ForceWelder Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) I know BW is all about metrics and number crunching. But how is it that by looking at the leadershipboards that they can't see what many of us declare as being obvious? That the Merc / Mando classes are in some desperate need of survival loving in 4 v 4? Just look at the numbers ... Today (April 17th), there is only 1749 Merc / Mandos across all of the servers that even meet the requirement to get Bronze level rewards in solo. Considering that around 19,700 players that currently can receive this reward that is less than 8.9%. Just to break even 12.5% of us would have had to made this level. Just to have a fair respresentation, about 2400 Merc / Mandos should have made just this initial entry level. When you look at silver, the percentage of Merc / Mandos is just as grim. That is just 76 players who have reached this goal out of the 1900 or so that have made it. That is a miserable 4%. Which means out of all the players who can make silver only 4% of them play Merc / Mandos. And for gold ... only 20 of us have reached this goal out of the 400 or so players that qualify. This is around 5%. When that percentage represents a large number of healers and the absolute best players among us, that should speak volumns about the survivability of the other AC options of this class. Can the Devs really be that blind? Or do they just simply don't care or have a clue? And in case you are curious, here is a break down of the classes Class Number in Bronze Guardian / Jugger 2908 Sent / Mara 1459 Shadow / Assassin 3799 Sage / Sor 4313 Vanguard / PT 2351 Merc / Mando 1749 Gunslinger / Sniper 990 Scoundrel / OP 2130 Edited April 17, 2015 by ForceWelder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangKer Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I know BW is all about metrics and number crunching. But how is it that by looking at the leadershipboards that they can't see what many of us declare as being obvious? That the Merc / Mando classes are in some desperate need of survival loving in 4 v 4? Just look at the numbers ... Today (April 17th), there is only 1749 Merc / Mandos across all of the servers that even meet the requirement to get Bronze level rewards in solo. Considering that around 19,700 players that currently can receive this reward that is less than 8.9%. Just to break even 12.5% of us would have had to made this level. Just to have a fair respresentation, about 2400 Merc / Mandos should have made just this initial entry level. When you look at silver, the percentage of Merc / Mandos is just as grim. That is just 76 players who have reached this goal out of the 1900 or so that have made it. That is a miserable 4%. Which means out of all the players who can make silver only 4% of them play Merc / Mandos. And for gold ... only 20 of us have reached this goal out of the 400 or so players that qualify. This is around 5%. When that percentage represents a large number of healers and the absolute best players among us, that should speak volumns about the survivability of the other AC options of this class. Can the Devs really be that blind? Or do they just simply don't care or have a clue? And in case you are curious, here is a break down of the classes Class Number in Bronze Guardian / Jugger 2908 Sent / Mara 1459 Shadow / Assassin 3799 Sage / Sor 4313 Vanguard / PT 2351 Merc / Mando 1749 Gunslinger / Sniper 990 Scoundrel / OP 2130 Welp. IB4 Merc / Mandos get a 35% blanket nerf for having "Too high" of a winning percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeotwo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Take away arenas and mercs are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jherad Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Take away arenas and mercs are fine. Well yeah. But as arenas are the sum total of all ranked competitive PvP gameplay, you really can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos_KidSWTOR Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Well yeah. But as arenas are the sum total of all ranked competitive PvP gameplay, you really can't. Exactamundo! If IO had less DoT dependancy like it's 2.10 counterpart, and Arsenal had less interruptable damage (Tracers, Blazing Bolts) then Mercs would be fine. I'm actually thinking a good idea to help Mercs out is allow Electro Net to make you resist all intterupts for the duration of the DoT that is placed, Making it a stronger DCD, of course this would need to be put on a Utility, and our Heroic Utilities need a rework anyways (Such as Jet Rebounder and Supercharged Reserves as they are both useless!) So, make a new Heroic Utility that makes Electro Net grant Interrupt Immunity to the Merc. There, that is a 1m CD 8s duration, Interrupt Immunity. Couple that with say, Hydraulic Overrides allows ALL abilities to be used on the move for the duration, Mercs would be much better off, so Rework Thrill of the Hunt to allow Hydraulic Overrides to make ALL abilities on the move, and Mercs would be lightyears more competative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatPERSON Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 well for one, according to this list mercs will be the third to get help right after snipers and marauders. mercs dont have it the worst anymore. be glad for that fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DariusCalera Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 well for one, according to this list mercs will be the third to get help right after snipers and marauders. mercs dont have it the worst anymore. be glad for that fact! Maras/Sents were the "worst" for less than 3 months before they started to see buffs to bring them back into line. Snipers/slingers and mercs/mandos have been two of the bottom three performing specs for every season since they started. In seasons 1 and 3 they were dead last. In none of the previous seasons did any of these classes really receive the buffs necessary to bring them up to a level where they were not thought of anything more than an annoyance, if not a down right hindrance, if you found one on your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeotwo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) Well yeah. But as arenas are the sum total of all ranked