Anyone else concerned about the "new" 6th line of the Jedi Code?

[Ghisallo]

okay... incoming there is a new line of the Jedi Code for this game per the Live Stream...

 

"there is no contemplation. there is duty."

 

Why am I concerned? this game is based on the "old" canon. This means that there are Jedi who have decided that there place is to simply contemplate and study the force. Heck one could easily argue that without these Consular Scholars the Order itse;lf would be far less powerful with access to fewer techniques etc. Yet the Jedi Order is apparently going to embrace the idea that such contemplation is "bad" and that duty to the Republic is more important?

 

Now I have always, even with my Consulars (I have 2 one sage and one shadow), seen them through the lense of Bushido... their first calling is indeed to duty. Simply because I play my characters that way does not mean that I feel the entire order need follow that path however.

[tunewalker]

okay... incoming there is a new line of the Jedi Code for this game per the Live Stream...

 

"there is no contemplation. there is duty."

 

Why am I concerned? this game is based on the "old" canon. This means that there are Jedi who have decided that there place is to simply contemplate and study the force. Heck one could easily argue that without these Consular Scholars the Order itse;lf would be far less powerful with access to fewer techniques etc. Yet the Jedi Order is apparently going to embrace the idea that such contemplation is "bad" and that duty to the Republic is more important?

 

Now I have always, even with my Consulars (I have 2 one sage and one shadow), seen them through the lense of Bushido... their first calling is indeed to duty. Simply because I play my characters that way does not mean that I feel the entire order need follow that path however.

 

I dont think its bad YET, it seems to me to be a response to the "failings" of the order during the Mandalorian wars. And its potential "failure to act" when it was needed.

 

Also in later movie canon, and the like we see the jedi clearly very very involved with the Republic, and their duty as "keepers of the peace".

 

While I dont think the line should be "contemplation" there is a sense that Duty needs to be apart of the Jedi Code in some way. To me this seems like an ever evolving Code. To the point when in the end, the words are their, but the "conquer" "honor" and "Duty" lines of how to follow it are truly the more important.

[Senrie]

The Sixth Line is just one unit with a motto, not a change to the Code by the Jedi Order. Edited March 22, 2015 by Senrie

[XantosCledwin]

Before we look to heavily into the new aspect of the code, first I think we need to look at the original five lines of the Jedi Code. If I am remembering correctly, in the game we are first introduced to the code in the following form:

 

There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)(*)

There is no death, there is the Force.

— The Jedi Code, based on the Meditations of Odan-Urr.

 

(*) I can't remember if the fourth line was included or omitted when we were told the code in the game.

 

When looking at the above, the code can ultimately be distilled into the following form:

 

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

 

This was the form that the original Jedi Code took. With that in mind, the "new" line in the Jedi Code would look like the following when looked upon in the original form:

 

Contemplation, yet duty.

 

When looked at in this form, it can be seen that it is not as horrible a thing as it would at first have seemed. Thus the full Jedi Code (as it stands with what has now been revealed) will look something like the following in the original form:

 

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Contemplation, yet duty.

Death, yet the Force.

 

I placed the new line before "Death, yet the Force" because "Death, yet the Force" is a line that has a significant amount of finality to it. I mean, nothing comes after Death, except the Force (usually in the form of Force Apparitions).

 

Source

 

Granted everything I said above comes from Legends sources... unfortunately there are no Disney Canon sources that specifically state what is or is not in the Jedi Code that I am aware of.

Edited March 22, 2015 by XantosCledwin

[Beniboybling]

I didn't see the live stream, but this is what's been said on Dulfy.net.

Introducing a new group of Jedi that is super militaristic, they are called the Sixth Line. There is no contemplation, only duty. Their master is controlled by the Emperor.

So they are a splinter group, whose code does not represent the overall philosophy of the Order.

 

Definitely an interesting concept though, a preference for contemplation over duty (see the Mandalorian Wars) has led to the Jedi Order's downfall in the past, but only because they crossed over into apathy, which is not the same thing.

 

Contemplation is important, and any Jedi who acts without thinking is dumb, and evidently easily manipulated.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Ghisallo]

I didn't see the live stream, but this is what's been said on Dulfy.net.

Introducing a new group of Jedi that is super militaristic, they are called the Sixth Line. There is no contemplation, only duty. Their master is controlled by the Emperor.

So they are a splinter group, whose code does not represent the overall philosophy of the Order.

 

Definitely an interesting concept though, a preference for contemplation over duty (see the Mandalorian Wars) has led to the Jedi Order's downfall in the past, but only because they crossed over into apathy, which is not the same thing.

 

Contemplation is important, and any Jedi who acts without thinking is dumb, and evidently easily manipulated.

 

 

I got the feeling from the Live stream that, due to the war a new line was added, and this group decided to prioritize it over the others. so indeed they are a splinter group, but in essence the Order itself laid the ground work for them to "splinter."

