The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

[Permaximum]

From what I read in those quotes that you linked, it suggested that the novelizations were canon when they didnt differ from what happens on screen, and only when it doesnt differ with whats on screen. Not that they were non-canon all together, but not like it matters, if it happened on screen it happened on screen its canon cus its in the movie not cus its in the novel, so it doesnt matter to the crux of any of my argument.

 

No.

 

That works for TFA novelization. As for previous novelizaitons;

 

@pablohidalgo are prior novelizations canon? I seem to remember reading something about this but cannot remember.

 

@starwars_facts remember these novels have Luke as Blue Five, a blue-skinned Yoda, and Owen as Ben's brother.

Link: https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/sta...02967106994176

 

I guess you missed this quote. If this is not obvious enough for you, I assure you, he confirmed they are not canon more than a few times (you can ask him yourself) but because of the limitation of Twitter, I couldn't find his replies before november 7. Only with a direct link I can access to them.

 

However if you still need more; these guys here follow Pablo Hidalgo on twitter too and as you can see they all confirm they are not canon.

 

Linkl: https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/are-the-film-novelizations-canon.8543/

Edited January 10, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

EXCEPTION 3. Any story parts that differ from the movies

 

FAQ 1. Are novelizations for the previous movies canon?

 

FAQ 2. Is TFA's novelization canon?

 

It's canon except the parts where it differs from the movie.

 

I read that, but I also read this. Remember that in your quote it refers to things that are clearly not canon because they differ from the movie. Which as it reads above clearly states "its canon except the parts where it differs from the movie" which those parts clearly do.

 

So short answer for "are the novelizations canon" is No

Long answer is only the spots that in no way contradict with what is on screen, which doesnt really matter since you just SAW it on screen and since what is on screen we have already confirmed as canon it doesnt matter if the books are or are not canon, since only the parts that are on screen are canon any way, so just use the movie, dont bother with the book.

 

Which is exactly what I have done from the start, and you obviously didnt answer the rest of it, because like I said it doesnt matter if the novels are or arent canon. The movies are, the movies always will be so just use those. Which is exactly what I have done from the beginning.

Edited January 10, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

Myself wrote that quote not Lucasfilm Story Group That answer was meant for only the TFA question.

 

That "story parts that differ from the movie" quote was an answer to a question about TFA novelization, it was not related to previous novelizations.

 

Here it is:

 

@pablohidalgo is the information in The Force Awakens book that isn't in the movie canon? Thank you!

 

@TheRealMasen Think of it as a novelization of canonical events. Where it conflicts, defer to the movie. Where it adds, take it as fact.

 

For previous novelizations:

 

@pablohidalgo are prior novelizations canon? I seem to remember reading something about this but cannot remember.

 

@starwars_facts remember these novels have Luke as Blue Five, a blue-skinned Yoda, and Owen as Ben's brother.

 

Also official Canon annoucement move them out of Canon anyways.

 

While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.

 

Still, like I said before, that Pablo guy openly confirmed previous novelizations are not canon more than once.

 

If you're having trouble to understand these quotes I don't believe we can discuss the actual topic further.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

Myself wrote that quote not Lucasfilm Story Group That answer was meant for only the TFA question.

 

That "story parts that differ from the movie" quote was an answer to a question about TFA novelization, it was not related to previous novelizations.

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

For previous novelizations:

 

 

 

Also official Canon annoucement move them out of Canon anyways.

 

 

 

Still, like I said before, that Pablo guy openly confirmed previous novelizations are not canon more than once.

 

If you're having trouble to understand these quotes I don't believe we can discuss the actual topic further.

 

DId you read anything I just said. Here let me fix my thing for you so you can understand it.

 

Are the MOVIES Canon? Yes, of course.

 

Ok well then all the info I have used has been in the movies, so it doenst matter if the novelizations are canon, cus I am not using hte novelizations. Now respond to the rest.

Edited January 11, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

Now respond to the rest.

 

Ask in a polite manner and I'll consider it.

[tunewalker]

Ask in a polite manner and I'll consider it.