competitive PvP gameplay, you really can't. So what? What is there to compete for? What are you competing for? Edited April 25, 2015 by fujeotwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MASOLIZ Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 So what? What is there to compete for? What are you competing for? We compete in hopes of bringing back old tracer missle animation:rolleyes: /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeotwo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 We compete in hopes of bringing back old tracer missle animation:rolleyes: /sarcasm Not a balance issue sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jherad Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 So what? What is there to compete for? What are you competing for? The same thing anyone competes for in any competitive game or sport. For the fun of being able to win in a playing field hopefully only limited by your own ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeotwo Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 The same thing anyone competes for in any competitive game or sport. For the fun of being able to win in a playing field hopefully only limited by your own ability. So go start a dueling club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatPERSON Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 We compete in hopes of bringing back old tracer missle animation:rolleyes: /sarcasm you know.... i would grind ranked arenas if it meant getting that animation back as a reward! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojomagro Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I'd like to see an exact number of DPS mercs/mandos that made it to each bracket. The reason mara/sent sniper/slinger are lower is because they are pure DPS. Take away the bodyguard mercs and combat medic mandos and then we could see which DPS class is the worst in rated PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I'd like to see an exact number of DPS mercs/mandos that made it to each bracket. The reason mara/sent sniper/slinger are lower is because they are pure DPS. Take away the bodyguard mercs and combat medic mandos and then we could see which DPS class is the worst in rated PVP. This... so much this. The recent Mara changes are so strong, i see so many of them of late and they are getting it done... they are not even close to the cellar anymore. And among those Mercs that were successful what team comps they were in. The leader boards as we have it are so limited they are borderline useless in telling us anything anyway aside from the raw number. it has no context, nothing of any real value. Plus there are far too many high rated guys that played so few matches. more matches should get higher weight in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojomagro Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) This... so much this. The recent Mara changes are so strong, i see so many of them of late and they are getting it done... they are not even close to the cellar anymore. And among those Mercs that were successful what team comps they were in. The leader boards as we have it are so limited they are borderline useless in telling us anything anyway aside from the raw number. it has no context, nothing of any real value. Plus there are far too many high rated guys that played so few matches. more matches should get higher weight in my opinion. Yeah. Mercs can be viable in team with a good tank and good healer, (but what class wouldn't be?) ideally along side a PT tank and PT deeps for the double carbonize. But in solo DPS merc/mando is nothing short of a hindrance to your team imo. I spent the matches in season 4 kiting non-stop. If i had stopped for two seconds to play my class as intended I would have died faster than I could blink. Edited April 29, 2015 by Jojomagro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Yeah. Mercs can be viable in team with a good tank and good healer, (but what class wouldn't be?) ideally along side a PT tank and PT deeps for the double carbonize. But in solo DPS merc/mando is nothing short of a hindrance to your team imo. I spent the matches in season 4 kiting non-stop. If i had stopped for two seconds to play my class as intended I would have died faster than I could blink. Yeah i feel ya there.. ive gone thru 4 pairs of boots wearing out the soles from all the running around... last week alone. People talk about a Mercs rotation and im like i cant stand still long enough to even use tracer, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloneli Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Rip rating and dream: http://i.imgur.com/PzwHVtP.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XantosCledwin Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) I'd like to see an exact number of DPS mercs/mandos that made it to each bracket. The reason mara/sent sniper/slinger are lower is because they are pure DPS. Take away the bodyguard mercs and combat medic mandos and then we could see which DPS class is the worst in rated PVP. No, in order to see that you would also need to get rid of the following: Shield Specialist / Shield Tech Sawbones / Medicine Kinetic Combat / Darkness Seer / Corruption Defense Immortal Only then would you be able to get a legitimate metric of which DPS class is doing the most / least DPS. Even then you would need to have a way to know what spec each person is using at any given time to know which spec is under or over performing in terms of overall DPS. And game balance would be all shot to hell if we got rid of all of the above disciplines. Edited April 30, 2015 by XantosCledwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeotwo Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 No, in order to see that you would also need to get rid of the following: Shield Specialist / Shield Tech Sawbones / Medicine Kinetic Combat / Darkness Seer / Corruption Defense Immortal Only then would you be able to get a legitimate metric of which DPS class is doing the most / least DPS. Even then you would need to have a way to know what spec each person is using at any given time to know which spec is under or over performing in terms of overall DPS. And game balance would be all shot to hell if we got rid