Is Madness significantly worse than Lightning pve/pvp

[howdor]

Also, what stats are you currently using?

I've done some testing recently, and best results provided build with 261 Critical/ 250 Surge/ 708 Alacrtity.

In 10 (i've picked up rotations without insane crits/double procs) rotations on 1 mil dummy, average result is 4865. with best 4982.

 

Cant speak for him, but of the top of my head ive got about 4.5% alacrity, 65% surge, and 0 crit. Mainly trying to min/max for madness at the 192 level. are those numbers of yours from a lightning parse or madness?

[Waferdanos]

Cant speak for him, but of the top of my head ive got about 4.5% alacrity, 65% surge, and 0 crit. Mainly trying to min/max for madness at the 192 level. are those numbers of yours from a lightning parse or madness?

Lightning.

 

In case of Madness, i'm getting something between 4.7-4.8. On a bright side of Madness (...yeah), it's numbers are much less RNG-dependant.

But a situation, when a burst-designed spec offers more sustained damage, than a sustained-designed spec is funny

[howdor]

Ah i recognize the name! Youre a couple spots ahead of me on the Leaderboards

[KeyboardNinja]

I was there as a sorc, if i recall correctly, about a 3-3.5 months ago. Back then, i've employed "heal yourself with a bubble" tactic. Our raid group is located behind bosses, near a gate, my position is on opposite side, out of range of healers. We've done this due to positioning problems. In matter of fact, even lightning sorc can be an absolutely self sustaining unit on this boss thanks to quite strict attacks timing. Thou, one do sacrifice some dps, while doing this.

Is it still a thing?

 

Not really. The damage on this fight has been nerfed down to laughable levels. I still use Unnatural Preservation, but not as aggressively as I did pre-nerf.

 

Incidentally, if you position on the entrance side and put your healers in the center (but offset from the pull-in location), you can actually set things up so that really no one other than the tanks has to move except on the pull-in (and then you just go back to your default positions).

 

Again, when compared to Madness, Lighning does not even punish mistakes in rotation. One can easy get away with quite a few. When Madness, if sorc lost his DoT effects uptime, literally fall apart.

 

Eh… The rumored "lack of punishment" in the Lightning rotation is radically overstated by nearly everyone. If your procs get out of sync, you lose Recklessness uptime, Polarity Shift value, relic value, mobility control and target swapping becomes an even more significant DPS loss. Target swapping, while certainly easier than with Madness, is far more involved and timing-sensitive than most people believe. Heck, I would actually argue that IO nearly has an easier time with target swapping, since outside of Mag Bolt, their target swapping basically boils down to "do the next thing". Due to the need to consider affliction auto-ticks while simultaneously avoiding delay on abilities, Lightning only has a few specific points where it can target swap without DPS loss (again, far fewer than is widely believed). And unlike literally every other spec in the game, pushback can actually break the rotation, whereas for most specs it's just an annoyance and a linear DPS loss.

 

Again, no argument that Madness is more punishing. Messing up your clip timing, using a proc at the wrong time, having to move at the wrong time, refreshing your DoTs early (perhaps due to a target swap), Death Fielding in slightly the wrong place, etc. All of these have effects which are as-or-more punishing than anything in the Lightning rotation. But saying that Lightning is a consequence-free spec is very much an overstatement.

 

Also, what stats are you currently using?

I've done some testing recently, and best results provided build with 261 Critical/ 250 Surge/ 708 Alacrtity.

In 10 (i've picked up rotations without insane crits/double procs) rotations on 1 mil dummy, average result is 4865. with best 4982.

 

High alacrity builds are always going to do the best on the dummy, but they're punished non-linearly on boss fights. I generally prefer to run just two alacrity pieces (so that the Lightning Flash proc is only barely shorter than the cooldown), then dump the rest in surge and accuracy. Full power + one accuracy augment. Willpower augments are going to yield better max parses, worse min parses, and an exactly equivalent average, so I decided to go for reliability. I've experimented with the 260 crit build, but I like ~100 crit better.

