Ranged vs Melee score: 10 to 0

[invertioN]

@Methoxa - So you admit it's not doable as Marauders ?

And you don't consider this to be a problem ?

 

To the ones that say it's doable, I challenge you to try. Assuming everything else works perfectly, your basic chance of doing it is around 0. This will prove my point just as it did on other occasions.

 

He didn't say it's not doable, only that mara is bad', and why do you want to bring 35 maras to a raid ?

And to answer your question it's easily doable with just 2 merc healers doing the knockback while your 4 maras dps spirit. Anyone who gets nightmare should be out before the knockback, if his computer is slow that's his problem not bioware.

 

Also before you get there let me say in advance DF and DP NiM are doable with 4 melee too.

Edited May 8, 2015 by invertioN

[Overmind]

Yeap, DF NiM is doable. Ranged stays CiH and actually move only once and melee has to doge Teslas, run around after tent's not DPs to run away from spheres, etc,etc.

 

And yes, it's very easy doable with 8 BH. But that's not the point.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Overmind

[guardianzor]

Yeap, DF NiM is doable. Ranged stays CiH and actually move only once and melee has to doge Teslas, run around after tent's not DPs to run away from spheres, etc,etc.

 

And yes, it's very easy doable with 8 BH. But that's not the point.

 

have been reading all your answers.. and your thread for 30 mins now.. and all i can see is that you whine alooot =D

 

im playing mara as a main and have done that since 2.0 - i had no problems with either tfb / scum / df / dp nim.. i could hold my numbers up even if i were the only melee dps in that group.

 

in 3.0 im playing mara too - and im currently 9/10 in current tier of hm.

 

it sounds like you need l2p

[Overmind]

What you say is more guild-dependent than situation dependent.

Being a recently returning player, I did not finish all things at max yet because there's noone to do them with.

You can't pug-do DF/DP NiM or ToS HM. If you have a veteran guild where everyone is super-equipped of course it will seem easy for you. In such a scenario, you can concentrate a lot more on survival than on keeping up a DPs. I cannot do that at this point, since DPs is priority in order to actually be able to stop the enrages as a group. I do try to always use the DCDs in order to be able to DPs when I really would not suppose to as melee, but that only works as far as defense abilities are not on CD. After that, the choice is clear: die or not DPs. While that happens, ranged stay near the beers and enjoy the fights, since they rarely have to actually do anything else than press ~5 bar buttons.

I would like to see you play, though.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Overmind

[JouerTue]

DF nim with 3.0 raid gear, you don't have really to put out a huge effort to keep the dps up to clear levels...

[Xzelsius]

If you think that you can PUG-run every Operation in NiM and oneshot it you are a dreaming little child

It is possible to carry people but that requires a good team behind.

 

The reason why you struggle doing PUG NiMs or Ravagers/ToS HM ist not that you play melee or that melees are not viable.. its because most of the people don't know what they are doing but they think they know it

 

In a guild you mostly have a strict strat and everyone knows exactly what to do ... oneshotting NiM/new HM bosses requires training and experience... and 4 melees require other strats then 4 ranges and so on..

 

I recently semi-pugged Ravagers HM with a team mixed up by 4 different raid guilds with all different strats...we reached Coratanni with just one or two wipes at Master&Blaster... with 2 mDPS where one of them (Jugg) didn't knew the fight as a melee!

 

I accept that it will be nearly impossible to PUG with 4 melee DPS but in a guild or fixed raid team it is possible!

Edited May 8, 2015 by Xzelsius

[Torvai]

@Torvai - Wrong. You get TPed exactly when the ghost thing starts.

Nope. Styrak casts nightmare, one player gets ported there randomly. Then he does his tank swap mechanik and then he summons the spirit.

Seriously, this whole fight is completely scripted. Everything happens in set intervals.

Then this:

And to answer your question it's easily doable with just 2 merc healers doing the knockback while your 4 maras dps spirit. Anyone who gets nightmare should be out before the knockback, if his computer is slow that's his problem not bioware.

And this:

If you think that you can PUG-run every Operation in NiM and oneshot it you are a dreaming little child

It is possible to carry people but that requires a good team behind.

 

The reason why you struggle doing PUG NiMs or Ravagers/ToS HM ist not that you play melee or that melees are not viable.. its because most of the people don't know what they are doing but they think they know it

 

In a guild you mostly have a strict strat and everyone knows exactly what to do ... oneshotting NiM/new HM bosses requires training and experience... and 4 melees require other strats then 4 ranges and so on..

