Sixth Line Order

[Senrie]

I don't really know why you keep bringing up the Sixth Line. I'm responding to what you said about pre-Ruusan jedi being so different from post-Ruusan:

 

..it might make you see that the jedi of post Ruusan/ Yoda land ARE not the jedi we are dealing with between Revan and then. The order was VERY different.

 

They weren't. The only jedi that were significantly different were the New Sith Wars ones.

 

The Jedi ALWAYS serve the Republic.

 

Jedi during the New Sith Wars more served themselves.

[Ghisallo]

I don't really know why you keep bringing up the Sixth Line. I'm responding to what you said about pre-Ruusan jedi being so different from post-Ruusan:

 

because this entire thread is about the 6th line and that comment was made in the context of this thread. I am about context, not cherry picking.

 

They weren't. The only jedi that were significantly different were the New Sith Wars ones.

 

yes they were but maybe you miss the subtely of it all. basically picture every generation of the Jedi order as being like the US in the 1930s leading up to 1941. They deny the war will touch them because they remember the horrors of the last one. HOWEVER as soon as they are the direct target they go 100% ALL in. The whole hand ringing "lets think about this" goes right out the damn window each and every time.

 

Even Yoda comments on this when he admits it was HIS failure that the Jedi Order was unprepared for such a war.

 

We are now in a straight up militant Jedi Order Era now. During the Cold War they tried to avoid it in the shock of the destroyed etc. However if you can not see how Jedi leading entire fleets, going to the battle front, authorizing the formation of assasination task forces doesn't change the nature of the Jedi order from the ideal we like to THINK of into the pragmatic order that changes with the times it actually is... then sorry you are simply ignoring the facts smacking us all in the face.

 

Jedi during the New Sith Wars more served themselves.

 

No, they served the Republic. They LED themselves in battle, not under an over arching Republic Military banner yes... but they did so in the interests of the Republic and in the service of Democracy up to the point that when they thought the Sith were destroyed they gave up their titles, their armor, their fleets etc. They could damn well have said "try to taken em from us Chancellor and their would not have been BUPTKIS the force blind of the Republic could have done to stop it.

 

I REALLY think you need to read more of the source books that are related to all of this (the one published for this game as well as Jedi v Sith, a history of the Jedi order, the Jedia Way which is essentially the Jedi Order Primer that initiates are given when they begin their training etc.) because you seem to be missing a lot of key information.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Senrie]

because this entire thread is about the 6th line and that comment was made in the context of this thread. I am about context, not cherry picking.

 

The context of the Sixth Line changes nothing you or I've said. And frankly, you're placing far too much importance on what the Sixth Line represents even though you say you aren't.

 

yes they were but maybe you miss the subtely of it all. basically picture every generation of the Jedi order as being like the US in the 1930s leading up to 1941.

 

I just want to say right now you have an annoying habit of bringing real life comparisons into these discussions. It really bogs them down.

 

They deny the war will touch them because they remember the horrors of the last one. HOWEVER as soon as they are the direct target they go 100% ALL in. The whole hand ringing "lets think about this" goes right out the damn window each and every time.

 

Even Yoda comments on this when he admits it was HIS failure that the Jedi Order was unprepared for such a war.

 

Unprepared or not, they still mobilized. Where's the difference?

 

However if you can not see how Jedi leading entire fleets

 

Yoda's jedi did that. Where's the difference?

 

going to the battle front

 

Yoda's jedi did that. Where's the difference?

 

authorizing the formation of assasination task forces doesn't change the nature of the Jedi order from the ideal we like to THINK of into the pragmatic order that changes with the times it actually is... then sorry you are simply ignoring the facts smacking us all in the face.

 

The smoking gun of Satele saying destroy the Emperor again.

. Where's the difference?

 

There is no difference. Not between KOTOR's jedi and Yoda's jedi.