 

I am asking Politely. That is as polite as you are going to get from me, given the number of times its been requested, and the number of times we have had to the same thing, and given your own rude behavior since the start. This is as polite as its going to get until you decide to change your attitude. Until then I will continue to give exactly what you wish to receive as per your own actions. I am under the impression you act in the manner you wish to be treated, thus I am treating you as you treat others.

[Permaximum]

I am asking Politely. That is as polite as you are going to get from me, given the number of times its been requested, and the number of times we have had to the same thing, and given your own rude behavior since the start. This is as polite as its going to get until you decide to change your attitude. Until then I will continue to give exactly what you wish to receive as per your own actions. I am under the impression you act in the manner you wish to be treated, thus I am treating you as you treat others.

 

You've failed to grasp where my atititude has changed.

 

I don't believe you'll accept what I'm going to say on the matter of Luke anyways. Although most of the list could be arranged by reviewing statements and demonstrations of force feats when they were mostly needed, Luke's case needs a bit bigger point of view and hint analysing.

 

That's why you will have a hard time accepting it.

[tunewalker]

You've failed to grasp where my atititude has changed.

 

I don't believe you'll accept what I'm going to say on the matter of Luke anyways. Although most of the list could be arranged by reviewing statements and demonstrations of force feats when they were mostly needed, Luke's case needs a bit bigger point of view and hint analysing.

 

That's why you will have a hard time accepting it.

 

"bigger point of view an hint analysing"

 

Not sure what you are talking about.

 

 

Facts for Luke in RotJ

 

1. We are told through out the movie that he has improved.

2. He now knows Vader is his father, and repeatedly states he will not fight his father.

3. We know Yoda sends him to kill both Vader and the emperor, though not neccisarily at the same time. Stating that he requires no more training.

4. We know Obi-wan Agree's with Yoda's assessment, and believes that anything other then a dead Vader and Emerpror results in an imperial victory.

5. We know Luke Faces his father even though he does not wish to fight or kills his father, repeating it multiple times.

6. We know Vader is slightly conflicted about fighting Luke.

7. We know that Luke's conflicted nature causes him to go completely defensive, and yet he still manages to dominate the entire fight.

8. We know that Vader's conflicted nature still allows him to try to kill, and threaten to kill Luke through out his conflict with him in an attempt to push Luke to the dark Side, or destroy him in the process.

9. We know that when Luke no longer holds back, he absolutely decimates his father with little effort.

10. We know that the Emperor Acknowledges Luke's power and is willing to replace Vader with Luke. Something he has only ever done when some one surpasses his former student. (we still have no reason to believe this behavior changed)

11. We know upon deciding not to fight any further Luke is hit by an attack he has never seen.

12. We know that Vader did not step in imidiately to stop the emperor, showing that he was in fact conflicted and not 100% against destroy his son, so while he was conflicted he was not holding back unlike Luke.

 

 

These are the facts that we know, and you have never addressed them.

[ConVallian]

Luke was holding back until Darth Vader mentioned his sister then he went ham. Luke went all out thats how he beat Vader, whereas Vader was conflicted the entire fight

[tunewalker]

Luke was holding back until Darth Vader mentioned his sister then he went ham. Luke went all out thats how he beat Vader, whereas Vader was conflicted the entire fight

 

7. We know that Luke's conflicted nature causes him to go completely defensive, and yet he still manages to dominate the entire fight.

8. We know that Vader's conflicted nature still allows him to try to kill, and threaten to kill Luke through out his conflict with him in an attempt to push Luke to the dark Side, or destroy him in the process.

9. We know that when Luke no longer holds back, he absolutely decimates his father with little effort.

10. We know that the Emperor Acknowledges Luke's power and is willing to replace Vader with Luke. Something he has only ever done when some one surpasses his former student. (we still have no reason to believe this behavior changed)

11. We know upon deciding not to fight any further Luke is hit by an attack he has never seen.

12. We know that Vader did not step in imidiately to stop the emperor, showing that he was in fact conflicted and not 100% against destroy his son, so while he was conflicted he was not holding back for the entirety of the fight unlike Luke.

