The Prophesy - I don't get it

[Selenial]

No longer certain that one ever does win a war I am.

For in fighting the battles, the bloodshed already lost we have.

Yet, open to us, a path remains that unknown to the Sith is.

Through this path, victory we may yet find.

Not victory in the Clone Wars but victory for all time.

 

Yoda poetry is best poetry.

[Selenial]

No wonder I was confused when the Uncle Rodian guy mysteriously reappeared alive and well after I just seen him killed off the season before.

 

Uncle Ona

[Beniboybling]

I like this idea here. Makes a little more sense than just denying that a dark side can or should exist at all.

 

I think I'm on season three of the series at the moment. I'm watching them in order...although I recently discovered that the storylines aren't in chronological order and that's actually how they aired. No wonder I was confused when the Uncle Rodian guy mysteriously reappeared alive and well after I just seen him killed off the season before.

Indeed, and yeah they are a little sporadic. You may already know but an offical order was released:

 

http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-clone-wars-chronological-episodeorder

 

Though to be fair its around the Season 3 mark that it becomes more ordered.

 

Anyway its an awesome show, so have fun.

Yoda poetry is best poetry.

It's the only proper way to quote him really.

[t-darko]

So would that equate to balance? The dark side within everyone is kept in check, but its still there.

 

On the other hand if we define balance as Jedi and Sith in equal strengths, its more problematic. Because if Jedi have a dark side, to create equal balance, Sith would have to have a light side, no? An equivalent entity. I find it hard to believe Darth Sidious, or many Sith Lords, had a light side, the dark side once embraced is often described as an all consuming power. .

 

Think you're on to something here: Reminds me of the JK storyarc in-game -

 

 

Lord Praven; "My passion is integrity and honor" He is unmistakably Sith, a pure blood no less. Admittedly not canon but it does shed some light on to how your reasoning could be envisioned.

 

 

Personally I have a hard time with the Mortis arc. I tend to lean on an interpretation that the Father represent the Force of every kind that you describe, that his children, the Son and the Daughter, represent the "Sith" and the "Jedi" as offsprings/products of the Force. As such they need to coexist.

 

Further more - you quote the "Path of the Jedi" book, here we need to remember that it is intentionally written as a 'living document' influenced by the time its written and and the current Jedi writing it, there by trying to create some kind of Authenticity to it all. A big part of the Star Wars Saga has become about the Force and how it should be interpreted, therefore searching for the 'truth' is a big part of the story, even bigger now with Ep 7 I suspect.

 

Now, it's hard now a days to discuss these questions; the EU got two Prophecies, that of the chosen one and that of the 'Sith'aari'. But the current canon only got the Prophecy of the chosen one but as the PT and TCW unravels it seems these two merge into one - indeed; " A Prophecy that misread might have been".

 

So what I'm arguing is that The Force by the "Force Awakens" will become one of the 'main characters' much as it has become in the EU in general and in SWTOR especially. The interpretation of the Force, the Whys, the Hows will be a big part of the new movies I suspect. This is an Area where we hooked on the EU have been discussing for a long time.

 

So what are my conclusion? Well - I would argue that the Prophecy at this point is meant to 'not make sense', from a story perspective, Qui-Gonn by his own wishes, knowing that the order was in disarray after centuries of not fighting its natural enemy, interpreted the discovery of Anakin, the boys high count of midichlorians, as being the chosen one. Yoda hesitates as he knows more, by shere age and experience, that the Force isn't that 'simple' to interpreted.

Our heroes Journey from now on, and has always been really, is to learn of the Force, its purpose and how to best master it to serve the good of the Galaxy.

Edited April 20, 2015 by t-darko

[JGHopkins]

I haven't had a chance to catch up on all the posts, but I figured I'd throw in my 22 cents and what I think of the Mortis arc and how it ties into GL original statement about the force.

 

The force consists of the light and dark sides, every person has those sides within them.

 

Although the Darkside is part of the force, the Darkside users, Fallen Jedi and Sith alike are a cancer. essentially the light needs the dark to exist and vice versa, but one must balance the selfless (light) and selfish (dark) sides.

 

The Sith have no compassion or balance, there is no selflessness to temper the selfishness.

Jedi or lightside users in general attempt temper both sides, they are able to balance the selfish personality that exists within everyone with the selflessness required for beings to live in peace with one another.

