The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

[tunewalker]

If Palpatine defeated Yoda in ROTS because Yoda couldn't hold onto the edge after the blast since he was already next to it unlike Palpatine, I don't know what to say. The blast affected Palpatine more and sent him further than Yoda and he was in pain. It's just the circumstances that saved him. If there weren't troopers nearby Yoda would continue to fight and ultimately kill him but it appears there wasn't even enough time for him to even climb back there.

 

Throughout the fight we always had seen Palpatine in fear and pain. He tried to run away from the fight and he ran away from lightsaber fight.

 

Palpatine had unlimited time and nearby support at his back and both he and Yoda knew it. That's why Yoda said failed I have, since he couldn't kill him in time. After the fall it became almost impossible for him to reach and kill Palpatine and the troopers at the same time.

 

Despite there weren't even minor injuries you chose a winner because of a simple fall due to circusmtances, then Vader would kill both Yoda and Sidious at the same time. He "killed" ROTJ Sidious in a few secs for god's sake

 

Edit: BTW I wouldn't consider an almost 900-year old mortal at his prime.

 

The diffference there is one acknowledged the other as an enemy, the other did not.

 

They faced each other and they fought. Palpatine didnt seem to out of sink with things... as far as I could tell they flew the SAME distance. that's why there was no railing for Yoda to grab on to. Palpatines retreats were plenty strategic, and as you said, strategy is apart of power. He is the one that WALKED forward while Yoda was stuck in place, Yoda had dropped his saber and if he tried to move he would lose concentration and be fried. Palpatine putting himself in a better position is Tactics.

 

 

Vader's win however was a desperate grab in the back.... which ultimately KILLS Vader.... there is no winner in that scenario. He basically stabs him in the back.. taking the advantage... and is STILL killed for his efforts. So Sidious> Vader right there I mean all situations against you and you STILL kill the other guy in a matter of seconds.....

 

to the edit, I usually dont either, but again have we seen him younger? Cant speculate on what he was, only on what is....

[Ghisallo]

I will grant Tune the Vader bit. I think I read somewhere once that the initial view, of Palpatine was that Vader was rising and coming to him like a loyal servant to his master and he was MASSIVELY surprise when Vader picked him up to toss him down the shaft. So add the surprise, Vader's personal force power and the fact that Vader's cybernetics provided some resistance to "typical" force lightning and he can push through what Luke can not.

 

That said...as far as the distance the screenplay specifically states Yoda had less distance to the edge and is lighter. I think the handle was added more as a "visual" guide as accounting for Yoda's weight is hard to do visually in such a scene, but the point is, regardless if it is distance + weight or handle... Murphy and not the force feat itself saw Yoda fall from the platform.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Ghisallo

[mineo-mania]

That's speculation. There's many possible speculations one could make. You could also argue that Talzin wasn't taking Windu seriously. How so? Talzin never fought him before. She had no reason to take him seriously. She also didn't bother engaging him in a manner that she specializes in. That would actually be based on fact. Truth is we have seen Windu try to end fights as quickly as possible. She was going to engage regardless. She made that clear by phasing in a blade. After Windu broke the first saber lock he could have backed off there. He didn't. He tried to attack her again which once more didn't even make her move back a step.

 

These are the facts with zero speculation.

 

1) Windu is an offensive fighter who has proven in the past that he aims to end fights as quickly as possible.

 

2) Windu prefers to press the advantage. He's very offensive oriented. So are his students and contemporaries.

 

3) Windu tried to press the advantage not once but twice.

 

4) Windu was the first and only one to end up falling back.

 

5) Windu is a saber specialist who has defeated Sidious

 

6) Talzin does not specialize in using a sword. It is not her strongest skill-set.

 

7) Windu took shelter from her attack

 

There is no reason we should believe that Windu is a match for Talzin. In none of the above facts does Windu display an advantage. You can come up with speculation for this or that but in the end the fact is Windu did not have any edge over Talzin. You can't reasonably make the argument that Windu is more powerful than her or could have taken her in a straight fight. There's no evidence that can lead one to this conclusion logically.

 

Do you remember Mace Windu's fight with Jango Fett, he ran away from him for a brief instant then too, but eventually killed him using strategy, not only an offensive fighting style. And you could never say that Jango was more powerful than Mace. Just because thats his main fighting style doesnt meant thats all he does. Being the second in command in the jedi council means you must be proficient in every fighting style and use your cleverness and cunning before aggression.

[Rhyltran]

Do you remember Mace Windu's fight with Jango Fett, he ran away from him for a brief instant then too, but eventually killed him using strategy, not only an offensive fighting style. And you could never say that Jango was more powerful than Mace. Just because thats his main fighting style doesnt meant thats all he does. Being the second in command in the jedi council means you must be proficient in every fighting style and use your cleverness and cunning before aggression.

 

He "Ran away" from him because he was blasted out of surprise by fire. This reinforces my point. He bailed because he was caught off guard and had to drop off in order to avoid the fire. This isn't the same as his fight with Talzin. He strikes at her first. Not the other way around. Then when he breaks for the saber lock he attacks her again which she easily parries. Then she attacks and he quickly falls back.

 

It's smart to fall back if you're surprised. He had to drop off in order to deal with part of his robe which was already lit on fire. If he stayed up there he'd have been in a terrible position.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghisallo]

He "Ran away" from him because he was blasted out of surprise by fire. This reinforces my point. He bailed because he was caught off guard and had to drop off in order to avoid the fire. This isn't the same as his fight with Talzin. He strikes at her first. Not the other way around. Then when he breaks for the saber lock he attacks her again which she easily parries. Then she attacks and he quickly falls back.

 

It's smart to fall back if you're surprised. He had to drop off in order to deal with part of his robe which was already lit on fire. If he stayed up there he'd have been in a terrible position.

 

Rhyltan I hate to say this... usually you seem quite quite reasonable but you are ionore the ENTIRE context of the fight... why they are there, what is said between mace and Jar-Jar (indicating the actual purpose of the fight) etc.

 

Your idea only make sense if Mace is someone who is all out offensive... he isn't that. Mace is a Warrior Born. That means he is in it to WIN the battle...there is a difference. The sword fight with Talz is basically a sideshow because that is not what will bring final victory. Stop thinking/portraying him as a berserker/idiot please because that is how you are portraying him and that is simply not his character in the least.

