Which ship to choose ?

[Ligurio]

Hello.

 

That might look like a silly question but I actually find myself unable to choose which ship I'll unlock.

I already own a Sting (nearly mastered), a Legion and a Mangler (can't wait to play that one, I have fond memories of my time with a Mailoc on another character).

So... of course there is the Razorwire but there are already several other people in my guild interesting in that bomber so I thought I could maybe take something else.

 

So what is the community advice ?

 

P.S. : keen in mind I'm playing on Battle Meditation. Nice community but you'll see rain on Tatooine before you see a premade in gsf (but we're working on that.. ot at least trying).

[nyghtrunner]

The Razorwire is a great ship, and is always a good one to have on your bar, so I would look into getting that one regardless of whether or not guildies are looking at getting one. It's relatively cheap by ship standards as well, and is actually not useless right out of the box.

 

If you're looking more for utility for the times you fly with your guild or don't need to dominate the scoreboards, I'd recommend either the Bloodmark or the Imperium. Tensor Field is amazing for starting dom matches, and if the ship had a decent secondary weapon would actually be a pretty solid ship all the way around. As is, it lacks the punch, but you can give it healing drone, and Tensor really can be pretty huge.

 

The Imperium can be built to take a pretty serious beating with deflection armor and charged plating, and having access to Power Dive gives it a survivability leg up over the other strikes. I use Healing Probes pretty much exclusively as the Systems component on the Imperium, but Combat Command isn't terribly, and I think I've heard some people say Remote Slicing can be good.

 

Anyway, I'd look at the Razorwire, Imperium, and Bloodmark, probably in that order.

[Nemarus]

If you don't have premades on your server, then fly a Strike or T3 Bomber. You will be able to have fun attacking targets with lasers and missiles from 7k out, but your time to kill will be slow enough that new pilots may actually learn something before dying.

 

Each dedicated Bomber or Gunship you fly ultimately puts your fledgling GSF community at risk, because those ships are very, very hard for solo new players to counter.

 

It may be fun to blow up starter Scouts and Strikes with a railgun, or to cover a satellite in mines and drones and watch new pilots lemming into them, but every time you do that, you risk those people giving up on GSF and never queuing again.

 

GSF is very balanced at the top end, but at the bottom end, even stock Gunships and Bombers utterly destroy starter Scouts and Strikes. If you want your community to grow, you need to be mindful of it--the devs aren't going to fix anything any time soon.

 

If you want to just blow up slow moving targets from very far away, the PvE space game works well for that.

[Verain]

You need to say what you want out of the ship. For effectiveness, get the Razorwire immediately, followed likely by the Jungoran, then probably either Imperium or Bloodmark (you already have the Sting and Mangler, and of course you start with the Blackbolt, and you also have a Legion, so these ships would be a rough general order to fill out for power).

 

But for flight style diversity and interesting experiences, consider Nem's suggestions. Or consider whatever you think sounds fun, because each ship mostly flies the way they are described around here.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Verain

[tunewalker]

Looking at some of this, and some of what you were looking for. I would NORMALLY recommend the Razorwire, but considering the fledgeling Nature of the GSF community there and the fact that you are wanting to give a new ship a shot.

 

My suggestion would be the Imperium. It is a really fun ship to fly, works great when supporting allied bombers and Gunships. Its fairly weak to enemy gunships and has no answer for a scout that's on it, but it is one TOUGH cookie, be sure to get Repair probes as early as you can and you will be surprised at how Tough this thing can be, quads can also deal surprising damage if you catch an opponent un aware, and of course a Thermite is great for giving your team Armor Piercing. All in All its a wonderful ship for a starting GSF community. It doesnt kill TO fast as to discourage starting opponents. It doesnt DIE to fast to discourage the player flying it, and it adds a wonderful amount of team support for some one just starting to fly with a team.

 

If your server doesnt have premades but still FEELS heavily competitive, then the Razorwire is definately more the way to go, but from what it sounds like... you could probably pick nearly any ship and be fine, though I would stay away from the Dustmaker..... I personally just dont find that hunk of junk to be any fun to fly.