 

If you notice the blolded, I noted that its at number 9, but it doesnt matter, watch the whole fight, even while Luke is holding back he holds the upper hand from start to finish (as number 7 says), NOT just when he goes ham. When he goes ham its not even a fight any more (as number 9 says). Conflicted (not holding back, just conflicted) Vader is not even in the same ball park as Luke (as number 12 and number 9 says). And again Palpatine's acknowledgement of the power(number 10). If it was just Luke beating Vader, you would have a point. If I didnt already take that into account you would have a point, but Luke beating Vader is not the only factor putting him above Vader, and I already took it into account with the presented facts, he was holding the advantage while holding back, and while vader was conflicted, and decimated him when he wasnt holding back and Vader was conflicted. When Vader SHOULD have had the advantage, they were equals/ Luke held the advantage. When Luke was supposed to have the advantage, Vader wasnt even close to being in the fight. Emperor acknowledges this, thus Luke> Vader.

 

 

Edit: let me try to explain this even better. Vader was fighting Conflicted, but he was still willing to fight, while Luke was not wanting to fight at all. Meaning that while Vader was fighting with HALF his heart in the fight, Luke was fighting with NONE of his heart in the fight. If they were equals then Vader should have held the upper hand during the start of the fight... he did not. If he was stronger then he should have been nearly DOMINATING Luke at the start of the fight, he was not. Instead Luke was the one holding the upper hand even while he did not want to fight at all. If he had even been WILLING to fight, in other words had he simply been conflicted just as Vader was then Vader would have been dead right here https://youtu.be/_RFYoZ7H67A?t=74 just like when Luke dodged him and nicked him in Episode V, there he had the opportunity for more then a Nick, but rather then striking back and ending Vader right there, he backed off and shut off his lightsaber. That entire sequence shows just how much Luke is in control of the fight while still NOT ATTACKING at all, if he was "just conflicted" as Vader is rather then Not wanting to fight at all. Then he would be attacking back, and if he was attacking back, as we see Vader would have been dead before Luke "went Ham" the only explanation for the events are Luke is more powerful.

 

Essentially

 

If Equals during the start of the fight Vader should have the upper hand, because he is at least WILLING to fight.. he does not have said upper hand.

If Vader> Luke then this should Force Luke to fight all out just to keep up with him, again this is not what happens so this is not a valid explination.

If Luke > Vader Luke would have the upper hand, but as he is unwilling to fight Vader would be in no danger of being hurt... this is what we see. Thus this is the only proper explination, but again its not the only evidence. ALL of the evidence must be addressed not just the ending of the fight, but the whole fight as well as the Emperor's view on the fight, which is Luke > Vader (remember again the Emperor has never replaced an Apprentice with a weaker apprentice, there is no reason to think he is doing so now.)

Edited January 11, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

Luke was holding back until Darth Vader mentioned his sister then he went ham. Luke went all out thats how he beat Vader, whereas Vader was conflicted the entire fight

 

He can't seem to accept that.

 

Also, Luke wasn't holding back in the first round (lack of a better word). He decided to hold back when he heard Palpatine's words and acknowledged that he used the dark side before the second. Eventually, he wasn't holding back in the last too.

 

On the contrary, Vader was in doubt and holding back in the entire fight.

 

In the canon novel "Lords of the Sith", page 256:

 

With preternatural speed the Emperor drew, ignited, and slashed at the girl with his lightsaber, but Vader had sensed his Master’s intent and moved with greater speed, igniting his own blade and intercepting his Master’s blow before it could land.

 

Vader was even faster than Palpatine, I don't think Luke could even defend himself when Vader said "You're unwise to lower your defenses" if he really wanted to kill Luke.

 

In Darth Vader comics, he TK crushed an AT-AT, a tower and a space shuttle on the sky when he was on the ground. These force feats greatly exceed any other feat we have seen before in the Canon. Yet, our dear Luke fan here can't seem to accept that Vader wasn't going all out against his son.