 

I generally ignore 1 mil dummy parse results, because they're so RNG-affected and very artificially inflated by the murderous burst in the Lightning opener. :-D I have a long essay on the Flashpoints forum explaining precisely why the 1 mil dummy is really really bad and it poisons the community's view of relative DPS balance, but that's an argument for another day. Something to think about on that topic is that the 1 mil dummy today takes almost exactly as long to kill as the 500k dummy did back when modifiers were first introduced. In any case…

 

I've gotten a 4.7k on the 1.5 mil dummy, which is higher than any other ranged burst spec on the 1.5 mil in equivalent gear (seems fair, given Lightning's survivability issues and rotation penalties). I've done exactly one 1 mil parse post-3.0 on my sorc, mostly for lulz, and I believe I got somewhere around 4780 with a lot of mistakes and very low crit. I'm relatively certain that, if I optimized timings (e.g. adrenal) more for the 1 mil, I would be floating in the mid 4.8s with god parses over 4.9. But again, 1 mil dummy… phleh. :-)

 

I find that the primary thing which influences my dummy DPS at this point is relic proc RNG. If I get relic procs close to (or on) the ICD, then every other Thundering Blast (and consequentially nearly every other Chain Lightning) is going to get buffed by both relics, which is a massive and insane boost and far outweighs even crit RNG. If you look on Parsely, my highest 1.5 mil parse is actually below my record (because I didn't save the log where I got the 4.7). What is hilarious though is to pull up the log and then look at the next two parses in that same log. Both of the subsequent parses had better double-tick RNG and better-or-equal crits, but neither of them had relic proc RNG that was anywhere close to the first parse, and so they're 150-200 DPS lower.

Edited June 5, 2015 by KeyboardNinja

[Waferdanos]

Eh… The rumored "lack of punishment" in the Lightning rotation is radically overstated by nearly everyone.

In my opinion, that's not a rumor, but a quite precise definition.

Again, it's just my opinion, as i do play both specs a lot. When compared to Madness, Lightning as easy as rotation can be.

 

I generally ignore 1 mil dummy parse results, because they're so RNG-affected and very artificially inflated by the murderous burst in the Lightning opener. :-D I have a long essay on the Flashpoints forum explaining precisely why the 1 mil dummy is really really bad and it poisons the community's view of relative DPS balance, but that's an argument for another day. Something to think about on that topic is that the 1 mil dummy today takes almost exactly as long to kill as the 500k dummy did back when modifiers were first introduced. In any case…

 

I've gotten a 4.7k on the 1.5 mil dummy, which is higher than any other ranged burst spec on the 1.5 mil in equivalent gear (seems fair, given Lightning's survivability issues and rotation penalties). I've done exactly one 1 mil parse post-3.0 on my sorc, mostly for lulz, and I believe I got somewhere around 4780 with a lot of mistakes and very low crit. I'm relatively certain that, if I optimized timings (e.g. adrenal) more for the 1 mil, I would be floating in the mid 4.8s with god parses over 4.9. But again, 1 mil dummy… phleh. :-)

Dummy parces just by it's nature are very artificial thing, no?

1.5 mil dummy certanly helps to somewhat smooth RNG factor, but it's not a defenitive amount.

Also, we do not have even 1 mil dummy parces uptime on bosses, not to mention 1.5 mil.

 

The way i see it, 1 mil parces it's just sort of social agreement. Otherwise, we'll have to make parces on every type of dummy all the time and compare and compete. Meh.

 

I find that the primary thing which influences my dummy DPS at this point is relic proc RNG. If I get relic procs close to (or on) the ICD, then every other Thundering Blast (and consequentially nearly every other Chain Lightning) is going to get buffed by both relics, which is a massive and insane boost and far outweighs even crit RNG. If you look on Parsely, my highest 1.5 mil parse is actually below my record (because I didn't save the log where I got the 4.7). What is hilarious though is to pull up the log and then look at the next two parses in that same log. Both of the subsequent parses had better double-tick RNG and better-or-equal crits, but neither of them had relic proc RNG that was anywhere close to the first parse, and so they're 150-200 DPS lower.

