, even with the periods of purges, maintained the vast majority of their knowledge. Much of the EU after the original trilogy revolves around Luke's rediscovering of the old Jedi's teachings, and he relearned and rebuilt the jedi order into greater than it was before. The same goes for Bane, he spent vast amounts of his wealth and influence on discovering old sith knowledge, and managed to discover the secret of essence transfer, a skill known likely only by the emperor during the swtor era. The Rule of Two facilitated the passing of sith knowledge and lore far greater than any earlier sith order, culminating in the most powerful sith of all time, Sidious. Sidious has feats rivaling that of sith using meditation spheres. Sidious is hands down the most powerful and knowledgeable sith in history, and the fact that any jedi of the era could even stalemate him is impressive. Sidious feared Vader, even after his suit. Dooku was trained by yoda, and as a sith had power enough to rival yoda, though it's fair to say yoda would have won their bout eventually.

 

Hey if GL said Sidious is the most powerful sith, then that's pretty much it, but we're talking about his apprentices here, Vader and Dooku vs Nox and Wrath, now if we're going to underplay their achievements as merely "defeating a bunch of Darths" the same could be said for Vader and Dooku, defeating a bunch of Jedi, sure, those Jedi got screentime on theaters, so what? being popular doesn't mean you're more powerful, and people like George Lucas and movie buffs will always look down on Video Games as an inferior form of media, so of course we always see Video Game characters ranked several tiers below Movie characters, but aside from that bias there shouldn't be other reason for them being more powerful, the technology is the same, and lightsaber forms are the same, as far as I know Juyo from the Movie Era is not better than Juyo from the Old Republic era. Nox and Wrath have fought time and again during the Galactic War and so far are undefeated, yeah, not every enemy Nox defeated had a novel written about him (Thanaton actually was featured in comic books) that doesn't mean they're weaker.

[adormitul]

I also prefer Heir of Kallig because my sorc personally is Darth Occlus (man I worked hard farming BT to stay neutral for it too...)

 

But Nox is more likely canon and is a lot less of a mouthful.

 

The reason I say they are the greatest of all time is not solely because of in universe comments. It's because extra-canonical sources say so. IE, guidebooks, as well as the Overlords of the Canon. They made these comments with no regard for the feats or EU, but nonetheless, canonically speaking the masters of the movie eras were the greatest of all time at whatever they specialized in, Vader and Dooku among them. Vader and Dooku were also able to compete with the greatest in Star Wars Period in Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Anakin(Vader...) Obi Wan.

 

Sure, Nox fought a bunch of lords and darths. What exactly did they do? They were respected enough to be made lords or darths. Otherwise? Hardly another throwaway line of dialogue. Being a Darth does not immediately make one powerful. Revan was mentioned earlier. Take his handling of Darth Nyriss, a dark council member of her day. He obliterated her with hardly any effort.

 

We have no reason to assume that being from an older era gives them access to greater knowledge. Perhaps this was the case for the sith until Bane's Rule of Two, but the jedi, even with the periods of purges, maintained the vast majority of their knowledge. Much of the EU after the original trilogy revolves around Luke's rediscovering of the old Jedi's teachings, and he relearned and rebuilt the jedi order into greater than it was before. The same goes for Bane, he spent vast amounts of his wealth and influence on discovering old sith knowledge, and managed to discover the secret of essence transfer, a skill known likely only by the emperor during the swtor era. The Rule of Two facilitated the passing of sith knowledge and lore far greater than any earlier sith order, culminating in the most powerful sith of all time, Sidious. Sidious has feats rivaling that of sith using meditation spheres. Sidious is hands down the most powerful and knowledgeable sith in history, and the fact that any jedi of the era could even stalemate him is impressive. Sidious feared Vader, even after his suit. Dooku was trained by yoda, and as a sith had power enough to rival yoda, though it's fair to say yoda would have won their bout eventually.

Those lords and Darth got there by being recognised for their feats combat feats. Example the Wrath got the title of lords after he defeated a Jedi master and his apprentice one after another and lets not add how many other jedi masters he killed along the way. You do not get titles like that for no reason.

