Focus/Rage Single Target DPS?

[TeddyRoosevelt]

So, I've been away for awhile and last time I was here, Vigilance was the single target dps spec and Focus was the aoe spec.

 

Now, however, I'm seeing people talk of them more as Sustained vs Burst with a lot of people recommending other switch to focus. Has focus been buffed single target, or is it still primarily used for aoe? Haven't found a concrete answer in those threads yet.

[akisgood]

Its main strength is still AoE, although it got an ability called raging bust which is a single target smash and can be swapped with smash depending on the number of targets, allowing you to play it as a single target burst spec. Sustained damage is still significantly lower than venge for single targets.

[wadecounty]

Its main strength is still AoE, although it got an ability called raging bust which is a single target smash and can be swapped with smash depending on the number of targets, allowing you to play it as a single target burst spec. Sustained damage is still significantly lower than venge for single targets.

 

I wouldn't say its main strength is AOE at all anymore actually. In fact while leveling, Immortal is probably the best AOE spec now with Crushing Blow and its own buffed Smash. And at max level, Vengeance has clearly better AOE with Vengeful slam, dot spread and increased crit and damage on Sweeping Slash.

 

The main strength is single target burst, pure and simple. Which is nice in PvP, but doesn't matter a whole lot in PvE.

[akisgood]

I wouldn't say its main strength is AOE at all anymore actually. In fact while leveling, Immortal is probably the best AOE spec now with Crushing Blow and its own buffed Smash. And at max level, Vengeance has clearly better AOE with Vengeful slam, dot spread and increased crit and damage on Sweeping Slash.

 

The main strength is single target burst, pure and simple. Which is nice in PvP, but doesn't matter a whole lot in PvE.

 

Sorry pal, this thread is about rage, not a spec comparison. On a positive note though, I do agree that you probably wouldn't want to use it on many PvE fights. Other than possibly commanders if your healers were struggling with dtps in the burn, the main one that springs to mind would be hardmode revan, although I haven't used my jug on it yet so idk.

Edited May 13, 2015 by akisgood

[Luckygunslinger]

Sorry pal, this thread is about rage, not a spec comparison. On a positive note though, I do agree that you probably wouldn't want to use it on many PvE fights. Other than possibly commanders if your healers were struggling with dtps in the burn, the main one that springs to mind would be hardmode revan, although I haven't used my jug on it yet so idk.

 

Actually it's worse for Revanite Commanders and here's why:

 

 

• Takes more damage
  
• Harsher rotation management
  
• Single Target DPS is worse
  

 

Other than Shii-cho, Rage has no passive defensives Vs the good few that Vengeance gets, meaning it'll take more DTPS than Vengeance.

 

Secondly, the rotation/resource management in Vengeance is easier than Rage because you need to think ahead a good few GCD's in Rage and hope an ability doesn't fail. Vengeance has become easier with Resource Management since Shatter only has a final cost of 1 now.

 

Lastly, it has worse single target DPS and its AOE is consistently better but has worse potential. Vengeance is pretty much the go to for every fight. There is no reason/fight where Rage should be taken over Vengeance.

 

As for Revan, with how buggy Obliterate is in the Core burn, I'm unsure. Rage would theoretically be decent outside of the Aberration windows since you can set up burst but again, it's a case of can Burst between Aberrations beat Vengeance's somewhat decent burst (Back to Back Ravages + Vicious Throw + Scream + Impale w/ Set Bonus Vs Concentrated Slice w/ Set Bonus and Focused Burst.) and great sustained. Of course crits are debatable but Vengeance can rely more without crits for damage than Rage can. But again, DTPS is a factor in the earlier stages of the fight, at least the best CD of HM Revan works in favor of both DPS specs.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[akisgood]

That's a lot of words to essentially agree with what I was saying lol. When i said 'possibly revanite commanders' I was thinking about the 20 or so seconds at the beginning of the last phase... the main point in that fight where a group progressing on it might die.

 

When you did revan in vengeance, how much damage did you pull on the core? and was this pre or post nerf? I guess it would be nice if someone had tried rage and vengeance on it pre nerf since that's the only part of the fight that mattered pre 3.2, but sadly it's too late now, and I guess questions of spec viability will have to wait until there is some content to test it on lol.