Chain Lightning procs can be quite easy moved withing your rotation to fit in at least one relic proq, even if your relics procs asynchronously.

[KeyboardNinja]

Dummy parces just by it's nature are very artificial thing, no?

1.5 mil dummy certanly helps to somewhat smooth RNG factor, but it's not a defenitive amount.

Also, we do not have even 1 mil dummy parces uptime on bosses, not to mention 1.5 mil.

 

It's not a question of damage, because if it were then we would all be using the 500k dummy (the only real damage checks in the game have us doing right around that amount; e.g. Revan Core phase). It's a question of time and the way in which that time interacts with cooldowns. Because we all have long cooldowns with different durations and timers, there is a lot of chaotic convergence that smooths out (due to averages) as the fight goes on. The opener is the only time that we all have every CD available simultaneously, and it's the only point at which every spec is on basically even footing. After that, averages rise and fall to different timing peaks depending on discipline, with lower peaks and higher valleys as the fight time increases.

 

Another way of looking at it is that we don't have any meaningful bosses which last only three minutes, and we never have.

 

The way i see it, 1 mil parces it's just sort of social agreement. Otherwise, we'll have to make parces on every type of dummy all the time and compare and compete. Meh.

 

It is a social agreement, and one that I'm trying very hard to change. :-) Competing with others of your same discipline on the 1 mil dummy isn't the worst thing in the world, though it is very RNG-sensitive. It's just when people start comparing numbers between disciplines on the 1 mil that things get really insane.

 

Chain Lightning procs can be quite easy moved withing your rotation to fit in at least one relic proq, even if your relics procs asynchronously.

 

You can't move Chain Lightning as easily if you don't know exactly where in your rotation it's going to proc, and once it becomes untethered to Thundering Blast and starts moving around the middle part of your rotation, you lose a lot of control over the variation due to random alacrity procs, Polarity Shift timing, Crushing Darkness drift, etc. Basically, Thundering Blast is the only point in your rotation where Chain Lightning can proc in a fixed fashion.

[Waferdanos]

It's not a question of damage, because if it were then we would all be using the 500k dummy (the only real damage checks in the game have us doing right around that amount; e.g. Revan Core phase). It's a question of time and the way in which that time interacts with cooldowns. Because we all have long cooldowns with different durations and timers, there is a lot of chaotic convergence that smooths out (due to averages) as the fight goes on. The opener is the only time that we all have every CD available simultaneously, and it's the only point at which every spec is on basically even footing. After that, averages rise and fall to different timing peaks depending on discipline, with lower peaks and higher valleys as the fight time increases.

Nothing to add here, agreed with every word.

Another way of looking at it is that we don't have any meaningful bosses which last only three minutes, and we never have.

That's exactly what i'm saying. Dummy by itself is just a tool to sharp your feel of rotation flowing.

It is a social agreement, and one that I'm trying very hard to change. :-) Competing with others of your same discipline on the 1 mil dummy isn't the worst thing in the world, though it is very RNG-sensitive. It's just when people start comparing numbers between disciplines on the 1 mil that things get really insane.

Generally, every discipline have a certain, discipline-specific set of criterias, by which their parces (and effectivenes of a player) should be analysed. For Lightning it's somewhat easer, since we dont have a resourse managment issues.

And to compare, say, Lightning and IO on whatever dummy parce is a strange thing indeed

You can't move Chain Lightning as easily if you don't know exactly where in your rotation it's going to proc, and once it becomes untethered to Thundering Blast and starts moving around the middle part of your rotation, you lose a lot of control over the variation due to random alacrity procs, Polarity Shift timing, Crushing Darkness drift, etc. Basically, Thundering Blast is the only point in your rotation where Chain Lightning can proc in a fixed fashion.

Yes, all of that do affect your Chain Lightning proc, but with some practice it's more than manageable. In my experince, random alacrity procs and Polarity shift are not much of a issue due to their effect on ICD of Chain Lightning as well. That's just my experience, i can be very wrong here.

Also, if you can stick your proc to TB (generally, you can and should), it'll become very easy to control. Utilising this approach, one can get CL immediately followed by TB+CL, all within relics proc.