 

No, they served the Republic. They LED themselves in battle, not under an over arching Republic Military banner yes... but they did so in the interests of the Republic and in the service of Democracy up to the point that when they thought the Sith were destroyed they gave up their titles, their armor, their fleets etc. They could damn well have said "try to taken em from us Chancellor and their would not have been BUPTKIS the force blind of the Republic could have done to stop it.

 

At the end most of them did that. That doesn't change what they did throughout which is where the difference lies:

 

Jedi Lords began their careers as knights on quests to defend abandoned worlds from slavery and exploitation. Gradually they came to hold political authority over systems and entire sectors, and became hereditary barons and kings. [...] Eventually even the office of Supreme Chancellor and the rule of Coruscant itself were ceded to a line of Jedi Masters.

 

When Lord Hoth decided to take the offensive against the Sith in 1010 BBY he gathered Jedi Lords and their bands of knights from across the galaxy, a movement that swelled until the last Grand Council of the Order declared all the Jedi baronies united as the Army of Light.

 

The core of this army consisted of seven legions led by the greatest Jedi Lords, who followed Hoth directly into battle. [...] They were supported by Republic units that preferred Jedi leadership to the orders of the Admiralty, and by additional forces such as the private army of the half-Bothan Valenthyne Farfalla. Farfalla commanded one of the largest fighting companies of Force-wielders ever seen--a personal retinue of one hundred knights and esquires, and a feudal following of two hundred more.

 

Veterans of the Army of Light were ignored by the reformed Jedi Order, which was embarrassed both by their politics and by the tragedy of Ruusan. The few surviving Jedi Lords returned to their castles and took care of their men, calmly ignoring the orders of the Jedi on Coruscant, and maintained a wary detachment from the Republic for centuries.

 

Barons and kings. Castles and feudal caste systems. Controlling the Republic rather than serving it. This is nothing like what the jedi of this era or under Yoda did. Let me now bring up this conversation the Knight (could of) had with Kira for thought:

 

Kira: Say you could only save the Republic or the Jedi Order. Which would you choose and why? Don't think--answer.

Knight: Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, but the Republic embodies those qualities. It comes first.

Kira: Wrong answer, Padawan. If the Jedi Order is destroyed, who will save the Republic? The Jedi have to come first.

Knight: Without a Republic to defend, would we still be Jedi? Or would we become something else?

 

Kira: It's time Jedi got political. Letting Senators run the Republic? Not working out. We get the big picture, have the power to make things better. We should have control. What if the Republic's how it is because the Jedi won't take charge? What if a little compromise is exactly what's needed?

 

I REALLY think you need to read more of the source books that are related to all of this (the one published for this game as well as Jedi v Sith, a history of the Jedi order, the Jedia Way which is essentially the Jedi Order Primer that initiates are given when they begin their training etc.) because you seem to be missing a lot of key information.

 

You seem to not comprehend the information you have. You're conflating the New Sith Wars with this era, and that's all there is to it.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Senrie

[Senrie]

Theron: Saresh and Master Satele weren't all that excited to find out I had a team of black-ops Jedi on call without their knowledge.

[Ghisallo]

There is a difference between saying that Satele is upset that HE had them on call without her knowledge and the fact that she does not know the 6th line exists...it is the existence of the 6th line and whether it is seen as, for lack of a better term, "heretical", that has been the point of the argument since page one.

[Senrie]

You also have an annoying habit of responding to arguments that aren't made.

 

It's part of the discussion to find out what the Sixth Line actually is. That Satele didn't sanction the Ziost action puts the final piece of the puzzle in for me.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Senrie

[gothshark]

I feel the need to chime in.

 

For starters...

 

There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)

There is no death, there is the Force.

(There is no contemplation, there is only duty.)

 

Every line in that code comes from EU content, it is not official canon any more. As such Bioware can freely modify the code to create a new villain group for end game content by adding a extra line.

 

As for justifying the addition of a line for duty, it turns the Mantra that people call a code into a tool to empower leaders of the Sixth line group. They go from light side Jedi to 'grey' Jedi by adding that line, it's a way to justify not doing the right thing.

