The Prophesy - I don't get it

[CloudCastle]

Can someone explain the big Annakin/Chosen One prophesy? He's supposed to bring "balance to the Force" and the Jedi all seem to act like this is a desirable thing. Yet, why doesn't anyone realize that "balance" means light = dark? Either the Sith would have to have their powers/numbers increased, or the Jedi would have theirs decreased. The Jedi spend their entire lives fighting the dark side. Why on this green earth would they want their powers/numbers to decrease?

 

So at the end of the Clone wars, the Jedi are obliterated. This should fulfill the prophesy, right? Yet, isn't it Palpatine who designs and implements order 66? Annakin doesn't have a hand in it at all I thought.

 

So, as you can see, I basically don't understand what the prophesy is, how Annakin ends up fulfilling it, and why no one sees this coming and tries to stop it.

[Selenial]

The Jedi are of the opinion that the "Light Side" as we see it, is the force. That the Dark Side is corruption manifest, a side to the force that should never exist. Balance as they see it is the total annihilation of the Dark Side users and redemption of the galaxy.

 

No one's ever agreed on what the prophecy actually means though. I believed what you say for a long time, before the EU completely ruined it. Because Vader brought about 2 Sith, 2 Jedi. Roughly equal in power if you'd place them next to each other, it seemed Balanced. Then suddenly the Expanded Universe decided to bring in Jedi Galore, and Dark side adepts, which either somehow also balance or completely ***** on the theory.

 

I guess it's up to us to decide.

[Fyurii]

before the EU completely ruined it. Because Vader brought about 2 Sith, 2 Jedi. Roughly equal in power if you'd place them next to each other, it seemed Balanced. Then suddenly the Expanded Universe decided to bring in Jedi Galore, and Dark side adepts, which either somehow also balance or completely ***** on the theory.

 

In all fairness, there was a fair amount of Jedi/ex-Jedi/Dark Jedi/Dark Side adepts in the EU before Episode 1 was made.

I'm not talking pre GCW/Old Republic timeframe either.

 

For a lot of what Lucas wrote for plot and backstory for many things in the movies, the EU was left to explain or clarify the areas where he left people asking questions - i.e. "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic" with the later contradiction of "this Republic that has stood for a thousand years".

A generation as a specific measurement of time is 25 years, which is where the 25,000 year old Republic and Jedi Order came from.

Even when referring to generations in the case of predecessors and successors, it's still much more than a thousand years.

 

IIRC, the last "official" (i.e. the last time Lucas decided on what it meant) explanation was that the Sith had been steadily pushing the Force itself out of balance, and the Force responded with Jesus/Anakin Skywalker to restore the Force into balance.

Lucas had also said the Dark Side was like a cancer in nature, and had to be destroyed. He changed his mind on lots of things about Star Wars over the decades.

[tunewalker]

In all fairness, there was a fair amount of Jedi/ex-Jedi/Dark Jedi/Dark Side adepts in the EU before Episode 1 was made.

I'm not talking pre GCW/Old Republic timeframe either.

 

For a lot of what Lucas wrote for plot and backstory for many things in the movies, the EU was left to explain or clarify the areas where he left people asking questions - i.e. "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic" with the later contradiction of "this Republic that has stood for a thousand years".

A generation as a specific measurement of time is 25 years, which is where the 25,000 year old Republic and Jedi Order came from.

Even when referring to generations in the case of predecessors and successors, it's still much more than a thousand years.

 

IIRC, the last "official" (i.e. the last time Lucas decided on what it meant) explanation was that the Sith had been steadily pushing the Force itself out of balance, and the Force responded with Jesus/Anakin Skywalker to restore the Force into balance.

Lucas had also said the Dark Side was like a cancer in nature, and had to be destroyed. He changed his mind on lots of things about Star Wars over the decades.