Edited May 14, 2015 by akisgood

[Culhaven]

Sustained damage is still significantly lower than venge for single targets.

 

Sorry pal, this thread is about rage, not a spec comparison!

 

 

 

 

(lol, sorry I just had to throw that in there. I don't really care. Have fun.)

[akisgood]

Sorry pal, this thread is about rage, not a spec comparison!

 

 

 

 

(lol, sorry I just had to throw that in there. I don't really care. Have fun.)

lol ye you're right! What I should have said was 'sustained damage is lower than it would be if it was higher'. Happy now?

[Luckygunslinger]

That's a lot of words to essentially agree with what I was saying lol. When i said 'possibly revanite commanders' I was thinking about the 20 or so seconds at the beginning of the last phase... the main point in that fight where a group progressing on it might die.

 

When you did revan in vengeance, how much damage did you pull on the core? and was this pre or post nerf? I guess it would be nice if someone had tried rage and vengeance on it pre nerf since that's the only part of the fight that mattered pre 3.2, but sadly it's too late now, and I guess questions of spec viability will have to wait until there is some content to test it on lol.

 

Never made it to core, but keep in mind only one Veng Jugg killed Revan. Top players of their specs (Non-aim typically) barely met the checks pre-nerf and since Rage is about 300DPS behind Vengeance, if Vengeance barely scratches the check, it means there's no point in trying Rage, especially when it's bugged.

 

Secondly, I fail to understand how Rage > Vengeance for the first 20 secs of Soft Enrage.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[akisgood]

Never made it to core, but keep in mind only one Veng Jugg killed Revan. Top players of their specs (Non-aim typically) barely met the checks pre-nerf and since Rage is about 300DPS behind Vengeance, if Vengeance barely scratches the check, it means there's no point in trying Rage, especially when it's bugged.

 

Secondly, I fail to understand how Rage > Vengeance for the first 20 secs of Soft Enrage.

 

*Shrug* I did it on 3 classes pre nerf, and an additional two since and I'm not sure about 'barely met the checks', but the main thing to say about the core is that even after the nerf you spend a lot of time not doing very much as a non BH so I felt like it might be worth seeing if rage would fit nicely with a bit of burst in the limited uptime that you get. Post nerf and especially if anyone has a 204 MH, you could probably meet the check with 3 dps, provided your tanks are alive, so I wouldn't worry about experimentation

 

You're probably right about not using rage for commanders, I just thought it was worth considering. When my group was first doing it we had quite a few pull abilities one way or another so we tended to stack things up in the last phase, and a bit of up front damage might have been nice, but perhaps this is not a universal strategy.

 

I guess we should really be talking about monolith, since hm rav and tos kinda ended months ago. Rage certainly sux for that

Edited May 15, 2015 by akisgood

[Lamendra]

Vengeful Slam non crit hits almost as hard as a buffed smash from rage spec. It also has a quicker cooldown if I am not mistaken. Vengeful Slam is upfront damage and dot spread. Rip Smashmonkies.

[GrandLordMenace]

Vengeful Slam non crit hits almost as hard as a buffed smash from rage spec. It also has a quicker cooldown if I am not mistaken. Vengeful Slam is upfront damage and dot spread. Rip Smashmonkies.

 

This is why my AOE rotation begins with Master Strike instead of Overhead Slash so all 3 DoTs line up and can be DoTspread all at once easily. The AOE of Vigilance is NOT to be underestimated, and from a sustained point of view it eclipses Focus significantly.

[Luckygunslinger]

*Shrug* I did it on 3 classes pre nerf, and an additional two since and I'm not sure about 'barely met the checks', but the main thing to say about the core is that even after the nerf you spend a lot of time not doing very much as a non BH so I felt like it might be worth seeing if rage would fit nicely with a bit of burst in the limited uptime that you get. Post nerf and especially if anyone has a 204 MH, you could probably meet the check with 3 dps, provided your tanks are alive, so I wouldn't worry about experimentation

 

You're probably right about not using rage for commanders, I just thought it was worth considering. When my group was first doing it we had quite a few pull abilities one way or another so we tended to stack things up in the last phase, and a bit of up front damage might have been nice, but perhaps this is not a universal strategy.