[PadsterPwns]

Yes, in my opinion the notion that the "Movies/Clone Wars characters > Anyone else ever" is just a product of those characters being more popular and having more exposure since they appeared on feature films. I can live with Luke and Sidious being #1 because GL said so, but IMO everyone else is fair game

 

The problem with that is that pretty much everyone on the council in the PT order has many accolades and impressive feats. For example, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar both have accolades of being some of the best swords masters in the ENTIRE star wars mythos and they have feats to support it. Fisto almost beat Grievous in a 1 vs 1 after going through his lair and killing his massive monster he keeps as a pet, then in Labyrinth of Evil he quickly disposes of two magnaguards whereas Obi Wan, in the same trilogy, was being hard pressed by three. Kolar has beat Quinlan Vos with ease, despite Vos being one of the best knights in the order and Kolar has also been shown to be skilled in unarmed combat as well. In addition to this Shaak Ti, an equally credited duelist, believes that (along with Saesee Tiin) Kolar and Fisto are among the most powerful and skilled of the council and Jedi order. Then look at the rest of the council and you have Jedi like Yoda, Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Obi Wan and Shaak Ti, with Yoda being the greatest Ataru practitioner, Kenobi being the greatest Soresu user, Windu having defeated Sidious in dueling and Fisto being noted as the best form 1 practitioner ever.

 

Then we see the Sith of the time: Sidious ,Vader, Dooku and Maul. Again all of them have been noted as some of the best swordsmen in galactic history and they all have feats to back them up. Sidious doesn't need explaining. Vader has been credited as the best Djem-so user and has feats that include stalemating ROTJ Luke and killing four out of eight jedi that ambushed him on Kessel. Dooku has been noted as the best Makashi user of all time and has beaten Obi Wan numerous times, held his own against Yoda for a brief period of time, stalemated or beaten Kenobi and Anakin in 2 vs 1's encounters many times and overcame almost all of Makashi's weaknesses. Maul has been outright stated to be one of the best Sith swordsmen of all time, with him mastering Juyo (meaning he must have mastered other forms), beating Qui Gon and TPM Obi Wan, stalemating TCW Obi Wan and lasting longer against Sidious (with Savage) then the trio Mace brought with him (as much as I hate that).

 

The thing is that in this argument people aren't just saying "Oh, they're from PT? They win", hard facts are being presented and while Nox and the Wrath are extremely powerful for their time (and probably in all eras), they are up against two legendary duelists and force users who have been in many battles against other powerhouses and have accolades and feats that support the very likely outcome of them winning. It's not going to be a stomp, but it won't be extremely hard either which is why I think Dooku and Vader take this 9-10/10. The only wildcard is Nox's sorcery but even then, as far as I can remember, we only see it used a couple of times and it seems to need a build up, though I could be wrong about that, meaning that while Nox is trying to do that the Wrath is going to have to tank both Vader and Dooku and that is almost never going to happen.

[adormitul]

Why did you made list of feats only for the movie characters and not the game characters?

First the Wrath defeated countless jedi and a few of them masters and many knights when he was just a average sith many times without a break.

In chapter 2 he defeated even more jedi and machines made with a incredible powerful and potent energy source and small armies led be renown generals of the Galactic war.

In chapter 3 he survived a bomb, he killed countless Sith some of them lords and darth rank, experience bounty hunters, the emperor and his own master in a year. He went from apprentice to wrath in a year.

Nox everything I said above besides killing the emperor and becoming wrath.

Read about Thanaton and his feats and read about the emperor and his feats and read about Baras and his feats t see what opponents Nox and Wrath had.

[ChazDoit]

The problem with that is that pretty much everyone on the council in the PT order has many accolades and impressive feats. For example, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar both have accolades of being some of the best swords masters in the ENTIRE star wars mythos and they have feats to support it. Fisto almost beat Grievous in a 1 vs 1 after going through his lair and killing his massive monster he keeps as a pet, then in Labyrinth of Evil he quickly disposes of two magnaguards whereas Obi Wan, in the same trilogy, was being hard pressed by three. Kolar has beat Quinlan Vos with ease, despite Vos being one of the best knights in the order and Kolar has also been shown to be skilled in unarmed combat as well. In addition to this Shaak Ti, an equally credited duelist, believes that (along with Saesee Tiin) Kolar and Fisto are among the most powerful and skilled of the council and Jedi order. Then look at the rest of the council and you have Jedi like Yoda, Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Obi Wan and Shaak Ti, with Yoda being the greatest Ataru practitioner, Kenobi being the greatest Soresu user, Windu having defeated Sidious in dueling and Fisto being noted as the best form 1 practitioner ever.

 

I understand that the characters from the movies have been fleshed out A LOT more, even minor characters that mostly stay in the background have major roles in Novelizations, and let's talk about these novels, Labyrinth of Evil came out only 1 year after KOTOR 2, do you think the author of that novel, James Luceno, even knew about the Jedi and Sith from the Civil War and the First Jedi Purge? When characters from the movie era say "so and so is the best, etc" do you think them or the people writing them even know about KOTOR or SWTOR? I don't think so, and I think the main reason you never see characters from the Video Games get a fair shake is because, well, they're character from Video Games, many people see Games as an inferior medium to movies at best and as kids toys at worst, Im pretty sure that the writers that fleshed out characters from the movies through novels, and series such as clone wars, never heard or of or played SWTOR, and considering Nox & Wrath were created in 2011, it makes sense they were never recognized as powerful duelists in the Mythos in all media that came out prior to that year, and with Disney moving the all games to LEGENDS canon, forget about any chance of them being mentioned in the future either.