 

One Republic is not the same as another. Technically the Jedi could have protected the "Old Republic" For 25,000 years, and the most recent incarnation of the "Old Republic" in the PT could have been around just for 1,000 years... since that was how long the Sith have been "extinct"

[Ghisallo]

OP...long story short Lucas changed his mind.

 

Longer version.

 

There are two concepts of the force in the Star Wars Universe. The "Living Force" and the "Unifying Force.". The Living Force concept says that the Force is . Now some Jedi do believe in the Universal Force but most believe in "the Living force. These Jedi see the Dark Side as "unnatural" and so to bring balance means restoring the " natural" balance... preserving the light because the Light side is the "natural state" of the Universe. Lucas in an interview after the PTs that "bringing balance meant destroying evil.

 

The Unifying Force concept says the Force simply " is" and that it is not inherently light or dark but contains both and this is where the idea of balance you raise lies. Some even see the force as an Entity. In Season III of TCW we see the Father tell Anakin that too much darkness or light would cause the end of the universe as we know it, that his job is to keep both the Son and Daughter (the incarnations basically of the dark and light respectively) in check and that he hoped that one day the Chosen one would take his place.

 

I said George changed his mind (again) not only because this but because, in the TCW Complete season 3 commentaries, Lucas said that the purpose of the chosen one was indeed to keep both light and dark in check. Now this is not a complete retcon of the movies because even Yoda says that the prophecy could have been misread...his problem, when we look at the new interpretation, is that he believed in the Living Force. So he thought maybe the Chosen One was not supposed to bring balance. The Chosen One is supposed to bring balance...Yoda and the Jedi simply were using the wrong lenses... They should have used the lenses of the Universal force.

 

The problem is that not everyone has seen TCW season 3 let alone the commentaries.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Fyurii]

One Republic is not the same as another. Technically the Jedi could have protected the "Old Republic" For 25,000 years, and the most recent incarnation of the "Old Republic" in the PT could have been around just for 1,000 years... since that was how long the Sith have been "extinct"

 

That's how the EU adapted to the change in the two dialogues, and why the Republic had no standing military.

The New Sith Wars leading to the Ruusan Reformation, completely restructuring the Republic and Jedi Order.

 

At the time though, it was simply a case of Lucas contradicting his own earlier work.

When he created Darth Ruin when writing Episode 1, it was as the very first Sith, around 2,000 years before Episode 1. Not the first of his Order, but the first Sith to ever exist.

The EU adapted to that with Ruin being a Jedi who turned to the Dark Side and began the period of the The New Sith Wars, eventually leading to Lucas' other Sith creation for the Sith backstory, Darth Bane.

 

It still, in no way, explains why Obi-Wan is explaining it to Luke as though it was for a period of time greater than one to two thousand years, other than the fact that Lucas done did goofed, or (yet again) changed his mind.

[Ghisallo]

That's how the EU adapted to the change in the two dialogues, and why the Republic had no standing military.

The New Sith Wars leading to the Ruusan Reformation, completely restructuring the Republic and Jedi Order.

 

At the time though, it was simply a case of Lucas contradicting his own earlier work.

When he created Darth Ruin when writing Episode 1, it was as the very first Sith, around 2,000 years before Episode 1. Not the first of his Order, but the first Sith to ever exist.

The EU adapted to that with Ruin being a Jedi who turned to the Dark Side and began the period of the The New Sith Wars, eventually leading to Lucas' other Sith creation for the Sith backstory, Darth Bane.

 

It still, in no way, explains why Obi-Wan is explaining it to Luke as though it was for a period of time greater than one to two thousand years, other than the fact that Lucas done did goofed, or (yet again) changed his mind.

 

I don't think it has to be a contradiction though. The Jedi Order can simply be a "constant". Where the Republic changed substantially, even after the Ruusan Reformation the Jedi are still the Jedi. Example irl...http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta. The world and the Church has undergone great changes...the order itself has changed (all LA the Ruusan reformation) but the Knights of Malta still exist.

