Sixth Line Order

[Kyrrant]

...I'm sorry, but...

 

...really, Bioware?

 

For those that don't know, 3.2 will see the introduction of a group of Jedi, a militaristic sect defined by a new, sixth line to the Jedi Code: There is no contemplation, there is only duty.

 

I'm struggling not to facepalm too hard here.

 

First off, that line... the issue is that "Contemplation" is... well, its somewhat related to "Knowledge" and its an antonym to "Ignorance". To not contemplate (aka, THINK) about something is to remain ignorant of its consequences. This order would, in effect, be expressedly opposed to actually considering the consequences of their actions, to being nothing more than soldiers for the Republic.

 

There's two routes that you can go with this concept. The first is that its just a group of Jedi trying to protect the Republic and leaving the long-term planning to the main Jedi Order. Actually being soldiers, just not in the military because......................................... Jedi? Because I guess Jedi wouldn't enter the military, they have to be in a super-special Jedi Order?

 

That, of course, belies my concern for the other, more likely route this could take: Jedi in Name Only, pro-Republic Force Users with more in common with Sith than Jedi, just worrying about fighting and killing and less about, you know, being a light to guide the Republic away from darkness, so that the Imperial characters can kill Republic peoples but still maintain a moral high ground.

 

For the record, I'm not saying this is a hopeless idea, or an idea that could never work. There's plenty of ways this could work (such as the first option, but justified a bit stronger, maybe with a number of actual Jedi to keep the soldier-Jedi from becoming Sith), but at this point... I don't have confidence that the concept can be properly executed, not without coming off like a weak way to add more 'evil to everyone' sides to things.

[Galdos]

I figured it is very similar to Revan and his followers during the Mandalorian Wars. The Jedi Order was spending so much time thinking (about the threat behind the Mandos) that they were going to move too late to stop the Mandos.

 

So these Jedi, like Revan's old followers, take an agreesive approach to defend the Republic with the focus of doing what it is needed to defeated the Empire so others wont have to. This means most of these Jedi will be more Grey are Dark aligned (so Jedi only in name as you said)

 

Im a little confused on you topic Im sorry. Are you trying to promote discussion on how logical this order is? Or simply will Bioware do a good job at presenting them because if it is the 2nd option. I have to admit I think this may be a little difficult to pull off without either making the Republic/Jedi look evil for no reason or these characters just appear dumb.

[Kyrrant]

Im a little confused on you topic Im sorry. Are you trying to promote discussion on how logical this order is? Or simply will Bioware do a good job at presenting them because if it is the 2nd option. I have to admit I think this may be a little difficult to pull off without either making the Republic/Jedi look evil for no reason or these characters just appear dumb.

 

...a little from column A, a little from column B.

 

I'll always prefer a smarter, well executed version of characters... and especially ones that are aligned with the ostensible 'good guys' but aren't good. I love moral complexity, but I loathe 'evil for evil's sake'.

 

That said, I do enjoy seeing other people's perspectives on what I see. My view of the Jedi, for the most part, is that they (as a group) should always be trying to do the right thing. They can fail massively, like during the Mandalorian Wars, they can turn into well-intentioned extremists and cause suffering because they've lost sight of the truth, they can do horrible things for good reasons... or maybe only what they think are good reasons...

 

...but I just start frowning when they start coming off like what you'd expect of a stereotypical Sith. The "Sixth Line" is particularly cringe-worthy, because of how it seems to directly contradict line 3 (There is no ignorance, there is knowledge). I just can't see the Jedi characters we've seen in the non-Imperial stories ever accepting that sort of thing.

 

(I say non-Imperial stories because... well, the Imperial stories tends to portray Jedi as psychotic, hypocritical bastards needing killing... exactly what I fear these "Sixth Order" types will turn into)

[gblXsw]

First off, that line... the issue is that "Contemplation" is... well, its somewhat related to "Knowledge" and its an antonym to "Ignorance". To not contemplate (aka, THINK) about something is to remain ignorant of its consequences. This order would, in effect, be expressedly opposed to actually considering the consequences of their actions, to being nothing more than soldiers for the Republic.

 

Where did you look it up that told you contemplation was an antonym to ignorance? It is not. Ignorance is simply the state of being ignorant, contemplation in its main meaning is the act of a deep, devoted musing over mostly spiritual matters, it can be meditation or an intense study.