 

If he stayed up there Jar-Jar would not have been able to accomplish the mission he assigned him Seriously... look at how close they are to the occulus and the queen when they start. If you can honestly tell me that jar-Jar could have pulled off his assigned mission without Mace retreating to give jar-Jar room then I REALLY need to recommend an eye doctor to ya.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rhyltran]

Rhyltan I hate to say this... usually you seem quite quite reasonable but you are ionore the ENTIRE context of the fight... why they are there, what is said between mace and Jar-Jar (indicating the actual purpose of the fight) etc.

 

Your idea only make sense if Mace is someone who is all out offensive... he isn't that. Mace is a Warrior Born. That means he is in it to WIN the battle...there is a difference. The sword fight with Talz is basically a sideshow because that is not what will bring final victory. Stop thinking/portraying him as a berserker/idiot please because that is how you are portraying him and that is simply not his character in the least.

 

I'm not arguing that. I'm showing the other poster why the two aren't comparable. Honestly there's no reason to believe he stood any chance against Talzin at all regardless if he was trying to buy time or not. I know he's not stupid and I know he's trying to buy time. My argument has always been that he couldn't have won any other way. There's a reason the story was designed so that he would buy time long enough for Jar Jar to interrupt the ritual. It was integral to the story.

 

If Mace was a match for Talzin they could have easily made it an epic fight where Mace eventually overcame Talzin. They didn't. There's tropes on this. Talzin was a very powerful Force User that Mace had no hope of reasonably defeating. Knowing this he engaged her in battle in order to buy time so that Jar Jar could complete the ritual. There's evidence towards him being no match for Talzin.

 

Dooku in many aspects is considered to be a rival to Windu. This isn't just in the novels. This is confirmed even in the clone wars t.v. series. Dooku was completely DOMINATED by Talzin when she went all out. Dooku was able to hold his own against Yoda during the clone wars movie. He has held his own against some of the greatest Jedi and has defeated Obi Wan and Anakin two versus one multiple times.

 

The Sons of Dathomir comic is Canon. It took a combination of Dooku and Sidious to even bring Talzin down. There's no reason to believe Windu could have won that fight. There is no evidence for this. Dooku isn't even a blip on Talzin's radar as a threat. He's mere fodder in comparison. Sidious needed Dooku's help bringing her down.

 

Ghiasallo. There's a reason the writers portrayed that scene the way they did. That was what was needed in order for Talzin to be defeated. The only chance they had to defeat her was for Jar Jar to work with Mace. Mace bought him the time he needed for Talzin to be defeated. If it wasn't for that she wouldn't have been.

 

Even then in the established Canon. Talzin is the only one to be dispersed like that and then return from "Being destroyed." Not Plagueis. Not Sidious. Nobody in established Canon has come back from being "dispersed." This is why I argue in the disney Canon Talzin was more powerful than Yoda or Sidious.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghisallo]

My point is that in a straight up lightsaber fight in "the octagon" he would win...

 

The problem when we look at the generic "force ussr" is we know jack crap really about Talzin's force powers....what is spirit ichor? How much of her abilities come from ritual and devices? (That glorified voodoo doll she used on Dooku?) Talzin dies being a giant cypher in my, admittedly, anal retentive opinion.

 

If it was my list she wouldn't even be here. Not because I think/know she is weaker but because there are just too many damn "????" About what she can and can not do in "the heat of the moment" and that to me is the measure of power...not what you can do with adequate time and prep.

 

Heck she INSISTS that she uses magick... Only the force users that are now basically proven they misunderstand the force itself (canon...Jedi think magic is a lie...they also think balance = destruction of dark BUT father and Lucas in the TCW comments say different) so she might even not be a force user for goodness sake we have NO CLUE at this point where any of this is going.

 

So I stick to what we can clearly define

 

Make sense? If not ask questions and I will clarify. I have had 2 hours sleep in 29 hours thanks to work. So trying to get my point across while chilling at the same time, sorry.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rhyltran]

My point is that in a straight up lightsaber fight in "the octagon" he would win...

 

The problem when we look at the generic "force ussr" is we know jack crap really about Talzin's force powers....what is spirit ichor? How much of her abilities come from ritual and devices? (That glorified voodoo doll she used on Dooku?) Talzin dies being a giant cypher in my, admittedly, anal retentive opinion.

 

If it was my list she wouldn't even be here. Not because I think/know she is weaker but because there are just too many damn "????" About what she can and can not do in "the heat of the moment" and that to me is the measure of power...not what you can do with adequate time and prep.

 

Heck she INSISTS that she uses magick... Only the force users that are now basically proven they misunderstand the force itself (canon...Jedi think magic is a lie...they also think balance = destruction of dark BUT father and Lucas in the TCW comments say different) so she might even not be a force user for goodness sake we have NO CLUE at this point where any of this is going.

 

So I stick to what we can clearly define

 

Make sense?

 

Not talking about the voodoo doll she used on dooku. I'm talking about the fight in Sons of Dathomir. She didn't have prep in that. In fact, Sidious and Dooku had the jump on her. That was the entire point. In fact, Sidious said they had to get her unprepared. She uses the force. She just calls it magic. She also views the Son and Daughter as deities. Channeling both the "Winged Goddess" and the "Fanged Bat" which, again, are the sons and daughter.

 

I disagree that Windu could defeat her in a straight up fight. We have no reason to believe this. There's no evidence that Windu could take her in a saber fight. Sidious and Dooku fought her in a weakened state and Sidious met her "Green Lightning" with his force lightning and yelled for Dooku to help. Also I was wrong. Just looked at the comic. It was Dooku, Sidious, and Grievous. While Sidious and Dooku held her lightning at bay combined she was then stabbed by Grievous.

 

So there you have it. Unprepared and caught off guard in a weakened state it took all three of them to bring her down.

 

In Disney Canon she can..

 

Create objects from nothing. Form things with the force. Teleport. Switch from a corporeal to a non-corporeal state and back again. Completely mind dominate Dooku. Possessed Dooku and her lightning was more powerful than Sidious' lightning. Which is what he was known for. She was able to fight (At least) on par with Windu. The main reason she wasn't on number one spots before was because of the EU. Remove the EU from the equation and Talzin is ridiculous.

 

You can argue "Not clearly define" but fact is she took on Dooku, Grievous, and Sidious head on.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghisallo]

I edited my post sorry... In the edit like I said hazy a bit because of exhaustion. Maybe it is actually magick. With all the stuff going on we don't even know anymore. That said I would argue that Mace can kick Sidious' bit just saber on saber based on new canon so that single fight says little.

[Rhyltran]

I edited my post sorry... In the edit like I said hazy a bit because of exhaustion. Maybe it is actually magick. With all the stuff going on we don't even know anymore. That said I would argue that Mace can kick Sidious' bit just saber on saber based on new canon so that single fight says little.