 

The church was its own Nation State when the order was founded. There were no democracies at the time and the order itself now serves in a noncombatant medical capacity. However a member of the order could still say " the Order has served the Church and protected people for almost 1000 years." So I don't see how Obi Wan's statement is somehow inherently contradictory.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Galdos]

IIRC, the last "official" (i.e. the last time Lucas decided on what it meant) explanation was that the Sith had been steadily pushing the Force itself out of balance, and the Force responded with Jesus/Anakin Skywalker to restore the Force into balance.

Lucas had also said the Dark Side was like a cancer in nature, and had to be destroyed. He changed his mind on lots of things about Star Wars over the decades.

 

Last I check this is what I heard also.

 

The number of Jedi and Sith have nothing to do with the "Balance" because the Force is its own living thing. The Sith and their use of the dark side would throw the Force out of balance and corrupt it like a cancer.

 

So the Chosen One would be the one to remove the cancer letting the Force be at peace.

[Ghisallo]

Last I check this is what I heard also.

 

The number of Jedi and Sith have nothing to do with the "Balance" because the Force is its own living thing. The Sith and their use of the dark side would throw the Force out of balance and corrupt it like a cancer.

 

So the Chosen One would be the one to remove the cancer letting the Force be at peace.

 

Read my post. He said that after the PT...then changed his mind and retconned it with Season III of TCW. Both the light and dark can corrupt the force. The force contains both the light and the dark side and so to much of either would destroy the Universe as the characters know it. In order to balance things the board had to be "reset" due to Sidious' actions. If Anakin had simply helped Mace kill Sidious the light would have corrupted the force. So Anakin had to first tear down the Jedi...then later kill Sidious to complete the prophesy and "reset" things.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Galdos]

Read my post. He said that after the PT...then changed his mind and retconned it with Season III of TCW. Both the light and dark can corrupt the force. The force contains both the light and the dark side and so to much of either would destroy the Universe as the characters know it. In order to balance things the board had to be "reset" due to Sidious' actions. If Anakin had simply helped Mace kill Sidious the light would have corrupted the force. So Anakin had to first tear down the Jedi...then later kill Sidious to complete the prophesy and "reset" things.

 

Oh he recently changed it? Damn. I thought that arc was dumb.

 

Good thing I can choose to ignore it if I wanted lol.

[Ghisallo]

Oh he recently changed it? Damn. I thought that arc was dumb.

 

Good thing I can choose to ignore it if I wanted lol.

 

Yeah at first I was like "okay maybe the father is just looking at things from a different philosophical mind set. Either could be true." BUT then in the complete season III commentary Lucas Canonized that as the way the force works and what the purpose of the Chosen One was in that context.

 

Tbh I like the "new" idea better. The fact that the Force simply is, that the light and dark are both an integral part of it gives greater meaning to me in terms of someone who chooses "the dark side." Under the old idea you could always rationalize a character going sideways as "he was seduced" or "he was corrupted by" the dark side. Either of these absolve the fallen of some responsibility. If the Force itself is both light and dark then the fall is shown entirely as it should be... entirely on the shoulders of the fallen because of a conscious choice. On top of that I never thought the idea of the dark side being a corruption to make sense in the greater EU. If that was the case the various Sith Empires that were in hiding would never have been able to hide. I mean I know both Sidious and Plaqueis were powerful BUT I would think if you noticed their shenanigans as a great disturbance in the force you would notice an entire Empire of Sith, led by Vitiate doing their shenanigans.

 

At least that's my take on it.

 

Thing is whether legends continuity or new canon that's the way of it so how do you ignore it if you want to avoid fan fiction land?

Edited April 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

Well as other's has said and according to the Jedi Order, the prophecy has been misunderstood, and is fact very much a yin yang thing. Which I feel makes sense given the word balance means exactly that, not the eradication of any one side, and in the end evil is necessary for good to exist. But Jedi piety, self-assurance and arguably naivety blinded them to this truth. Not that one can blame them, as such a reality would bring their purpose into question.

