Advanced Prototype - Lacklustre?

[Crooooom]

I decided to try out AP at level 25 (currently 27) after having played Pyro the whole time to see what a new playstyle would bring. Maybe I need some advice on how to improve on this.

 

First off, it seems the speed increase from Pneumatic Boots is non-existent. Sprint is noticeable, but with Sprint off toggling HE cylinder seems to make no difference.

 

When engaging a target I'm guessing you want to throw on Dart followed by RB and RP and Rail before going nuts with Flame Burst and Rapid Shots as needed? I was taking down targets much faster as a Pyro so perhaps this tree is a late-bloomer once you pick up Immolate?

 

Any tips/feedback would be appreciated

[Crooooom]

Back to pyro I guess.

[Pindrgnx]

Back to pyro I guess.

 

Sir, I was thinking of going pyro from AP. If you dont mind, what is the build you are using?

 

Ps- I also hear the AP rotation is very different than Pyro. Check here:

http://www.forcejunkies.com/2011/12/23/the-powertech-compendium/

 

They have a pyro build on there, but I'm not sure if it's one to be judged as the "standard" so thought I'd ask around.

 

EDIT: After going back and reading it, it sounds like the class is cenetered around prototype flamethrower, which I like b/c that pretty much my favorite ability in the whole game "BURN SUCKAS MUWHAHAHAHA!" but can't even put a point into it until around lvl 30, so might want to go pyro until then sir, then try it out if you feel like it after that.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Pindrgnx

[halfhourofpower]

I've played around with all three builds, though I am a vanguard(republic mirror) I find that AP(or tactics in my case) actually does considerably more burst damage then pyro(or assault specialist). Your strongest move in the AP tree is by far flamethrower (pulse cannon) once you get the advanced prototype flamethrower. 50% increased damage is ridiculous and a lot of fun. Though, if you're having trouble my rotation consisted of maintaining retractable blade dot, using rocket punch whenever I could and using rail shot in the same manner. Flame burst was a filler and I wouldn't let my energy cells(heat) get past max regen. The most ESSENTIAL talent skill to making this work though is prototype cylinder ventilation. You need this, desperately. It's too valuable not to have. It's a much needed static heat ventilation. Hope this helped.

[Pindrgnx]

How was it leveling up until about 30 sir? Not sure if I should tough it out or try pyro out.

[halfhourofpower]

How was it leveling up until about 30 sir? Not sure if I should tough it out or try pyro out.

 

Well, until you get retractable blade and prototype cylinder ventilation it's a really boring rotation and unappealing because you can't use rail shot so essentially you have two moves to use and they're really weak at the time.

Edited December 26, 2011 by halfhourofpower

[Pindrgnx]

Hmmm. I may go pyro for awhile then switch back once I can nab goodies then. thx for info Halfhour

[userisok]

I had a Pyro BH, but rerolled on a different server as Advanced Prototype. AP is more bursty. At 19 the rotation is basically Explosive Dart, Rocket Punch, Rail Shot when it prods, and Multi Shot. Death From Above whenever I can and Flamethrower if more than one mob. Works wonders in PvP too. Pyro would seemingly be more viable until 30 or so, but AP is more fun to play and that is the reason why we are here afterall.

[userisok]

I had a Pyro BH, but rerolled on a different server as Advanced Prototype. AP is more bursty. At 19 the rotation is basically Explosive Dart, Rocket Punch, Rail Shot when it prods, and Multi Shot. Death From Above whenever I can and Flamethrower if more than one mob. Works wonders in PvP too. Pyro would seemingly be more viable until 30 or so, but AP is more fun to play and that is the reason why we are here afterall.

[zerovex]

Well, until you get retractable blade and prototype cylinder ventilation it's a really boring rotation and unappealing because you can't use rail shot so essentially you have two moves to use and they're really weak at the time.

You can have Mako proc rail shots for you till you get RB. She has a bleed shot.