 

I'm just pointing out that it took Sidious, Dooku, and Grievous to kill Talzin. Talzin if we just go by Disney Canon and ignore everything else is clearly top tier level. We do know Windu had trouble with Sidious lightning and blocking it. The combined might with Dooku and Sidious? It's incredible that Talzin was able to hold it.

[Ghisallo]

Yes but to me a light saber duel is different (in the sidious v mace thing). I always called it at the end bit... that mace brought a knife to a lightning fight. In essence I think Sidious over estimated his light saber skills v Mace to start, basically arrogance and then by circumstance reverted to his strength...lightning.

 

So with that in mind....here I am saying.... Mace better swordman/tactician... Talzin? We can't even call her a force weilder at this point since very reference/baseline we used to determine that is POOF. So she is irrelevant to a "Force wielder" discussion.

 

Regardless bedtime...wife's B-day when the sun come up. Gnite

Edited March 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rhyltran]

Yes but to me a light saber duel is different (in the sidious v mace thing). I always called it at the end bit... that mace brought a knife to a lightning fight. In essence I think Sidious over estimated his light saber skills v Mace to start, basically arrogance and then by circumstance reverted to his strength...lightning.

 

So with that in mind....here I am saying.... Mace better swordman/tactician... Talzin? We can't even call her a force weilder at this point since very reference/baseline we used to determine that is POOF. So she is irrelevant to a "Force wielder" discussion.

 

Regardless bedtime...wife's B-day when the sun come up. Gnite

 

We have no reason to believe that what she is doing isn't using the force. It's ridiculous. She claims she channels the winged goddess and the fanged bat. This is where she gets her power. The fanged bat is the form the son takes. He's a manifestation of the dark side. He represents the dark side of the force. The winged goddess is the daughter who represents the light side of the force. This is where she claims she gets her powers from. She is drawing on the force.

 

Just because she calls it magic doesn't mean it's magic. The witches are very tribal. They are very primitive compared to the rest of the galaxy. It's much like when people in real life used to call science, medicine, and chemistry magic. It's no different here.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Rhyltran

[The_Anf]

For draft purposes, here's my rough list and the explanation I wrote in an another thread.

 

1. Yoda

2. Mace Windu

3. Sheev Palpatine

4. Darth Vader

5. Obi-Wan Kenobi

6. Count Dooku

7. Luke Skywalker

8. Darth Maul

9. Qui-Gon Jinn

10. Savage Opress

?. Darth Plagueis

?. Darth Bane

 

 

 

 

 

Nominees for the Most Powerful Force User in the Galaxy

1. Yoda, Mace Windu, Sheev Palpatine, Darth Vader, Mother Talzin

 

For me where the whole "cannon" debate breaks down is when the when the canon sources start pulling from the stuff they consider not cannon...for example you have Darth Bane on this list who is never mentioned in a movie...and has a 30 second appearence in TCW, but what he creates (rule of two) is cited in the movie and for me that brings the Bane books into the canon, however not as authoratative as the main books but as a supplement to them.

 

Unfortunatly for me someone can't just tell me that all of XXXX never happened and only YYYYY happened if YYYYY is consistently using the material created in XXXXX.

 

Mr Lucas should have not allowed things to be produced in his universe if he wanted complete control of it.

[Ghisallo]

We have no reason to believe that what she is doing isn't using the force. It's ridiculous. She claims she channels the winged goddess and the fanged bat. This is where she gets her power. The fanged bat is the form the son takes. He's a manifestation of the dark side. He represents the dark side of the force. The winged goddess is the daughter who represents the light side of the force. This is where she claims she gets her powers from. She is drawing on the force.

 

Just because she calls it magic doesn't mean it's magic. The witches are very tribal. They are very primitive compared to the rest of the galaxy. It's much like when people in real life used to call science, medicine, and chemistry magic. It's no different here.

 

Of course we have a reason... we always have had a reason because she says so. It's no less of an assumption to assume she is no different than any other force user. So we are left with possibilities....

 

 

1. The only reason we have to say it is not is because the jedi say so. Thing is the Jedi were wrong about the prophesy and so many other things. They are not infallible. We don't know what the hell Spirit Ichor is... people just say "oh it must be some aspect of the force"...

 

 

2. Also it could well indeed be that she channels the power of the two directly. Meaning this. If the Daugher stayed dead then she could not draw on what we would refer to as the light side of the force. However the Daughter dying would not effect the "typical force user."

 

3 Or it could be that they use the force but instead of using simply "the will" they have learned to focus that through verbal, somantic, focus, material and ritual components.

 

We simply can not qualify the source of her power without a clear Canon source.

 

I mean look at the "reboot" thread.

 

Some eople were trying to say "hey look she can disintegrate and reform rocks.... she is powerful." Then someone pointed out that even her underlings can do it. So either all of the Sisters are more powerful than other Jedi OR it is simply the SW version of an "enchanted door" that once you know the trick you can open.

 

Then there is the spirit ichor itself. People were ignoring what it was until I pushed the issue. All the lore says is that the winged goddess provides it. Everyone was treating it like an actual substance until I <gasp> applied logic to it. If it is indeed a substance then it is likely going to be limited in some fashion such as limited to their planet (as far as I remember we never see ichor feats off world.) So once off planet they would be less powerful. If this was not the case, I asked, how can we say that Orders of force users that have been around for over 30 millennia had no clue about it?

 

The answer... suddenly it simply became an aspect of the force that took another shape due to their methods

 

They IGNORED the following problem though. If it is simply an aspect of the force then does that not mean that she is more powerful than all because she can simply make things out of nothing using an aspect of the force...but then since the rest of the Sisters can also manipulate it, they are ALL more powerful than every other force wielder in Canon.

 

When you stop looking at the feats simply as entertainment. and then try to qualify them logically for the purposes of

a rating system LOTS of holes, inconsistencies and questions start being seen. Many of these issues can only be solved via assumption and assumption invites subjective interpretation. Unless you want to ignore all this, not carry the trains of thought to their conclusions with logical consistency, and start with subjectivity from the beginning. The minute you bring subjectivity into it, whether you like it or not you have at least introduced an element of "popularity contest" to the exercise and do we really need threads that go on for hundreds of pages about that kinda stuff?

[Ghisallo]

For me where the whole "cannon" debate breaks down is when the when the canon sources start pulling from the stuff they consider not cannon...for example you have Darth Bane on this list who is never mentioned in a movie...and has a 30 second appearence in TCW, but what he creates (rule of two) is cited in the movie and for me that brings the Bane books into the canon, however not as authoratative as the main books but as a supplement to them.