 

I guess we should really be talking about monolith, since hm rav and tos kinda ended months ago. Rage certainly sux for that

 

 

I'm not trying to undermine your points and apologies if that sounds like the case. I guess I'm a bit over passionate with saying how Meh Rage is because of how much I love it. I honestly cannot think of a fight I'd bring it to because the strengths it had pre-3.0 they gave to Vengeance. :/

 

If they fixed Obliterate on Core and gave it more defensives, hell even a 5% base Endurance increase, something would be a start. But Rage is suffering bad and I plan to make an extensive post in 3.3's PTS build if there's no change. More so because like Madness, Rage is stuck in hell right now. I hold the top parse with mostly 192's, Ruusan and a Mono MH. In more Revanite I could push for a 4700 with good crits but comparatively I'd be breaking 5k in Vengeance and we come back to the question of why bother with Rage then.

 

Vengeful Slam non crit hits almost as hard as a buffed smash from rage spec. It also has a quicker cooldown if I am not mistaken. Vengeful Slam is upfront damage and dot spread. Rip Smashmonkies.

 

Vengeful Slam has higher potential, more frequency and above all others, buffs further AOE in the spec with Bloodbath + Path Carver.

 

Rage has Path Carver and that's it, at least Sweeping Slash in turn reduces CD's which is a welcomed change. How ever it lacks say... a crit chance increase but has a surge. I feel like they should do something with Sweeping Slash to make it amazing. Infiltration's AOE is insanely good because of Whirling Edge which is a Crit + Surge Buff. The thing with Rage is that Smash cannot be used on CD, buffs bottle neck timing, rotation priority can shift, hell you can burn yourself out if not careful, Vengeance? You can use your AOE liberally and literally never skip a rotation beat.

 

This is why my AOE rotation begins with Master Strike instead of Overhead Slash so all 3 DoTs line up and can be DoTspread all at once easily. The AOE of Vigilance is NOT to be underestimated, and from a sustained point of view it eclipses Focus significantly.

 

I don't think any good PVE'r underestimates Vengeance's AOE, if you see a Slam crit Vs. a Rage Smash Crit, you know the potential out weighs Rage. Rage has consistency, but in operations consistency sometimes doesn't cut it. Vengeance has a lot more to offer, in its down time; DoT's, Back to Back Ravages, Set Bonus etc. Rage's Rotation doesn't benefit from Downtime, it merely just hits a hard reset and you begin again, the burst isn't stackable, just... restable? If that makes sense? Since we lack offensive CD's, downtime doesn't particularly benefit us unlike say, Powertech or Shadow.

 

Rage is in a poor spot right now, I'd play it if I was confident in its current build but, I'm not.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[adproduction]

I wouldn't say its main strength is AOE at all anymore actually. In fact while leveling, Immortal is probably the best AOE spec now with Crushing Blow and its own buffed Smash. And at max level, Vengeance has clearly better AOE with Vengeful slam, dot spread and increased crit and damage on Sweeping Slash.

 

The main strength is single target burst, pure and simple. Which is nice in PvP, but doesn't matter a whole lot in PvE.

 

1) DOT is not an AOE attack, but a passive skill that adds to dps. You have to first apply the DOT attack first it can be spread.

 

2) Immortal/Defense has the best AOEs bar none. The Vengeance/Vigilance ground slam hit for 5.7k on my vigilance critical and Smash/Force sweep hit for 3k to 4k. My Defense/Immortal hits for 8k to 10k guardian slash/crushing blow and 5k Force Sweep/Smash. I would say both specs are even in Cyclone slash.