 

The Sith in general don't want to live in peace with the Jedi or other lightside users. Jedi Don't seek to fight, but the Sith feel the need to fight to prove their power.

 

Sith will hunt down Jedi and anyone they feel is a threat to their power, on the other hand Jedi didn't bother other Darkside groups like the witches of Dathomir. The clone war only started because of the Sith.

 

I do agree the Jedi were falling into a state of disarray and complacency , They weren't prepared and their vision was clouded to the point they didn't see a Sith Lord literally in front of their face and misread the prophecy.

 

 

which as far as I can discern meant that balance would be return not by destroying all darkside users, since obviously groups that utilize it still exist, but by destroying the most antagonistic users of the force and Bringing the Jedi out of their state of complacency.

 

I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of it.

[Ghisallo]

I haven't had a chance to catch up on all the posts, but I figured I'd throw in my 22 cents and what I think of the Mortis arc and how it ties into GL original statement about the force.

 

The force consists of the light and dark sides, every person has those sides within them.

 

Although the Darkside is part of the force, the Darkside users, Fallen Jedi and Sith alike are a cancer. essentially the light needs the dark to exist and vice versa, but one must balance the selfless (light) and selfish (dark) sides.

 

The Sith have no compassion or balance, there is no selflessness to temper the selfishness.

Jedi or lightside users in general attempt temper both sides, they are able to balance the selfish personality that exists within everyone with the selflessness required for beings to live in peace with one another.

 

The Sith in general don't want to live in peace with the Jedi or other lightside users. Jedi Don't seek to fight, but the Sith feel the need to fight to prove their power.

 

Sith will hunt down Jedi and anyone they feel is a threat to their power, on the other hand Jedi didn't bother other Darkside groups like the witches of Dathomir. The clone war only started because of the Sith.

 

I do agree the Jedi were falling into a state of disarray and complacency , They weren't prepared and their vision was clouded to the point they didn't see a Sith Lord literally in front of their face and misread the prophecy.

 

 

which as far as I can discern meant that balance would be return not by destroying all darkside users, since obviously groups that utilize it still exist, but by destroying the most antagonistic users of the force and Bringing the Jedi out of their state of complacency.

 

I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of it.

 

The Jedi do not temper. Ther are "Gray" force used who do but you have to remember "Gray" ultimately only means "Not dark side force user but not Jedi either" in the EU. Now this can me those like the Voss who do try to balance light and dark or the Imperial Knight who are gray because their first loyalty is to the Emperor and not the Force...BUT they are still liught side because the one exception to this rule is if the emperor goes to the darkside their duty is to bring him back to the light or depose him.

 

The reason the Jedi do not temper is because they have fought the dark side since their creation. It all started with the Je'daii_Order and the Force Wars and neither side has really looked back since.

 

That is why the Prophecy of the Chosen One was misread. The Jedi order believed that the "natural" order of Balance was the light side and that the dark is a corruption that must be excised. If they still adhered to the teachings of the Je'daii, they not only would have understood the prophecy BUT the Chosen One more than likely would not have been needed.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Ghisallo

[JGHopkins]

I did just find this interesting interpretation that I quite like

 

"I think a lot of people misunderstand the imbalance as caused by the mere existence of Sith. Sith existing doesn't cause an imbalance towards the dark side just as Jedi existing doesn't cause an imbalance towards the light. I think even the Jedi misunderstand it and Yoda says as much. They also seem to think that the Sith as a whole must be destroyed for balance to be restored but as often they do in the PT they miss the bigger picture. It's Palpatine and his master that caused the imbalanced. Through unnatural rituals they literally tipped the scales in the dark sides favor. So by the time the PT starts the dark side has become so overwhelming that the Jedi are beginning to feel their powers diminishing. Anakin lifts this shroud of darkness by killing Palpatine and now the Sith and Jedi are on an equal footing. Light and dark are balanced."

 

The only question would be is how, if at all, does the Mortis arc relate to this.