 

Unfortunatly for me someone can't just tell me that all of XXXX never happened and only YYYYY happened if YYYYY is consistently using the material created in XXXXX.

 

Mr Lucas should have not allowed things to be produced in his universe if he wanted complete control of it.

 

Exactly on the last point... thing is this was his philosophy... HE DIDN'T CARE. He came right out and said he never read any of the books and the only thing that mattered to him was his movies and even there he changed his own Canon multiple times then retconned the movies with his "remastered" editions.

 

The EU as far as he was concerned served only 2 purposes... 1 to make him an obscene amount of money off of the royalties. 2. to keep the IP in the public eye so that he would have a sizeable and active fan base for any new movies he may later chose to make. Thats it.

[Rhyltran]

Of course we have a reason... we always have had a reason because she says so. It's no less of an assumption to assume she is no different than any other force user. So we are left with possibilities....

 

 

1. The only reason we have to say it is not is because the jedi say so. Thing is the Jedi were wrong about the prophesy and so many other things. They are not infallible. We don't know what the hell Spirit Ichor is... people just say "oh it must be some aspect of the force"...

 

 

2. Also it could well indeed be that she channels the power of the two directly. Meaning this. If the Daugher stayed dead then she could not draw on what we would refer to as the light side of the force. However the Daughter dying would not effect the "typical force user."

 

3 Or it could be that they use the force but instead of using simply "the will" they have learned to focus that through verbal, somantic, focus, material and ritual components.

 

We simply can not qualify the source of her power without a clear Canon source.

 

I mean look at the "reboot" thread.

 

Some eople were trying to say "hey look she can disintegrate and reform rocks.... she is powerful." Then someone pointed out that even her underlings can do it. So either all of the Sisters are more powerful than other Jedi OR it is simply the SW version of an "enchanted door" that once you know the trick you can open.

 

Then there is the spirit ichor itself. People were ignoring what it was until I pushed the issue. All the lore says is that the winged goddess provides it. Everyone was treating it like an actual substance until I <gasp> applied logic to it. If it is indeed a substance then it is likely going to be limited in some fashion such as limited to their planet (as far as I remember we never see ichor feats off world.) So once off planet they would be less powerful. If this was not the case, I asked, how can we say that Orders of force users that have been around for over 30 millennia had no clue about it?

 

The answer... suddenly it simply became an aspect of the force that took another shape due to their methods

 

They IGNORED the following problem though. If it is simply an aspect of the force then does that not mean that she is more powerful than all because she can simply make things out of nothing using an aspect of the force...but then since the rest of the Sisters can also manipulate it, they are ALL more powerful than every other force wielder in Canon.

 

When you stop looking at the feats simply as entertainment. and then try to qualify them logically for the purposes of

a rating system LOTS of holes, inconsistencies and questions start being seen. Many of these issues can only be solved via assumption and assumption invites subjective interpretation. Unless you want to ignore all this, not carry the trains of thought to their conclusions with logical consistency, and start with subjectivity from the beginning. The minute you bring subjectivity into it, whether you like it or not you have at least introduced an element of "popularity contest" to the exercise and do we really need threads that go on for hundreds of pages about that kinda stuff?

 

I'm talking about raw power. She was also described as a force user even in the comic that she appeared in. She is a force user. None of the nighsisters even showed remotely close to what she was capable of. None of them could do the green lightning. Put up barriers or anything else. The other nightsisters haven't shown anything like what Talzin can accomplish.

 

Don't forget that Talzin called the Winged Goddess and the Fanged Bat gods and goddesses. We know they're not. She also believed that everything came from them. This is also not true. The Jedi might have misinterpreted the prophecy but Talzin is off base on quite a few things. She fought Windu on Bardotta where she not only used her green lightning but also conjured a weapon out of spirit ichor. This proves she doesn't need to be on Dathomir in order to use her abilities. There is no evidence that she was weakened in her fight with Mace Windu.

 

This is a thread trying to quantify how powerful some force users are. If you're not into threads because it's based on people's opinions and interpretations then why bother trying to participate or derail them? You're making it clear that you have no interest in debating on who is stronger than who. You don't even like it. Your way of arguing is also flawed.

 

In Star Wars we know the force exists. We were also told that the force permeates everything. That it surrounds everyone and binds the galaxy together. Creating objects with the force shouldn't be out of the question. We also know ritual "magic" exists even amongst the Sith. In the clone wars t.v. series Sidious uses a few rituals himself . Rituals are very real. Talzin uses rituals. Sith uses rituals. You claim Talzin may not be a force user. I say prove it.

 

Let's put it this way. In any kind of debate, especially if you want to debate logically or even scientifically, you need to remove speculation. This doesn't mean throw everything out that we're not sure of. That isn't how it works. What that means is we know the force exists. Unless you can prove that there is something else other than the force then it's best to assume that what Talzin is doing is using the force. Just because she claims it's magic doesn't provide proof that it's magic. It doesn't matter if some people would believe her. That's irrelevant. Until we know otherwise it's the force.

 

Likewise you speculate that she might be weaker if not on her world. Not able to do certain things she's done there elsewhere. The series has made no implications of such. You can't pull arguments out of nowhere and use them in this manner. It doesn't work that way Ghisallo.

 

Talzin is a force user.

 

As for the fanged bat and winged goddess? That's because she believes they ARE the Light and Dark Side. When she draws on the dark side she calls it the fanged bat. To her that's what the dark side is. She doesn't know that the two sides are independent of the son and daughter. That they are merely aspects. After they died it didn't affect her or the nightsisters powers at all.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

Guys, Mother Talzin says that she is a Force User:

 

I am not a natural Force wielder like the Jedi or Sith. I use dark magic to achieve power.

 

Not a natural Force wielder = An unnatural Force wielder i.e. Mother Talzin is a Force wielder.

 

On top of that, Darth Sidious in The Book of Sith refers to the Nightsisters as a "dark side group" who we know were a splinter group from the Witches of Dathomir, founded by a Jedi Knight. Finally Talzin herself notes:

There is no need to separate what they call the living Force from the unifying Force. Both are manifestations of the Twin Deities ... What the Jedi call the dark side, the Nightsisters know to be the essence of life.

 

--Taken from Book of Sith

Talzin is a Force user by Canon and Legends sources, nobody is making assumptions.

[Ghisallo]

Guys, Mother Talzin says that she is a Force User:

 

I am not a natural Force wielder like the Jedi or Sith. I use dark magic to achieve power.