 

I recently semi-pugged Ravagers HM with a team mixed up by 4 different raid guilds with all different strats...we reached Coratanni with just one or two wipes at Master&Blaster... with 2 mDPS where one of them (Jugg) didn't knew the fight as a melee!

 

I accept that it will be nearly impossible to PUG with 4 melee DPS but in a guild or fixed raid team it is possible!

[Kufuffelupagus]

What you say is more guild-dependent than situation dependent. ... If you have a veteran guild where everyone is super-equipped of course it will seem easy for you. In such a scenario, you can concentrate a lot more on survival than on keeping up a DPs. I cannot do that at this point, since DPs is priority in order to actually be able to stop the enrages as a group.

 

All raids are dependant on the group being good. Yes I see you wrote "guild-dependent", well, it doesn't matter if it's a guild group if the guild's group sucks does it? The majority of the group has to be competent. If the group cannot do the content it doesn't matter if you're a marauder/ sentinel, or a RDPS, or a tank or a healer, you won't get through it. And the best DPSers can concentrate on DPS AND survival, FWIW.

 

Your complaint and the responses can be boiled down to "RDPS have it slightly easier than MDPS on some fights". Um, don't see any RDPS complaining about having to move into melee range to do their job in a raid (there's more than one ops boss with a reflective shield). When you make comments like "melee moves so much that it can't DPs even half the time" and "R can DPS at HK bomb phase, M can't." and "You get TPed exactly when the ghost thing start" among others, it makes me wonder why I'm even bothering to reply because you don't appear know much about successful DPS or how the fights work anyhow. You just wanna argue with everyone.

[StefanInter]

All raids are dependant on the group being good. Yes I see you wrote "guild-dependent", well, it doesn't matter if it's a guild group if the guild's group sucks does it? The majority of the group has to be competent. If the group cannot do the content it doesn't matter if you're a marauder/ sentinel, or a RDPS, or a tank or a healer, you won't get through it. And the best DPSers can concentrate on DPS AND survival, FWIW.

 

Your complaint and the responses can be boiled down to "RDPS have it slightly easier than MDPS on some fights". Um, don't see any RDPS complaining about having to move into melee range to do their job in a raid (there's more than one ops boss with a reflective shield). When you make comments like "melee moves so much that it can't DPs even half the time" and "R can DPS at HK bomb phase, M can't." and "You get TPed exactly when the ghost thing start" among others, it makes me wonder why I'm even bothering to reply because you don't appear know much about successful DPS or how the fights work anyhow. You just wanna argue with everyone.

 

If rdps has to move inside a circle he can continue to dps there is no range restriction on his attacks, being closer effects him 0%. If a sent has to move outside of 4 metres from the boss he has very few options with which to continue to dps.

 

Yes the current raids are doable by melee but it takes a lot more effort and precision from melee to get it right then it does for range. How is this fair?

 

The previous tiers were much better balanced.

Edited May 8, 2015 by StefanInter

[agnahim]

Again, as said, simply a pain in the a*s for everybody. But try getting hit by two mouse droids as a sage. You won't be complaining about it again as melee

 

 

right in the feels :s

 

Our main mara is like: "Wait what they do dmg? O.o"

 

--------------------------------------------

 

However I think (PT perspective) the whole content is not really that bad for mDPS.

In fact most of the fights do favor mDPS, so that they basically turn out as a dummy fight (thoughts of mDPS in our raidteam sent|mara, yeah we double mDPS the sh*t out of the game ^.^)

 

The problem here is that most people think that's easier with rDPS only, which it is not. There are LOTS of people who aren't really good enough to play with mDPS in these fights, even though these are the majority it doesn't mean it's impossible, cause they aren't top tier raider who actually CAN do this easily. Think of it, even after the latest nerfs there still are many 'casuals' trying their best, but without NiM it basically means that HM ist top tier and obviously it's not supposed to be cleared by everyone.

 

You can kill every boss with 4mDPS (Cora will eventually be pain the a*s) its just about the afford you put into learning to do this.

 

So please stop whinig and learn to mDPS ;P

 

 

And again greetings from our 2!! mDPS (3 for Lurker/Commander)

Edited May 8, 2015 by agnahim

[Torvai]

right in the feels :s

 

Our main mara is like: "What they do dmg? O.o"

Yeah, GBTF/UR and force camo ftw

Although we've found a way to direct after which player they go. So they most certainly go for our Mando heal every time;)

However I think (PT perspective) the whole content is not really that bad for MDPS.