[Crooooom]

Sir, I was thinking of going pyro from AP. If you dont mind, what is the build you are using?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301ZZfhrbzG.1

 

The idea is to set something on fire (usually using Flame Burst, otherwise Incendiary Grenade if it's a player at range/has a lot of health) and then Rail Shot. Afterwards you want to be using Rocket Punch and Flame Burst to get yourself FREE HEAT VENTING RAILS that ignore 30% of the target's armour. You can tweak it a bit if you want even harder hitting rails, dropping the 2 points in Rapid Venting and work on Puncture from the AP tree before resuming Pyro. The core of Pyro is Rail Shot. I PvP a lot so I get good use out of Gyroscopic Alignment Jets.

[Mhak]

I was disappointed with AP too.

 

I'm mostly a ST PT but I played both DPS trees through many higher level FPs and warzones. My conclusion was that Pyro easily (and I mean EASILY) out-damages AP in both PvE and PvP. Not even a close contest, I'd say maybe 30% less DPS on average from AP.

 

What AP did have going for it was mobility in PvP and a much easier time managing heat both in PvE and PvP. It was easier to play AP because of this, but by no means more effective. Just...easier. I kill people silly-fast as Pyrotech rotating FBs, RSs and RPs, most of those skills by the way are re-proccing CGC which crits for about 500 at mid-40s. That means a majority of your skills in your rotation just do a flat extra 200-500 damage, all the time. I kill people slower as AP but am harder to control and almost never have to worry about overheating in PvP because the fights are so fast and targets change so much.

 

Conclusion: Pyrotech takes much more focus to manage heat, especially in PvP, but also rewards you with significantly more damage on target.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Mhak

[Guurzak]

There are only 2 talents in AP that require the HE Cylinder. If you skipped those you could easily do an Ion-based AP build, and talent up the Ion cylinder with a snare and an autoproc in the Shield tree. Might be an interesting way to play the AP tree and also get Guard and shields. Edited December 26, 2011 by Guurzak

[Mhak]

There are only 2 talents in AP that require the HE Cylinder. If you skipped those you could easily do an Ion-based AP build, and talent up the Ion cylinder with a snare and an autoproc in the Shield tree. Might be an interesting way to play the AP tree and also get Guard and shields.

 

Not feasible. Each tree has their own brand of heat management. AP's method is an extra 8 heat dissipated per 6 seconds while HEGC is active. Shield Tech's brand is by dissipating 6 heat on blocks 50% of the time, every few seconds.

 

If you forgo both of those methods, you will have terrible heat management and be overheated constantly. If you're using IGC, you *need* to spec high enough into that tree to vent heat on blocks. If you're using HEGC, you *need* to be venting an extra 8 heat every 6 seconds. Hybridization is not feasible because the majority of the time you'd be running around spamming Rapid Shots waiting for your heat to get low enough to start hurting people again and be largely useless.

 

The point of going up a DPS tree is to be able to kill people. If you gimp yourself by drastically lowering your DPS in order to prevent overheating because you don't have any of the heat management talents, then that sort of defeats the purpose.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Mhak

[Agroovesak]

I'm actually trying the ion AP style right now. I was having absolutely massive heat problems until just now when I hit 40 and got Immolate. Now the lower heat cost of immolate and 100% free rocket punch procs keep my heat down quite nicely. I imagine I am losing some damage from not being able to use an extra FB every 12 seconds but meh. I also didn't take the 50% Flamethrower skill though since I don't find myself using FT much if at all in pvp. I might try a full on HEC AP build at some other point since Hydraulic is nuts in huttball, but respecs are a ton and this spec gives me good tanking power while still being fast killing speed.

[Mhak]

Your math is seriously flawed. The heat management you lose goes far beyond 1 FB per 12 seconds. You didn't factor into the equation the fact that your resource pool is gated or the fact that PCV dissipates heat regardless of that, both of which factor into far more damaging abilities that expend heat than 1 FB per 12 seconds.

 

You reach the first gate, and subsequently -1 hps, very quickly as a PT of any spec. It takes only 40 heat to get there, and that's when DPS loss starts and only gets worse, so ideally you always want to dance around in the 40- heat area. This gives you a small window in which to operate at prime capacity.

 

8 heat is 20% of that small window of 40 heat you have. If your goal is to play at level that avoids you overheating during the fight, as it should be for every BH in every situation unless Vent Heat is ready to use and you plan to use it, then Prototype Cylinder Ventilation essentially regains you 20% of your resources every 6 seconds. Furthermore, if you *do* expend yourself past that 40 heat limit, the heat dissipation of PCV occurs at the full rate regardless of current heat level allowing for a much longer sustained fight even while you *are* overheating.