 

Not a natural Force wielder = An unnatural Force wielder i.e. Mother Talzin is a Force wielder.

 

On top of that, Darth Sidious in The Book of Sith refers to the Nightsisters as a "dark side group" who we know were a splinter group from the Witches of Dathomir, founded by a Jedi Knight. Finally Talzin herself notes:

There is no need to separate what they call the living Force from the unifying Force. Both are manifestations of the Twin Deities ... What the Jedi call the dark side, the Nightsisters know to be the essence of life.

 

--Taken from Book of Sith

Talzin is a Force user by Canon and Legends sources, nobody is making assumptions.

 

Yeah that's what she meant....that's why Mace said "magic is a lie" in response.

 

God you have ALWAYS been good at ignoring total context when it suits your purposes.

 

All both of you are doing is saying...

 

"okay we believe she is a force user so we will now interpret statements and actions accordingly"

 

All I am saying is that if you don't do this and instead actually look at EVERYTHING she says and does the Jury is still out in the new Canon and this is a CANON thread...

 

As such the Book of Sith does NOT exist for the purposes of this thread. That line specifically was even to a large degree irrelevant because there is now just "the force". None of this "living force" and "universal Force" junk to justify the old "Chosen one exists to destroy evil in the Galaxy" because the current Canon, due to TCW season 3 and the complete season 3 commentaries states that even too much light means horrible things for the Galaxy and that Chosen one existed to keep BOTH the Light and Dark in check.

 

That quote relies on there being both...now there is simply the Force, Yin and Yang.

 

LEGENDS is irrelevant in this thread.... COMPLETELY. I know the essential destruction of the EU, in terms of having any direct influence on Canon, annoys you to no end but it is what it is.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

I'm talking about raw power. She was also described as a force user even in the comic that she appeared in. She is a force user. None of the nighsisters even showed remotely close to what she was capable of. None of them could do the green lightning. Put up barriers or anything else. The other nightsisters haven't shown anything like what Talzin can accomplish.

 

Don't forget that Talzin called the Winged Goddess and the Fanged Bat gods and goddesses. We know they're not. She also believed that everything came from them. This is also not true. The Jedi might have misinterpreted the prophecy but Talzin is off base on quite a few things. She fought Windu on Bardotta where she not only used her green lightning but also conjured a weapon out of spirit ichor. This proves she doesn't need to be on Dathomir in order to use her abilities. There is no evidence that she was weakened in her fight with Mace Windu.

 

This is a thread trying to quantify how powerful some force users are. If you're not into threads because it's based on people's opinions and interpretations then why bother trying to participate or derail them? You're making it clear that you have no interest in debating on who is stronger than who. You don't even like it. Your way of arguing is also flawed.

 

In Star Wars we know the force exists. We were also told that the force permeates everything. That it surrounds everyone and binds the galaxy together. Creating objects with the force shouldn't be out of the question. We also know ritual "magic" exists even amongst the Sith. In the clone wars t.v. series Sidious uses a few rituals himself . Rituals are very real. Talzin uses rituals. Sith uses rituals. You claim Talzin may not be a force user. I say prove it.

 

Let's put it this way. In any kind of debate, especially if you want to debate logically or even scientifically, you need to remove speculation. This doesn't mean throw everything out that we're not sure of. That isn't how it works. What that means is we know the force exists. Unless you can prove that there is something else other than the force then it's best to assume that what Talzin is doing is using the force. Just because she claims it's magic doesn't provide proof that it's magic. It doesn't matter if some people would believe her. That's irrelevant. Until we know otherwise it's the force.

 

Likewise you speculate that she might be weaker if not on her world. Not able to do certain things she's done there elsewhere. The series has made no implications of such. You can't pull arguments out of nowhere and use them in this manner. It doesn't work that way Ghisallo.

 

Talzin is a force user.

 

As for the fanged bat and winged goddess? That's because she believes they ARE the Light and Dark Side. When she draws on the dark side she calls it the fanged bat. To her that's what the dark side is. She doesn't know that the two sides are independent of the son and daughter. That they are merely aspects. After they died it didn't affect her or the nightsisters powers at all.

 

 

You are missing my point entirely.

 

There are indeed some force users where we can qualify feats and power. I it it DEVOLVES into subjectivity often when it doesn't have too yes, but my point was to say IF we want this to not devolve into subjectvity we need to be able to qualify the things adequetely.

 

That said in this particular thread we must only look at 6 movies, 2 cartoons and any published work AFTER April of 2014.

 

Because of this we can't qualify Talzin and her power. Let's say I just grant that she is a force user.

 

If I go to qualify something it is when you take 2 people and throw them on a deserted planet where neither has been before. So what is Spirit Ichor? See my post you responded to for the head aches that rises just from that.

 

Then you run into the issue of really how much of her power comes from that Ichor vs the power she possesses herself etc.

 

We have enough issues with the "typical" force users. Just look at the whole Yoda v Sidious and vader v Luke thing we had going on earlier. Add in all the issues with the complications Talzin brings to the table and there are simply too many variables with her character under any circumstance to make any qualification really plausible.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rhyltran]

You are missing my point entirely.

 

There are indeed some force users where we can qualify feats and power. I it it DEVOLVES into subjectivity often when it doesn't have too yes, but my point was to say IF we want this to not devolve into subjectvity we need to be able to qualify the things adequetely.

 

That said in this particular thread we must only look at 6 movies, 2 cartoons and any published work AFTER April of 2014.

 

Because of this we can't qualify Talzin and her power. Let's say I just grant that she is a force user.

 

If I go to qualify something it is when you take 2 people and throw them on a deserted planet where neither has been before. So what is Spirit Ichor? See my post you responded to for the head aches that rises just from that.

 

Then you run into the issue of really how much of her power comes from that Ichor vs the power she possesses herself etc.

 

We have enough issues with the "typical" force users. Just look at the whole Yoda v Sidious and vader v Luke thing we had going on earlier. Add in all the issues with the complications Talzin brings to the table and there are simply too many variables with her character under any circumstance to make any qualification really plausible.

 

Spirit ichor is force energy. She uses the spirit ichor to create things. This isn't what she uses to fight with. This is her ability to create and deconstruct matter. She fought Windu in a "vaccuum" so to speak. She didn't fight him on Dathomir. It doesn't matter if it functions differently. If someone uses energy and someone else uses liquid but when both powers smash into each other they produce the same strength one could assume while their powers are different they are equal.

