Is it time to refresh the Subscriber/F2P model?

[Devrius]

And none of them have lightsabers in them... and that is why this game is still here...

 

 

 

If you drop the limits that exist, I would expect a lot of subs to be canceled.

 

Why pay a sub if the game can be played without it.

 

Then the game really won't be here.

 

Personally I think the game would be better off INCREASING the F2P limits, not relaxing them. Get more people to sub.

 

Yeah, no.

 

Subs do not keep the game going, this much is obvious because if it did it would never had had to go F2P in the 1st place if that was true.

 

What keeps the lights on is not whatever amount of money they get regularly from us, it's the Cartel Packs and the CC market that brings the money, like every other "F2P" game.

[Anaesha]

5 dollars

 

Wrong. ok yes they get Pef status, they still have to buy the unlocks. OK they can buy it off the GNT. Boiware has still made the sale as the player selling has had to buy it. regardless its unfair if you have paid for the unlock by whatever means and the don't get the access you have paid for.

 

EDIT

Heat-Wave I agree 100% with you. I know I would end my sub.

 

As so many around here like to say and I can't believe I'm saying it. You get what you pay for if your unwilling to pay $15 why should you get any of the benefits that the people who are paying it get?

[Anaesha]

Yeah, no.

 

Subs do not keep the game going, this much is obvious because if it did it would never had had to go F2P in the 1st place if that was true.

 

What keeps the lights on is not whatever amount of money they get regularly from us, it's the Cartel Packs and the CC market that brings the money, like every other "F2P" game.

 

except it isn't the f2ps that are buying the CCs it's mainly the SUBs buying them.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Anaesha

[Ghisallo]

Doesn't matter, no steps would matter after the fact, the ship has sailed.

 

That isn't how large public companies tend to work, EA has written off this game, you won't see those fixes put into place, half the team from launch isn't even here anymore.

 

 

 

I've never launched a MMO either, and I already know not to make those mistakes.

 

You're defending the indefensible, the fact is, they didn't know what they were doing, it was amateur hour and it shows.

 

First there are no hard and fast rules. there are games that ticked off every box at launch and still failed due to timing, poor business decisions, player tastes etc. It is an art as much as it is a science.

 

Second how I am excusing anything? if you read what I posted I said the launch was BAD. What I said was that they are honest about the mistakes they made, and have taken clear actions in terms of adding new content and community type features to correct those mistakes. This is NOT excusing what happened in the past it is acknowledging that they are trying to make good on their screw up. Now as I said some people may not like the direction they took. I know plenty of people that would have been happier if they just made this an online TOR rather than an honest to god MMO, BUT they chose that direction and have taken rather clear corrective actions. Are the actions "enough?" That is subjective and I won't get into that particular debate.

 

Using your attitude if you make a mistake irl your friends, family, co-workers whoever should NEVER trust you again and treat you like a pariah, even i you said "kay my bad... I shouldn't have done that, see I am doing my best to fix it."

 

There is a difference between excusing a past action and acknowledging that someone has not only admitted their "bad acts" but that they are also trying to rehabilitate themselves.

[Devrius]

The only problem with that is all it takes to get pref status is to spend five freaking dollars. I don't see why a pref should get any more then they already get. Other then a slight raise in cred cap I can't see any justification for removing any of the other restrictions from prefs.

 

The expansions takes care of that, since even subs needs to buy them.

 

Preferred players get their restrictions removed, but still need to own the expansions so it's not just 5$, but 5$ and the current expansion to play the whole game, which means an annual purchase of the latest release pay content.

[Ghisallo]

Yeah, no.

 

Subs do not keep the game going, this much is obvious because if it did it would never had had to go F2P in the 1st place if that was true.

 

What keeps the lights on is not whatever amount of money they get regularly from us, it's the Cartel Packs and the CC market that brings the money, like every other "F2P" game.

 

It's actually kinda hand in hand. According to Bioware the majority of the cartel market sales actually go to subscribing players. As such without the subscribing players.... cut their microtransaction revenue in half at least. So in terms of total revenue it is the subscribing PLAYERS (though not their subscriptions) that keep the game afloat.