That's what I was saying. Actual content is a bit harsher on melee than we were used to in the past, but it's not as bad as most people make it seem.

Sure it's bad for mdps if they have to move away from the boss for reasons. But that's the nature of it. If it weren't, they would be, well, ranges

Edited May 8, 2015 by Torvai

[Overmind]

DF was not a big problem compared to many others.

 

@agnahim I play 8 characters, 4 Force, 4 Tech, 5 Melee, 3 Ranged. Ranged are infinitely more easy on all ops.

As I said, in most situations you can just stay CIH as Ranged and pew-pew. If you have to actually move, you can continue DPS. As melee, its almost always more dodging than DPsing.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Overmind

[Xzelsius]

If you have to actually move, you can continue DPS. As melee, its almost always more dodging than DPsing.

 

like many said before then it is your fault.. you must do something wrong... our melees both say most of the fights are just easy and boring as hell..

 

Adjust your strat and you may feel the same! but dont say the ops are melee unfriendly... its all about to know how to play

[Overmind]

Yeap, something is wrong. I actually have to stay in 4m range to DPs while dodging all mechanics.

 

As i stated before, if you have something to show, show it with a video.

[Jojomagro]

Yeap, something is wrong. I actually have to stay in 4m range to DPs while dodging all mechanics.

 

As i stated before, if you have something to show, show it with a video.

 

That is not how burden of proof works friend. You are making a claim that apparently not a alot of people agree with, so you need good evidence to support your claim. All I see is anecdotal evidence. Evidence that is countered by many other melee players and my own personal anecdote.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Jojomagro

[Joran-Koon]

If melee put out amazing amounts of dps compared to ranged classes, I could see reworking an entire boss strat to accommodate for said melee. But they don't. They do comparable if not less than ranged. So why would anyone who is actively pursuing "hardcore" progression bring a class that they have to move 7 other people around to account for one dummy parse hero. Especially when the ranged classes do more damage and don't have to make everyone's day worse by just being there.

 

I played a jugg for DF and DP progression and was one of three to get deposer as a jugg dps, so I understand the melee plight. I wish there was a reason that raid teams would bring me in (other than my saber reflect cheese) but there isn't. And we can't get a buff cause PvP stars will riot. Is this tier doable as a PURE melee? Yes, as it's been done. But by coming on a sub-par class, you hinder your teammates and make their progression that much harder. If you have 10/10 on farm and your team is geared BiS and you bring your crappy melee for a night then whatever, but progressing in that state is unfair to the team. So you either choose to be unfair to 7 people or unfair to 1 (yourself) and re-roll.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Joran-Koon

[Overmind]

Game mechanics are practical facts, not anecdotes.

 

And how comes every time I challenge someone to something they run like chicken ?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Overmind

[xXxArrakisxXx]

Yeap, something is wrong. I actually have to stay in 4m range to DPs while dodging all mechanics.

 

As i stated before, if you have something to show, show it with a video.

 

You want a proof? Well here is your Cora HM firstkill!

 

Tanks: Jugg/Sin, Heals: Merc/Sorc, DPS: Sniper/Sorc/PT/Mara

Black Bantha Cora HM

 

And like Xzelsius and Agnahim said most fights are really boring. You can trust me, i'm a Mara

[Methoxa]

@Methoxa - So you admit it's not doable as Marauders ?

And you don't consider this to be a problem ?

 

It is definately doable with 1 or 2 marauders, but not with 4 marauders. I dont consider this a problem because a raid should consist of several classes. Every bossfight has a favourite class and a least favorable class. This doesnt mean the least favourable class shouldn't be brought but you shouldnt class stack that class for this particular bossfight.

[Overmind]

You want a proof? Well here is your Cora HM firstkill!

 

Tanks: Jugg/Sin, Heals: Merc/Sorc, DPS: Sniper/Sorc/PT/Mara

Black Bantha Cora HM

 

And like Xzelsius and Agnahim said most fights are really boring. You can trust me, i'm a Mara

Whats HM Cora got to do with anything ?

 

It is definately doable with 1 or 2 marauders, but not with 4 marauders. I dont consider this a problem because a raid should consist of several classes. Every bossfight has a favourite class and a least favorable class. This doesnt mean the least favourable class shouldn't be brought but you shouldnt class stack that class for this particular bossfight.

Points to be made: -

- it's doable with 4 ranged and not 4M so this is unbalance.

- as stated before melee are hated in general fleet chat and every almost group exclusively prefers range.