 

In this case Talzin canonically fought Sidious. The sons of dathomir comic is canon. It was one of the first canon materials published under the new system. Her green lightning was completely comparable to Sidious lightning. In fact, it took Sidious combined with Dooku to hold her at bay long enough for Grievous to cut her down. This fight occurred when she was in a weakened state.

 

I don't know what more you want. To me it seems you're trying really hard to discredit Talzin. She is a force user. She fought Sidious. Sidious needed help of two different allies. There's nothing subjective here. This isn't my subjective view of the fight. This is literally what occurred.

 

Yoda vs Sidious and Luke Vs Vader is different and you know it.

 

Sidious won the duel but people speculate on whether or not Yoda would have lost had he been in a better position. I understand this debate. This is open to subjective interpretation.

 

Luke fought Vader and some believe it was because Luke grew powerful enough to challenge him whereas others believe Vader could not bring himself to use his full rage on his son thus wasn't at his strongest.

 

I understand these differences as well.

 

Talzin fought Sidious in a greatly weakened state. Sidious called out to Dooku for help. Then they commanded Grievous to strike her down while it took the two of them to hold off her lightning. It was her lightning vs theirs. Spirit ichor or not if you admit that she's a force user you can't claim that she's weaker than Dooku or even Sidious. At the very least you must acknowledge that she's on Sidious level (but even that's a stretch here). The characters clearly couldn't contest with her power alone. I don't care if you consider Spirit Icchor the force or not. That is her power.

 

Let's not forget that Permaxium created this thread and said that knowledge, tactics, genius, and saberplay count. If that's the case even if you don't acknowledge Spirit Icchor as the force (which you have no reason not to.) it's still part of HER power. This isn't the same as Beni's thread where it was literally just raw power. This is everything the combatant has at their disposal in a one on one fight. Do you think in a vaccuum Sidious can take Talzin? Yes or no.

 

If you say yes I don't think you're being fully honest. I also don't subscribe to the whole "You can't know who will beat who until you see them fight." I dislike that line of thinking both in real life and in media. I've seen people fight in real life and have been able to say with reasonable certainty "This guy would lose to this guy."

Edited March 25, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghisallo]

Spirit ichor is force energy. She uses the spirit ichor to create things. This isn't what she uses to fight with. This is her ability to create and deconstruct matter. She fought Windu in a "vaccuum" so to speak. She didn't fight him on Dathomir. It doesn't matter if it functions differently. If someone uses energy and someone else uses liquid but when both powers smash into each other they produce the same strength one could assume while their powers are different they are equal.

 

In this case Talzin canonically fought Sidious. The sons of dathomir comic is canon. It was one of the first canon materials published under the new system. Her green lightning was completely comparable to Sidious lightning. In fact, it took Sidious combined with Dooku to hold her at bay long enough for Grievous to cut her down. This fight occurred when she was in a weakened state.

 

I don't know what more you want. To me it seems you're trying really hard to discredit Talzin. She is a force user. She fought Sidious. Sidious needed help of two different allies. There's nothing subjective here. This isn't my subjective view of the fight. This is literally what occurred.

 

Yoda vs Sidious and Luke Vs Vader is different and you know it.

 

Sidious won the duel but people speculate on whether or not Yoda would have lost had he been in a better position. I understand this debate. This is open to subjective interpretation.

 

Luke fought Vader and some believe it was because Luke grew powerful enough to challenge him whereas others believe Vader could not bring himself to use his full rage on his son thus wasn't at his strongest.

 

I understand these differences as well.

 

Talzin fought Sidious in a greatly weakened state. Sidious called out to Dooku for help. Then they commanded Grievous to strike her down while it took the two of them to hold off her lightning. It was her lightning vs theirs. Spirit ichor or not if you admit that she's a force user you can't claim that she's weaker than Dooku or even Sidious. At the very least you must acknowledge that she's on Sidious level (but even that's a stretch here). The characters clearly couldn't contest with her power alone. I don't care if you consider Spirit Icchor the force or not. That is her power.

 

Let's not forget that Praxium created this thread and said that knowledge, tactics, genius, and saberplay count. If that's the case even if you don't acknowledge Spirit Icchor as the force (which you have no reason not to.) it's still part of HER power. This isn't the same as Beni's thread where it was literally just raw power. This is everything the combatant has at their disposal in a one on one fight. Do you think in a vaccuum Sidious can take Talzin? Yes or no.

 

If you say yes I don't think you're being fully honest. I also don't subscribe to the whole "You can't know who will beat who until you see them fight." I dislike that line of thinking both in real life and in media. I've seen people fight in real life and have been able to say with reasonable certainty "This guy would lose to this guy."

 

I'm not saying ANYONE is not being fully honest.... the reason why I mentioned the Yoda v Sidious fight is because, using Obi Wans 'certain points of view' speech, both sides can justify their position. I said subjectivity... not prejudice.

 

TBH, as much as I think the EU is a mess, the "rebooted" thread makes more sense than this one because A LOT of the information is now missing...

 

The thing is regarding you last point... we aren't with the force universally talking about shared concepts. If I use Aikido and someone else Ryu-Te u can look at both in terms of skill and physicality and come to a reasonable conclusion.

 

That is NOT the same concept. What is Ichor? is it limited to Dathomir? We never see it anywhere else. irl there is no such possibility of situational strength. So is she less powerful on other worlds? You told me I was silly for introducing my rl combat and fight experience when it came to Mace and his dueling tactics vs Talzin. You just did what you criticized me for if you didn't notice.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rhyltran]

I'm not saying ANYONE is not being fully honest.... the reason why I mentioned the Yoda v Sidious fight is because, using Obi Wans 'certain points of view' speech, both sides can justify their position. I said subjectivity... not prejudice.

 

TBH, as much as I think the EU is a mess, the "rebooted" thread makes more sense than this one because A LOT of the information is now missing...

 

The thing is regarding you last point... we aren't with the force universally talking about shared concepts. If I use Aikido and someone else Ryu-Te u can look at both in terms of skill and physicality and come to a reasonable conclusion.

 

That is NOT the same concept. What is Ichor? is it limited to Dathomir? We never see it anywhere else. irl there is no such possibility of situational strength. So is she less powerful on other worlds? You told me I was silly for introducing my rl combat and fight experience when it came to Mace and his dueling tactics vs Talzin. You just did what you criticized me for if you didn't notice.

 

You keep saying we don't see spirit ichor anywhere else. This proves you're not paying attention to my posts. She used spirit ichor to conjure the sword she used against windu. She did not fight Windu on Dathomir. She fought Windu the same way and in the same manner that she engaged Sidious, Dooku, and Grievous.