Edited April 21, 2015 by JGHopkins
new information

[Ghisallo]

I did just find this interesting interpretation that I quite like

 

"I think a lot of people misunderstand the imbalance as caused by the mere existence of Sith. Sith existing doesn't cause an imbalance towards the dark side just as Jedi existing doesn't cause an imbalance towards the light. I think even the Jedi misunderstand it and Yoda says as much. They also seem to think that the Sith as a whole must be destroyed for balance to be restored but as often they do in the PT they miss the bigger picture. It's Palpatine and his master that caused the imbalanced. Through unnatural rituals they literally tipped the scales in the dark sides favor. So by the time the PT starts the dark side has become so overwhelming that the Jedi are beginning to feel their powers diminishing. Anakin lifts this shroud of darkness by killing Palpatine and now the Sith and Jedi are on an equal footing. Light and dark are balanced."

 

The only question would be is how, if at all, does the Mortis arc relate to this.

 

That's not it... BOTH SIDES can create the imbalance if either ever wins....that's the thing. It wasn't even that through the ritual the Sith tipped things to far to the Dark Side. Half the point of the rule of 2 was so that the Sith could hide. Before that Ritual the Sith were still there, the balance between light and dark maintained because the Sith are the most powerful Darkside users in the Galaxy.

 

What that ritual did was make everyone say "OH CRAP they are back." This created the ground work for "the final battle" but that final battle was one where NEITHER side could be allowed to win The problem was that in order for the balance to be maintained neither side could be permitted to win said battle in the end.

 

It's all made clear in TCW Season 3 Epsidoes 15 through 17.

[JGHopkins]

That's not it... BOTH SIDES can create the imbalance if either ever wins....that's the thing. It wasn't even that through the ritual the Sith tipped things to far to the Dark Side. Half the point of the rule of 2 was so that the Sith could hide. Before that Ritual the Sith were still there, the balance between light and dark maintained because the Sith are the most powerful Darkside users in the Galaxy.

 

What that ritual did was make everyone say "OH CRAP they are back." This created the ground work for "the final battle" but that final battle was one where NEITHER side could be allowed to win The problem was that in order for the balance to be maintained neither side could be permitted to win said battle in the end.

 

It's all made clear in TCW Season 3 Epsidoes 15 through 17.

 

The problem with the mortis arc is that while it helps explain the ying/yang relationship of the darkside and lightside it still leaves things open for interpretation when it comes to the prophecy. at one point Father said that the only way for Anakin to fulfill the prophecy was to stay and keep control of son/daughter

.

but doesn't that mean that Anakin failed to fulfill the prohpecy if as father stated Anakin was to take his place as the only person who could control son and daughter? All 3 die. doesn't that mean the force was thrown out of balance...so how does anakin restore it? Sister never thinks her brother is evil, but she reacts specifically to a change in him, he had grown power hungry and restless. As if they use to live in peace but something in the dark side of the force specifically threw brother our of balance to the point that he attacks and kills sister.

 

What if the experiments of the 2 Sith are what threw brother out of balance and cause the problem to start with on Mortis?

sticking with what's strictly in the episodes

 

Or He could have brought balance to force when he killed the son, daughter was already dead and father commited suicide thus removing sons power and allowing Anakin the chance to kill the son. Thereby bringing balance to the force because both sides lost the one that personified them. Instead of only the light losing daughter and father not being thier to control the son.

 

Or the father said told anakin that nothing was set in stone. He would bring balance to the force, but to beware his heart...so maybe when anakin allowed his love of padme to let him falter and fall to the darkside his heart got the better of him and the prophecy became moot. or maybe his heart was the key all along. It was his love of padme that helped along his fall in the first place but the love of his son that brought him back to the light.

 

at one point father even tells son specifically "You have done what is forbidden. You have chosen the dark side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power." "Do not do this, son. Do not become what you should not. Be strong, I implore you, or else I will be forced to contain you." What if what he should not be is more powerful than Daughter, or to power hungry....doesn't this imply that the imbalance that Anakin was meant to restore lay within the darkside of the force and not the light. Since son was the one throwing things out of balance and he was the personification of the darkside of the force.

 

the problem with "neither side could win to maintain balance" is that a side did win, Luke called himself a Jedi, he followed the Jedi ways...a side did win. The Great Sith Lord the most powerful darkside user ever to have lived, failed. He lost, to his own pupil who redeemed himself for the love of his son, The Sith as far as Darth Banes line o2f were wiped out...Leaving only a Jedi, trained by Obi-wan and Yoda. and we can't assume going by new canon that we know how Luke will be, the old comic and book where his order was more lenient and "grey" as it were don't exist. as far as we know he hasn't even trained anyone and is still following the jedi code to the same degree the past Jedi were.