 

 

Edit: also to add to the "take a beating" side of things with the Imperium, the other way you can build it is Light Weight Armor with Directionals and with proper Directional play... it can STILL take one hell of a beating.

Edited April 29, 2015 by tunewalker

[Nemarus]

Looking at some of this, and some of what you were looking for. I would NORMALLY recommend the Razorwire, but considering the fledgeling Nature of the GSF community there and the fact that you are wanting to give a new ship a shot.

 

My suggestion would be the Imperium. It is a really fun ship to fly, works great when supporting allied bombers and Gunships. Its fairly weak to enemy gunships and has no answer for a scout that's on it, but it is one TOUGH cookie, be sure to get Repair probes as early as you can and you will be surprised at how Tough this thing can be, quads can also deal surprising damage if you catch an opponent un aware, and of course a Thermite is great for giving your team Armor Piercing. All in All its a wonderful ship for a starting GSF community. It doesnt kill TO fast as to discourage starting opponents. It doesnt DIE to fast to discourage the player flying it, and it adds a wonderful amount of team support for some one just starting to fly with a team.

 

If your server doesnt have premades but still FEELS heavily competitive, then the Razorwire is definately more the way to go, but from what it sounds like... you could probably pick nearly any ship and be fine, though I would stay away from the Dustmaker..... I personally just dont find that hunk of junk to be any fun to fly.

 

 

Edit: also to add to the "take a beating" side of things with the Imperium, the other way you can build it is Light Weight Armor with Directionals and with proper Directional play... it can STILL take one hell of a beating.

 

Yeah, Imperium really is a good choice. Unlike the other two Strikes, it actually has some unique capabilities that are not outdone by other ships. With Quads it's got a good, all-purpose weapon (though I highly recommend you use Wingman to bolster them).

 

You've got a variety of defensive options--if you want to be immune to the weapons of most starter ships and Bombers, go Charged Plating/Armor. If you want more general defenses, go Directional/Evasion. Power Dive is a must-have engine component. You can use it to travel distances quickly and cheaply (just pitch up 90 degrees, then Power "Dive" toward your destination), and you get a free missile break every 10 seconds. You'll occasionally crash into an asteroid you didn't know was there, but over time you'll get better with it.

 

Unfortunately, it's got a pretty crappy selection of secondary weapons. Thermite is probably the best choice, as landing one on a Bomber usually leads to a guaranteed kill. EMP Missiles can be good as well, especially once fully upgraded, since hit-or-miss you can guarantee shutting down your opponent's engine abilities for a while, making them easier for you and allies to shoot.

 

Man it would be amazing if Imperium had Concussion Missiles

Edited April 29, 2015 by Nemarus

[nyghtrunner]

You guys keep saying Thermite, but...

 

What about the pretty blue blooms?! #TeamProton

[Nemarus]

You guys keep saying Thermite, but...

 

What about the pretty blue blooms?! #TeamProton

 

There's a couple reasons why I believe Thermites are superior:

1) PT's cannot one-shot a turret. Thermite does.

2) PT's do not synergize with any other weapon except other PT's. If you hit someone with a PT--great, they are down ~800 hull. But they aren't dead--a PT cannot one-shot any ship. In fact a Bomber takes three PT's to kill. And anyone hit by a PT suffers no shield damage. That means your guns (and your teammates' guns) still need to cut through those shields before they can finish the job your PT started. Thermite, on the other hand, does more outright damage than a PT, makes your target's shields have 20% Bleedthrough, and removes damage reduction (including Charged Plating). A Thermite not only does a lot of damage on its own, but it all but guarantees your target will be finished off in short order by your own guns or your team.

 

Protons make a little bit more sense when paired with Heavy Laser Cannons, since HLC's already have shield- and armor-piercing on them, and thus do not benefit as much from the Thermite debuff. HLC's can "finish the job" the PT starts.

 

But an Imperium doesn't get HLC's. And I still think Thermites are a far better weapon for helping your team get kills, especially on Bombers.