of all of the above disciplines. Don't know if you missed the thread title, but this thread doesn't concern any of those classes. Their asking to differentiate between healer mercs/mandos that are on the leaderboards and DPS mercs/mandos that are on the leaderboards. The goal of which being to see just how many DPS mercs/mandos are on the leaderboards. It has nothing to do with comparing DPS specs of all classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splasm Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 As a player of Merc/Mando for over a year I can say that the struggle is real. The Problem lies with the design flaw of how the class is meant to mitigate incoming damage. Snipers are meant to be relatively static and are afforded defenses to handle that, several more than mercenary. Many of Sniper abilities have a cast time and as a result the added defenses are needed. Mercenaries have nearly as many if not the same number of abilities with a cast time yet they are forced to operate without the defenses of the sniper. The mercenary has design elements of a kite based class, yet falls through because it remains a half measure. Having a snare on one of Arsenals signature abilities is great, but making us spend our only real point in heroic utilities on that mobility is a slap in the face. This paired with Hydraulic over ride and our Net really suggest we need to be in constant motion, but to do so we give up our main attacks. Honestly with only 2 real defensive cooldowns worth mentioning (energy shield and knockback) one of them can be mitigated by physics/movement impairing immunity such as juggernauts after they charge. With all this you might be saying that mercs/mandos have heals so why havent I factored that in. Because out of the heals we have, the only real ones require us to stop and cast them. Stopping is death. That said it isnt impossible to do well on a mercenary. However you do have to work much harder to do well than any class I have played at 60, being all of them except marauder and sorcerer. Hopping onto a sniper after playing a merc and having developed the situational awareness that comes with that is just mind blowing. Its easy to pull considerably higher numbers in unranked with careful positioning that makes you a hassle to come get. As a merc we have the reputation already. Ive watched assassins walk through my entire team in 8v8 to come get me, getting lit up the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojomagro Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 No, in order to see that you would also need to get rid of the following: Shield Specialist / Shield Tech Sawbones / Medicine Kinetic Combat / Darkness Seer / Corruption Defense Immortal Only then would you be able to get a legitimate metric of which DPS class is doing the most / least DPS. Even then you would need to have a way to know what spec each person is using at any given time to know which spec is under or over performing in terms of overall DPS. And game balance would be all shot to hell if we got rid of all of the above disciplines. Between the three I mentioned... And if you think sniper, merc and mara aren't at the bottom of the barrel you're taking crazy pills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XantosCledwin Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Don't know if you missed the thread title, but this thread doesn't concern any of those classes. Their asking to differentiate between healer mercs/mandos that are on the leaderboards and DPS mercs/mandos that are on the leaderboards. The goal of which being to see just how many DPS mercs/mandos are on the leaderboards. It has nothing to do with comparing DPS specs of all classes. Don't know if you missed the quote I was responding to or not; but that person wanted to get rid of Commando and Mercenaries healing spec so we could get a better idea of the actual DPS that they do when compared to the dedicated DPS classes (Sentinel, Sniper, etc...). I was merely pointing out that in order to do that you need to get rid of all the other non-DPS oriented specs so you could have a true test of how the DPS classes are performing... And no that was not what they were asking... though that was probably the intent. Between the three I mentioned... And if you think sniper, merc and mara aren't at the bottom of the barrel you're taking crazy pills. I never said those three weren't bottom of the barrel. I said that to get a true test of the DPS in the game you need to look at all of the DPS specs, not just three of them. otherwise you get a biased result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojomagro Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) I never said those three weren't bottom of the barrel. I said that to get a true test of the DPS in the game you need to look at all of the DPS specs, not just three of them. otherwise you get a biased result. The others are irrelevant due to the fact they perform so well on average. This was an assumption made earlier in the thread. This is purely a discussion about which of the obviously underperforming classes is at the bottom and requesting DPS merc/mando numbers to determine which DPS is truly at the bottom. Edited April 30, 2015 by Jojomagro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcurri Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 It honestly just comes down to the lack of an Anti-focus ability (something that penalizes an enemy player for attacking you, makes it a HUGE waste of time, or disallows enemies from even targeting you in the first place)... Sages get the bubble with a heal to full (which can be used while stunned), guardians get reflect and basically 2 H2F's with Enure and focus defense (which can also be used while stunned) along with reflect which basically penalizes enemies for attacking you, every stealther gets a stealth then H2F out of combat, hell even Mara's get a vanish and GBDF. The only classes that don't have a REAL anti-focus ability are slingers and mando's. They have somewhat decent Defensive CD's, but nothing in the way of what's described above, something that will deter the enemy team from attacking you for any REAL period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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