Edited April 22, 2015 by JGHopkins

[Ghisallo]

The problem with the mortis arc is that while it helps explain the ying/yang relationship of the darkside and lightside it still leaves things open for interpretation when it comes to the prophecy. at one point Father said that the only way for Anakin to fulfill the prophecy was to stay and keep control of son/daughter /snip

 

I think you miss a VERY key scene. in the last episode of that Arch (I think) the son takes Anakin and shows him the future when he will go to the dark side. When Anakin next meets Fater... Dad is PISSED that the Son messed with time. Anakin is all upset saying something like "he showed me the future, I do not want to go to the dark side". Father then says something to the effect of "for you to preserve the balance you must forget what you have seen" and erases the memory.

 

Why? Because to preserve the balance Anakin MUST go to the darkside...he must complete the Great Purge just as much as he must then later kill Sidious and be redeemed because neither side must be allowed to win.

 

(BTW memory is not THAT good. I just rewatched those episodes for this debate )

 

actually here ya go...

 

The memory wipe

 

The fact that Son and Daughter are dead in the end means that after doing what he must in the "real world" there is no need for Anakin to return to keep the kids in check. The balance is still maintained...first by Anakin killing the Son (as the Son killed the Daughter). Next off to balance the Jedi and the Sith.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

Why? Because to preserve the balance Anakin MUST go to the darkside...he must complete the Great Purge just as much as he must then later kill Sidious and be redeemed because neither side must be allowed to win.

Yeah I do not believe that is the implication.

 

First off the Father says "your destiny can change just as quickly as the love in one's heart can fade. Nothing is set in stone." So this absolute notion that Anakin must go to the dark side is clearly not a notion the Father believes.

 

Secondly, the Father believed that Anakin would bring balance to the Force by taking his place, not by leaving the planet - which he persuaded him not to do - and joining the dark side, nor did he foresee that balance would be brought to his world via the death of the Son and the Daughter, just as the Jedi failed to predict their own downfall.

 

I don't believe there are any musts or certainties when it comes to the future, we have from the very beginning been taught that the future is always in motion. The Chosen One was destined to bring balance to the Force, but the manner in which he achieved that was never static, only that it would be achieved in some way and some form.

 

One thing I found interesting is how the Mortis arc mimics almost exactly the fulfillment of the prophecy.

 

Indeed take the Daughter to represent the Jedi Order, and the Son to represent the Sith i.e. Darth Sidious. And Anakin of course is himself, the Chosen One. The Father is the Force.

 

 

1. The Son grows in power and challenges the Father for supremacy, causing a shift in the cosmic balance of the planet, just as Sidious grows in power and challenges the Force, and disrupts the balance of the galaxy.
    
    
   
2. In response the Father brings Anakin, the Chosen One, to Mortis, to bring the Son to heel, just as in response the Force conceives Anakin to fight back against the actions of Darth Sidious.
    
    
   
3. Anakin however initially appears to fail in his purpose, the Son killing the Daughter, causing the planet to be engulfed in darkness. Likewise Anakin fails to stop Darth Sidious executing Order 66 and destroying the Jedi.
    
    
   
4. The Son proceeds to corrupt Anakin to the dark side, using him as a weapon for his own ends and continued power. Just as Darth Sidious corrupts Anakin into Vader, and uses him to wipe out the remaining Jedi.
    
    
   
5. The Father intervenes, redeeming him the light and working together to defeat the Son, restoring balance and fulfilling the prophecy. Just as Vader is redeemed by an agent of the Force i.e. Luke, and destroys Sidious.
   

 

If we look at it this way, it brings into question the notion that the Jedi had to be destroyed in order for cosmic balance to be restored. After all was the death of the Daughter necessary? I would say it was not. The Jedi may have become complacent and self-assured, by they remained proponents of the light, which is all that matters.

 

What they did do however is fail to stop the Sith from growing too powerful. Powerful enough to challenge the Force, I believe the death of the Jedi Order represents a failure on the Force's part, just as the death of the Daughter came about after a failure of the Father to keep him under control. But the Jedi are just as responsible for their rise.