 

Or put another way, the Thermite debuff gives every primary weapon the same utilities that HLC's get (shield and armor-piercing). Plus over 1100 damage. That's a good bargain, the goodness of which improves based on team coordination.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Nemarus

[nyghtrunner]

There's a couple reasons why I believe Thermites are superior:

1) PT's cannot one-shot a turret. Thermite does.

2) PT's do not synergize with any other weapon except other PT's. If you hit someone with a PT--great, they are down ~800 hull. But they aren't dead--a PT cannot one-shot any ship. In fact a Bomber takes three PT's to kill. And anyone hit by a PT suffers no shield damage. That means your guns (and your teammates' guns) still need to cut through those shields before they can finish the job your PT started. Thermite, on the other hand, does more outright damage than a PT, makes your target's shields have 20% Bleedthrough, and removes damage reduction (including Charged Plating). A Thermite not only does a lot of damage on its own, but it all but guarantees your target will be finished off in short order by your own guns or your team.

 

Protons make a little bit more sense when paired with Heavy Laser Cannons, since HLC's already have shield- and armor-piercing on them, and thus do not benefit as much from the Thermite debuff. HLC's can "finish the job" the PT starts.

 

But an Imperium doesn't get HLC's. And I still think Thermites are a far better weapon for helping your team get kills, especially on Bombers.

 

Or put another way, the Thermite debuff gives every primary weapon the same utilities that HLC's get (shield and armor-piercing). Plus over 1100 damage.

I'm not truly disputing the logic of thermite over protorp (although, to be fair, Protorp does have a crit chance at the higher levels, at which point, the damage starts to become roughly equal to thermite if you discount the debuffs). And In seriousness I tend to choose protorp on an Imperium because I pull that ship out in games that aren't really all that competitive, and I'm trying to "take it easy" on enemy pilots. At that point, it really does end up being about the pretty blue bloom for aesthetics, and not for competitive purposes.

 

I'm not going to dispute your logic, because I have no other actual logic to offer as counter.

 

But with that said... Pretty blue blooms! #TeamProton

 

*Full Disclosure - I'm in a wry mood. I think because of lack of sleeps...

[Nemarus]

I'm not truly disputing the logic of thermite over protorp (although, to be fair, Protorp does have a crit chance at the higher levels, at which point, the damage starts to become roughly equal to thermite if you discount the debuffs). And In seriousness I tend to choose protorp on an Imperium because I pull that ship out in games that aren't really all that competitive, and I'm trying to "take it easy" on enemy pilots. At that point, it really does end up being about the pretty blue bloom for aesthetics, and not for competitive purposes.

 

I'm not going to dispute your logic, because I have no other actual logic to offer as counter.

 

But with that said... Pretty blue blooms! #TeamProton

 

*Full Disclosure - I'm in a wry mood. I think because of lack of sleeps...

 

The thing is, even a crit torpedo only does 1308 damage, which won't even one-shot a Strike.

 

Honestly, I wish torpedoes just did 1300 damage straight, with zero chance to crit. Then a single torpedo would always one-shot a Scout, always one-shot a Gunship without Reinforced Hull, always red-hull a Strike, and always 2-shot a Bomber.

 

That would make them a very threatening weapon--though it would also further mandate the use of Distortion Field on ships that can.

[nyghtrunner]

The thing is, even a crit torpedo only does 1308 damage, which won't even one-shot a Strike.

 

Honestly, I wish torpedoes just did 1300 damage straight, with zero chance to crit. Then a single torpedo would always one-shot a Scout, always one-shot a Gunship without Reinforced Hull, always red-hull a Strike, and always 2-shot a Bomber.

 

That would make them a very threatening weapon--though it would also further mandate the use of Distortion Field on ships that can.

Yeah, but... Look, I see what you're saying with that, but if we're going to start breaking it down to competitive advantages and whatnot... If Thermite works like Plasma Rail, and I'm almost positive it does (Verain, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), then you can flip* directions, and it has to eat through your shields twice, which lessens the direct hull damage by a good portion. If that's correct, then while Thermite definitely is better when combined with other shots from you or allies, Protorp is the only one that can guarantee significant hull damage. And between the 2, it's a more reliable kill on something that has already been scrapping if you land it. Obviously, if I'm wrong about the direction thing w/regards to Thermite, then this argument totally goes out the window, but I'm pretty sure I've noticed that behavior in game.