 

But there is more, and this is a weakness of the Jedi order and the canon universe and the EU universe. The Jedi Order is not on the side of good, they are on the side of neutrality. The Dark Side is about the dark side of passion, but there is also a light side of passion which has never really been explored.

 

The best way to describe this is by using D&D alignments.

 

-Jedi code leads to True Neutral with a Good lean.

-The Sith code can be almost any alignment as long as it is not a Neutral alignment, now the thing is in the movies Anakin Skywalker was lawful Good, moved to Lawful Neutral, and became Lawful Evil. The thing is Jedi as a whole didn't do Lawful, they were mostly Neutral Good, and only followed the Law as a good suggestion. Anakin was a Lawful purist, and he felt betrayed when the Jedi didn't follow the rules.

 

This new order the sixthliners are Lawful. They have chosen to go against the Neutral Good tenancies of the Jedi Order, to serve and be dutiful.

[Kyrrant]

-Jedi code leads to True Neutral with a Good lean.

-The Sith code can be almost any alignment as long as it is not a Neutral alignment, now the thing is in the movies Anakin Skywalker was lawful Good, moved to Lawful Neutral, and became Lawful Evil. The thing is Jedi as a whole didn't do Lawful, they were mostly Neutral Good, and only followed the Law as a good suggestion. Anakin was a Lawful purist, and he felt betrayed when the Jedi didn't follow the rules.

 

This new order the sixthliners are Lawful. They have chosen to go against the Neutral Good tenancies of the Jedi Order, to serve and be dutiful.

 

I'd normally agree, and that's what I thought they were going with this, but the final part of the Republic-side content doesn't bear that out because...

 

 

If they were straight lawful, they wouldn't have been acting without the knowledge of both the head of the Jedi Order and the leader of the Republic they're fighting for.

 

Really, since every Sixth Order NPC we've met thus far can be dead, and thus won't show up again beyond a scattered mention here and there, we're not going to get answers until a new crop of them do show up, assuming they ever do.

 

 

I hope they do, though. Much as I dislike the specifics I read from the brief glimpses, I do hope they expand on it in a way that makes it work, and not just be a concept thrown together to make Theron's life harder.

[Robtheace]

hmm very interesting

[Doom_Random]

I see absolutely no problems with The Sixth Line.

 

 

One, the Jedi as a whole have always been warriors, like it or not. They're trained for martial combat, though mainstream Jedi insist on not using their combat prowess if they can help it. This means they are not above kicking someone's ***, but they prefer not to.

 

These new Jedi have much in common with the Revanchists (as someone mentioned, i think). They pride action over inaction. How many instances have we noticed that Jedi don't act until theyve been poked with a stick numerous times? Why don't they make use of their skills sooner?

 

Basically: TSL: Warriors from start to finish, plain and simple. Mainsteam JO: Space Nuns until poked.

[Doom_Random]

I'd normally agree, and that's what I thought they were going with this, but the final part of the Republic-side content doesn't bear that out because...

 

 

If they were straight lawful, they wouldn't have been acting without the knowledge of both the head of the Jedi Order and the leader of the Republic they're fighting for.

 

 

Let's be honest, Saresh is a complete moron. Seriously, go through the Trooper story and reach the ending.

And with or without Satele's blessing, i have a feeling these Jedi would of helped Theron anyway. Revan certainly had quite the following despite that Council saying 'No.'

[Ghisallo]

You also have an annoying habit of responding to arguments that aren't made.

 

It's part of the discussion to find out what the Sixth Line actually is. That Satele didn't sanction the Ziost action puts the final piece of the puzzle in for me.

 

And you have an annoying habit opf making arguments that are not actually relevant to the thread. The point of the thread is, in essence, is "there is no contemplation there is only duty" antithetical to the Jedi order. Simply because you want to try and create a sub argument (usually referred to as a derail) doesn't mean I have to entertain you.