 

No contemplation is not the absence of considering consequences; all it means is that they don't concern themselves with trying to gain greater understanding of the force, but concentrate on the worldly tasks of Jedi.

[Ghisallo]

Contemplation in the context of a pseudo-religious order means deep reflection and/or mediation on issues. It is not an antonym to ignorance, though it can be a way to avoid ignorance. This can as was said above, being all Zen and simply meditating on the nature of the force or it can be the intense study of a problem. We saw where this got the Jedi Order in Episode III where if they would have not be virtually paralyzed by the need to contemplate how to address Palpatine the order may not have been destroyed.

 

All "there is no contemplation, there is duty means" in the context of the 6th line means (in longer words) is that there comes a point when meditating on any practical matter amounts to inaction. The Jedi Order has a duty to protect the Republic and to accomplish that requires action, sometimes instinctively and without extensive deliberation meditating on every possible consequence regardless of how tangential it may be. In short... Yeah you should think about things but at some point you have to pull the trigger.

 

Its no different than any other portions of the Jedi code. "There is no emotion, there is peace" and "there is no passion there is serenity" does NOT mean "you are the Star Wars version of a Vulcan, an emotionless biological computer." It means you do not allow those emotions and passions to control you, instead you control them.

 

I think it would be more clear if the Jedi still used the original Jedi code and added the sixth line...

 

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

Contemplation, yet duty (action)

 

When you remove the "nots" (added by Odan-Urr after the first great Sith War) it makes more sense I think

Edited April 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Galdos]

Contemplation in the context of a pseudo-religious order means deep reflection and/or mediation on issues. It is not an antonym to ignorance, though it can be a way to avoid ignorance. This can as was said above, being all Zen and simply meditating on the nature of the force or it can be the intense study of a problem. We saw where this got the Jedi Order in Episode III where if they would have not be virtually paralyzed by the need to contemplate how to address Palpatine the order may not have been destroyed.

 

All "there is no contemplation, there is duty means" in the context of the 6th line means (in longer words) is that there comes a point when meditating on any practical matter amounts to inaction. The Jedi Order has a duty to protect the Republic and to accomplish that requires action, sometimes instinctively and without extensive deliberation meditating on every possible consequence regardless of how tangential it may be. In short... Yeah you should think about things but at some point you have to pull the trigger.

 

Its no different than any other portions of the Jedi code. "There is no emotion, there is peace" and "there is no passion there is serenity" does NOT mean "you are the Star Wars version of a Vulcan, an emotionless biological computer." It means you do not allow those emotions and passions to control you, instead you control them.

 

I think it would be more clear if the Jedi still used the original Jedi code and added the sixth line...

 

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

Contemplation, yet duty (action)

 

When you remove the "nots" (added by Odan-Urr after the first great Sith War) it makes more sense I think

 

I think this covers it great. I can easily see this order coming into existence in the universe. Now the Jedi we have encountered would not go for it but I can see an order being created

[plohero]

was the line contemplation duty or contemplate do?

[Kyrrant]

Where did you look it up that told you contemplation was an antonym to ignorance? It is not. Ignorance is simply the state of being ignorant, contemplation in its main meaning is the act of a deep, devoted musing over mostly spiritual matters, it can be meditation or an intense study.

 

No contemplation is not the absence of considering consequences; all it means is that they don't concern themselves with trying to gain greater understanding of the force, but concentrate on the worldly tasks of Jedi.

 

For the record: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/contemplation

 

The problem is that the existence of this "Sixth Order" feels like its denigrating the actual Order and comes off as foolhardy, given how often the horrors of war are seen to corrupt and shatter Jedi. There are plenty of more brawl-y Jedi out there who do understand that you can't sit around thinking for hours before acting. Hell, Satele in Shadows of Revan adapts very quickly, not needing to meditate on things for hours in order to start taking action against the Revanites.

 

So either the Jedi are, bizarrely, okay with this Order being created (...which would be extremely out of character for them...), or this is being done over their head by the Senate, and maybe the Chancellor herself.......... which would make some sense, she'd probably want a sect of Jedi loyal to her, not the whims of the Jedi Council, like that uptight b- woman who stopped fighting the Sith in order to take her forces against some trivial little threat without consulting anyone about it.

 

(Damn it, I need to stop talking myself into liking these things I'm ranting against...)