 

The other thing... Saying the Pro-torp can't 1-shot strikes may be true, but hull health is one of the things the strikes are supposed to have going for them in the grand design scheme, they just don't have enough extra to matter in a world if 1.1-2.2+k crit BLCs with high evasion and such. The only 2 you're really worried about 1-shoting are the Scouts and Gunships with the meta the way it is. Bombers would be nice, but that's just totally not realistic.

 

As for the 1300 no crit argument; I think the perception is that people don't really like "headshots", or at least, they don't completely want that PVP environment with this game, so it does make some sense to minimize them via RNG**. It's kind of anecdotal, but I've definitely seen people upset about DO in TDMs and the 1-shots there, but I've never seen people upset about the other TDM buffs, even though those are still significant boosts, especially in the case of Engines. Insert argument about how if you're hit with one, you should die here. Just saying I think they tried to consciously stay away from 1-shots with the current meta.

 

So I will absolutely concede to you that Thermites are better with consideration to bombers and especially being a wingman for your team. I just think that there are decent reasons to just want the direct hull damage with the random 1-shot. And... pretty blue bloom***...

 

*Flipping meaning - If I'm facing away from you when you shoot, and it hits me in back, I can turn around, face you, and it has to eat through my front shields, and vice versa.

 

**RNG RULEZ ALL!! #ProcBased

 

***Larry, don't look at the light!

[Verain]

Yeah, but... Look, I see what you're saying with that, but if we're going to start breaking it down to competitive advantages and whatnot... If Thermite works like Plasma Rail, and I'm almost positive it does (Verain, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), then you can flip* directions, and it has to eat through your shields twice, which lessens the direct hull damage by a good portion.

 

This is correct, but I'll point out:

1)- 20% of damage goes through the shields, because 20% of ALL damage goes through shields when affected by thermite.

2)- Any additional shot gains 20% shield pierce and 100% armor ignore.

 

Plasma doesn't offer any of this. When you do the math, the thermite isn't very far behind the proton on hull damage.

 

The weaknesses of thermite are:

- Shorter range than proton (this is a substantial weakness, the range talent on the proton can be really important at times, even if you love point blanking as I do)

- Damage dealt as a dot, so your opponent has time to heal it, recharge shields, and as you point out, take the thermite damage on the shielded side. The enemy could also score a kill during this time.

 

A pretend weakness of thermite is:

- Your ally gets the kill instead of you sometimes, but if you proton a weak target it just dies instantly.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=786277

 

 

If you hit a shielded target and never follow up (it hides or whatever), then you've dealt 613 to hull, versus the average 916 from a proton. Any follow up is devastating, however, whereas the proton user and his allies still have to deal with the shielding.

 

I agree with Nemarus, but I'll also say this- if you made proton deal 1300 base or whatever, you would probably have proton balanced correctly, and you'd need to buff thermite some too. The two missiles are pretty well balanced against each other, but both are weaker than they should be. I think thermite is a little stronger, on average, but like... on a Clarion, do you feel obligated to take one over the other? I do not.

[nyghtrunner]

I agree with Nemarus, but I'll also say this- if you made proton deal 1300 base or whatever, you would probably have proton balanced correctly, and you'd need to buff thermite some too. The two missiles are pretty well balanced against each other, but both are weaker than they should be. I think thermite is a little stronger, on average, but like... on a Clarion, do you feel obligated to take one over the other? I do not.

Interesting stuff. I'd not really broken down the math to that point, or anything even close to it (And I guess missed that thread? Looks like it happened when I was home for Christmas, though, so not surprising), but it's interesting to see it broken down like that, so thank you for the link.