[Ghisallo]

You have to look at it in total context I think Beni. The Son showed Anakin the future his life would take if nothing interfered with it. The thing is the minute you KNOW your future, this knowledge influences your actions and so can change the future. That is what the Father is referring to when he says that things can change. Then Anakin says "but I wll cause so much pain" at which point the father says "if there is to be balance, what you have seen must be forgotten." If it was NOT erased Anakin would have obviously taken steps to NOT go to the Dark side. He would not have become Sidious' Apprentice, the Jedi Purge would not have happened and in not being the apprentice he would not have been in a position to kill sidious.

 

Now it is also going Meta, I will admit. Lucas originally said in an interview that the way to bring balance for the Chosen One was to destroy all evil in the Galaxy. Under this idea you could say "okay, having to kill the jedi was simply the means to the end that would eventually allow him to accomplish this goal." This is when he said compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties in an interview with Bill Moyers.

 

Lucas changed that though. In the commentaries he completely changes the purpose of the Chosen One. Now instead of the purpose being to destroy evil in the galaxy it is specifically to keep both the light and dark in check. In the commentaries he refereed to the light as the "selfless" and the dark as the "selfish"...pretty much THE adjectives for Jedi and Sith respectively. So if the Sith is THE evil that originally would have brought balance under the dark = cancer paradigm... under the new paradigm if ONLY the Sith is killed the Force is out of balance just in the opposite direction.

 

When you take the dialogue in the episode ALONG with Lucas' comments in the Commentaries, it's all made very clear. Without those commentaries and the complete change from his previous stance I would be /shrug...BUT put them together and it is what it is imo, all the "possible" theories go out the window thanks to the commentary's clarification. Not saying good or bad mind you, just saying "it is what it is."

Edited April 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

He had already fallen to the dark side Ghisallo, he was merely serving a different master.

 

But again, if the Father believed these events had to come to past, why did he summon him to Mortis in the first place?

 

And I'm not convinced that is the only interpretation, but I have given my own elsewhere.

[Ghisallo]

He had already fallen to the dark side Ghisallo, he was merely serving a different master.

 

But again, if the Father believed these events had to come to past, why did he summon him to Mortis in the first place?

 

And I'm not convinced that is the only interpretation, but I have given my own elsewhere.

 

Because the Father didn't know the future. Remember his anger at the Son doing something forbidden? He knew the prophecy, knew Anakin was the Chosen One. He did not know Son would kill Daughter, that the Son would show Anakin a future of causing pain to all he loved to snag him. Until the Son violated the rules about Time, else he would not have had to ask Anakin "what did he show you?" The Father did not know that he would throw himself on the Son's blade and that Anakin would kill the son.

 

Basically Fathers thought process..."Ah the Chosen One, let me meet him and hope that he will take my place with the Son and Daughter. Oh crap Son has gone psycho...*** did he just do?!?!?! showing someone their future...that is not Prophecy that is a violation of the Force?!?!? Anakin what did he show you? Crap you need to forget your future or you will change it, escaping your destiny and dooming the cosmos. The daughter is dead. The force is out of balance. I will sacrifice myself so the Chosen one can preserve the balance by slaying the Son..then I can rest."

 

And again... There would be plenty of theories... If not for Lucas' commentary. With that lenses the above is what we will see.

[Beniboybling]

Because the Father didn't know the future. Remember his anger at the Son doing something forbidden? He knew the prophecy, knew Anakin was the Chosen One. He did not know Son would kill Daughter, that the Son would show Anakin a future of causing pain to all he loved to snag him. Until the Son violated the rules about Time, else he would not have had to ask Anakin "what did he show you?" The Father did not know that he would throw himself on the Son's blade and that Anakin would kill the son.

 

Basically Fathers thought process..."Ah the Chosen One, let me meet him and hope that he will take my place with the Son and Daughter. Oh crap Son has gone psycho...*** did he just do?!?!?! showing someone their future...that is not Prophecy that is a violation of the Force?!?!? Anakin what did he show you? Crap you need to forget your future or you will change it, escaping your destiny and dooming the cosmos. The daughter is dead. The force is out of balance. I will sacrifice myself so the Chosen one can preserve the balance by slaying the Son..then I can rest."

Exactly, but the point is that the Father neither knew nor believed that Anakin must go to the dark side, and his intentions behind erasing Anakin's mind were not to prevent some preordained destiny from being subverted.

And again... There would be plenty of theories... If not for Lucas' commentary. With that lenses the above is what we will see.

That's your opinion, Manneus. But Lucas' commentaries are not news to anybody.