Edited May 15, 2015 by adproduction

[akisgood]

I'm not trying to undermine your points and apologies if that sounds like the case. I guess I'm a bit over passionate with saying how Meh Rage is because of how much I love it. I honestly cannot think of a fight I'd bring it to because the strengths it had pre-3.0 they gave to Vengeance. :/

 

If they fixed Obliterate on Core and gave it more defensives, hell even a 5% base Endurance increase, something would be a start. But Rage is suffering bad and I plan to make an extensive post in 3.3's PTS build if there's no change. More so because like Madness, Rage is stuck in hell right now. I hold the top parse with mostly 192's, Ruusan and a Mono MH. In more Revanite I could push for a 4700 with good crits but comparatively I'd be breaking 5k in Vengeance and we come back to the question of why bother with Rage then.

I hear ya mate, Bioware often makes me wonder when they tweak the classes. Madness, lethality, rage.. the list of specs that could do with some love goes on

 

Do they listen to forum suggestions?

[Lamendra]

1) DOT is not an AOE attack, but a passive skill that adds to dps. You have to first apply the DOT attack first it can be spread.

 

2) Immortal/Defense has the best AOEs bar none. The Vengeance/Vigilance ground slam hit for 5.7k on my vigilance critical and Smash/Force sweep hit for 3k to 4k. My Defense/Immortal hits for 8k to 10k guardian slash/crushing blow and 5k Force Sweep/Smash. I would say both specs are even in Cyclone slash.

 

So you play immortal with dps gear? just curious, because my vengeful slam is about 5-6k non crit. And a lovely 8-10k on a crit. While you are trying to sunder and assault for your rage starved immortal spec, i am going to be aoeing with 10k Crits, for free, while spreading dots and spamming my sweeping slash.

 

This is the only thing causing me to doubt the validity of your claim. That and the fact I can get 2 slams to your smash. A lot of factors in play here. Not to mention, spreading dots creats yet another 25% damage boost to sweeping slash to all affected targets. I think the choice is obvious for aoe from jugs these days.

 

I degress, the fact is rage is fun, but not the optimal choice for sustained single target damage, or aoe anymore.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Lamendra

[Luckygunslinger]

I hear ya mate, Bioware often makes me wonder when they tweak the classes. Madness, lethality, rage.. the list of specs that could do with some love goes on

 

Do they listen to forum suggestions?

 

Beats me. I've made extensive posts before on how Rage is performing and I'm unsure if it was heard. I hope the next PTS build will yield some good communication but I can't blame them for being resilient with the whole John fiasco.

 

1) DOT is not an AOE attack, but a passive skill that adds to dps. You have to first apply the DOT attack first it can be spread.

 

2) Immortal/Defense has the best AOEs bar none. The Vengeance/Vigilance ground slam hit for 5.7k on my vigilance critical and Smash/Force sweep hit for 3k to 4k. My Defense/Immortal hits for 8k to 10k guardian slash/crushing blow and 5k Force Sweep/Smash. I would say both specs are even in Cyclone slash.

 

1) Indeed that is true, but it increases AOE max potential. Even if DoT's must be ramped up via single target, the potential to have those DoT's burn 7 additional targets does warrant a sort of "After burn AOE" effect. DoT spread is a fallout of AOE after all.

 

2) This is true but pre 3.0, AOE Snap threat for Guardian wasn't fantastic, they've fixed a lot of threat issues but keep in mind outside of those abilities you listed, Guardian Tank DPS is meh at best. You need to spam Slash as a filler, Hilt Strike is on a 45 sec CD and the buff to Force Stasis isn't entirely fantastic. Though the lack of basic attack is nice. Cyclone Slash is used and can only be used recklessly in Tank. You won't get away with it too much in Vengeance or Rage.

 

I degress, the fact is rage is fun, but not the optimal choice for sustained single target damage, or aoe anymore.

 

Very fun, which is odd. A lot of poor performing specs are usually sucky to play, but Rage feels nice and flows perfectly and has a very simple dynamic rotation, much more than Concentration/Fury which is EZ mode in comparison. Unlike Rage, Fury can use Vicious Throw in the same blocks but never has to worry about a filler substitution or Rage generator to make the rotation Rage positive, and above that, the devs decreased costs of the spec even further and it deals more damage.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[adproduction]

So you play immortal with dps gear? just curious, because my vengeful slam is about 5-6k non crit. And a lovely 8-10k on a crit. While you are trying to sunder and assault for your rage starved immortal spec, i am going to be aoeing with 10k Crits, for free, while spreading dots and spamming my sweeping slash.