 

I suppose its more that I want this to seem like something that would actually work, and not be destined to blow up in everyone's faces... because its obviously going to blow up in everyone's faces, it'd serve a large number of story potential if it blew up in everyone's faces, it'd make writing the conflict between the two sides so much easier if it blew up in everyone's faces...

 

...but I'd like it to seem like something that was created by intelligent beings in-universe, who were acutely aware that they're playing with fire and took steps to try to avoid making it blow up in everyone's faces. Its why I brought up Jedi Chaplains, because given the obvious risks of a militaristic sect of Jedi, it'd be an obvious step to have an Orgus Din-like Jedi being assigned to them to liaise with the regular Order, to help the Sixth Liners stay (aha) in line and to make it seem like the leaders in question have more than two brain cells to rub together...

[Ghisallo]

For the record the link you provided did not show ignorance as an antonym... Instead it shows:disdain, disregard, neglect, rejection, slight.

 

That said... Satele could be seen as a straw man argument...she is far from your "typical" Jedi.

 

Do not open spoiler if you don't want to know the story of the 6th line on PTS

 

 

since it is on PTS. The Jedi almost have to know about it because of the number of Jedi and the fact that a Jedi Master is involved. Saresh is actually PISSED when she finds out about it though, it was basically Theron Shan's baby, these Jedi have been recruited into the SIS not the military. Think of them like SIS Spec ops (RL CIA has their own operators as an analogue.). Also the existence of the 6th line really isn't what blows up in anyone's face. The Emperor basically mentally dominates most of the population on Ziost prior to our character's arrival. The 6th line Jedi got there first as they were doing an operation with Theron looking for the Emperor. This would have happened to any team under the circumstances so it was Theron doing a clandestine AND unauthorized op that blew up in their face...sorta because without that we would have no clue we needed to stop Vitiate.

 

 

I don't see it as denigrating at all towards the order as a whole but I would find it denigrating to some specific Jedi yeah. Like I said we see, the tendency the 6th line is against, essentially lead to the destruction of the entire order in the PT. Yoda even acknowledges this in the end. The Jedi all have different ways of seeing their place in greater scheme and in the force. This seems more like a specific group coming together with a shared goal and then specifically defining their stance on where they stand. Would this be seen as an indictment of the views of some other specific Jedi? Yeah but any organization will have such differences of opinion. Some will let it pass, some will be patronizing others will just be blunt in their expression of the difference. The 6th line is just the later.

 

Also, again, I think you also are taking the entire Jedi Code to literally. That code is not about absolutes. If it was Jedi would all be emotionless pacifists living in monasteries or as hermits in a caves meditating on the nature of existence. While I am sure there are some like this there are also compassionate bringers of aid, justice, righteous warriors and insightful counsulars. That is why I posted the original Jedi Code before it was altered by Odan Urr. The code the Jedi use in the time of SWTOR is only ~ 1000 years old. When one looks at how long the Order had been around by the time of SWTOR that's what 5% of its total existence? Odan-Urr said

 

Certainly a Jedi should know the Code, by word and by heart. But every Jedi is in some fashion negligent, from the lowest Padawan to the highest Master. Consequently, were some to demand, 'What is the true meaning of the Jedi Code?' the Jedi who promptly answered would be rare indeed.

 

One of the reasons he changed the wording was to make Jedi THINK about it so they were not flummoxed when asked that question. It would also seem odd if the person who said "there is no emotion" also said Jedi should meditate on their emotions regularly in order to be sure they were not influencing their actions if the code he wrote meant that literally Jedi should have NO emotion period.

 

As Obi Wan said in RotS "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Edited April 20, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Trevallian]

To be fair, as a long time fan of all things Star Wars and the Jedi in particular, I do have some very strong reservations about this 6th line business. Primarily because it comes off as little more than a marketing ploy and a not too well thought out one at that. True, I am still very new to this side of the fandom, having only been involved with the game for a few months, but I still think this is wrong. And at the risk of severe ridicule, I shall put my feelings across.

 

It would be fair to say, that the Jedi order has been involved in some way with many conflicts throughout the Star Wars history, but to imply there is a sect with an official military status, does not sit right with me. Like Mace Windu said, "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

 

Now, I can imagine, as was seen during the clone wars, that having a Jedi at the front of your column, would have a very calming and inspirational effect for the troops. So what then, would be the mind state of Joe Trooper, if he saw said Jedi as part of an order that was all action, carving great swathes through the enemy with an air bordering on bloodlust? That is how I see this going, but not how I see what a Jedi should be.