 

But in any case, just because a character is more fleshed out, it doesn't mean they're more powerful, and while not as extensive, some of the biggest enemies defeated by Nox and Wrath were fleshed out in comic books too.

Edited July 17, 2015 by ChazDoit

[Canareth]

The problem with that is that pretty much everyone on the council in the PT order has many accolades and impressive feats. For example, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar both have accolades of being some of the best swords masters in the ENTIRE star wars mythos and they have feats to support it. Fisto almost beat Grievous in a 1 vs 1 after going through his lair and killing his massive monster he keeps as a pet, then in Labyrinth of Evil he quickly disposes of two magnaguards whereas Obi Wan, in the same trilogy, was being hard pressed by three. Kolar has beat Quinlan Vos with ease, despite Vos being one of the best knights in the order and Kolar has also been shown to be skilled in unarmed combat as well. In addition to this Shaak Ti, an equally credited duelist, believes that (along with Saesee Tiin) Kolar and Fisto are among the most powerful and skilled of the council and Jedi order. Then look at the rest of the council and you have Jedi like Yoda, Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Obi Wan and Shaak Ti, with Yoda being the greatest Ataru practitioner, Kenobi being the greatest Soresu user, Windu having defeated Sidious in dueling and Fisto being noted as the best form 1 practitioner ever.

 

Then we see the Sith of the time: Sidious ,Vader, Dooku and Maul. Again all of them have been noted as some of the best swordsmen in galactic history and they all have feats to back them up. Sidious doesn't need explaining. Vader has been credited as the best Djem-so user and has feats that include stalemating ROTJ Luke and killing four out of eight jedi that ambushed him on Kessel. Dooku has been noted as the best Makashi user of all time and has beaten Obi Wan numerous times, held his own against Yoda for a brief period of time, stalemated or beaten Kenobi and Anakin in 2 vs 1's encounters many times and overcame almost all of Makashi's weaknesses. Maul has been outright stated to be one of the best Sith swordsmen of all time, with him mastering Juyo (meaning he must have mastered other forms), beating Qui Gon and TPM Obi Wan, stalemating TCW Obi Wan and lasting longer against Sidious (with Savage) then the trio Mace brought with him (as much as I hate that).

 

The thing is that in this argument people aren't just saying "Oh, they're from PT? They win", hard facts are being presented and while Nox and the Wrath are extremely powerful for their time (and probably in all eras), they are up against two legendary duelists and force users who have been in many battles against other powerhouses and have accolades and feats that support the very likely outcome of them winning. It's not going to be a stomp, but it won't be extremely hard either which is why I think Dooku and Vader take this 9-10/10. The only wildcard is Nox's sorcery but even then, as far as I can remember, we only see it used a couple of times and it seems to need a build up, though I could be wrong about that, meaning that while Nox is trying to do that the Wrath is going to have to tank both Vader and Dooku and that is almost never going to happen.

 

Again, the PT Council is a peacetime circle-you know. None of those Jedi have ever fought a Sith, period. Let alone Sith who have lots of experience fighting Jedi (and each other) and/or using sorcery. Why would they possibly have better lightsaber skills than other Jedi Masters who had to be good at it because otherwise they would be dead? They can sit around and talk about how good they are but they don't even know what they're comparing themselves to. Sidious - who is legitimately in the tier of any of the Big Bad Sith - utterly smokes them, as does Vader.

 

In terms of the Rule of Two somehow providing more knowledge and instruction and experience than the Sith Empire...that's not how academic disciplines (or martial arts...) work. Two guys playing telephone - with varying levels of commitment to actually passing on everything - are not going to compare to the Sith Academy or the Spheres under the Dark Council. It is not possible to recreate thousands of years worth of study in a few decades. It's not even possible to read it.

 

Sidious being the most powerful ever is fair, he is clearly exceptional and was well-trained besides. Someone like Maul? Maul had very little real combat experience against Jedi (none if you go by the movies where the Jedi haven't heard of him at all) and wasn't very old when he "died" on Naboo.

 

Lucas waxed poetic a little too much over the Clone Wars/Galactic Empire era. Then again the Jedi way is as dysfunctional as it is because he had only a weeboo grasp of martial arts.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Canareth