Suggestion: Give Shields a non-zero "recently consumed" regeneration rate

[Nemarus]

Lasers, Shields, and Engines all have two different rates of regeneration: a normal regen rate, and a "recently consumed" regen rate. The latter is the rate used during the "regeneration delay", which is the period of time since the resource in question was last used (blaster fired, engine boost used, shields damaged).

 

For lasers, the normal regen rate is 10 / second, and the recently consumed regen rate is 4/s. The regeneration delay is 1.5 seconds.

 

For engines, the normal regen rate is 5 / second, and the recently consumed regen rate is 2.9/s. The regeneration delay is 3 seconds.

 

For shields, the normal regen rate is 5% (of base shields) / second, and the recently consumed regen rate is zero. The regeneration delay is 6 seconds.

 

For those that never realized it, that means that in most cases, your shields do not regenerate at all until 6 seconds have passed since you last took any damage. I believe this is true of both arcs, even if only one arc was damaged (anyone know for sure?). This holds true regardless of whether you put full power to shields or if you are using a Regeneration Reactor (because zero multiplied by anything is still zero).

 

There are a few specific components/upgrades that can change this:

 

Directional Shield's left T3 upgrade reduces the regeneration delay to 3 seconds.

 

Turbo Reactor reduces the regeneration delay to 2.4 seconds.

 

Directional Shields AND Turbo Reactor reduce the regeneration delay to 1.2 seconds.

 

Quick-charge Shield's left T3 upgrade changes the "recently consumed" regen rate to 3% (of base shields) / second.

 

My suggestion is this: Let's give all shields a non-zero "recently consumed" regeneration rate. Let's say 1% (of base shields) / second. And if you have Quick-charge Shield's left T3 upgrade, then your "recently consumed" regeneration rate would be 4% (of base shields).

 

Doing this would strengthen shields across the board and enable more strategic power management, which I think is a good thing. It would buff each ship type in proportion to each ship's base shield capacity. For those that don't know, base shield capacity is:

 

Strikes = 1800 (regen 90/s)

Gunships = 1700 (regen 85/s)

Bombers = 1500 (regen 75/s)

Scouts = 1300 (regen 65/s)

 

So Strikes, as a group, would get the biggest benefit from this.

 

It would also buff Regeneration Reactor (which currently is never used by experienced pilots).

 

The biggest risk of this change is that it would deliver a pretty considerable buff to the Tier 1 Scout's Shield-to-Engine Converter. Currently, that shield's active ability converts 10% base shields to 20 engine energy, and it is usable every 6 seconds. If you continually use it every 6 seconds, then your shields never recover energy, because of the 6 second regeneration delay.

 

However, with this change, you would actually recover 1% / second during those 6 seconds, for a total of 6% regained out of the 10% sacrificed to create engine power.

 

Thus with this change, a T1 Scout using S2E continually on cooldown would cumulatively lose 4% shield every 6 seconds, instead of 10%.

 

That's a hefty buff, but on a component that is largely ignored in favor of Distortion Field--and even when it is used, is really only used in TDM and not Domination.

 

I think this buff would make S2E considered more widely, even in Domination.

 

Or another option ... but a more complicated one ... is to make shield "recently consumed " rate and "regeneration delay" vary from class to class.

Perhaps Scouts should still have a zero "recently consumed" regeneration rate, whereas Strikes have a high "recently consumed" regeneration rate and/or a lower "regeneration delay".

 

Imagine something like this:

 

Scouts

Recently consumed regen rate = 0%/s

Regeneration delay = 6 seconds

 

Strikes

Recently consumed regen rate = 2% / s (or 5% with Quick-charge left T3)

Regeneration delay = 4 seconds

 

Gunships

Recently consumed regen rate = 1% / s

Regeneration delay = 5 seconds

 

Bomber

Recently consumed regen rate = 1% / s

Regeneratoin delay = 5 seconds

 

This would give a significant buff to Strikes (who are already the shield specialists), a mild buff to Bomber and Gunship shields, and no buff to Scout shields (which would avoid buffing S2E or Scout-DF).