[DreadtechSavant]

As so many around here like to say and I can't believe I'm saying it. You get what you pay for if your unwilling to pay $15 why should you get any of the benefits that the people who are paying it get?

 

 

Your flogging a dead horse mate. If you don't think pref should get more then by default nether should f2p. so on that we agree.

Edited April 2, 2015 by DreadtechSavant

[Devrius]

except it isn't the f2ps that are buying the CCs it's mainly the SUBs buying them.

 

Think about this for a second, League of Legends doesn't even *have* a subscription system yet, playing it you see everyone other players using skins on their champions.

 

Everyone is "F2P" and they still spend money on cosmetic stuff, if sub was straight up removed from SWTOR people would still spend CC to buy packs only difference would be they buy CC first rather then get them as part of a sub.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Devrius

[DreadtechSavant]

Yeah, no.

 

Subs do not keep the game going, this much is obvious because if it did it would never had had to go F2P in the 1st place if that was true.

 

What keeps the lights on is not whatever amount of money they get regularly from us, it's the Cartel Packs and the CC market that brings the money, like every other "F2P" game.

 

 

Who buys all those cartel packs? subs!

 

Not f2p, because if they did they would not be f2p anymore would they!

[Ghisallo]

The expansions takes care of that, since even subs needs to buy them.

 

Preferred players get their restrictions removed, but still need to own the expansions so it's not just 5$, but 5$ and the current expansion to play the whole game, which means an annual purchase of the latest release pay content.

 

The real purpose of preferred status is not to generate cash... it's its an anti-gold farmer measure. there are some work arounds for them and there is no way to completely get rid of em just like you can't eliminate crime irl but it is a hinderance to their operations. If you notice while there is farmer spam in chat etc...the number of companies here are fewer than other games because the ones looking for "easier" money go elsewhere to maximize profits.

[Devrius]

Who buys all those cartel packs? subs!

 

Not f2p, because if they did they would not be f2p anymore would they!

 

Remove the subscription option from SWTOR, you really think those same people who buy hundred of crates for a particular mount would stop doing so? Because they can't "sub"?Yeah, didn't think so...

 

Being subs and buying packs is related in that those who would have bought CC and spend it on pack or the CC Market regardless of system implemented can get a steady stream of CC monthly and other perks.

 

Remove the perks, remove the monthly CC and those same guys would undoubtedly still spend money on the CC market.

 

It's not that F2P buy packs, it's that current "subscribers" would no matter even if subbing wasn't an option.

[Kalfear]

The F2P system (which lets face it is a, quite epic, trial version) is perfectly harsh as is, the Preferred one though? Outright dumb.

 

Right now there are more and more games that are F2P, truly free to play that carry no real limitations to their F2P players, only bonus to their subscribers.

 

Warframe, Tera, Rift, War Thunder, League of Legends and so many more are all examples of what good commercial models look like, lets face it, it's the name "Star Wars" that keeps the game for dying out under the weight of it's F2P/Preferred system...

 

Even the buy to play games like ESO (though the combat system is crap at best) , Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, CS:GO are better served by their model then SWTOR is by it's.

 

 

And yet SW:TOR out produces all of them that you listed financially wise

 

Which brings us back to

 

Why would EA change their pricing plan to a pricing plan that is less successful?

[Ghisallo]

Think about this for a second, League of Legends doesn't even *have* a subscription system yet, playing it you see everyone other players using skins on their champions.

 

Everyone is "F2P" and they still spend money on cosmetic stuff, if sub was straight up removed from SWTOR people would still spend CC to buy packs only difference would be they buy CC first rather then get them as part of a sub.

 

I think you are missing the point actually. LoL can be 100% f2p. technically it is a simpler game with far lower development cost. You don't just say "I am going to make a game like this...lets make it f2p". You say "I want to make a game like this, what financial model will work best." They NEED the subs here. First they are in FAR fewer markets player # wise (they are not in the Asian market and LoL has gone all in over in China.) As such they need not only more money per capita based on development but more money because they have access to fewer customers (SWTOR.com is actually blocked by the Great Firewall of China.)

