The Most Powerful Force Users in the Galaxy (CANON)

[ConVallian]

You're forgetting the fact that the fully trained Luke couldn't resist Palpatine's tormenting lightning even for a moment while Vader who was extremely vulnerable to lightning didn't even hesitate for one moment while Palpatine was reasonably going all-out with his lightning against Vader. I believe one of the most powerful sith lords of all time could have done something to prevent his death if he could. Like how Vader survived in Mustafar and how he controllled the Son and the Daughter, at extreme situations Vader had shown great power. If only grabbing Palpatine with a physically strong one hand means the end for him, the force is a joke. However that's not the case and noone but Vader could kill Palpatine at that moment.

 

I don't think Yoda and Obi-Wan sent an inexperienced Luke against Vader and the Emperor in the same time with the hope of he kills both of them. In the recent TFA novelization Snoke says that if Vader didn't show sentiment and killed his son, the Empire would have prevailed. Snoke worded it like Vader had the power to kill either Luke or Palpatine and he gave into his emotion and chose to kill Palpatine. It wasn't a matter of if Vader could or not it was a matter of Vader's choice. Yoda and Obi-Wan probably sensed Vader had a big role to play in the final confrontation between Luke, the Emperor and him. Otherwise it would be a suicide to sent Luke against both of them.

 

Dont forget though, Mortis was a Force planet so his powers and ability to use the force were amplified. As for the whole palpatine thing that was the only way to finish the original story with a nice a tidy ending. Lucas wasnt thinking strongest vs who is not he was just telling the story

[Permaximum]

Dont forget though, Mortis was a Force planet so his powers and ability to use the force were amplified. As for the whole palpatine thing that was the only way to finish the original story with a nice a tidy ending. Lucas wasnt thinking strongest vs who is not he was just telling the story

 

That's true but those materials are everything we have atm. Unless someone from Disney makes a statement, we'll analyze what's said and done in the canon.

[Permaximum]

The OP now includes an updated Star Wars Canon Timeline. It's nice to see all canon material there in a chronological order.

 

SW Canon Timeline

Edited January 6, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

You're forgetting the fact that the fully trained Luke couldn't resist Palpatine's tormenting lightning even for a moment while Vader who was extremely vulnerable to lightning didn't even hesitate for one moment while Palpatine was reasonably going all-out with his lightning against Vader. I believe one of the most powerful sith lords of all time could have done something to prevent his death if he could. Like how Vader survived in Mustafar and how he controllled the Son and the Daughter, at extreme situations Vader had shown great power. If only grabbing Palpatine with a physically strong one hand means the end for him, the force is a joke. However that's not the case and noone but Vader could kill Palpatine at that moment.

 

I don't think Yoda and Obi-Wan sent an inexperienced Luke against Vader and the Emperor in the same time with the hope of he kills both of them. In the recent TFA novelization Snoke says that if Vader didn't show sentiment and killed his son, the Empire would have prevailed. Snoke worded it like Vader had the power to kill either Luke or Palpatine and he gave into his emotion and chose to kill Palpatine. It wasn't a matter of if Vader could or not it was a matter of Vader's choice. Yoda and Obi-Wan probably sensed Vader had a big role to play in the final confrontation between Luke, the Emperor and him. Otherwise it would be a suicide to sent Luke against both of them.

 

So much wrong here.

 

First Obi-wan and Yoda....

 

Obi-wan: "send me to kill the emperor, I will not kill Anakin."

Yoda: "Powerful enough to face this Darth Sidious, you are not."

 

right here Obi-wan is the reluctant one to kill Vader, and Yoda is saying "destroy the sith we must"

 

 

Yoda: "once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice"

 

(I put emphasis on Forever, but so did Yoda so its appropriate.)

 

Luke: "I cant do it Ben, I cant kill my own father"

Ben: "then the emperor has already won."

 

now Obi-wan is on board with Yoda and the "kill Vader" idea.