 

As for Palpatine's desire to replace Vader, in the new comics and novels, it's shown over and over again, Sheev started to worry about the fact that he couldn't erase the good from Vader completely and he was constantly searching for his replacement. He even considered cyborgs as the replacements for Vader but he couldn't find a proper replacement that's powerful enough to be his second in command.

 

Shortly, he wasn't searching for an apprentice that's powerful than Vader. Simply, a powerful replacement would be enough but since Vader and Palpatine exterminated most of the force sensitive beings in the galaxy, none came close to harnassing the required power Palpatine sought, until Luke's appearance.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Permaximum

[PadsterPwns]

Please answer this: if Vader really was more powerful than Sidious then why did he still obey his orders at the end of Lords of the Sith and eliminate the village? He clearly didn't want to yet he still did it. Also why would Vader still be the apprentice if he was stronger than Sidious?

[Permaximum]

Please answer this: if Vader really was more powerful than Sidious then why did he still obey his orders at the end of Lords of the Sith and eliminate the village? He clearly didn't want to yet he still did it. Also why would Vader still be the apprentice if he was stronger than Sidious?

 

He believed in the dark side and he still thought there was much to learn from his master. I think Vader was indifferent about slaughtering the village. He probably thought it was just unnecessary violence that didn't server their needs. He thought it's unnecessary because he denied there's good in him, he didn't need to prove it, in his mind at least.

 

The same applies to why he's still the apprentice. He thought there were still more he could learn from Sidious and I think he was right. Also, Sidious was all Vader had. I don't think he ever genuinely thought about killing him until he found out the truth about Luke. Last but not least, Vader was very vulnerable to force lightning and being more powerful than Sidious doesn't change that fact. He would seriously risk his life in a duel with Sidious no matter how strong he was.

 

These are my assumptions but they are strong. Because we have no statement in the Canon that Sidious is more powerful than Vader, Vader has shown far greater force feats, confirmed to be faster, it's also confirmed that his injuries strengthened his connection to the Force, one way or another he killed Sidious while he was weakened and one-handed.

 

If you asked me what would happen in an actual duel between two of them, because of Vader's vulnerability, I believe the outcome would be the same. They would kill eachother. However, against any Jedi, Vader would be a more threatening peresence than Palpatine.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

He can't seem to accept that.

 

Also, Luke wasn't holding back in the first round (lack of a better word). He decided to hold back when he heard Palpatine's words and acknowledged that he used the dark side before the second. Eventually, he wasn't holding back in the last too.

 

On the contrary, Vader was in doubt and holding back in the entire fight.

 

In the canon novel "Lords of the Sith", page 256:

 

 

 

Vader was even faster than Palpatine, I don't think Luke could even defend himself when Vader said "You're unwise to lower your defenses" if he really wanted to kill Luke.

 

In Darth Vader comics, he TK crushed an AT-AT, a tower and a space shuttle on the sky when he was on the ground. These force feats greatly exceed any other feat we have seen before in the Canon. Yet, our dear Luke fan here can't seem to accept that Vader wasn't going all out against his son.

 

As for Palpatine's desire to replace Vader, in the new comics and novels, it's shown over and over again, Sheev started to worry about the fact that he couldn't erase the good from Vader completely and he was constantly searching for his replacement. He even considered cyborgs as the replacements for Vader but he couldn't find a proper replacement that's powerful enough to be his second in command.

 

Shortly, he wasn't searching for an apprentice that's powerful than Vader. Simply, a powerful replacement would be enough but since Vader and Palpatine exterminated most of the force sensitive beings in the galaxy, none came close to harnassing the required power Palpatine sought, until Luke's appearance.

 

Luke was conflicted in the opening round, just like Vader at that moment, they were both fighting as Equals and Luke took the DECISIVE edge. During Round 2 Vader was CONFLICTED while Luke was not wanting to FIGHT AT ALL (please understand the difference) if Vader was more powerful Luke would not have had the chance to defend himself.