 

Also just to clarify when I was thinking "contemplation" I wasn't think about thinking before acting. I was thinking more like this...

 

Contemplation vs Duty... kiding on the second... (I like cats sue me) rather this...Duty

 

Now as I said don't get me wrong, I think you need both...BUT if the Order itself prioritized the later by inserting it into the code...

 

PS I would argue the Mando wars was not an example of contemplation over duty. rather the Jedi Council at the time saw exactly what could happen. If they acted earlier the war may not have been so bloody but the Revanites proved their fears correct. Some wars can basically force people to the dark side and that is precisely what happened. Wars when they get to a certain point can get out of control and lines end up being crossed.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Senrie]

The codex on them from the PTS:

 

 

 

The Sixth Line

 

There is no contemplation, only duty.

 

It is a declaration more in line with a rank-and-file soldier than a Jedi, and yet it is a guiding principle of the squad known as the Sixth Line. Their commander, Master Surro, is said to have made the phrase her personal mantra as she waged war against the Empire on the front lines of Balmorra, where her unwavering resolve to accomplish whatever her commanding officers asked of her set her apart from other Jedi.

 

Details of the formation of the Sixth Line and how they came to work with SIS Agent Theron Shan are sparse. Scattered reports in recent years do suggest that a group of "Jedi commandos" have been involved in raids and strikes not officially sanctioned by the Republic, though the validity of such reportage is typically seen as unreliable.

 

 

More tidbits:

 

 

Lana Beniko: The Jedi you fought belonged to the Sixth Line. SIS commandos who follow their own addendum to the Jedi Code, hence the name.

 

Both the Jedi Knight and the Jedi Consular say they have no knowledge of them. Saresh didn't know either.

 

 

[Ghisallo]

Thank you... so it's all Theron's fault

[Beniboybling]

PS I would argue the Mando wars was not an example of contemplation over duty. rather the Jedi Council at the time saw exactly what could happen. If they acted earlier the war may not have been so bloody but the Revanites proved their fears correct. Some wars can basically force people to the dark side and that is precisely what happened. Wars when they get to a certain point can get out of control and lines end up being crossed.

But they were not forced, they were coerced, Revan unguided and unrestricted by the Jedi Order was corrupted to the dark side by Sith teachings, and brought his allies into the fold through loyalty and their loss of faith in the Order.

 

The fall of so many Jedi was therefore not a result of the ferocity of the Mandalorian Wars, but as a result of the Order's stubbornness and negligence, much like Anakin, they ironically caused the very thing they sought to prevent.

 

The fact remains though that it is the Jedi Order's duty to protect the Republic, and it is their responsibility to control their emotions, if they can do neither of those then what are they good for? Not much, evidently.

 

Simply put the Jedi were afraid, they were afraid of this unseen threat and they were afraid of the dark side, it goes without saying that a Jedi driven by fear is a Jedi betraying his philosophy. And it was fear that drove them to apathy.

 

If the Jedi have performed their responsibility to the Republic and stayed true - as a unified rather than splintered Order, under the guidance of the Council - to their code, the Mandalorians would have been defeated, and the threat would have passed, then the Jedi and the Republic, as one, could have turned their attention to the perpetrators.

[Ghisallo]

If you need to be restricted by the other members of the order...imo you are not worthy of the order.

 

Restriction and "guides" are for those who have yet to pass the trials. Once you pass them, advice maybe, but the whole point of the trials is to say to are worthy, that you are now truly your own man or woman. If you go sideways its on you.

 

One of my biggest issues with Revan as a character is that he is the poster child of a "victim" society. It wasn't Regan's fault he went sideways, it was every one else's. I will call shenanigans on that idea until I die IRL and fiction.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Beniboybling]

If you need to be restricted by the other members of the order...imo you are not worthy of the order.

 

Restriction and "guides" are for those who have yet to pass the trials. Once you pass them, advice maybe, but the whole point of the trials is to say to are worthy, that you are now truly your own man or woman. If you go sideways its on you.

 

One of my biggest issues with Revan as a character is that he is the poster child of a "victim" society. It wasn't Regan's fault he went sideways, it was every one else's. I will call shenanigans on that idea until I die IRL and fiction.

It doesn't matter, while we can't be sure of that the problem is the Council gave Revan power and independence, allowing him to corrupt himself and his followers unchecked. If the Council had remained a presence they could have prevented that from happening, and Revan would never have been given a position of such authority.

 

It's the responsibility of the Council to watch over their own, a Jedi going rogue under their watch is a gross negligence.

 

EDIT: For example imagine a similar situation in which the PT Jedi Order refused to participate in the Clone Wars, Anakin Skywalker then leaves the Order with a bunch of Jedi and is made Commander-in-Chief, good idea? No.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Ghisallo]

It doesn't matter, while we can't be sure of that the problem is the Council gave Revan power and independence, allowing him to corrupt himself and his followers unchecked. If the Council had remained a presence they could have prevented that from happening, and Revan would never have been given a position of such authority.