[Ghisallo]

If that wasn't THE future the Son showed I doubt Dad would have been that enraged.

 

That said.. I wish this debate started last night. Work the over night shift this eve... 8p to 10a tomorrow thanks to some OT so bed time for bonzo.

 

Have fun storming the Space Dock till then

[fidothegran]

Anakin did not fulfill the prophecy, the Revenant trilogy player character does.

[Beniboybling]

Anakin did not fulfill the prophecy, the Revenant trilogy player character does.

[DarknessInLight]

Obi Wan: With all due respect, is he not the chosen one? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

 

Mace Windu: So the prophecy says......

 

Yoda: A prophecy, that misread, could have been....

 

It is in this singular scene in Revenge of the Sith that we are given the first hint that the Jedi were having doubts as to the nature of the Force and what balance, and therefore, the prophecy, really meant.

 

Indeed, the very nature of balance in the Force stretches all the way back to the founding of the Jedi Order. A long time ago, even before the formation of the Republic, a group of Force Sensitives came together and formed the Je'daii Order. This order was made up of both Light Side and Dark Side practitioners who believed that Unity of the Dual sides of the Force was key to maintaining balance in the Force. Practitioners that fell too far to one side or the other were sent to the Tythonian moons of Ashla and Bogan until they returned to balance themselves.

 

Then the Force Wars occurred, and the Force started to fall out of balance and intolerance of the opposing beliefs began. It is during this time that the prophecy is first heard of. The Dark Siders were banished from Tython, and soon after, the Je'daii order left Tython, settled on Ossus, and became the Jedi Order. The prophecy, as so many things that are passed down through generations, became lost, distorted or both.

 

Fast forward to the Battle of Ruusan where the last vestiges of the Sith Empire created 4,000 years prior were exterminated by one of their own. Darth Bane killed the remainder of the old Sith order and vanished into the darkness. The Jedi, however, flourished over the coming millennium. Tens of thousands of Jedi, staunch believers in the Light side of the Force and defenders of the Republic, had helped send the Force out of balance.

 

What if the prophecy of the Chosen One was meant to restore balance by bringing the Sith back so that the Dark and Light were restored to equal measure? What if the Chosen One was meant to become a Sith Lord? What if Order 66, and subsequently the rise of the Galactic Empire, was all part of the Prophecy? What if Anakin Skywalker, in fulfilling his role as the Chosen One, was meant to become Darth Vader and, in doing so, restored balance to the Force?

Edited April 22, 2015 by DarknessInLight

[JGHopkins]

Obi Wan: With all due respect, is he not the chosen one? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

 

Mace Windu: So the prophecy says......

 

Yoda: A prophecy, that misread, could have been....

 

It is in this singular scene in Revenge of the Sith that we are given the first hint that the Jedi were having doubts as to the nature of the Force and what balance, and therefore, the prophecy, really meant.

 

Indeed, the very nature of balance in the Force stretches all the way back to the founding of the Jedi Order. A long time ago, even before the formation of the Republic, a group of Force Sensitives came together and formed the Je'daii Order. This order was made up of both Light Side and Dark Side practitioners who believed that Unity of the Dual sides of the Force was key to maintaining balance in the Force. Practitioners that fell too far to one side or the other were sent to the Tythonian moons of Ashla and Bogan until they returned to balance themselves.

 

Then the Force Wars occurred, and the Force started to fall out of balance and intolerance of the opposing beliefs began. It is during this time that the prophecy is first heard of. The Dark Siders were banished from Tython, and soon after, the Je'daii order left Tython, settled on Ossus, and became the Jedi Order. The prophecy, as so many things that are passed down through generations, became lost, distorted or both.

 

Fast forward to the Battle of Ruusan where the last vestiges of the Sith Empire created 4,000 years prior were exterminated by one of their own. Darth Bane killed the remainder of the old Sith order and vanished into the darkness. The Jedi, however, flourished over the coming millennium. Tens of thousands of Jedi, staunch believers in the Light side of the Force and defenders of the Republic, had helped send the Force out of balance.

 

What if the prophecy of the Chosen One was meant to restore balance by bringing the Sith back so that the Dark and Light were restored to equal measure? What if the Chosen One was meant to become a Sith Lord? What if Order 66, and subsequently the rise of the Galactic Empire, was all part of the Prophecy? What if Anakin Skywalker, in fulfilling his role as the Chosen One, was meant to become Darth Vader and, in doing so, restored balance to the Force?