 

And yes, with the above changes, a Strike using Directional Shield and Turbo Reactor would have a regeneration delay of 0.4 seconds, and a T3 Bomber with Directional Shield and Turbo Reactor would have a regeneration delay of 0.8 seconds. It's a bit extreme, but I don't think it would break anything.

 

I think either change (the global one or the class-specific one) would be good for the game.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Nemarus

[Verain]

That's a lot of text to buff your pet component.

 

I like the lack of shield regen after shields take damage. It's an important part of the resource management. I'd like it if the turbo reactor was a little stronger, and if the UI made clearer what was going on with shield regen.

 

Pretend that this change went in, with the added exception of shield to engine- that still shuts your regen down for six seconds. Still happy about the change?

 

Do you want shield to engine to be buffed? Just ask for that. I doubt anyone would be sad if shield to engine also allowed some small percent of regen (20% of base is that 1%) after using it.

[Nemarus]

That's a lot of text to buff your pet component.

 

I like the lack of shield regen after shields take damage. It's an important part of the resource management. I'd like it if the turbo reactor was a little stronger, and if the UI made clearer what was going on with shield regen.

 

Pretend that this change went in, with the added exception of shield to engine- that still shuts your regen down for six seconds. Still happy about the change?

 

Do you want shield to engine to be buffed? Just ask for that. I doubt anyone would be sad if shield to engine also allowed some small percent of regen (20% of base is that 1%) after using it.

 

So I'm guessing you didn't actually read my post, or notice that I highlighted the risk that this would overtune S2E, or that I provided a second suggestion option that didn't buff Scouts at all?

 

Yes, I'd still want this change, even if there was a hack to keep it from working on S2E.

 

I got halfway through writing this post before I even realized how hugely it would buff S2E. My original number was going to be 2% regen / second during "recently consumed", but then I realized the S2E would never, ever lose shields. So I switched it down to 1%, but even then, it's 4% loss / 6 seconds instead of 10%.

 

That's why I call it "the biggest risk to this change". That's why I called it out at all. If I was really trying to pull a fast one, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

Also there's that whole second half of my post where I exclude all Scouts from any shield buff, buff Strike shields considerably, and buff Gunship and Bomber shields moderately.

 

Why must you consistently accuse me of some agenda? And if I have one, what is it? I simultaneously proposed a global fix, then called out the one place where it is disproportionately beneficial, then proposed a fix that excluded Scouts completely.

 

Also keep in mind that there have been several times where people have said, "Put a Reactor on Tier 1 Scout" or "Put S2E on ship X with a Reactor" and I'm always the first (and usually the only) one to say, "No you can't do that, because S2E + Turbo would be broken."

 

In fact I believe you yourself expressed skepticism the first time I said that... yes, here it is:

 

In this thread, I said:

 

Quell/Pike - Shield to Engine Converter

A Shield to Engine Converter combined with a Turbo Reactor might be a bit too powerful. Apart from the Blackbolt/NovaDive, the Quell/Pike is the only other ship lacking a reactor.

 

and you replied:

 

Personally, I think Shield to engine should remain a 1-ship thing. Certainly there's no issue with turbo reactor, as the ability to jam the button for a minute straight is essentially the same thing as jamming it for the whole match anyway

 

So clearly you don't think there's any problem here. So why accuse me of some agenda? Clearly you think S2E shouldn't have any cumulative shield cost. I, on the other hand, have repeatedly said it should.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Nemarus

[ALaggyGrunt]

This suggestion would also mess with burn effects, mostly from clusters and pods.

[Nemarus]

This suggestion would also mess with burn effects, mostly from clusters and pods.

 

That's a good point. I hadn't considered it.