 

For the record this is the actual prophecy according to the Jedi Order:

 

In the time of greatest despair,

a child shall be born

who will destroy the Sith

and bring balance to the Force

So Order 66 definitely didn't bring this about. Understand that is all started when Sidious and his Order began expanding the power of the dark side and causing it to grow and spread throughout the galaxy, this began to cause an imbalance in the Force and is why the likes of Yoda in the movie keep saying the dark side clouds everything.

 

And in the novel Darth Plagueis is actually revealed that Plagueis and Sidious conducted a ritual just prior to The Phantom Menance that shifted the balance of the Force in the dark side's favour quite significantly. At this point the Force of whomever guides it decided enough was enough and that led to the creation of the Chosen One.

 

Order 66 was the culmination of this shift to the dark side however, not a resolution to it.

 

Now Plagueis believed the Jedi Order had inadvertedly or otherwise created a sort of light side "bubble", a sort of sphere (or a metaphorical fortress) in the Force that protected the light and allowed it to flourish, and also prevented the dark side from tainting it. The Sith effectively pierced this bubble, and when Order 66 was executed, leading to the wholesale slaughter of countless Jedi, which is bad for the living Force full stop, this bubble popped, the light side was broken completely and the dark side spread totally and completely throughout the galaxy.

 

There is more than one reason why its called "The Dark Times", it was no period of balance.

 

Now of course at the core of this dark side influence was the man himself, Darth Sidious. So the best way to restore the balance would be to destroy the core, cut off the head, bring down the Sith as the prophecy had well prophesied.

 

And Anakin does this, albeit with a little help from Luke, but ultimately it is Vader, the Chosen One, who destroys Darth Sidious and in the process redeems himself (then dies), he destroys the Sith from the inside.

 

One could argue the Jedi had to be all but wiped out to see this come to pass, but I'm not sure. Whatever the truth I think it effectively represents the constant and cosmic struggle for light and dark, that he been going on for 5,000 years now, this is the culmination of that struggle, and it ends with a mutual destruction and a kind of rebirth.

[Ghisallo]

Beni my only reason for thinking the Jedi had to go bye bye too was because of the following. Let's say Anakin took the shortest route to the prophecy's fulfillment...he helps Mace instead of lopping his arm off. Now Sidious is gone and the light is paramount. That would be just as bad.

 

You mentioned Jedi naïveté (what you call self assurance I think bordered on arrogance but that's just semantics). This went, imo, beyond a misinterpretation of the prophecy and also included think the Sith were gone. This allowed the Sith to eventually get powerful enough to (for lack of a better term) "shake the foundations." Before the Light was more powerful BUT there was enough darkness to keep the scales from the "terminal" tipping point. Their naïveté and self assurance though meant that Sidious found himself not only in a position to virtually wipe them out BUT also in a position where simply destroying him would have resulted in the light itself pushing the scales beyond the point of no return.

 

The only thing I wanted to clarify is this though. AFAIK the competeing force concepts, the Living force and Unifying Force, are in essence opposed to each other, most Jedi believing in the Living Force.

 

----The philosophy of the Living force sees the force as "simply" and energy field that connects all living things. As such it gives birth to the idea that the light is the natural state of the force and that the dark side is a corruption or cancer. Thus we had the misinterpretation of the Chosen One bringing balance by destroying evil.

The followers of this philosophy (with some selective exceptions...some believed in prophecy BUT not the rest of the Unifying force idea) also believed strongly in living in the moment and relying on ones instincts, doing what needed doing, rather than trying to fulfill some greater destiny.

----On the other hand the Unifying force sees the force as a virtual entity which saw no distinction between light and dark but simply "was" and was equally present in those who used the light or the dark. This was the faction that had a very strong belief in prophecy and the idea of trying to fulfill and greater destiny.