 

Most of what you used though, the Russan reformation, the Je'daii etc are all on-canon know. Legends not main universe. We are debating the meaning of the prophecy in the main universe not the legends EU

[Ghisallo]

Most of what you used though, the Russan reformation, the Je'daii etc are all on-canon know. Legends not main universe. We are debating the meaning of the prophecy in the main universe not the legends EU

 

Well Darth Bane and his creation of the rule of 2 is Canon. That said the main point is both the Mortis Story Arch and Lucas in the commentaries state that the purpose of the chosen one is to keep both the Light and Balance in check. We can argue if the Jedi needed to be wiped out I suppose BUT it is clear that the Jedi did interpret the prophesy wrong. If they had not then they would not have felt that the balance is maintained simply by destroying evil. It really seems when you look at how the Jedi reacted to Anakin that they said the following.

 

"He is full of so much anger and fear but he is the Chosen One. I guess since the Chose One is supposed to destroy the Sith and return the balance to its 'natural state', namely the Light, he will not succumb to these emotions."

 

If they would have trusted their instincts and not their misreading of the Prophecy they would never have trained him me thinks BUT the way Prophecy works (if it is a true Prophecy) they had to make this mistake. Otherwise he does not meet Padme...does not have the children and does not get corrupted by Sidious and so is not in a position in Episode VI to throw Sidious down the pit to his death.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Ghisallo

[gothshark]

First we need the full text of the Prophecy. Something never given in the movies or TV shows, which since Disney took over is the only source of canon.

 

However we have a few interpretive bits.

 

"You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this…boy?"

―Mace Windu

 

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Obi Wan: With all due respect, is he not the chosen one? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

 

Mace Windu: So the prophecy says......

 

Yoda: A prophecy, that misread, could have been....

 

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Now as people have stated Lucas was whishy washy on his meanings. But if taken at a literal perspective, the Jedi Order has a messiah prophecy of a person born of the force who will destroy the Sith Order, and bring balance to the force.

 

However, as noted, the Sith order was believed to already be destroyed, and the Jedi Order had huge numbers, so they should have been more cautious of that prophecy than they were.

[Ghisallo]

See saying "misread" is important. All we know is that the prophecy is for a chosen one to bring balance.

 

While Lucas changed from saying it simply meant to destroy evil to keeping both light and dark in check, we do know how the Jedi felt about the force. They believed that the "natural" state of the force was "the light" and that the dark side was in essence a cancer that damaged the force. This erroneous belief creates the dynamic where when they read a prophecy about bringing balance it must mean destroying the Sith. Thus Yoda's concern that the prophecy may have been misread.

 

At least that is how I see all of those exchanges now in hind sight.

 

As an example...the prophecy did not said "the chosen one will bring balance by destroying bane's scion" (or whatever). Prophecies are never that explicit. It is probably something like "the force will be as a sea in a great tempset. The chosen one shall walk into the heart of the maelstrom and while enshrouded in its darkness shal strike out against the fury that surrounds him and the force will again be at peace." Prophecies are usually vague like that.

 

Now if you have the belief that your side is the " balanced side" then this clearly means to you that the Chosen one walks to where the heart of the dark side is and simply destroys it. If however you see that both the light and darkness must be in balance you may see he goes to the darkside and strikes out at everything around him, good and evil, and this brings about the balance as the board has been cleared.

[DarthDymond]

If there was ever a time to apply the "la mort de l'auteur" approach to analyzing fiction, it's when George Lucas is involved. I'm not one of those people who hate the guy, but honestly he has never been consistent about anything with the Star Wars universe, so treating his interpretation of things on any given day as gospel truth is a mistake.

 

That his comments about "balance is between light and dark" happened to come at a point in time after his comments about "the Light Side is balance" doesn't really count for anything. Three days later he very well could have gone back to his earlier view. And that's setting aside the fact that he didn't even write the Mortis Trilogy.

 

So taking the interpretations of "l'auteur" out of the picture, what we have is the substance of the work itself:

 

The Jedi believed that the Prophecy meant that 'The Chosen One' would 'Bring Balance to the Force' by destroying the Sith (agents of the Dark Side, which they believe is an 'imbalance' in the Force).