That being said, RNJesus do have a major role here.

[KeyboardNinja]

Generally, every discipline have a certain, discipline-specific set of criterias, by which their parces (and effectivenes of a player) should be analysed. For Lightning it's somewhat easer, since we dont have a resourse managment issues.

And to compare, say, Lightning and IO on whatever dummy parce is a strange thing indeed

 

I think we're in agreement. :-)

 

Incidentally, it's worth noting that Lightning actually can have resource management issues if you get profoundly unlucky while parsing with optimal APM. I had a parse once where I was cruising along just fine until I happened to glance down at my force bar and noticed it was nearly empty! About 30 seconds later I had to simply stop the parse, since I didn't have enough force to activate my next ability. Looking at the log, all of my non-TB abilities were at sub-10% crit rate. It was insane. If I had achieved that much improbability in a positive direction rather than a negative, I would have done a 5.2k. :-D

 

Yes, all of that do affect your Chain Lightning proc, but with some practice it's more than manageable. In my experince, random alacrity procs and Polarity shift are not much of a issue due to their effect on ICD of Chain Lightning as well. That's just my experience, i can be very wrong here.

Also, if you can stick your proc to TB (generally, you can and should), it'll become very easy to control. Utilising this approach, one can get CL immediately followed by TB+CL, all within relics proc.

That being said, RNJesus do have a major role here.

 

It's manageable, it's just annoying and it does result in DPS loss. Keeping CL married to TB is definitely the way to go, and (absent pushback), the only reason you wouldn't have this is if you made a mistake.

 

Incidentally, the ICD problem is very similar to the issue that IO has with misplaced alacrity procs: the game engine rounds the effect of variable alacrity on buffs, which means that extremely timing-sensitive ICDs can drift out of sync with other things. It's not as tight as IO's ICD, but it's close (about 320 ms).

[Waferdanos]

Incidentally, it's worth noting that Lightning actually can have resource management issues if you get profoundly unlucky while parsing with optimal APM. I had a parse once where I was cruising along just fine until I happened to glance down at my force bar and noticed it was nearly empty! About 30 seconds later I had to simply stop the parse, since I didn't have enough force to activate my next ability.

I've had a situation like this once too, but it's an immence measure of bad luck. On an averege day, you'll not see anything like this.

The thing i would like to point out - you happened(!) to look at force bar, while other classes must pay attention all the time, and their rotations are pretty much defined by energy manangement.

Looking at the log, all of my non-TB abilities were at sub-10% crit rate. It was insane. If I had achieved that much improbability in a positive direction rather than a negative, I would have done a 5.2k. :-D

You know, there is a Nadina's logs at Swtor parcer (http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/19734/1), who somehow do exactly that. 42.17% overall crits, that's just insane, have never seen something like that in my overall experience as sorc.

Incidentally, the ICD problem is very similar to the issue that IO has with misplaced alacrity procs: the game engine rounds the effect of variable alacrity on buffs, which means that extremely timing-sensitive ICDs can drift out of sync with other things. It's not as tight as IO's ICD, but it's close (about 320 ms).

Hm. That do have something in common with Madness. Thing is, that random alacrity procs/Polarity shifts create a gap in timing by affecting Force Lightning 2 second cast time, effectively creating a situation, when you need to go for Demolish, it's still have about 0.3-0.4 cooldown time, and by activating Force Lightning again, you forced to delay Demolish for a second or so.

[howdor]

Hm. That do have something in common with Madness. Thing is, that random alacrity procs/Polarity shifts create a gap in timing by affecting Force Lightning 2 second cast time, effectively creating a situation, when you need to go for Demolish, it's still have about 0.3-0.4 cooldown time, and by activating Force Lightning again, you forced to delay Demolish for a second or so.

 

THIS. could that make a high alarcrity build a double edged sword?

[Waferdanos]

THIS. could that make a high alarcrity build a double edged sword?

 

Generaly speaking, every build is a double-edged sword.

Thing is, you'll encounter described problem even with no-alacity build, just with Polarity Shift and set bonus proc.