 

Though all burn effects tick faster than 4 seconds, right? So only Directional and/or Turbo would let you mess with them, which they might already do, if any burns tick slower than 1.2 seconds.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Nemarus

[Verain]

SThat's why I call it "the biggest risk to this change".

 

My point is, it isn't a risk at all. I don't see the change helping the game. I do think it would help S2E. I think asking for the buff to S2E is totally reasonable, and have said as much several times.

 

Why must you consistently accuse me of some agenda?

 

Maybe I have an agenda to accuse people of agendas. Metagendaccuser

 

I simultaneously proposed a global fix

 

I am not sold on the global change. I think it would make resource management less important and remove a lot of the uniqueness of quick charge. It would be a bit confusing and not change balance much, but it would make things a little more obscured.

 

The only thing it would matter for is shield to engine. That change is interesting. The global change is odd.

[Nemarus]

The only thing it would matter for is shield to engine. That change is interesting. The global change is odd.

 

Then just say that.

 

And as much as I love S2E, I don't want it to become a "hold down the button" ability. I'm surprised you're willing to entertain that notion. No ability should have its optimal time-to-use be "always". That involves no skill or thought.

 

If it can regain some or all of the shield it costs, then you literally would just tape the button down, because there'd be no consequence to keeping it on cooldown.

 

Whereas right now, it rewards knowledge of regeneration delay, and it forces you to make a choice: keep it on cooldown which causes your shields to degrade over time, or pace its use to preserve your shields but run out of engine sooner. That management offers a higher skill ceiling.

[Daedahl]

I'm slightly confused (not a new feeling). If the recently consumed regeneration rate is 0, what does the Shield Projector tip "Shield Power Recently Consumed Regeneration Rate +30%" do? Does Shield Projector actually regen shields (even when not activated) during the recently consumed period? If so, is it just so little that it doesn't help (and the -20% capacity per arc makes it a horrible choice anyway)? Never really thought about the recently consumed rate being 0 before (not that I have an issue with it, if they were constantly renewing it would be a bit harder to get through them).

[Armonddd]

That's a hefty buff, but on a component that is largely ignored in favor of Distortion Field--and even when it is used, is really only used in TDM and not Domination.

 

(And certain people have started flying that build regularly in Domination.)

 

But seriously, I think S2E could just be changed to drain 16% engine power instead of 10% and it would work out fine. 8% for 10 energy with a 3s cd. Or something like that.

 

I don't think adjusting recently consumed and regen delays for individual classes is necessary. I would have made some way for players to tweak it if I were designing the game from the ground up, but at this point, I think it's too complicated a thing for HeroEngine and the current dev team to handle. (I've toyed for a while with the idea of a component system that works like the Resident Evil inventory system -- your chassis has this much space and your components take up that much room, so make them all fit, and for each square you don't use you get a boost to engine efficiency because mass totally affects acceleration in space.)

 

...ahem. Yes, I suppose there was a topic.

 

Anyway, glancing over the pokes at recently consumed and regen delays:

 

Strikes

Recently consumed regen rate = 2% / s (or 5% with Quick-charge left T3)

Regeneration delay = 4 seconds

 

So, with directionals/turbo, I'd have something close to shield overcharge all the time.

 

Shield overcharge isn't great compared to the other powerups (except weapon overcharge, for certain ships that aren't too common in the meta), but it still has a big impact on how the match progresses. Strikes need buffs, but I'm not convinced this would move the game/metagame towards a better state. I'd have to see it.

 

Overall, I much prefer the first model; I feel like the second is an inelegant fix to a problem in the first (which is really ironic given my usual design mindset). I'll refer to the first model for the rest of this post.

 

That's a lot of text to buff your pet component.

 

Oh, hey, I didn't know you were getting into forums speedruns. Check out the reading% category for Dishonored (other games probably have a similar one), it's probably relevant.

 

This suggestion would also mess with burn effects, mostly from clusters and pods.