 

This is the only thing causing me to doubt the validity of your claim. That and the fact I can get 2 slams to your smash. A lot of factors in play here. Not to mention, spreading dots creats yet another 25% damage boost to sweeping slash to all affected targets. I think the choice is obvious for aoe from jugs these days.

 

I degress, the fact is rage is fun, but not the optimal choice for sustained single target damage, or aoe anymore.

 

I don't pick the cyclone slash feat for vigilance as I do with my dps tank. Non critical 3.2k and 5.7k critical for FS. 8.1k to 10.2k damage on critical GS. 1.7k to 2kish for CS. I have done ultra power/alacrity (with a critical of 23% and surge of 76%) and critical/surge. (29% critical and 79% surge) Critical/Surge won out over power/alacrity, though the opposite was true under vigilance. This was due to vigilance having auto criticals. Even without DOTs, Vigilance/Vengeance has pretty good dps. All of Defense/Immortals damage is physical in nature making critical hit and surge a huge must where as Vigilance/Vengeance has more room to power enhancement due to auto criticals.

 

Also my build isn't energy starved since most their move get reduce rage/focus on certain moves. He is just hampered by cooldowns as alacrity does not work well with this spec.

 

2) This is true but pre 3.0, AOE Snap threat for Guardian wasn't fantastic, they've fixed a lot of threat issues but keep in mind outside of those abilities you listed, Guardian Tank DPS is meh at best. You need to spam Slash as a filler, Hilt Strike is on a 45 sec CD and the buff to Force Stasis isn't entirely fantastic. Though the lack of basic attack is nice. Cyclone Slash is used and can only be used recklessly in Tank. You won't get away with it too much in Vengeance or Rage.

 

Single damage sucks, yes, and I never tried to pass it off as a single target dps. In terms of dueling, it is not the greatest, but with a good strategy and rotation, you can do a lot of damage. This dps is based on the number of people around you. It's strength is to use tanking taunts and challenging call with the utility while doing damage. My utility involves the challenging call, master strike immbolization, saber throw snare, the leap immunity, the cyclone slash, defense focus cooldowns reduction, and force freeze speed up. (I use two forces freezes to make sure to snare them and power my friend's up.)

Edited May 16, 2015 by adproduction

[GrandLordMenace]

So you play immortal with dps gear? just curious, because my vengeful slam is about 5-6k non crit. And a lovely 8-10k on a crit. While you are trying to sunder and assault for your rage starved immortal spec, i am going to be aoeing with 10k Crits, for free, while spreading dots and spamming my sweeping slash.

 

This is the only thing causing me to doubt the validity of your claim. That and the fact I can get 2 slams to your smash. A lot of factors in play here. Not to mention, spreading dots creats yet another 25% damage boost to sweeping slash to all affected targets. I think the choice is obvious for aoe from jugs these days.

 

I degress, the fact is rage is fun, but not the optimal choice for sustained single target damage, or aoe anymore.

 

Don't. DON'T touch that guy with a 20 foot pole, peering into his mind is like viewing the infinite void of destruction of intelligence.

[adproduction]

Don't. DON'T touch that guy with a 20 foot pole, peering into his mind is like viewing the infinite void of destruction of intelligence.

 

Translation: Love talking **** about a build haven't tried in a long time.

 

Says the guy who has played a tank since 2.9:D

[Luckygunslinger]

I don't pick the cyclone slash feat for vigilance as I do with my dps tank. Non critical 3.2k and 5.7k critical for FS. 8.1k to 10.2k damage on critical GS. 1.7k to 2kish for CS. I have done ultra power/alacrity (with a critical of 23% and surge of 76%) and critical/surge. (29% critical and 79% surge) Critical/Surge won out over power/alacrity, though the opposite was true under vigilance. This was due to vigilance having auto criticals. Even without DOTs, Vigilance/Vengeance has pretty good dps. All of Defense/Immortals damage is physical in nature making critical hit and surge a huge must where as Vigilance/Vengeance has more room to power enhancement due to auto criticals.