 

You're also losing a massive amount of Tech Power while using a shield instead of a generator.

 

tl;dr - It's objective to say that your DPS is substantially lower than if you were spec'd for PCV and using it, far more than "1 FB per 12 seconds." You are sacrificing a great deal of DPS from multiple sources only to make you slightly more survivable but nowhere near as tanky as an actual tank. Tanks can't DPS as much as you and AP builds can't take quite as much damage as you, but you're significantly less effective them both of them at their respective jobs.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Mhak

[Crooooom]

So was it just a glitch for me when I got no visible run speed increase? Is it supposed to be half the boost that Sprint gives?

 

Does AP start to feel more powerful once you get your top tier skill much in the same way ST gets good after Jet Charge?

 

It just doesn't seem to compare to Pyro at this stage unless I'm doing it wrong =\

[Agroovesak]

Regardless of which cylinder you use it does get significantly better with the end talent. Immo really brings the heat management and rotation together as well as giving you an extra, hard hitting attack.

 

I still think it is inferior to pyro for anything but running a huttball though. I look at it like this:

 

Shield = Hella tanky

AP = Tanky dps

Pyro = hella dps

 

You get a lot more survival, especially 1vMany, out of AP generally.

[hipgnosis]

I, too, would like someone to confirm the 15% speed increase from the AP tree. It's really hard for me to notice the difference. (The 8 second speed burst w/ anti-cc further up the tree seems underwhelming as well.) Maybe it's just me. Edited December 28, 2011 by hipgnosis

[Crooooom]

I, too, would like someone to confirm the 15% speed increase from the AP tree. It's really hard for me to notice the difference.

 

A friend of mine plays a Sentinel and says the identical talent of 15% passive movement speed while in Ataru form is exactly like half the speed of sprint. So it must be bugged for us since we would *definitely* notice that.

[rlpirate]

biggest dissapointment for me was hydraulic override. I was thinking that it would be the answer to the stun locking agents/smugg but it wasnt.

[hipgnosis]

A friend of mine plays a Sentinel and says the identical talent of 15% passive movement speed while in Ataru form is exactly like half the speed of sprint. So it must be bugged for us since we would *definitely* notice that.

 

That's not good news. Guess it's ST until this gets fixed. Or maybe we're both crazy?

[hipgnosis]

biggest dissapointment for me was hydraulic override. I was thinking that it would be the answer to the stun locking agents/smugg but it wasnt.

 

With you on this one. This talent along with the 15% speed with hydraulic cylinder were two of the biggest draws of this tree for me.

Edited December 30, 2011 by hipgnosis

[chainsawsamurai]

biggest dissapointment for me was hydraulic override. I was thinking that it would be the answer to the stun locking agents/smugg but it wasnt.

 

The best thing in Adv Proto to save you from that is Stabilized Armor. It isn't going to save you either, but it has a better shot at it.

 

I'm pretty disappointed with Adv Proto as well. It lacks good mobility and lacks a snare. The talents they give you to make up for it don't make up for it.

 

The spec could also use a bit more synergy. You get Retractable Blade but all it does is proc Rail Shots. There's no talent for extra damage to bleeding targets or any further synergy than a crit Rail Shot once in a while -- tied to an ability you don't want to spam. It doesn't do for Adv Proto half of what Incin Missile does for Pyro. I love the animation, I just wish it was more useful. Also I wish the damage was front-loaded so you had a reason to see that Animation more and to mark a bigger difference between Ret Blade and Incin Missile.

 

As it stands Incin Missile and Ret Blade are practically the same talent. Incin Missile can be used at range, doesn't have a Kinetic Damage component it so it should do better overall damage, has better talents and bonuses tied to it, and really isn't that much less Heat efficient to make a difference. The only thing Ret Blade has going for it is the Animation.

 

Prototype Flamethrower is great, but using it in PvP is a bit tedious.

 

I keep hearing people that are in love with Adv Proto but I really don't see it. Without the mobility of Jet Charge, Pyrotech is the only tree that looks even remotely worth playing again.

[Teacosy]

playing advanced prototype is like entering a gunfight with a knife.

 

its not smart