 

Sorry but I have a rather anal retentive thing about staying on topic. Want to start another thread... feel free but this thread has a specific point.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Kyrrant]

Let's be honest, Saresh is a complete moron. Seriously, go through the Trooper story and reach the ending.

And with or without Satele's blessing, i have a feeling these Jedi would of helped Theron anyway. Revan certainly had quite the following despite that Council saying 'No.'

 

One event does not define a character, and frankly that single situation seems so out of character for Saresh its practically baffling. At best, I can only reason it as being a foolhardy political ploy to solidify her base right after obtaining power.

 

I suggest tossing that scene aside and looking to her other appearances. That paints a much, much more cohesive character.

[Senrie]

And you have an annoying habit opf making arguments that are not actually relevant to the thread. The point of the thread is, in essence, is "there is no contemplation there is only duty" antithetical to the Jedi order.

 

Look at the OP. See how he's asking questions about what they are, what they could be?

 

There's two routes that you can go with this concept. The first is that its just a group of Jedi trying to protect the Republic and leaving the long-term planning to the main Jedi Order. Actually being soldiers, just not in the military because......................................... Jedi? Because I guess Jedi wouldn't enter the military, they have to be in a super-special Jedi Order?

 

That, of course, belies my concern for the other, more likely route this could take: Jedi in Name Only, pro-Republic Force Users with more in common with Sith than Jedi, just worrying about fighting and killing and less about, you know, being a light to guide the Republic away from darkness, so that the Imperial characters can kill Republic peoples but still maintain a moral high ground.

 

Tell me how acting on their own authority without Satele or anyone else on the Council isn't relevant for me to bring up the day we got that information.

 

The Sixth Line is not an order. It's not a sect. It's one tiny little squad with a cute motto. The Sixth Line isn't even a real name. I would be surprised if we see any of them again unless their scope is drastically altered after what happened on Ziost(such as a large group of jedi being moved to take up the name).

 

Everything else I've said was in direct response to flawed arguments you made. Don't be upset because I had to correct you.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Senrie

[MusicRider]

Didn't go through all the posts but this sixth line is simply complementary to the others, that there is a time for action (duty) versus thinking and self-reflection (contemplation). It has nothing to do with ignorance, other than "ignorance" of the consequences (i.e. the goal justifies the means), which in any case the true consequences even via contemplation are merely a prediction; and that is the reason for its existence. But action without goal can be erratic, hence the term "duty" in it.

 

In the movies the one that follows this sixth line is Mace Windu and Anakin, where the exact opposite is Yoda who often "meditate on this he shalls".

 

Bottom line is that the sixth line is meant to provide a means for Jedis to be (pro)active rather than always passively reflective. It is only that this group of Jedis gives more emphasis to this line than the rest.

[MusicRider]

except WOULD she? you tjhink the grand master would approve of Jedi just tacking new stuff onto the jedi code?

 

A jedi grand master would not. The grand master Shatele definitely would. I wouldn't even be surprised if she was their non-field leader. There has always been something "dark" in her, that she always tries to cover and control. After all she is a descendant of Revan .

[Ghisallo]

A jedi grand master would not. The grand master Shatele definitely would. I wouldn't even be surprised if she was their non-field leader. There has always been something "dark" in her, that she always tries to cover and control. After all she is a descendant of Revan .

 

I wouldn't even go that far. They don't force it on others...it is THEIR motto. It is no different, imo, than "Ranger's lead the Way" or "If you ain't Cav, you ain't **it." If you read the lore, read the EU source books, what "we" call the Jedi Code is simply a mantra, a way to focus yourself in times of stress. They are NOT literal. I posted earlier what the EU says "there is no emotion, there is only peace" and the rest mean.

 

Instead of looking at what the lore actually says though people take them literally and treat them like Moses bringing the 10 commandments down from the Mountain. If you have a problem with that look at what Luke did to it with his new Jedi Order. I suppose he was not a "true" Jedi then?