 

It's the responsibility of the Council to watch over their own, a Jedi going rogue under their watch is a gross negligence.

 

EDIT: For example imagine a similar situation in which the PT Jedi Order refused to participate in the Clone Wars, Anakin Skywalker then leaves the Order with a bunch of Jedi and is made Commander-in-Chief, good idea? No.

 

Here's the thing though the Order is big on members having some degree of independence. In that era, and even in the Prequel era (untilt the Order chose to get involved) they do not operate like a Para-Military Organization, rather they are more of a Para-Religious organization. So Revan (Anakin, whoever) leaves with a bunch of followers to fight for the Republic. You tell them "if you do this you are no longer in the order" or "you do this without the blessing of the order". In the end, ultimately, if you disobey the order all they can really do is excommunicate you. If the Republic wants to give them the rights and privileged of their military then so be it.

 

They simply aren't your problem anymore...until they cross a line. There are plenty of examples of this...the Jedi say " you shall not do this" and if the people continue the Jedi do not act unless they are Acted against. Hell even though the Masters KNEW Ulic Qel Droma would fall if he tried to infiltrate the dark side...they let him go, heck at one point they order other Jedi to cease their attempts to stop him. Yoda could have stopped Luke from running off to Bespin... I could go one. Dooku publically condemns the Senate, resigns, his brother conveniently dies, he takes the title of Count and forces his nephew and sister-in-law into exile. He then ignores a Summons to present himself before the council to explain himself.

 

The Jedi are very big on "they must follow their destiny" and until the line is crossed they may kick you out or reprimand you but they will not act to stop you directly.

 

We see precisely this with Revan. Yes the reasons are slightly different but in the end they basically said "you are not doing this as part of the Jedi order but we will not stop you either."

 

Now i believe you can definitely argue that if you are an order dedicated to training the most powerful people in the Galaxy you should ride herd over them to keep them in line. That just isn't the Jedi way though.

[SpaceMedafighter]

But they were not forced, they were coerced, Revan unguided and unrestricted by the Jedi Order was corrupted to the dark side by Sith teachings, and brought his allies into the fold through loyalty and their loss of faith in the Order.

 

The fall of so many Jedi was therefore not a result of the ferocity of the Mandalorian Wars, but as a result of the Order's stubbornness and negligence, much like Anakin, they ironically caused the very thing they sought to prevent.

 

The fact remains though that it is the Jedi Order's duty to protect the Republic, and it is their responsibility to control their emotions, if they can do neither of those then what are they good for? Not much, evidently.

 

Simply put the Jedi were afraid, they were afraid of this unseen threat and they were afraid of the dark side, it goes without saying that a Jedi driven by fear is a Jedi betraying his philosophy. And it was fear that drove them to apathy.

 

If the Jedi have performed their responsibility to the Republic and stayed true - as a unified rather than splintered Order, under the guidance of the Council - to their code, the Mandalorians would have been defeated, and the threat would have passed, then the Jedi and the Republic, as one, could have turned their attention to the perpetrators.

 

I have never seen this as fair assessment of the Jedi. When I consider what came of the war with the mandalorians I tend to see their reluctance as the far better course of action. That said, Revan (much like Anakin), of this time, strikes me as someone arrogant who, as is typical, thinks he knows better than everyone else. Revan defeated the Mandalorians yes, but brought about much more and imo much worse.

 

Are the Jedi without guilt? No, I don't think so. Could they have done more to stop Revan? Possibly. Should they?

 

Also, I would not characterize Jedi as trying to control their emotions, and to blame the entire Order for the failings of one or two members, who were welcomed with open arms by the Republic to fight the war they were evidently too incompetent to win.

 

Apathy is not how I would describe the Jedi, and that idea smells of Kreia and her own biases.

Edited March 23, 2015 by SpaceMedafighter

[Ghisallo]

Yeah...its odd how when ever people want to talk about the "Apathy" of the Jedi they raise stuff from Regan's tales. The Jedi aren't apathetic, they simply believe they should only interfere when absolutely necessary. They let Revan go to form the Mercy Corps in part to stop a straight up schism within the Order right then and there. In the end they were proven right BTW. Revan going off put Jedi on the bleeding edge of the dark side and pushed others over the edge. It made them militaristic and in the end Revan saw preemptive action as the right path (I thought the force was for defense...not to attack?). What happens when he decides to be preemptive against the Emperor? He comes back and between him and Malak more damage is done than the Mandos did, even with the Jedi going all in against him with the Republic.

 

The Jedi only go to war in the Age of Ulic Qel Droma, during the Age of Revan and in the time frame of the game because without the Jedi you can't fight the Sith. Even then we see the Jedi who have gone "sideways".