 

Because of the fewer players they also have to consider the "spikey" cycle of f2p revenue more seriously. The subscriptions give them a consistent source of revenue to weather those issues.

 

tl;dr everygame is different and financial models are not "one size fits all" affairs.

[Ghisallo]

And yet SW:TOR out produces all of them that you listed financially wise

 

Which brings us back to

 

Why would EA change their pricing plan to a pricing plan that is less successful?

 

They don't out perform LoL but everything else they do yes.

[Devrius]

And yet SW:TOR out produces all of them that you listed financially wise

 

Which brings us back to

 

Why would EA change their pricing plan to a pricing plan that is less successful?

 

Because the name "Star Wars" is what generates it's revenues, not the system implemented, a proper commercial system based around a strong preferred system would generate even more benefits.

 

Think of this way, if a great driver is able to win races on a lawnmower against race cars, imagine what he could do on a proper race car.

[DreadtechSavant]

Think about this for a second, League of Legends doesn't even *have* a subscription system yet, playing it you see everyone other players using skins on their champions.

 

Everyone is "F2P" and they still spend money on cosmetic stuff, if sub was straight up removed from SWTOR people would still spend CC to buy packs only difference would be they buy CC first rather then get them as part of a sub.

 

Well then f2p can go play there games instead.

 

I agree some would still buy cc items if the game because totally free but not all would. Why well because I sub to this game its the only mmo I play. If I ended my sub I would move on to other games. At the moment I am paying a sub for a game so might as well get my moneys worth by playing it.

 

There are other factors that a lot of you just skim over, STAR WARS is a francize so the licence free to do a star wars game is probably higher than some other games. That and really you lot really think boiware are so dumb that they would not have looked into the pros & cons of going totally free to play? really? the fact that they have not done so should speak volumes.

 

EDIt

done here because it clear that those for are not going to convince us, any more then we are going to convince you. So just going round and around back and forth. So just pointless now even more so as this topic has come around every 4 to 5 weeks. Same players posting every time.

 

As said pointless because if bioware were going to change this they would have by now.

Edited April 2, 2015 by DreadtechSavant

[Devrius]

Well then f2p can go play there games instead.

 

I agree some would still buy cc items if the game because totally free but not all would. Why well because I sub to this game its the only mmo I play. If I ended my sub I would move on to other games. At the moment I am paying a sub for a game so might as well get my moneys worth by playing it.

 

There are other factors that a lot of you just skim over, STAR WARS is a francize so the licence free to do a star wars game is probably higher than some other games. That and really you lot really think boiware are so dumb that they would not have looked into the pros & cons of going totally free to play? really? the fact that they have not done so should speak volumes.

 

Hi, you most be new here, yes I do think they are that dumb

 

If not they wouldn't have launched as a subscriber only game to begin with and had to scramble for a new system and come up with what we have in a state of panic.

[Ghisallo]

The F2P system (which lets face it is a, quite epic, trial version) is perfectly harsh as is, the Preferred one though? Outright dumb.

 

Right now there are more and more games that are F2P, truly free to play that carry no real limitations to their F2P players, only bonus to their subscribers.

 

Warframe, Tera, Rift, War Thunder, League of Legends and so many more are all examples of what good commercial models look like, lets face it, it's the name "Star Wars" that keeps the game for dying out under the weight of it's F2P/Preferred system...

 

Even the buy to play games like ESO (though the combat system is crap at best) , Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, CS:GO are better served by their model then SWTOR is by it's.

 

First of the games you noted.... only LoL out performs SWTOR in terms of overall revenue... ESO is going to be p2w due to their cash shop and the new champion system... expect it to continue to lose revenue because that WILL piss people off. additionally they are going to have a very similar benefits package for their subscribers. They will get % exp bonuses (which again impact the Champion System) and free access to the DLCs.

 

So with the exception of LoL how can you say these other games are "better served" since they all make less money? I think you are confusing what you see as best serving the "player" with what actually best serves a "company".