 

With the retcon of what is balance and thus what the purpose of the Chosen One is (keeping both light and dark in check), aren't we left with the concept of the Living Force being wrong as the core of that concept is that balance means the light being the natural state of the force?

[Galdos]

 

Thing is whether legends continuity or new canon that's the way of it so how do you ignore it if you want to avoid fan fiction land?

 

Easy, I live in fan fiction land. I have no problem grabbing stuff from legends and canon and bringing it together to make my personal canon. When discussing it I make sure I know about the proper canon but I prefer to enjoy my own little world because it allows me to take my favorite moments and stories of both places and run with it instead of dealing wih what I dont like.

 

Being a fan of 40k really helps in this lol

Edited April 19, 2015 by Galdos

[Ghisallo]

That's cool then. I am a little different. I like having a canon (which is why the retcons annoy me). For immersion I appreciate things in the Canon that may "frustrate" me and thus my characters. It makes it feel more "real.". As long as the frustration is from " in-game" of course. If the frustration is "meta" because the canon point lacks logical sense...then it breaks my sense of immersion. Example. I am frustrated "in game" by the fact that Mon Mothma and others did nothing to "punish" Borsk Fey'lya for many of his actions, motivated by his personal ambitions, that directly undermined the New Republic. This however in the context of the Zahn books made sense. However I get driven nuts irl by retcons that seem to have little purpose beyond an author appearing to say "look at how cool I am." Edited April 19, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

Hear hear, I like that perspective. And yeah I didn't want to slag the Jedi off to much so I went for the softer terms.

 

But yes I agree, and I think that is definitely the tone set by the Yoda arc in TCW, that the Jedi had lost their way.

 

No longer certain that one ever does win a war I am.

For in fighting the battles, the bloodshed already lost we have.

Yet, open to us, a path remains that unknown to the Sith is.

Through this path, victory we may yet find.

Not victory in the Clone Wars but victory for all time.

 

Those are the final lines in the series, and you definitely get a feeling that the Jedi have failed, that they've gone about things in the wrong way. But there is still a chance for the Jedi to succeed, just not at the hands of their generation.

 

I'm hoping they expand on these ideas with the Sequels, what with Luke and co. being that generation, it will be interesting to see how Luke's philosophy and action differs from that of his predecessors.

 

Also in terms of the Living Force/Unifying Force philosophies, that's undergone something of a retcon. The Living Force in particular is no longer so much a philosophy, but an actual aspect of the Force, living things, that the Force exists in. The stress is (and arguably always has been) on the notion that the Force "surrounds us, penetrates us".

 

And of course the stress is on living in the moment, feeling this pervasive "force" and acting on instinct. But of course the dark side is often seen to physically corrupt and kill life, so it could be interpreted as a cancer in this way.

 

The "opposite" of the Living Force is now the Cosmic Force, which is another aspect of the Force, the cosmic is sort of the beyond, its the binding aspect of the Force, its beyond living things but living things also channel into it, and its what they become when the die, and I suppose in part its embodied by the Netherworld of the Force and spirits.

 

However again the Unifying Force, really reflects this aspect, its been described as binding "the stars and planets in space and time", and proponents of this philosophy really look beyond the now, the living, they look to the future, to destiny, to the cosmic flow of the universe. And of course that cosmic flow includes the forces of light and dark.

 

I think the distinction can be compared in many ways to the physical and the metaphysical in real world concepts.

 

Anyway the new Canon is stressing on the aspects of the Force that these philosophies would appear to stem from, rather than the philosophies themselves. So while the philosophy that derives from the living Force in terms of light and dark may be misplaced, the living Force itself, and what it means in terms of "feeling life" definitely holds water.