 

...Hmm. You could make dots shut down engine regen entirely, but that feels hacky (what's the in universe explanation for it, and why does the meta description sound like "we want to buff dots").

 

On the other hand, I feel like the real deal with dots is "this does x damage and disables full shield regen for y seconds". The latter half is still true; you don't get full regen until y seconds after the dot ends in either model. However, the x damage component is now wonk. A simpler fix would probably be to, again, increase dot damage across the board. But you have to be careful about it.

 

You list the current shield bulk and regen rates here:

Strikes = 1800 (regen 90/s)

Gunships = 1700 (regen 85/s)

Bombers = 1500 (regen 75/s)

Scouts = 1300 (regen 65/s)

 

And then I wrote a paragraph before realizing your proposal was 1% of base shield capacity, which covers my concerns with dfield, QCS, etc. So ok.

 

I would say just increase dot damage by 15 DPS and call it a day. Then look into practical application of RFLs to make sure you shouldn't be treating them as a dot in this case (you probably shouldn't, because they should be buffed in other ways, but it's worth checking).

 

I've been addressing how this change could be made (I should really start calling myself a developer instead of a designer). The bigger question is should this change be made. It would increase the tankiness of strikes, it would be a small buff to dots against scouts but a nerf against gunships and strikes, and it would necessitate a change to S2E. It would not address problems of strike mobility or burst capability, and it would not increase burst requirements to get a kill except in exceptional circumstances (funny how that works).

 

If the goal is to make strikes feel more tanky, this is a good change. But that runs somewhat counter to the stated goal of GSF being a fast-paced space shooter. Bombers do the same thing, but they're not an insignificant exception.

 

I'm slightly confused (not a new feeling). If the recently consumed regeneration rate is 0, what does the Shield Projector tip "Shield Power Recently Consumed Regeneration Rate +30%" do? Does Shield Projector actually regen shields (even when not activated) during the recently consumed period? If so, is it just so little that it doesn't help (and the -20% capacity per arc makes it a horrible choice anyway)? Never really thought about the recently consumed rate being 0 before (not that I have an issue with it, if they were constantly renewing it would be a bit harder to get through them).

 

Shield Projector does cause you to regenerate shields during the recently consumed period, yes. You will regenerate 30% of your base shield regeneration (the amount you'd have if you had no components, even stock ones) during this time. As Nem said above, bombers have a base of 75 regen/sec during full regen and 0/sec while recently consumed; the +30% would give you +22.5/sec to each, totaling 97.5/sec full and 22.5/sec recent. Your maximum shields would then be reduced by 300 (20% of your 1500 base), even if you had a large reactor or something pumping your shields above 1500.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Armonddd

[Altheran]

Shield Projector does cause you to regenerate shields during the recently consumed period, yes. You will regenerate 30% of your base shield regeneration (the amount you'd have if you had no components, even stock ones) during this time. As Nem said above, bombers have a base of 75 regen/sec during full regen and 0/sec while recently consumed; the +30% would give you +22.5/sec to each, totaling 97.5/sec full and 22.5/sec recent. Your maximum shields would then be reduced by 300 (20% of your 1500 base), even if you had a large reactor or something pumping your shields above 1500.

I doubt that.

 

In GSF, everything written in percents is a ratio of the stat it's born from. Here the stat is 0. Hence increasing of 30% of 0... So, 0.

 

Forceful change of values are written differently, without percentage. See Directionals' Turbo (-3), or in case of Shield regen, Quick-charge (+60).

To have 30% of normal regeneration rate under fire, it would likely have to be written +30.

 

And frankly, I haven't seen my shield regen after being hit ever on my Clarion/Imperius which both have Shield Projector

Edited June 6, 2015 by Altheran

[Armonddd]

I doubt that.

 

In GSF, everything written in percents is a ratio of the stat it's born from. Here the stat is 0. Hence increasing of 30% of 0... So, 0.