 

I guess experiences with both have kind of "told me" that landing either torpedo is pretty devastating unless you're in a fresh ship, and while I always enjoyed getting a DOT kill with Thermite on my Bloodpoints, I always preferred Protorp just because of the aesthetics, and so that dictates my decision when I have a choice. And as much fun as it is to see someone hit with a Thermite, and know based on their health that there's nothing they can do, and it's OK to switch targets and let them go die (or be killed by allies or whatever), I have a lot more fun loosing a Protorp on a target I'm pretty much sure can't stop it (engine/disto on CD, etc), going to the next target, and a few seconds later seeing the "[Nyghtrunner] has killed X" pop up and knowing that somewhere out there, there's a pretty blue bloom painting the stars.

 

For some reason, that just gives me the fuzzies. And it really is the only reason I choose protorp.

 

Looking at the numbers, and especially when combined with the effects of the debuff/DoT, I'd have to concede that Thermite looks like the much better missile from a min/max standpoint. But on the Clarion, I'm going to stick to my Protorps because I love them, and that's one of the reasons that ship is so much fun to fly for me.

[Verain]

A lot of people like protorps for aesthetic or kit reasons, but they are not a bad choice compared to thermites. Remember that a crit proton is pretty devastating and can kill ships that could comfortably tank a regular proton, and while that's worked into the average, it's not just a matter of consistent dps. And beginning a lock at 11k while boosting is a lot nicer than beginning the lock at 9k (the engine normally takes a little bit of time to register that you CAN begin a lock). Throw in the fact that it's widely believed (but never shown for sure) that proton "loses lock" a little less often than thermite, and you have a bit more than just the math to work with.

 

But the math does favor thermite, for sure. The best part about it, IMO, is shutting off plating- nothing like hitting a bomber trying to eat mines for his teammate with that and just having him implode.

[nyghtrunner]

Throw in the fact that it's widely believed (but never shown for sure) that proton "loses lock" a little less often than thermite, and you have a bit more than just the math to work with.

Yeah, I feel like I noticed that around the time 3.0 hit, and someone mentioned it in one of the bug threads (I think it was you, honestly). I tried flying with Thermites a bit on the Bloodpoint just to see if I could notice a difference, and sure as poop, it felt like it would drop lock for no reason at all. Much more than Protorps.

 

However, and while I don't fly anything with Thermite too often anymore, the few times in the last month or two I've taken a Bloodpoint out, it didn't seem like it was happening as much. Not sure if it was a bug, and they fixed, it, or perception, or even small sample size (or some combination of the 3), but it felt like that issue, at least, wasn't really an issue anymore.

 

I will note that between you and Nem, I've somewhat decided that if I were to bring a torpedo to a competitive match, it would be the Thermite for bombers. But in other matches, you can take my Protorps from my cold dead hands!

[ThrakhathSpawn]

Which ship to choose, maybe level some toons, the introduction to GSF mission lets you pick a ship in essence(5K fleet req.)

 

I flew on a few toons new to gsf, tried diff ships, and learned what I liked/didn't like.

 

My five ship load out, would be hailed as horrible here, yet I have decent success with it. (My gun ship is cluster/interdiction/burst, all super short range weapons, etc.)

 

You can make about any ship work for you, but you really want an inventory of options. If a specific ship kills me, I try to have a counter I can hop into for a 'venge kill.

[Verain]

Get the type 1 gunship (Mangler / Quarrel) AND the type 1 bomber (Razorwire / Rampart)

 

For revenge kills, you will almost always want a gunship (because you can hit your target without them seeing it coming sometimes) or a scout (because you can chase them down). A bomber is certainly great against many ships, but you can't really hunt and kill with it.

[Ramalina]

I did the balancing math at one point, and at roughly 1250 -1300 base damage for proton torpedoes you need to bump thermite up to around 1700 damage to maintain torpedo strength parity.

 

Even at those levels you can't one shot a strike, or even a GS with reinforced armor (if you can find one).

 

It would allow one shots of evasion based builds, and two shots of bombers that don't get heals between hits.

 

Torps would still be pretty much irrelevant in the meta though, because no matter what their damage values, they still have to hit something in order to do damage, and not hitting things is their primary mode of failure (or is it their primary mode of function? Hard to tell sometimes).