 

Also my build isn't energy starved since most their move get reduce rage/focus on certain moves. He is just hampered by cooldowns as alacrity does not work well with this spec.

 

 

 

Single damage sucks, yes, and I never tried to pass it off as a single target dps. In terms of dueling, it is not the greatest, but with a good strategy and rotation, you can do a lot of damage. This dps is based on the number of people around you. It's strength is to use tanking taunts and challenging call with the utility while doing damage. My utility involves the challenging call, master strike immbolization, saber throw snare, the leap immunity, the cyclone slash, defense focus cooldowns reduction, and force freeze speed up. (I use two forces freezes to make sure to snare them and power my friend's up.)

 

I assume you're talking about PVP because... yeah. If you're talking about PVE then your utilities are, no offence, terrible for bosses.

[adproduction]

I assume you're talking about PVP because... yeah. If you're talking about PVE then your utilities are, no offence, terrible for bosses.

 

For pvE, I used the anti-CC cooldown, Cyclone slash, the leap immunity, challenging call (for certain boss AOEs), focus defense cool-down or guardian leap (I rarely leap since I use to hold aggro good), and that saber reflect utility.

Edited May 16, 2015 by adproduction

[Luckygunslinger]

For pvE, I used the anti-CC cooldown, Cyclone slash, the leap immunity, challenging call (for certain boss AOEs), focus defense cool-down or guardian leap (I rarely leap since I use to hold aggro good), and that saber reflect utility.

 

CC Immunity is useless in PVE. Bar a small few bosses, knock backs and pulls aren't present.

Challenging Call is good

Focused Defense is good.

Guardian Leap utility is horrible. If it was a low level tier I'd probably take it but 30 secs off FD is much better than Guardian Leap.

Daunting/Intimidating Presence is next to mandatory so at least you're taking it.

[adproduction]

CC Immunity is useless in PVE. Bar a small few bosses, knock backs and pulls aren't present.

Challenging Call is good

Focused Defense is good.

Guardian Leap utility is horrible. If it was a low level tier I'd probably take it but 30 secs off FD is much better than Guardian Leap.

Daunting/Intimidating Presence is next to mandatory so at least you're taking it.

 

I forgot to add I use that utility that gives you Rage/focus when knocked out, but that is for questing. I rarely leap so I rarely use that utility. (Unless I know I am doing a hard mode utility where the mobs are spread out.) Most of the time I use the defense focus reduce cool down.

Edited May 16, 2015 by adproduction

[stephenalandavie]

Actually it's worse for Revanite Commanders and here's why:

 

 

• Takes more damage
  
• Harsher rotation management
  
• Single Target DPS is worse
  

 

Other than Shii-cho, Rage has no passive defensives Vs the good few that Vengeance gets, meaning it'll take more DTPS than Vengeance.

 

 

Edit : Just tested yea it is 1. must be something i am missing my tooltip says 5 focus is all.

Secondly, the rotation/resource management in Vengeance is easier than Rage because you need to think ahead a good few GCD's in Rage and hope an ability doesn't fail. Vengeance has become easier with Resource Management since Shatter only has a final cost of 1 now.

 

Lastly, it has worse single target DPS and its AOE is consistently better but has worse potential. Vengeance is pretty much the go to for every fight. There is no reason/fight where Rage should be taken over Vengeance.

 

As for Revan, with how buggy Obliterate is in the Core burn, I'm unsure. Rage would theoretically be decent outside of the Aberration windows since you can set up burst but again, it's a case of can Burst between Aberrations beat Vengeance's somewhat decent burst (Back to Back Ravages + Vicious Throw + Scream + Impale w/ Set Bonus Vs Concentrated Slice w/ Set Bonus and Focused Burst.) and great sustained. Of course crits are debatable but Vengeance can rely more without crits for damage than Rage can. But again, DTPS is a factor in the earlier stages of the fight, at least the best CD of HM Revan works in favor of both DPS specs.

 

Just a quick question on your comment, What gives Shatter the final cost of 1 now? That the refund of 3 focus??. Its 5 focus right?. I am new to guardian/jugg myself.

Edited May 16, 2015 by stephenalandavie