 

Your mention of Rift actually made me laugh tbh... Rift's version of f2p is the most money grubbing system I have ever seen and I closed tested that game and tried to con every friend I had into playing it at one time. I still dabble there but every time I go into the store I get nauseous and depressed at how far that game has fallen. Being able to ding 65 and then with cash buy all the gear you need to be able to clear the first 10 man and the first 2 bosses in the 20 man? Grind literally for months or pay money for an equipment slot (imagine having to play here for 3 months OR pay cash to be able to equip both implants.)

[Ghisallo]

Because the name "Star Wars" is what generates it's revenues, not the system implemented, a proper commercial system based around a strong preferred system would generate even more benefits.

 

Think of this way, if a great driver is able to win races on a lawnmower against race cars, imagine what he could do on a proper race car.

 

It seems You personally believe a "true" f2p model is better with no actual data to support it so you are creating "facts" to defend a confirmation bias.

 

Using Rift as an example again... in 2013 they had a WHOPPING 36 million in revenue. SWTOR had 165 million. IP alone is not enough to make up that difference. The difference is SWTOR incentivizes Subscribership better. Why can this be important? Because when the next "great white hype" comes our... WildStar, ESO, whatever... when your f2p cats go there to check it out and stop giving you money... the subscriptions keep ticking. Not only that but a subscription gives a psychological sense of investment...so even if you are check out the other game you are prone to still logging into SWTOR and maybe spending extra money in the cash shop.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Devrius]

First of the games you noted.... only LoL out performs SWTOR in terms of overall revenue... ESO is going to be p2w due to their cash shop and the new champion system... expect it to continue to lose revenue because that WILL piss people off. additionally they are going to have a very similar benefits package for their subscribers. They will get % exp bonuses (which again impact the Champion System) and free access to the DLCs.

 

So with the exception of LoL how can you say these other games are "better served" since they all make less money? I think you are confusing what you see as best serving the "player" with what actually best serves a "company".

 

Your mention of Rift actually made me laugh tbh... Rift's version of f2p is the most money grubbing system I have ever seen and I closed tested that game and tried to con every friend I had into playing it at one time. I still dabble there but every time I go into the store I get nauseous and depressed at how far that game has fallen. Being able to ding 65 and then with cash buy all the gear you need to be able to clear the first 10 man and the first 2 bosses in the 20 man? Grind literally for months or pay money for an equipment slot (imagine having to play here for 3 months OR pay cash to be able to equip both implants.)

 

The commercial system is not why SWTOR outperforms them though, the name "Star Wars" and it's die hard fan base is what does the heavy lifting.

 

If your comment is why EA would never do anything to improve the game for the players I agree, they managed to save the game and decided to call it good enough, if you're saying the players wouldn't be better served by a better system and that revenue might go up if SWTOR no longer was the go to example for "horribly restrictive to new players game" I disagree.

[Devrius]

OMG that is the biggest line of "i got nothin so let me pull something out of my butt" that I have ever seen.

 

And that's the biggest "I have nothing to refute your argument, let's try and switch the game from argument/counter argument to just slinging derogative terms"

[DarthCasus]

Bingo

 

As EA has said themselves (and supplied the info for all to see) F2P players offer up a VERY SMALL amount of financial support to this product.

 

The MASS MAJORITY of Cartel shop sales are done by SUBSCRIBERS, not F2P or Preferred accounts.

 

What this game needs is better design, better development, better support

All with the intention of getting MORE SUBSCRIBERS

 

All F2P really do is use up resources and offer up nothing back in return

 

Because F2P and Preferred never sub, am I right?

 

You always seem to have an axe to grind, have some tea.

 

F2P players always have that possibility of transitioning into a subscriber, believe it or not. F2P also made the game world more livelier, speed up queues and ultimately saved this game from going under. But you'd do your best to forget there is a reason the game went hybrid, wouldn't you?

 

But no, they only take up resources. Nothing more.

[Ghisallo]

The commercial system is not why SWTOR outperforms them though, the name "Star Wars" and it's die hard fan base is what does the heavy lifting.

 

If your comment is why EA would never do anything to improve the game for the players I agree, they managed to save the game and decided to call it good enough, if you're saying the players wouldn't be better served by a better system and that revenue might go up if SWTOR no longer was the go to example for "horribly restrictive to new players game" I disagree.