 

I didn't do the same as you. You compared windu directly to real life fighting styles. I didn't compare them directly to real life experiences. I was pointing out it's ridiculous to claim you can't tell who will win between one fighter over another until they fight. Even in Star Wars you can easily call one on one fights if there's no one intervening in the fights based on who the characters were. Some characters it's not so clear cut because they're on the same tier level but some characters can smash another effortlessly.

 

Example. Darth Maul cannot defeat Sidious in a one on one fight. It will not happen. It can not happen. He can fight him a million times with the same end result.

 

Kaanan versus Vader. Vader would destroy him. There's no if and or butt about it. He would die. He doesn't compare in the slightest. Spirit Ichor is an aspect of the force because we have no reason to believe otherwise. Until evidence comes up that contradicts our understanding of the force we should assume it's an aspect of the force.

 

Also for the record. The son and Daughter died in season 3. Talzin was in season 5-6. She was unaware that they died. It didn't affect her powers. She believed that they were the force. They are not. She believed when drawing on the light/dark she was drawing on the daughter and son. She wasn't drawing on them. She was drawing on the light and dark. Her understanding of the force is both primitive and flawed. That doesn't make her any less powerful.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghisallo]

You keep saying we don't see spirit ichor anywhere else. This proves you're not paying attention to my posts. She used spirit ichor to conjure the sword she used against windu. She did not fight Windu on Dathomir. She fought Windu the same way and in the same manner that she engaged Sidious, Dooku, and Grievous.

 

I didn't do the same as you. You compared windu directly to real life fighting styles. I didn't compare them directly to real life experiences. I was pointing out it's ridiculous to claim you can't tell who will win between one fighter over another until they fight. Even in Star Wars you can easily call one on one fights if there's no one intervening in the fights based on who the characters were. Some characters it's not so clear cut because they're on the same tier level but some characters can smash another effortlessly.

 

Example. Darth Maul cannot defeat Sidious in a one on one fight. It will not happen. It can not happen. He can fight him a million times with the same end result.

 

Kaanan versus Vader. Vader would destroy him. There's no if and or butt about it. He would die. He doesn't compare in the slightest. Spirit Ichor is an aspect of the force because we have no reason to believe otherwise. Until evidence comes up that contradicts our understanding of the force we should assume it's an aspect of the force.

 

Also for the record. The son and Daughter died in season 3. Talzin was in season 5-6. She was unaware that they died. It didn't affect her powers. She believed that they were the force. They are not. She believed when drawing on the light/dark she was drawing on the daughter and son. She wasn't drawing on them. She was drawing on the light and dark. Her understanding of the force is both primitive and flawed. That doesn't make her any less powerful.

 

 

I admit I did purposefully deceive you to get you to say this... to prove a point.... yes I will manipulate people to prove a point

 

If you remembered I asked what's up with that in the other thread "rebooted"

 

I asked... does that mean you basically have to bottle it up? is it finite or isn't it? Why? Because if it is not finite or limited in some way then ALL of the Dathomir witches are the most freakin powerful forcewielders in the gosh darn cosmos. Literally that is the only logical conclusion since they all show a talent of one degree or another in manipulating that crap. If you want I will search through all of the other thread and find the links and then the dodges that swiftly come afterwards.

 

My entire poitn AGIN to to say there are questions.... instead of addressing the issues directly you constantly more to something on a tangent... which in a debate is called avoidance... even the fact of the son and daughter dying avoid the MAIN issue I hve been raising... time and again.. *** is Spirit ichor. Since no one can answer since I asked it the first time it has been dodge...

 

As for your last bit I call bull ****. You said...

 

I dislike that line of thinking both in real life and in media. I've seen people fight in real life and have been able to say with reasonable certainty "This guy would lose to this guy."

 

There is a BIG difference between the fights you see in boxing or MMA and an honest to god fight irl where life and death is on the line. You raised this issue NOT me. and now you want to claim you didn't? I mean if you really want to go there I can use actual fighting since 1991, since 1998 not at rifle range but almost exclusively hth, vs fights you have SEEN, but that seems a tad off topic.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Rhyltran]

I admit I did purposefully deceive you to get you to say this... to prove a point.... yes I will manipulate people to prove a point

 

If you remembered I asked what's up with that in the other thread "rebooted"

 

I asked... does that mean you basically have to bottle it up? is it finite or isn't it? Why? Because if it is not finite or limited in some way then ALL of the Dathomir witches are the most freakin powerful forcewielders in the gosh darn cosmos. Literally that is the only logical conclusion since they all show a talent of one degree or another in manipulating that crap. If you want I will search through all of the other thread and find the links and then the dodges that swiftly come afterwards.

 

My entire poitn AGIN to to say there are questions.... instead of addressing the issues directly you constantly more to something on a tangent... which in a debate is called avoidance... even the fact of the son and daughter dying avoid the MAIN issue I hve been raising... time and again.. *** is Spirit ichor. Since no one can answer since I asked it the first time it has been dodge...

 

As for your last bit I call bull ****. You said...

 

 

 

There is a BIG difference between the fights you see in boxing or MMA and an honest to god fight irl where life and death is on the line. You raised this issue NOT me. and now you want to claim you didn't? I mean if you really want to go there I can use actual fighting since 1991, since 1998 not at rifle range but almost exclusively hth, vs fights you have SEEN, but that seems a tad off topic.

 

You realize in your post you actually have said a bunch of nothing? You claim you manipulated me into proving a point but then didn't say what that point is. The other witches never showed any ability to use Spirit Ichor. I don't know where you got this idea. I have a question. Have you even watched the TCW series? Also you keep saying if they can use spirit ichor then that makes them all the most powerful force wielders.

 

Why? The ability to create matter is a unique display of the force but how much raw power does it take? We don't know so we can't exactly claim that the ability to use spirit ichor is an act of raw power. You're so stuck on spirit ichor when I'm not even using it as my evidence on how powerful Talzin is. I was comparing her greatest weapon which is the green lightning. That attack isn't spirit ichor. That is her weapon of choice against the likes of Dooku and Sidious. I compared her combat ability as well as her raw power in the attack.

 

Spirit Ichor is the force. I answered that. It's just another way of using it. You keep asking what it is and I keep telling you what the answer is. In Star Wars the only "mystical" thing in the universe is the force.

 

Let's provide some background. I used to be part of a debate team. To conduct a proper debate to put it in layman's terms you need to be as objective as possible. Not only that but it's best to apply the scientific approach in terms of debate. What does this mean? Let's look at star wars..