 

"you dont believe' well, I guess you dont believe your eyes or what happened, and your "belief" is not canon so anything following "i dont believe" well Yoda has a few words for you

 

Further the thing that has never been explained that makes ALL of this moot. Palpatine Acknowledges Luke's power and wants to replace Vader with Luke. He has only ever done this when his apprentice has been surpassed. The explanation that he wanted to replace Vader because he knew Vader would likely turn on him does not fit for why he Chose LUKE because at the start of RotJ he straight out says how hard it will be to turn Luke to the dark side as it will require both of them, so Luke is even MORE likely to be to steeped in the light, so that excuse doesnt hold for Luke as he would be going backwards from here. "When you eliminate the impossible, what ever remains however unlikely MUST be true" Its IMPOSSIBLE for Palpatine to want to replace Vader with Luke because there is "to much good" in Vader because there is even MORE good in Luke, thus what remains that Luke is more powerful then Vader MUST be true.

 

 

As Far as the fight this is what we see.

 

 

Round 1 Conflicted Luke vs Conflicted Vader (remember Luke states several times he does not want to fight his father, AND he is struggling with his conflict for ages before he even takes his weapon so there is no debating he is conflicted)

Result: Luke Dominate's Vader

Round 2 Luke holding back, putting even less effort in then round 1 vs Conflicted Vader

Result: Draw, though Luke is able to disengage as he pleases showing he still holds some upper hand.

Round 3: Luke All out vs Conflicted Vader

Result: Curb stomp, Luke and Vader arent even in the same ball park at this point.

 

Luke is the one holding the advantage through ALL 3 Rounds of the fight. When they are both conflicted he kicks Vader down the stairs. When he doesnt want to fight, he still controls the pace of the fight. And when he goes all out its no longer even a competition. I have been looking at the WHOLE fight, from the moment Luke surrenders to the Emperor to the moment Vader throws the emperor over the edge. Vader was not the only CONFLICTED one during the start and yet Luke STILL held the advantage. "being Conflicted" is a poor excuse for what we see, since "being conflicted" Luke was as well up until the end.

[PadsterPwns]

He believed in the dark side and he still thought there was much to learn from his master. I think Vader was indifferent about slaughtering the village. He probably thought it was just unnecessary violence that didn't server their needs. He thought it's unnecessary because he denied there's good in him, he didn't need to prove it, in his mind at least.

 

The same applies to why he's still the apprentice. He thought there were still more he could learn from Sidious and I think he was right. Also, Sidious was all Vader had. I don't think he ever genuinely thought about killing him until he found out the truth about Luke. Last but not least, Vader was very vulnerable to force lightning and being more powerful than Sidious doesn't change that fact. He would seriously risk his life in a duel with Sidious no matter how strong he was.

 

These are my assumptions but they are strong. Because we have no statement in the Canon that Sidious is more powerful than Vader, Vader has shown far greater force feats, confirmed to be faster, it's also confirmed that his injuries strengthened his connection to the Force, one way or another he killed Sidious while he was weakened and one-handed.

 

If you asked me what would happen in an actual duel between two of them, because of Vader's vulnerability, I believe the outcome would be the same. They would kill eachother. However, against any Jedi, Vader would be a more threatening peresence than Palpatine.

Thanks for the response.

 

My issue is that you're essentially saying that Vader would give Yoda more trouble than Sidious did. Also I'd say their Force feats are relatively even in TK considering that Sidious was chucking Senate pods left and right with utter ease whilst cackling. As for saying that Vader is faster than Sidious, I have two questions:

 

1) Do you think Vader could blitz the B-team like Sidious did? Keep in mind that Fisto has stomped Grievous who was giving Kenobi trouble and that the blitz Sidious performed was due to him being much more powerful.

 

2) Do you think Vader could match ROTS Yoda like Sidious did?

 

In addition, I'm not really swayed by your rebuttal to Vader still being Sidious' apprentice, something we know about Vader is that he has craved power for sometime, it was what turned him to the Dark Side in the first place. We hear him say that he basically wants a dictatorship in Episode 2, Episode 3 is basically evidence itself and he mentions power numerous times in his duel on Bespin. I'm also not swayed by your response to Vader not wanting to destroy the Emperor, especially because Vader wanted Luke to join him and do exactly that.