[Temeluchus]

 

You mentioned Jedi naïveté (what you call self assurance I think bordered on arrogance but that's just semantics). This went, imo, beyond a misinterpretation of the prophecy and also included think the Sith were gone. This allowed the Sith to eventually get powerful enough to (for lack of a better term) "shake the foundations." Before the Light was more powerful BUT there was enough darkness to keep the scales from the "terminal" tipping point. Their naïveté and self assurance though meant that Sidious found himself not only in a position to virtually wipe them out BUT also in a position where simply destroying him would have resulted in the light itself pushing the scales beyond the point of no return.

 

While The Chosen One certainly accelerated the Jedi Order's defeat and fall, the ROTS novelization has Yoda stating that the main reason for their defeat and inability to detect the Sith until it was too late was that the Order had been stagnant and training to fight the same old war for 1000 years while the Sith had watched, adapted and evolved.

[Ghisallo]

While The Chosen One certainly accelerated the Jedi Order's defeat and fall, the ROTS novelization has Yoda stating that the main reason for their defeat and inability to detect the Sith until it was too late was that the Order had been stagnant and training to fight the same old war for 1000 years while the Sith had watched, adapted and evolved.

 

Yes but that stagnation came from arrogance. When you think your have destroyed your enemy you have no reason to search for him, no reason to train to fight him again because you think the War was won.

[t-darko]

Yes but that stagnation came from arrogance. When you think your have destroyed your enemy you have no reason to search for him, no reason to train to fight him again because you think the War was won.

 

Must say I enjoy this thread. Ghisallo, I favor your argument, it seems, odd, doesn't it;). But however I wouldn't say arrogance, there's been a clear strategy with in the Jedi Order to isolate the in depth knowledge of the, from a Jedi perspective, drawbacks of the Force, since the Ruusan Reformation. Recruiting extreme young force sensitives, not exposing them to the temptations from the darkside, there by isolating the in depth knowledge to a few of the Council. Good thinking. from a certain point of view, damage control if you like. The actions taken is logical, an enemy not seen in a couple of thousand years and they wouldn't want to create the same mistakes of old Exar, Ulic and others, by sharing to much knowledge and thereby taking the risk of create new darkside Jedis!!

 

From a meta perspective we can see them making themselves vulnerable, indeed they underestimated and misread the final days of the war against the dark brotherhood and were utterly unaware of Darth Bane's intentions and actions, but was it arrogance?! Or just a relief of the success of the drastic measures taken to win the war, that they, from a Jedi perspective, finally had won by killing of all Sith!!?

 

I think when we're discussing these matters it's useless to debate Lucas intentions, alterations and brushups. the certain point of view angel isn't really that far fetched, to put yourself in someones shoes, to view some thing from someone elses perspective is a tough challenge, but necessary when reasoning around the doings and happenings around our favorite characters in our favorite universe. to understand we need, at some point, leave the meta perspective and reason in micro individual perspective. If RP is your thing it would make it all that more 'simple'

[daniel_the_saint]

Read my post. He said that after the PT...then changed his mind and retconned it with Season III of TCW. Both the light and dark can corrupt the force. The force contains both the light and the dark side and so to much of either would destroy the Universe as the characters know it. In order to balance things the board had to be "reset" due to Sidious' actions. If Anakin had simply helped Mace kill Sidious the light would have corrupted the force. So Anakin had to first tear down the Jedi...then later kill Sidious to complete the prophesy and "reset" things.

And Annakin did "bring about" the great innovator of how the Force is perceived/used - Luke Skywalker.

Of course, this is all pre-Disney reset, but Luke circa Dark Nest was basically "the Force IS. It's neither Light nor Dark, it's how we use it that makes it Light or Dark" basically, you can throw lightning from your fingers and be a Jedi if it's done righteously and you can heal someone and still be a Sith if it's done for selfish reasons.

 

Annakin simply created a situation where that reevaluation could happen. It'd have never happened if there was a Jedi Council that could trace it's lineage back to the Old Council that (for example) sentenced Revan. It needed a council of people who (basically) taught themselves how to be Jedi and how to interact with the Force in order for that seachange in worldview to happen.