 

In Star Wars we know the force exists. This is a fact that the movies prove to us. It is a fact that it exists in the universe. Magic is not. Spirit Ichor is not. Talzin calls her ability to construct and deconstruct matter is Spirit Ichor. You ask what is Spirit Ichor? My answer is it's the force. You claim we don't know for sure. Your claim is irrelevant. Your argument is the same argument theists use against atheists.

 

You claim Spirit Ichor is not the force. It's up to you to prove that this is the case. If you say "We don't know for sure" and we do know the force is a fact in Star Wars mythology and it's best to assume it is the force.

 

I already told you permaxium made it clear that when comparing the strongest force users it's more along the lines of who is the most deadliest? It's who could defeat who in a fight. This isn't like the rebooted thread. I said that already. Praxium's thread is not like the other thread. It's not about who has the rawest who can lift what object. It's literally who could win in a fight. The nightsisters fought Dooku three on one and lost. Obviously they're not stronger than most force wielders because they couldn't fight Dooku. They poisoned him, blinded him, masked themselves from the force, and still lost.

 

Dooku in a million years could never oppose Talzin. Stop with the "What is spirit ichor" strawman.

 

As for your real life arguments? Drop them. Now you're making assumptions about me. "Fights that you have seen." Fights that I have seen? You don't know much about me. I've fought in competitions. I've fought in real life. I've been put in the hospital. I've put other people in the hospital. I've won. I've lost. I'm not getting into my personal life. It's not relevant to this topic.

 

As for the "I call bull" line you gave. Not to mention you jumping to manipulation when you haven't even made a point. You're starting to get dangerously close to using Ad Hominems. If you can't handle the debate. Stay out of it but it's becoming increasingly clear that you're very biased against Talzin. You're making every attempt to discredit her. Trying to find some way to invalidate her fights. I think it's because you hate the EU and how ridiculous they made some characters and it pains you to see that Talzin is in much the same vein as those characters. Didn't I already theorize that Disney Canon wouldn't be very different? People like seeing over the top force wielders. Disney will create over the top force wielders.

 

For heaven's sake in one of the new comics we had Vader casually lifting an AT-AT with one hand and crushing it. This level of power isn't in the movies but it's Canon now that Vader has that level of strength. Expect to see more. Especially from newer villains. I promise you they'll release villains that make the likes of Talzin look like a joke because people find it interesting.

 

*Edit* This whole thing is turning into a mess. Let's remove anything related to real life and stick to logical debate. This means attempt to lower subjectivity to a bare minimum while being as objective as possible. In any kind of debate there will always be some subjectivity. You can't escape that but it can be minimized. The first step in doing so is to stick with the facts.

 

What is Spirit Ichor? As mentioned above we don't really know for sure but what we do know for absolute certainty is that there is the force and it allows to do unprecedented things. We have both in canon and out of canon source that all things are possible through the force. Talzin's ability to construct and deconstruct matter is not out of the realm of possibility in what the force is capable of.

 

Your argument is we don't know for sure but based on what we do know I believe it's best to assume that Spirit Ichor is another application of the force. There's no proof to the contrary so until Disney says otherwise it's a safe bet that she's using the force. We know that Spirit Ichor can be used anywhere else. We know that when the Son and Daughter died it didn't affect Talzin's powers or the powers of the nightsisters. She didn't even notice. So her claim that she gets her powers directly through them is an invalid claim and given that they're both aspects of the force this provides evidence that she's drawing from the force.

 

She admits that she's a force user but ambiguously claims that she's not a natural one. This proves, at the very least, that she is definitely a force user. So she does use the force in at least some manner by her own admittance. We know she can fight without Spirit Ichor. She fought Windu in single combat using a sword made from spirit ichor but she did fight him with her own abilities. She's able to erect force barriers to protect her from outside attacks as well as combat Sidious through her green lightning.

 

So here's the facts. Talzin is a force wielder which makes her capable of wielding the force. She is both quick and strong enough to keep up with Mace Windu in swordplay. She was capable of holding her own against Sidious in a three on one battle. She was admittedly greatly weakened when she fought Sidious. She didn't battle mace on Dathomir and was not only capable of conjuring a sword but also using her green lightning against him show-casing that she doesn't need to be on Dathomir to use her powers.

 

In star wars the only external force we know exists for sure is the force and there's insufficient evidence to claim that there is another external force. Until we have more evidence to the contrary I propose that we just, for the sake of our sanity, assume for the moment that Talzin is a force user who is using the force albeit in a unique matter.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Beniboybling]

Yeah that's what she meant....that's why Mace said "magic is a lie" in response.

 

God you have ALWAYS been good at ignoring total context when it suits your purposes.

 

All both of you are doing is saying...

 

"okay we believe she is a force user so we will now interpret statements and actions accordingly"

 

All I am saying is that if you don't do this and instead actually look at EVERYTHING she says and does the Jury is still out in the new Canon and this is a CANON thread...

 

As such the Book of Sith does NOT exist for the purposes of this thread. That line specifically was even to a large degree irrelevant because there is now just "the force". None of this "living force" and "universal Force" junk to justify the old "Chosen one exists to destroy evil in the Galaxy" because the current Canon, due to TCW season 3 and the complete season 3 commentaries states that even too much light means horrible things for the Galaxy and that Chosen one existed to keep BOTH the Light and Dark in check.

 

That quote relies on there being both...now there is simply the Force, Yin and Yang.

 

LEGENDS is irrelevant in this thread.... COMPLETELY. I know the essential destruction of the EU, in terms of having any direct influence on Canon, annoys you to no end but it is what it is.

Disclaimer: I don't give a bantha's behind about the context of this thread. I think this "Canon only" rule is a joke that evidently promotes willful ignorance of the facts and illogical conclusions, so lets cut out the lecture about "what I'm saying" when Legends sources, which I have and will continue to regard as absolutely valid, outright state Mother Talzin is a Force User, and over at my thread, that takes all the facts into account, we consider her as such.

 

So again, I am making no assumptions, your just trying to invalidate my proof.

 

But anyway your missing something, in that Canon quote from Mother Talzin I referenced, Talzin says she is a Force Wielder. And for the record, Windu says "magic is only an illusion", which is nothing more than a verbal retort to her claim that "your power is no match for my magicks", I don't think it of much substance, especially considering just prior Talzin made it pretty clear she was a Force User, albeit an unnatural one, but a Force User nonetheless.

 

So even if you believe the EU is dead and Canon is the only relevant source, Talzin is still a Force User, and its quite evident those were there intentions from the beginning, it doesn't even make logical sense for her not to be.