[Ghisallo]

In the Lore there are Jedi Lords and Generals. They have their own war ships and an organized Military force which the called "The Army of Light." Heck they had their own battle cruisers. The military forces were disbanded and the ranks and titles discarded during the Ruusan Reformation when they thought the Sith had been destroyed (when Darth Bane instituted the Rule of 2) so the common people did not see the Jedi as an occupying army. Such an order with in the Jedi is well within the Lore of this Time period because the Ruusan Reformation is the line where the "Golden Age of the Republic" (read the age destroyed by Sidious) began and that was only like 1000 years before the Clone Wars...we are in a time period over 3500 years before the clone wars.

 

As for your last bit...how do duty and bloodlust become synonymous?

Edited April 20, 2015 by Ghisallo

[OrinVlado]

As Obi Wan said in RotS "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

 

I hate it when he says that. That line itself, is an absolute. I love the jedi (i main a guardian) and everything, but that line right there drives me crazy because it is so hypocritical. It's kind of at that point in ROTS that I'm glad the jedi were almost wiped out because they needed a different perspective and a reset to start off right. Anywho there's my mini soap box scream...

[Ghisallo]

I hate it when he says that. That line itself, is an absolute. I love the jedi (i main a guardian) and everything, but that line right there drives me crazy because it is so hypocritical. It's kind of at that point in ROTS that I'm glad the jedi were almost wiped out because they needed a different perspective and a reset to start off right. Anywho there's my mini soap box scream...

 

How is it hypocritcal? he is referring to a specific comment "if you are not with me you are against me." The jedi believe in debate, in different opinions, in expressing them. That is the essence of democracy, that people can see the same thing but come to different conclusions.

 

The only thing where they "lock themselves in" is how they see the light side vs the dark side really. And since in Lucas' world the Dark Side is indeed Evil and out to enslave the cosmos... the jedi are right in that belief in a very literal way.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Temeluchus]

How is it hypocritcal? he is referring to a specific comment "if you are not with me you are against me." The jedi believe in debate, in different opinions, in expressing them. That is the essence of democracy, that people can see the same thing but come to different conclusions.

 

The only thing where they "lock themselves in" is how they see the light side vs the dark side really. And since in Lucas' world the Dark Side is indeed Evil and out to enslave the cosmos... the jedi are right in that belief in a very literal way.

 

It's hypocritical because saying "Only the Sith deal in absolutes", is an absolute. Knock the "only" from that sentence and it is no longer hypocritical nor an absolute.

 

You're overthinking this one.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Temeluchus

[Ghisallo]

It's hypocritical because saying "Only the Sith deal in absolutes", is an absolute. Knock the "only" from that sentence and it is no longer hypocritical nor an absolute.

 

You're overthinking this one.

 

Know I am thinking like some one who took too many Philosophy classes in college lol. Sith and Jedi are, when you boil it down to the bones opposed Philosophical concepts in the mind of Lucas. When you look at the Jedi you have wildly divergent views. Qui-Gon Jin certainly did not think as Yoda did, Mace was his own man as well, The Sith are different, likely due to the rule of two at this pointbut still different. There is no arguing or debate between Master and Apprentice unless the Apprentice believes he is strong enough to kill the Master and become the new one.

 

Lucas wrote CRAP dialogue but he was trying to get across a point throughout all 6 movies. The Jedi serve the Republic, Democracy, just as Obi-Wan says in the same scene. They reflect that in the diversity of species nd thought that we seen in the Jedi order. The Sith...and the Empire serve themselves...and it is reflected in the "human" superiority ideal set in motion by Palpatine, the Jedi purge, the abolishing if the Senate in Episode IV etc.

 

While one could argue it is a meta statement saying it is not hypocritical is accurate. You need to look at the black and white world Lucas was trying to depict when he created the ideals of the Sith and the Jedi respectively.

[Sindorin]

First off, that line... the issue is that "Contemplation" is... well, its somewhat related to "Knowledge" and its an antonym to "Ignorance". To not contemplate (aka, THINK) about something is to remain ignorant of its consequences. This order would, in effect, be expressedly opposed to actually considering the consequences of their actions, to being nothing more than soldiers for the Republic.