[MusicRider]

I wouldn't even go that far. They don't force it on others...it is THEIR motto. It is no different, imo, than "Ranger's lead the Way" or "If you ain't Cav, you ain't **it." If you read the lore, read the EU source books, what "we" call the Jedi Code is simply a mantra, a way to focus yourself in times of stress. They are NOT literal. I posted earlier what the EU says "there is no emotion, there is only peace" and the rest mean.

 

Instead of looking at what the lore actually says though people take them literally and treat them like Moses bringing the 10 commandments down from the Mountain. If you have a problem with that look at what Luke did to it with his new Jedi Order. I suppose he was not a "true" Jedi then?

 

I agree. In my opinion the original code was much better expressed http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Code. It is surprising that Odan-Urr being a scholar never heard of peer-review, cause there were no many flaws with his rephrasing.

[Ghisallo]

I agree. In my opinion the original code was much better expressed http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Code. It is surprising that Odan-Urr being a scholar never heard of peer-review, cause there were no many flaws with his rephrasing.

 

Well when you read source books like "The Jedi Way" the purpose of the rephrasing wasn't to be taken literally word for word.

 

Before that rephrasing it was, in his opinion, confusing. When you hear "emotion yet peace" is it clear that "one should not allow their emotions to govern their actions" or does it say "you must balance how much your emotions control your actions"? The Jedi firmly believe in the former and and not the later but Odan-Urr commented that while every Jedi knew the code if you asked them what the code meant they had issues. The thing is, as this is a mantra more than anything else, it would be a tad awkward to say

 

-We all have emotions as living, feeling beings but one must never allow emotion to cloud one's Judgement

-There will always one must never simply stop at "i don't know", always expand your knowledge and search for answers.

-as living feeling beings we will always have strong emotions for specific people or causes. One must be ever mindful to not allow these to control our actions.

-the world around us will be filled with tings we can not control. We must not try to force our will on the universe however. Instead we must be calm in the eye of the storm, not allowing this chaos to cause frustration which can lead to anger.

-do not fear death for when one dies they become one with the Force.

 

If Odan-Urr actually believed in having NO emotion he would also not be on record as a proponent of quiet meditation, meditating on his emotions to be certain they were not clouding his judgement.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Ghisallo

[BrianDavion]

A jedi grand master would not. The grand master Shatele definitely would. I wouldn't even be surprised if she was their non-field leader. There has always been something "dark" in her, that she always tries to cover and control. After all she is a descendant of Revan .

 

whom her ancestor of 300 years hence was has little meaning.

 

it'd be like comparing me to my ancestor living in the year 1700.

 

it's a safe bet said person's influance on me is pretty minimal

[Ghisallo]

whom her ancestor of 300 years hence was has little meaning.

 

it'd be like comparing me to my ancestor living in the year 1700.

 

it's a safe bet said person's influance on me is pretty minimal

 

Ahh but SW has been big on destiny's being along family lines... either following them, fulfilling them or fighting them. It's actually a rather common trope in fantasy and Sci-Fi that introduces the "generational" theme.

 

That said I think from her actions it is pretty clear. She has no issues leading an entire fleet on her own...which means ordering people to their deaths if necessary and the killing of hundreds if not thousands of people (fleet battles being what they are). She has NO problem at all pimp slapping Saresh n the holo and saying "we have been fighting this war for..." AND no problem forming a Joint Jedi, SIS, Military task force whose sole purpose is the death of the Emperor. She is a Jedi who sees that there i a time to contemplate early on, BUT as the War progressed has clearly become a Jedi of Action.

 

I think the turning point for her was what happened on the failed attempt to capture the Emperor. After that we have the Jedi Consular leading Armies on Corellia, we have the JK being Supreme Commander of Jedi Forces... The fact that there is are "Jedi Forces", let alone a "Supreme Commander", is a HUGE change. This is a Jedi Order at War people... end of story. I have no doubt there is some Yoda like guy off in corner wringing his hands over the whole thing but Satele is the Grand master and she is leading the Order the way a Jedi Warrior of old would, not the stereotypical contemplative one.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Ghisallo