 

The Mortis Trilogy... is honestly a hot mess in terms of what it seems to want to say about the Light Side vs Dark Side in terms of Balance. The Father clearly believes that the Prophecy meant that the Chosen One would keep the Son and the Daughter in check / balance, but beyond that things get... inconsistent.

 

The imagery of the episodes certainly establishes that The Daughter = The Light Side of the Force, The Son = The Dark Side of the Force, and The Father (to be replaced by the Chosen One) keeps the Balance between them. And at times, the dialogue indicates that it's not just a theme of the episode, but actually how the Father sees things as well - that he believes 'Balance' is between the Light Side and the Dark Side:

 

Anakin: "You're a Sith Lord!"

The Father: "You have a very simple view of the universe. I am neither Sith nor Jedi. I am much more... and so are you."

 

The Father: "It is only here that I can control them. A family in balance, the light and the dark, day with night, destruction replaced by creation. [...] Too much Dark or Light would be the undoing of life as you understand it."

 

But other times, it seems to be saying that the Son 'falling to the Dark Side' (presented as a recent occurrence) is what throws things out of balance, rather than the Dark Side being part of the Balance:

 

The Father: "You have done what is forbidden. You have chosen the Dark Side, and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power. [...] Do not do this, Son. Do not become what you should not. Be strong, I implore you, or else I will be forced to contain you."

 

Obi-Wan: "Your brother is losing himself to the Dark Side. He's taken our friend."

The Daughter: "Then he must have his reasons."

Obi-Wan: "The same reason he had for attempting to murder your Father?"

The Daughter: "He would never do such a thing."

 

Anakin: "What will you do, now that he's given himself over the Dark Side?"

The Father: "It is my actions that have unleashed great danger upon the universe. I must kill him."

 

The Father: "I held hope that you could resist the Dark Side, but I see now there is no going back."

 

If the Ones do not see the Son as being the Dark Side (at least not until after everything goes to hell), then it makes it a bit harder to see them as believing that The Chosen One keeping balance between the Son and the Daughter is the same thing as keeping balance between the Dark Side and the Light Side.

 

The ending of Mortis is kind of ambiguous too, the Father's last words are that Anakin has "brought balance to this world" after Anakin kills the Son... but at that point the Daughter is dead and the Father is dying too. So it's not clear if 'bringing balance' was killing the Son because the Son was fallen to the Dark Side, as the Father then realized (which again jives with the Jedi interpretation that Dark Side = imbalance), or if it was killing the Son specifically to balance back the scales after the Daughter died, bringing 'Light' and 'Dark' back into balance.

 

That ambiguity is present at the end of RotJ as well, Anakin certainly brought Balance to the Force when he killed Palpatine and died redeemed. But was that because the Dark Side / Sith in themselves represented imbalance, so wiping them out brought balance as a matter of course. Or was it again a case where it was only because the Jedi had been practically wiped out first that then killing the Sith too brought things back into balance, i.e. bringing Light and Dark into balance with each other.

Edited April 24, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Ghisallo]

You miss what the father says in the last episode of the arch. The Daughter is already dead...dad knows he now has to set up the Son to die. This means balance will be maintained among those who would have "exploited" the power of the Ones. In this same episode the Son shows Anakin his future, Anakin decides to serve the Son to try and prevent his future we see in RotS. Then we have the following exchange...(paraphrase)

 

Father: "what did you see?"

Anakin: "a dark future that I can't let happen"

Father: "you future can be changed due to what you should have never known. You must forget what you have seen if the balance is to be maintained"

Anakin: "but I will cause so much pain..." <passes out>

 

The father would not violate the rules and use the force to clearly see the future. So he does what the Jedi do, he interprets the prophecy through his lense. The Jedi see balance as destroying evil as to them the natural state of the force is light... the Father sees balance as keeping the Son and Daughter in check. Both suffered from mypoia.

 

Because of this he initially assumes that the Chosen one keeping balance means taking over for him. When the Son kills the Daughter however he sees this is not the case. When the Son shows Anakin the future in a clear vision...this reveals what the destiny of the Chosen one is, not to keep the Son and Daughter in check but to do so in the "outside world" via the Jedi and Sith. It doesn't seem a mess at all for me. It just shows again how a prophecy can be misread and sometimes gets misread until we are almost right on top of it. In this case he misreads it until the Daughter is killed and he knows the Son has to die as well...then he sees Anakin true purpose.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Ghisallo