 

No, just no. First of all, Knowledge is either wisdom, or facts. Contemplation is the act of acquiring that knowledge, or the act of contemplating, or thinking about one's actions. When the code speaks of "There is no ignorance; there is knowledge", they admit that the mysteries of life and the force are solved not through blind interpretation, or ignorance, but through knowledge of life experiences and the force itself.

 

Contemplation is the act of reflection, or thinking. When someone says "There is no contemplation; only duty", it refers to decision making above any and all choices in the process. Rather than think if A is going to be good for the Order, even if it is necessary, they do it because they know it will be good, consequences be damned.

 

It's just another "ends justify the means" group.

[Ghisallo]

No, just no. First of all, Knowledge is either wisdom, or facts. Contemplation is the act of acquiring that knowledge, or the act of contemplating, or thinking about one's actions. When the code speaks of "There is no ignorance; there is knowledge", they admit that the mysteries of life and the force are solved not through blind interpretation, or ignorance, but through knowledge of life experiences and the force itself.

 

Contemplation is the act of reflection, or thinking. When someone says "There is no contemplation; only duty", it refers to decision making above any and all choices in the process. Rather than think if A is going to be good for the Order, even if it is necessary, they do it because they know it will be good, consequences be damned.

 

It's just another "ends justify the means" group.

 

I wouldn't even go that far. If you look at the concept of the "Living Force" it is about being in the moment... following ones instincts vs contemplating all the possible repercussions of your actions. That kind of thinking can create "vapor lock" in the minds of someone like Qui-Gon Jin (who was VERY much a Living force thinker.)

[Glzmo]

They should just call themselves "New Revanchists" and be done with it.

[Ghisallo]

They should just call themselves "New Revanchists" and be done with it.

 

They aren't though. The Revanchists were always acting without direct Jedi Order Sanction. Eventually the Jedi Council said "we won't forbid you but we will not involve the Order itself... it's your call."

 

In this case the Jedi Order is ALL in on the War, because it is against the Sith. Additionally

there is every indication that the Jedi Council knows about this, they just kept it from Saresh, the same as the SiS did. There is a big difference between breaking the rules, then being told "we won't punish you for breaking the rules but we are NOT happy" and then having permission to do stuff and coming up with your own little motto to go with it. Jedi are supposed to be obedient to the Council. Revan and the early Revanchists were NOT. The 6th Line is.

 

 

Why everything has to go back to Revan is freakin beyond me.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

An interesting insight into this organization which I think shows they are damn straight up...almost ideal Jedi...

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/sixth-line-part-one

 

the important bit...

 

 

 

“If they thought he was a Jedi, they’d be more cautious. Full restraints,” Surro whispered. She pushed a stray dreadlock from her forehead. Even in the dead of night, the heat was oppressive.

 

“He didn’t resist.” Garault’s brows knitted together. “Didn’t want to blow his cover.”

 

Surro recognized the Imperial officer “escorting” Danak from previous recon missions. Captain Bowenn was a nasty piece of work. He enjoyed inflicting pain more than any Sith she had encountered. A small crowd of soldiers gathered, cheering as Bowenn kicked Danak in the teeth.

 

“They’re going to execute him,” Onok stated.

 

Surro felt the tense silence hard against her throat. She licked her chapped lips and tasted the saltiness of sweat. It was her call. There is no contemplation, there is only duty.

 

“If we charge in and wipe out the camp, Darth Lachris will know and we tip the Republic’s hand.” Her voice held no emotion, but she found the words difficult to say.

 

“So we leave him?” Garault asked, struggling to keep his voice down.

 

“He knew the risk.” She met his eyes.

 

“There is only duty…” Garault’s breath was strained. “What about to our squad?”

 

“Our duty is to the Order. Do not confuse that with your attachment to Danak.” It wasn’t meant to be a threat, but a reminder from an old friend. “The mission comes first. If there was another way...”

 

then after their comrade is indeed executed..

 

“There is no death, there is only the Force,” Surro whispered.

 

This brief look into their mind set says, to me at least, that these Jedi are indeed TRUE Jedi. It almost seems like "there is no contemplation, their is only duty" is more of a little touch of vanity. They want to say to themselves "where other Jedi will not act, we will because it is out duty to complete the mission and thus defend the Republic."