 

First I responded using some numbers to show your view of the IP being the driving force is a tad exaggerated.

 

Second it seems we look at it from two different ways. To me players are best served by a game that makes enough revenue to justify a decent budget for the production of new content. That means paying and if necessary to get paid you incentivize. I have always felt "you get what you pay for" and if you feel it's not worth paying for then it is clearly something you do not need.

[Ghisallo]

And that's the biggest "I have nothing to refute your argument, let's try and switch the game from argument/counter argument to just slinging derogative terms"

 

First I edited that out to be polite... sorry I didn't do it fast enough. So please accept my apology.

 

I am easily annoyed when I have only slept 3 hours in the last 24 and can't sleep yet because of my schedule tomorrow.

 

Second I have refuted it any number of ways. The problem is you are not thinking like a business does, you are thinking, understandably, like a consumer who saw the word "free" and got caught out when it wasn't. NONE of the games that are actually analogous to SWTOR (Rift and other MMO's to me MOBA's simply do not count) are free... they all have "tricks" to get you to pay and these other games "tricks" simply do not work as well. As a matter of fact I applaud SWTOR because at least they are upfront. They don't say "no traps or tricks" when those things exist. You look at their web site and the benefits and detriments are there for you to see in black and white.

 

A game like this gets a budget. That budget is based on revenue. They lose revenue the budget goes down and the amount and quality of content drops. Thus far this is the ONLY f2p MMORPG that I have played (again not MOBA or CO-OP) that still maintains the same level of consistency that one would expect from a subscription MMO. Every other game I know that transitioned, even a game with the MMO notoriety of EQ2 simply managed to stop the free fall revenue wise and the quality of the developement thee after demonstrates the smaller budget. Here not only did they stop the free fall but they completely reversed the trend.

 

[for games I have played that have transitioned... EQ2, Warhammer AoC, Rift, Aion]

 

That last bit is likely the biggest nail in the coffin of your idea that it is the IP that matters. Not only has SWTOR's revenue increased since the change over but subscription rates have increased as well. Why? because the increased revenue has allowed them to make more content....more content = more people willing to maintain subscriptions. Content is the biggest factor (I will never say IP isn't one at all) and they could only develope the greater content if they had a revenue stream to justify the budget for it. The other games managed to stop the free fall but did not reverse the trends and due to this they still suffer from paired down budgets and skeleton crews that have a clear effect on the content.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[eartharioch]

See the thing is I don't think people signed on to play a BW TOR game that was simply multiplayer. Bioware's metrics say the same. People left for the same reason many left ESO. They came expecting an MMO and found it wasn't one. Here are the rather honest and imo insightful reason Bioware noted, at GDC 2013, SWTOR flopped after launch. (James Ohlen gave the presentation.)

 

You're right -- I signed on to play Kotor 3 -- a BW TOR game that should have been single player. I accepted the MMO part as an optional multiplayer component that I could ignore just like I didn't use the multiplayer in the BG [engine] games. Had the game actually been what MMO players expected, I (and probably lots of others) would have been the ones abandoning the game shortly after launch.

 

So perhaps some people disagree BUT Bioware has decided that their failure, and why people left, was because due to internal issues and an under estimation on content consumption, the game appeared to be a BW TOR game with a group option when they intended to be an MMORPG with a story option. With this philosophy in mind they have built the foundation. They have a greater focus on end game content, FPs and OPs, and also due to becoming the number 4 Multiplayer (revenue wise) in 2013 and likely top ten in 2014 (when you add in SoR revenue still waiting on the financial) they have the budget to speed up the development cycle on this plan.

 

Now maybe some people here think this is the wrong direction. Maybe they want a game like ESO, a single player story game with a group option. That is NOT Bioware's plan though and from the metrics they looked at during the flop, they have the data to back it up.

 

Obviously I disagree, and a lot of the remaining players do as well (check out all the compliments level 60 FPs and OPs are getting -- I can wait a couple of seconds). The "foundation" they have is what they started with at launch -- breaking that up and hoping that the players that stayed with them will stay through the changes and that the players that left will return is a double risk.