 

Nope. The stat it's born from is the base recharge rate. Base recently consumed rate is 0% of full. Now it's 30% of full.

[Verain]

I gave him crap for writing a bunch of text because the global effect would be minor (and I argue, bad), while the only interesting effect would be the S2E buff.

 

One thing that I see as core difference is- a lot of you guys seem to think that S2E, pressed more often, would be scarily broken or something.

 

It is true that Shield To Engine is very overbudget as a component. But it forces you into a playstyle, and actively trades away your defenses. Every other scout build can get something defensive out of pressing 2, but the shield to engine scout has that as part of a resource system that everyone else already has.

 

The build is ALREADY capable of:

1)- Essentially boosting forever.

2)- Outrunning everything else in the game*

3)- Shrugging off ion railgun.

 

 

This is why I don't feel that allowing a trivial amount of regen to occur is game breaking in any possible way. The move is already good at what it does, this wouldn't give it a grand new capability. If an enemy is running S2E, you are already having to scare him off or kill him while he has a mile of boost.

 

 

*technically, you can always put more towards speed or regen or booster recharge, and win a race. But if your S2E scout gets chased away by the enemy full boost scout, the odds are really not in favor of the S2E scout actually dying at the end of that encounter- he'll just get more boost and go do his thing some more. The ships that are capable of running around the map with this guy can't get a kill on him at the end of that.

 

 

This is also a big reason why S2E needs to not get handed around- if this was on, say, a bomber, that would be nuts. If a type 3 gunship could run S2E, it would probably be the generally best gunship. Etc. It's just not a balanced component- it's a tuned component for a certain scout that gives it certain capabilities that could be game breaking under some situations, but that scout can't be dropping mines or railgunning or burst laser cannoning on top of it all.

[Altheran]

Nope. The stat it's born from is the base recharge rate. Base recently consumed rate is 0% of full. Now it's 30% of full.

 

Look at Quick-charge and Recently consumed engine rate.

Does it increases the rate by 45% of full rate, or 45% of recently consumed rate ?

 

The answer : 45% of recently consumed. It goes from 2 to 2.9, not to 4.25.

Yet, recently consumed rate here is 40% of full. It could have been raised to 85% according to your theory. But it hasn't.

 

Also look at Regeneration Thrusters. +20% to both regeneration rates. It makes sense only if they are independent from each other, and both have to be multiplied by 1.2.

The same goes for regeneration Magazine.

 

All clues are here. Each stat is independent of each other, and all percentages are only applied to them. If you want to alter them at a different level, then it's by an other mean, which will be displayed differently.

 

 

If you still believe you can turn on regeneration under fire with Shield Projector, I invite you to equip your Clarion with Shield Projector and Regeneration Reactor. You'd have +50% of regeneration, and it should be sensibly similar to Quick-charge with its 60%.

I can assure you, it's nothing similar, you won't see your shield regen unless to activate the CD.

How do I know ? I tried. I wanted to believe the +60 was just a typo. It's not, it's a requirement.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Altheran

[Nemarus]

I gave him crap for writing a bunch of text because the global effect would be minor (and I argue, bad), while the only interesting effect would be the S2E buff.

 

One thing that I see as core difference is- a lot of you guys seem to think that S2E, pressed more often, would be scarily broken or something.

 

It is true that Shield To Engine is very overbudget as a component. But it forces you into a playstyle, and actively trades away your defenses. Every other scout build can get something defensive out of pressing 2, but the shield to engine scout has that as part of a resource system that everyone else already has.

 

The build is ALREADY capable of:

1)- Essentially boosting forever.

2)- Outrunning everything else in the game*

3)- Shrugging off ion railgun.

 

 

This is why I don't feel that allowing a trivial amount of regen to occur is game breaking in any possible way. The move is already good at what it does, this wouldn't give it a grand new capability. If an enemy is running S2E, you are already having to scare him off or kill him while he has a mile of boost.