Edited April 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Kyrrant]

This brief look into their mind set says, to me at least, that these Jedi are indeed TRUE Jedi. It almost seems like "there is no contemplation, their is only duty" is more of a little touch of vanity. They want to say to themselves "where other Jedi will not act, we will because it is out duty to complete the mission and thus defend the Republic."

 

.....to be honest?

 

That bugs me even more.

 

I know, its petty, but it doesn't seem like anything that my own Jedi (...before she left the order on her own volition due to pelvic reasons) wouldn't do when it comes to combat.

 

I don't mind militaristic Jedi. I actually like the notion of exploring how a Jedi reacts to the onslaught and horrors of war. The issue is that it feels like the Sixth Order...

 

...well, that it makes the militaristic Jedi seem less like Jedi. It narrows the definition of what a Jedi can be by implying that the sort that are militaristic would instead join this side Order.

 

The story isn't a bad start. And it is only the start. But I want a more clear divide here. Something that you couldn't see a somewhat militaristic Jedi doing, and yet something that's still not Sith-like...

 

...might be a bit of a tricky proposition, though.

[Ghisallo]

.....to be honest?

 

That bugs me even more.

 

I know, its petty, but it doesn't seem like anything that my own Jedi (...before she left the order on her own volition due to pelvic reasons) wouldn't do when it comes to combat.

 

I don't mind militaristic Jedi. I actually like the notion of exploring how a Jedi reacts to the onslaught and horrors of war. The issue is that it feels like the Sixth Order...

 

...well, that it makes the militaristic Jedi seem less like Jedi. It narrows the definition of what a Jedi can be by implying that the sort that are militaristic would instead join this side Order.

 

The story isn't a bad start. And it is only the start. But I want a more clear divide here. Something that you couldn't see a somewhat militaristic Jedi doing, and yet something that's still not Sith-like...

 

...might be a bit of a tricky proposition, though.

 

I think you are over thinking things. What makes the Jedi different is how they have far more opinions than the Sith. Would there ever be a Sith diplomat? No. A Sith dedicated to healing others? No.

 

I honestly think the 6th line is simply an attempt to say...all Jedi do not sit their wringing their hands over violence but rather say "they brought the war to us, now we have to fight it. There will be time to contemplate and reflect on the mistakes that made this war possible in the first place later. Right now we have to buckle down and fight it. Accomplish the mission and then we will have the time contemplate the mistakes we made.

 

Thing is, unless you have an entire book or comic story arch to get this point across, such as an MMO like we have here, you get this point across the way they have here.

[Kyrrant]

I think you are over thinking things. What makes the Jedi different is how they have far more opinions than the Sith. Would there ever be a Sith diplomat? No. A Sith dedicated to healing others? No.

 

I, uh, used to play a Sith Diplomat.

 

...lots of assassination, gunboat diplomacy, strongarming weak worlds into subservient treaties. Cheaper than sending armies .

 

I honestly think the 6th line is simply an attempt to say...all Jedi do not sit their wringing their hands over violence but rather say "they brought the war to us, now we have to fight it. There will be time to contemplate and reflect on the mistakes that made this war possible in the first place later. Right now we have to buckle down and fight it. Accomplish the mission and then we will have the time contemplate the mistakes we made.

 

Thing is, unless you have an entire book or comic story arch to get this point across, such as an MMO like we have here, you get this point across the way they have here.

 

Maybe. They certainly have time, and it was only part 1. I just don't think they've done the deed yet... but I'm willing to give them time.

[Ghisallo]

I, uh, used to play a Sith Diplomat.

 

...lots of assassination, gunboat diplomacy, strongarming weak worlds into subservient treaties. Cheaper than sending armies .

 

I meant an ACTUAL diplomat... the person who negotiates in good faith that kinda thing...

 

"Mr Prime Minister that is an interesting point of view <force lightning>... oh dear the Prime Minister seems to have been over come by the moment. Mr. Secretary perhaps we could have more effect dialogue?"

 

[Kyrrant]

I meant an ACTUAL diplomat... the person who negotiates in good faith that kinda thing...

 

"Mr Prime Minister that is an interesting point of view <force lightning>... oh dear the Prime Minister seems to have been over come by the moment. Mr. Secretary perhaps we could have more effect dialogue?"

 

 

Hey! There was negotiating in good faith!

 

At times.

 

You know, to lure them into a false sense of security...