 

I just watched DP NiM last boss being done with 2 melee in the group and there are several things not ok: 1 - camera is zoomed above max allowed limit (which I consider cheating). 2 - some of the interrupts used there on death ray ghosts no longer work. 3 - ghosts are further and walk slower then they do now.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Overmind

[xXxArrakisxXx]

Whats HM Cora got to do with anything ?

 

You want a proof, here it is! L2P as a melee und adjust your tactic.....

 

Points to be made: -

- it's doable with 4 ranged and not 4M so this is unbalance.

- as stated before melee are hated in general fleet chat and every almost group exclusively prefers range.

 

And why do the fleet "hates" melees? Cause of ppl like you who doesn't have any idea about playing a melee correct. Learn your melee and stop whinig about how difficult it is.

 

I just watched DP NiM last boss being done with 2 melee in the group and there are several things not ok: 1 - camera is zoomed above max allowed limit (which I consider cheating). 2 - some of the interrupts used there on death ray ghosts no longer work. 3 - ghosts are further and walk slower then they do now.

Ahh, i see..... You have also no idea about the old operations... why shouldn't the interrupts no longer work? And btw.... you can config the camera zoom in your settings file.... pls inform yourself before think bout cheating...!

[Overmind]

I know it can be changed from a setting file but that's not OK as long as it exceeds the menu possibilities. Yes, you can play it Diablo2 mode, but as I said, is not exactly fair.

 

Ask the game devs, not me why some interrupts and even grenades no longer work on ghosts. i'm just reporting what I'm testing.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Overmind

[Methoxa]

- it's doable with 4 ranged and not 4M so this is unbalance.

 

It is doable with 4 Juggernauts, its possible with 4 Sins it might be even doable with 4 pt's, but its not possible with 4 marauders. Marauder is not the only melee class.

 

DP NM Ghost phase isn't really a problem, you dont even have to kick or slow or stun the ghosts. NM Styrak is far easier now with overgear just learn to properly adjust the stunsetup. You got 8 players and 4 Ghosts. Maro should be able to slow and force choke his assigned ghost, if he is out of stun the second player will use his. The stun duration of 2 Marauders should be enough for one ghost not to reach Styrak. If it doesnt you do not only lack stuns and proper tactics but also dps.

 

Styrak NM is not the only fight which favours certain setups. Brontes NM you dont want to bring 2 pt tanks. Tyrans NM you dont want to bring too many melees. Council NM you want to bring a sin tank. This is what NM is about. Bringing an optimal setup and optimal skill usage by every player. Even though its outdated content you still have to play at a certain skill level. Blaming BW for bad melees? If you think so then reroll or train your skill and experience the positive aspects of a melee.

 

I know it can be changed from a setting file but that's not OK as long as it exceeds the menu possibilities. Yes, you can play it Diablo2 mode, but as I said, is not exactly fair.

 

Has been debated a long time ago. It is not considered cheating by BW/EA because you adjust the config file but you do not replace a file or do not manipulate a file. Furthermore its perfectly doable without the camera adjustment.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Methoxa

[JouerTue]

i doubt hm progression and fleet chat hate, belong to the same discussion...

personally i rerolled assault specialist from my sentinel, i was great at it, not dying on mechanics and having nice uptime in most fights, but now, after a couple of weeks of dummy practice and some pug in sm, i do a lot more damage(+500 dps av.), have even better dtps and all with a lot less frustrations and effort.

 

those calling themselves progression raiders should not be too much concerned by these things..we all want the fastest and less painful experience as possible, and considering the effort of practice and re-gearing another toon it's often the best option to reroll than lay in stalemate or with the impression you wasting others' time.

 

in general it's an imbalance that at this level is not healthy for such old game.

Edited May 14, 2015 by JouerTue

[Methoxa]

If your assault spec merc can do more dps than a sent you were doing something seriously wrong as a sent.

 

Melees have to be more aware about the bossmechanics that is true, but it doesnt mean that melees are harder to play because ranges also have to learn mechanics that melees don't have to learn.

 

Mostly ppl chose ranges because most content is easy for them and bad ranges survive longer than bad melees. But when it comes to the new HM content even bad ranges don't survive.

 

I mean the very person here defending the theory that melees are harder to play is a person that does old NM in overrgear and still fails. How many of his arguments are already nullified by the fact that his skill is not enough to beat Scum and villany NM? I bet he will fail miserably at DP NM even with a full ranged setup. You know why? Because playerskill > Equip >class.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Methoxa