It's just a 2 second channel time for Force lightning that does not fit in a system with 1.5 GCD time. That being said, you definitely can work around this.

[howdor]

So the question is what is the sweet spot, if there even is one? Is there a recommended set build for cross spec use? Or essentially do you gear towards something, stick with it and hope for the best if you decide to switch?

[Waferdanos]

So the question is what is the sweet spot, if there even is one?

Is there a recommended set build for cross spec use? Or essentially do you gear towards something, stick with it and hope for the best if you decide to switch?

Ultimatly, i think, it comes to a personal prefernce. I'm doing ok with high alacrity builds, but always like to try something new.

In boss fights there are many factors to consider, other than just how stats are optimized.

[GrimWulf]

Anyone mind posting their Madness rotation or is Dulfy a good one to go by?

[myragoeshappy]

the one on dulfy isn't that bad, can maybe send my rotation tomorrow when i got a little more time

[howdor]

Anyone mind posting their Madness rotation or is Dulfy a good one to go by?

 

The dulfy guide is fine, however if you look on parsely alot of people have different rotations. its all comes down to if you want to follow a set rotation or a loose priority system. Vierge himself would be a good person to look at, as well as some of the others on here. Personally i use the dulfy opener, but follow my own set rotation afterwards, so its up to you how you want to set it up.

Below is my rotation:

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/30711/23

Edited June 8, 2015 by howdor

[myragoeshappy]

like i said yesterday, here my rotation:

 

Opener Rotation:

 

(precast) Demolish -> Polarity Shift + Creeping Terror -> Affliction + Adrenal + Recklessness -> Death Field -> Force Leech -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Force Lightning -> Froce Lightning (cancel the cast @ 1.5s) -> Demolish -> Death Field

 

 

My definition of Rotation is the Time between 2 Demolish (means 15s rotation). My highest priority is Demolish in combination with Death Field. So that means that is my "normal opener" for a new rotation. The problem is to have always your dots Creeping Terror and Affliction up on the Target. For that i need to use a delay from 3s (2 gcd) in each rotation on those dots

 

That means:

 

"Rotation #1"

Demolish -> Death Field -> Creeping Terror -> Afflitction -> Force Leech -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Force Lightning -> Force Lightning (cancel the cast @ 1.5s) -> Demolish -> ...

 

"Rotation #2"

Demolish -> Death Field -> Force Lightning (cancel the cast @ 1.5s) -> Force Leech -> Creeping Terror -> Affliction -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Force Lightning -> Force Lighting (cancel the cast @ 1.5s) -> Demolish -> ...

 

"Rotation #3"

Demolish -> Death Field -> Force Leech -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Creeping Terror -> Affliction -> Force Lightning -> Force Lightning (cancel the cast @ 1.5s) -> Demolish -> ...

 

"Rotation #4"

Demolish -> Death Field -> Force Leech -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Force Lightning -> Force Lightning -> Creeping Terror -> Affliction -> Demolish -> ...

 

"Rotation #5"

Demolish -> Death Field -> Force Leech -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Force Lightning -> Lightning Strike -> Force Lightning -> Force Lightning (cancel the cast @ 1.5s) -> Starts with Rotation #1

 

Like this i always got my dots nearly full time on the boss. Only between Rotation #5 and Rotation #1 you got a little downtime of 1.5s

 

Just to say, i'm using Force Leech always after Death Field bc you get 15 Force back when the target got some Death marks stacks.

 

For Reference

Edited June 8, 2015 by myragoeshappy

[Waferdanos]

like i said yesterday, here my rotation

Hi. Can you please share your stat distribution for Madness?

[myragoeshappy]

willpower: 4375

power: 1912

crit: 252

accu: 756

alac: 240

surge: 370

 

11 willpower augments and 3 accu augments

[howdor]

willpower: 4375

power: 1912

crit: 252

accu: 756

alac: 240

surge: 370

 

11 willpower augments and 3 accu augments

Do you use seperate gear/stats for lightning?

[myragoeshappy]

Do you use seperate gear/stats for lightning?

 

no i use the same gear for lightning