 

 

*technically, you can always put more towards speed or regen or booster recharge, and win a race. But if your S2E scout gets chased away by the enemy full boost scout, the odds are really not in favor of the S2E scout actually dying at the end of that encounter- he'll just get more boost and go do his thing some more. The ships that are capable of running around the map with this guy can't get a kill on him at the end of that.

 

 

This is also a big reason why S2E needs to not get handed around- if this was on, say, a bomber, that would be nuts. If a type 3 gunship could run S2E, it would probably be the generally best gunship. Etc. It's just not a balanced component- it's a tuned component for a certain scout that gives it certain capabilities that could be game breaking under some situations, but that scout can't be dropping mines or railgunning or burst laser cannoning on top of it all.

 

"Useable more often" is not the same as "keep it on cool down or you are bad".

 

If S2E is combined with Turbo Reactor, the correct time to use it is always now. Same if recently consumed regen rate is 1.7% or greater.

 

At that point, you might as well remove the button and just make S2E provide a passive bonus that regenerates 3.4 engine energy per second.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Nemarus

[tunewalker]

To be truthful, the whole Shield to Engine providing such good engine power AND it still technically having stronger defense then Quick charge shield is why I am so adamant about getting QCS buffed. It basically does everything worse then Shield to engine, sure it increases shield regen but no one really cares all that much.

[Daedahl]

If you still believe you can turn on regeneration under fire with Shield Projector, I invite you to equip your Clarion with Shield Projector and Regeneration Reactor. You'd have +50% of regeneration, and it should be sensibly similar to Quick-charge with its 60%.

I can assure you, it's nothing similar, you won't see your shield regen unless to activate the CD.

How do I know ? I tried. I wanted to believe the +60 was just a typo. It's not, it's a requirement.

 

So basically that part of Shield projector means nothing. Seems like either they intended there to be a recently consumed shield rate that was not 0 or someone made a mistake on the tooltip. Is it possible it is giving a bump to recently consumed engine power instead (like quick charge shield)? Not sure how easy it would be to test that.

[Ardaneb]

"Useable more often" is not the same as "keep it on cool down or you are bad".

 

If S2E is combined with Turbo Reactor, the correct time to use it is always now. Same if recently consumed regen rate is 1.7% or greater.

 

At that point, you might as well remove the button and just make S2E provide a passive bonus that regenerates 3.4 engine energy per second.

 

The S2E only operates like this in between engagements. I agree with Verain that it already is pretty darn easy to operate in between engagements. It only becomes hard once you take a hit to your shields. A S2E build is hardly able to shrug off an ion rail hit like the booster system. As you know, after taking shield damage, the S2E pilot makes many choices of trying to engage versus attempting a shieldless escape. There are many more opportunities to engage more with less and less shields as a calculated risk. Many of the time windows are less than 6 seconds. The trickier parts of S2E utilization are only made a little easier by sticking it on a ship with a reactor. I guess there can be calculated risks getting to a flashing node or picking up a DO. Those calculations would go away, but not too much will change. People who repeated drain their shield without calculation: we can give them a little buff, they won't even notice.

 

I think S2E is pretty good as is on the type 1 scout. However, I also think if they were to add it to the type 3 scout, it would not be remotely overpowered. That ship would still be less powerful than the type 1 scout due to the secondary weapons, which are not suited for that flight style. However, there might be more opportunity to support teammates with tensor or combat command, which might just make it worth keeping type 3 scouts in a match for more than 1 second.

[ALaggyGrunt]

If the number is 1 or 2 ponts/second, we can calibrate shields off of that. This could also give regen reactor a serious reasoon for existing: with quick-charge, it would be able to regen-tank plasma rail burn.

 

Or maybe it actually is calibrated from the shields' normal regen rate?

Edited June 12, 2015 by ALaggyGrunt