 

As for saying Vader was more powerful than Luke, I have to agree with Tune here, why else would he want Luke as an apprentice?

Edited January 11, 2016 by PadsterPwns

[tunewalker]

He believed in the dark side and he still thought there was much to learn from his master. I think Vader was indifferent about slaughtering the village. He probably thought it was just unnecessary violence that didn't server their needs. He thought it's unnecessary because he denied there's good in him, he didn't need to prove it, in his mind at least.

 

The same applies to why he's still the apprentice. He thought there were still more he could learn from Sidious and I think he was right. Also, Sidious was all Vader had. I don't think he ever genuinely thought about killing him until he found out the truth about Luke. Last but not least, Vader was very vulnerable to force lightning and being more powerful than Sidious doesn't change that fact. He would seriously risk his life in a duel with Sidious no matter how strong he was.

 

These are my assumptions but they are strong. Because we have no statement in the Canon that Sidious is more powerful than Vader, Vader has shown far greater force feats, confirmed to be faster, it's also confirmed that his injuries strengthened his connection to the Force, one way or another he killed Sidious while he was weakened and one-handed.

 

If you asked me what would happen in an actual duel between two of them, because of Vader's vulnerability, I believe the outcome would be the same. They would kill eachother. However, against any Jedi, Vader would be a more threatening peresence than Palpatine.

 

"you do not yet realize your importance, You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training, with our combined strength we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the Galaxy."

 

"you can destroy the emperor, he has foreseen this, it is your destiny. Join me and we can rule the Galaxy as father and son"

 

Again, why would the Emperor replace some one he SUSPECTS MIGHT kill him for some one he has FORESEEN will kill him if he didnt want the most powerful apprentice possible. Further Anakin in Episode III "I am more powerful then the Emperor... I can over throw him, we can make things the way we want them to be" This is a mirror of what He is telling Luke... except he is telling LUKE that "hey if I complete your training together we can kill the emperor and make things the way we want them to be" showing that again this excuse that "vader still has more to learn from the emperor" doesnt hold water with further examination, as if that was the reason he hadnt overthrown him yet, then his conversation with Luke would not have shown the eagerness and WANT to overthrow the emperor, but needing help to do it. Needing some one more powerful then HIM to do it. Also dont say it was just to turn Luke to the dark side and that was it. if that was the case Vader would not have even mentioned the emperor, but Vader see's Luke as his ticket out from under the shadow of the Emperor, he wants Palpatine dead, and that want rears its head when he sees that opportunity hear.

[cs_zoltan]

Fisto has stomped Grievous.

 

You take that back.

[PadsterPwns]

You take that back.

Would "handily defeated" be better?

[Permaximum]

Thanks for the response.

 

My issue is that you're essentially saying that Vader would give Yoda more trouble than Sidious did. Also I'd say their Force feats are relatively even in TK considering that Sidious was chucking Senate pods left and right with utter ease whilst cackling. As for saying that Vader is faster than Sidious, I have two questions:

 

1) Do you think Vader could blitz the B-team like Sidious did? Keep in mind that Fisto has stomped Grievous who was giving Kenobi trouble and that the blitz Sidious performed was due to him being much more powerful.

 

2) Do you think Vader could match ROTS Yoda like Sidious did?

 

In addition, I'm not really swayed by your rebuttal to Vader still being Sidious' apprentice, something we know about Vader is that he has craved power for sometime, it was what turned him to the Dark Side in the first place. We hear him say that he basically wants a dictatorship in Episode 2, Episode 3 is basically evidence itself and he mentions power numerous times in his duel on Bespin. I'm also not swayed by your response to Vader not wanting to destroy the Emperor, especially because Vader wanted Luke to join him and do exactly that.

 

As for saying Vader was more powerful than Luke, I have to agree with Tune here, why else would he want Luke as an apprentice?

 

I'd say crushing even bigger objects needs more force power than throwing several senate pods.