It needed Luke Skywalker, and for Luke Skywalker to be Luke Skywalker the old Jedi Order needed to be burnt to the ground. In the old Order, Luke's reforms would have seen him labelled a rebel, or a Dark Jedi (at the least a "Grey Jedi" like Qui-Gon) and shunned by the wider order. Nothing would have changed.

[CloudCastle]

This is a great conversation and I'm enjoying reading it. I'm still not sure I completely understand, but it sounds like the whole situation is so complex because of retcons and such that maybe that's to be expected.

 

I just watched the Clone Wars episode with the father and his two children, each representing one side of the Force. That's exactly what triggered my initial question. There was tons of imagery in those episodes of Anakin as some sort god of the light and dark, particularly a scene in which he actually stands like a giant scale holding the two children on either side of him.

 

Given this interpretation, the Prophesy starts to not make sense, unless of course, you assume that the Jedi misinterpreted all along. You'd think after witnessing all that crazy stuff on Mortis though, Obi Wan would have at least started going, "hmmm."

 

Did George even attempt to make some sense of his own changes? If someone asked him, "How did Anakin fulfill the prophesy," what his answer would be?

[Temeluchus]

Yes but that stagnation came from arrogance. When you think your have destroyed your enemy you have no reason to search for him, no reason to train to fight him again because you think the War was won.

I'd say less arrogance and more so pride, but we agree the Jedi let themselves be blinded. The Jedi Order at that time really did not follow it's own code. So prideful and set in their ways that they ultimately failed themselves and the Republic, even without the Chosen One I think Sidious could have wiped them out easily.

[bigray]

The prophecy says that a chosen one will be born in the dark times to bring balance to the Force.

 

The Jedi interpreted that to mean that as the power of the darkside grew, the chosen one would appear to "restore balance". The Jedi felt that the dark side was growing beyond the light starting with the events of TPM right through ROTS. Their perspective was off of course - to them balance meant that the dark side was hidden, under the surface, not relevant in day to day life.

 

Anakin fought on both sides of the Force. His decision to side with Palpatine allowed the dark to rise to the surface, and dominate for a time. His decision at the end of ROTJ effectively ended the control of the dark side. At that point, both sides of the force had been cut down, or reduced, by Anakin's actions. He truly did bring balance to the Force. We'll see if Luke can maintain that balance in The Force Awakens.

[Beniboybling]

This is a great conversation and I'm enjoying reading it. I'm still not sure I completely understand, but it sounds like the whole situation is so complex because of retcons and such that maybe that's to be expected.

 

I just watched the Clone Wars episode with the father and his two children, each representing one side of the Force. That's exactly what triggered my initial question. There was tons of imagery in those episodes of Anakin as some sort god of the light and dark, particularly a scene in which he actually stands like a giant scale holding the two children on either side of him.

 

Given this interpretation, the Prophesy starts to not make sense, unless of course, you assume that the Jedi misinterpreted all along. You'd think after witnessing all that crazy stuff on Mortis though, Obi Wan would have at least started going, "hmmm."

 

Did George even attempt to make some sense of his own changes? If someone asked him, "How did Anakin fulfill the prophesy," what his answer would be?

One would imagine, but then again Kenobi says in Voices that he believed the vision of Qui-Gon to be just an illusion, and not really him. So its possible he didn't put much stock in the experience.

 

That said, we don't actually know exactly what the Jedi believe. We know the Living Force and Living Force philosophy believes in light and dark sides, we know the Jedi believe the Sith cause death and corruption, and that Qui-Gon actually percieved the Sith as an enemy of the Living Force. But does that translate to the dark side too?

 

Can a Jedi really say the Dark Side of the Force is an enemy of the Force? Seems contradictory.

 

I'd also suggest you watch the TCW Yoda arc: Voices, Destiny and Sacrifice, if you haven't already, of Season 6, as it gives a few more insights into the Force, Jedi philosophy etc. One of the things that is interesting is some trials that Yoda has to undergo, one of them involves confronting and fighting a physical manifestion of his dark side.

 

At first Yoda is like "know you, I do not", but only manages to beat him by accepting who he is:

Recognise you, I do.

Part of me you are, yes.

But power over me you have not.

Through patience and training, it is I who control you.

Control over me you have not.

My dark side you are. Reject you I do.

After that, Yoda is described as have "conquered his hubris." So what does this mean? Well I thought it interesting because Yoda accepts his dark side exists, he doesn't destroy it, he accepts it, and he conquers it.

 

Yoda doesn't seem to have any problems with that, which suggests the goal of the Jedi is not to eradicate the dark side, but to tame it, to control it, and given that the Sith are effectively the antithesis of this goal, promoted its propagation and unchecked spread, the Jedi would naturally see them as a threat and an enemy.

 

But then again, the Jedi Path gives a different perspective:

You already know of the Force as ominpresent, simultaneously existing as both a personal energy and as an imposing power through its Living and Unifying aspects. The dark side is not some "missing piece." Don't be tricked into seeking it. The Force is a mountain rising from the water - the dark side is merely the submerged, scum-covered underside. If you choose to dive, the slime will trap and drown you.

 

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

Pretty hard line, but maybe this is the hubris being referred to, this imagined notion of purity.

 

To be honest I'm not sure the Jedi have a defined philosophy, and I expect if fluctuates over time. The Jedi Code is interpretable and many Jedi have taken many different stances and viewpoints over the years. But regardless of whether the Jedi believe the dark side should be eradicated or controlled, their animosity towards the Sith remains.

 

So I think regardless of what Kenobi, Anakin or Ahsoka took from Mortis. I'm sure they'd all agree the Sith threat needed to be stopped. Because the Sith =/= balance in any real respect. Even the Son is not regarded as a Sith, and his recent lust for power is described as out of character, but very much in the vein of every Sith Lord in history.

 

But, if the Jedi believed the solution was to kill the Son, they would be wrong, but he was still the enemy.

 

Rambling a little now, but an interesting question is this, if there were no Sith in the galaxy and only Jedi, would that be balance? Yes could be a possible answer. Yoda discovered/accepted that even he has a dark side, the greatest Jedi in galactic history, a paragon of light yada yada, that means every Jedi has a dark side inside them.

 

So would that equate to balance? The dark side within everyone is kept in check, but its still there.

 

On the other hand if we define balance as Jedi and Sith in equal strengths, its more problematic. Because if Jedi have a dark side, to create equal balance, Sith would have to have a light side, no? An equivalent entity. I find it hard to believe Darth Sidious, or many Sith Lords, had a light side, the dark side once embraced is often described as an all consuming power. And individuals like Vader, the redeemable kind of which there is still good in, are rare.

 

Think of it like this, no Jedi is beyond seduction, but many Sith are beyond redemption. That is not balance. This might explain why good always triumphs over evil, but then again, the Sith always come back.

 

Could this be the will of the Force? Or just mortal imperfection? Questions, questions.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Beniboybling

[CloudCastle]

Yoda doesn't seem to have any problems with that, which suggests the goal of the Jedi is not to eradicate the dark side, but to tame it, to control it, and given that the Sith are effectively the antithesis of this goal, promoted its propagation and unchecked spread, the Jedi would naturally see them as a threat and an enemy.

 

I like this idea here. Makes a little more sense than just denying that a dark side can or should exist at all.

 

I think I'm on season three of the series at the moment. I'm watching them in order...although I recently discovered that the storylines aren't in chronological order and that's actually how they aired. No wonder I was confused when the Uncle Rodian guy mysteriously reappeared alive and well after I just seen him killed off the season before.