 

1. Yes. Prime Vader would do that when we take what we've learned from new material into account.

 

2. I think there's a possiblity it wouldn't even come to a force duel. Remember Yoda vs Dooku lightsaber duel and remember Anakin vs Dooku duel. And we know now that Vader is stronger than ROTS Anakin and faster than Palpatine to deny his attack against someone else. If it would come to a force duel, Vader's feats definetely exceed Yoda's.

 

I said Vader didn't want to destroy the Emperor, until he found out the truth about Luke.

 

As for Palpatine's desire to replace Vader, it wasn't directly about the bits of good in Vader. Those bits made Palpatine worry about the prophecy of the Chosen one destroying the sith and Palpatine acknowledges Vader's unnatural birth in the novel Tarkin. That's why although it would probably even harder for Palpatine to erase the good from Luke in case he turned to the dark side, Vader's fate was the thing he really worried about. We can see it throught the events of Lords of the Sith. Introducing him as "Irluuk", "Fate" in old Sith tongue to the girl was a good sign of it. Palpatine definetely didn't think Luke would be a prophetic danger to him like Vader was.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Permaximum

[cs_zoltan]

Would "handily defeated" be better?

 

No, he never actually defeated Grievous. Fisto took one of his sabers, they dueled then the Magnaguards came.

[PadsterPwns]

No, he never actually defeated Grievous. Fisto took one of his sabers, they dueled then the Magnaguards came.

Fisto still beat him in a lightsaber duel. He also had the advantage for practically all of their fight though I'll be the first to admit that there were environmental factors that Fisto abused which Grievous couldn't. With that being said though Fisto still beat him.

[cs_zoltan]

Fisto still beat him in a lightsaber duel. He also had the advantage for practically all of their fight though I'll be the first to admit that there were environmental factors that Fisto abused which Grievous couldn't. With that being said though Fisto still beat him.

 

Really? Link the moment when Fisto won.

[PadsterPwns]

Really? Link the moment when Fisto won.

I'll rephrase it, he didn't win but he was pushing Grievous back to the extent that he had to get his Magnaguards to intervene. Fisto had the advantage the entire fight and Grievous had no reason to be holding back so I'd infer that if they had continued without the interference Fisto would have won.

[cs_zoltan]

I'll rephrase it, he didn't win but he was pushing Grievous back to the extent that he had to get his Magnaguards to intervene. Fisto had the advantage the entire fight and Grievous had no reason to be holding back so I'd infer that if they had continued without the interference Fisto would have won.

 

True, but that's neither stomp nor defeating handily.

[Rhyltran]

True, but that's neither stomp nor defeating handily.

 

 

Grievous was clearly in trouble. I would say that if the magna guards didn't come Grievous was about to be destroyed. Fisto was playing with him like a cat would play with a mouse. He didn't really abuse environmental factors much either. Only early on in their fight. If you watch the scene play out you'll see after that he catches grievous lightsabers with his own, briefly talks to him, and proceeds to disarm him casually. Dodges a few attacks, uses the force to knock him to the floor, walks towards him casually. Grievous gets up, continues to fight, to get pushed back. Catches both of fisto's lightsabers barely avoiding getting hit and has a worried expression on his face. Then the magna guards jump into the fight. Grievous was losing and Fisto didn't really look like he was being pushed that hard.

 

I would word it like this.

 

Padster claims: Grievous was defeated handily. That's not accurate as you mentioned the fight didn't finish.

 

Correct Assessment: Based on the video in question there's good evidence that Grievous probably would have lost handily if the magna guards didn't enter the fray. There is no evidence that this fight could have gone either way. Grievous was losing. Fisto didn't seem concerned. The verdict? Not good.

 

That being said TC? Here's the problem. You have no evidence that Vader is more powerful than Sidious. Yes Vader moved faster than him in the novel it was also brought up that Sidious was holding back. Lucas stated Vader reached 80% of Sidious potential. The fact that some of their displays are close would make sense as there's only a 20% difference between them. So far Lucas quote hasn't been contradicted. Remember you did use a quote by Lucas earlier in another thread under the same vein "It hasn't been contradicted." Can you provide irrefutable evidence that Vader is more powerful than Sidious?

Edited January 11, 2016 by Rhyltran