 

They didnt even intend to tell Luke Vader was his father, and every line they say from the time Anakin falls all the way to the end of RotJ says there is no redemption for some one that falls. I am actually kind of tired of people undermining Luke's decision and then later Vader's decision. Vader "had the power" to kill Luke or Palpatine, in that line that he could choose to stand there and watch as Palpatine killed him, or he could stop Palpatine. Snoke's conversation had nothing to do with fighting, it had everything to do with Choice. They sent Luke with the intent to kill Vader and Palpatine. Luke decided to throw down his weapon, to choose a different path, to potentially sacrifice himself to ensure the galaxy could continue on, to ignore both his masters and Palpatines urge to kill Vader. In doing so he could not fight palpatine, thus Vader's decision gains meaning. If Luke hadn't thrown down his weapon then Vader would not have been the one with the power to decide the fate of Luke or the Emperor.

 

Also as far as I know there is no canon material that suggests Vader's Suite is vulnerable to lightning and considering how much he has had to endure, I would not be surprised if the reason he could stand it and Luke couldnt was a high pain threshold/ lack of some nerve groups thanks to being burned to a crisp on a volcano/ possible that mechanical limbs in star wars listen to what he wants them to do regardless of the pain he is in. There are all kind of ???? factors there. (just adding on one more factor, maybe Palpatine being above him and Vader being behind him meant that he wasnt getting the full front of it like Luke was thus it was not as powerful to begin with... why else would have approached from behind, again remember this is "canon" Star wars, in which no one has really ever shot lightning BEHIND them... except the emperor himself.)

 

 

Some other peoples thoughts that can in some way explain some of my thought process.

Edited January 6, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

You even contradict yourself in your post. I have to be honest. Yoda and Obi-Wan thing was my assumption albeit a strong one. Here's why you contradict yourself and my assumption was a strong one.

 

1. Yoda did not want Obi-Wan who was a Jedi Master and a Council member to face Palpatine because he wasn't strong enough for it. Although he was strong enough to almost kill Anakin - the real chosen one who had 15-20 years of training and he was full with dark side of the force at that point.

 

2. You even gave a quote about it.

 

3. But somehow you believe Yoda and Obi-Wan sent Luke who had a 3-year traning and never defeated a strong opponent to face the Emperor and Vader at the same time to kill them both. Yes, Yoda's and Obi-Wan's words sounded like that but remember Yoda warned Luke about the Powers of the Emperor. But they were not the combat Powers he warned Luke about. He warned about turning to dark side like his father and suffer his fate eventually because of his powers .

 

4. As you know, Luke did not go to a fight there. Yoda and Obi-Wan were strong enough to forsee or even predict it.

 

5. In reality, this is the problem between the prequels and the originals. Lucas intended Yoda and Obi-Wan to send Luke to battle in the OT, I believe that. In the end Luke wouldn't be powerful enough to withstand the Emperor but he could bring his father back to the light thus he would be saved by Vader's return to the light. This was probably Lucas' story. However in the PT, Yoda became wiser suddenly and didn't even send Obi-Wan to face the Emperor alone.

 

6. We're trying to clean this mess and make a sense out of this.

 

7. Your lightning comment is comical. Even in the Star Wars galaxy, there are some "universal" rules apply. It's simple logic. Do we need a confirmation on everything such as if humans there eat, sleep or if lightning hurts flesh and burns mechanical parts?

Edited January 7, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

You even contradict yourself in your post. I have to be honest. Yoda and Obi-Wan thing was my assumption albeit a strong one. Here's why you contradict yourself and my assumption was a strong one.

 

1. Yoda did not want Obi-Wan who was a Jedi Master and a Council member to face Palpatine because he wasn't strong enough for it. Although he was strong enough to almost kill Anakin - the real chosen one who had 15-20 years of training and he was full with dark side of the force at that point.

 

2. You even gave a quote about it.

 

3. But somehow you believe Yoda and Obi-Wan sent Luke who had a 3-year traning and never defeated a strong opponent to face the Emperor and Vader at the same time to kill them both. Yes, Yoda's and Obi-Wan's words sounded like that but remember Yoda warned Luke about the Powers of the Emperor. But they were not the combat Powers he warned Luke about. He warned about turning to dark side like his father and suffer his fate eventually because of his powers .

 

4. As you know, Luke did not go to a fight there. Yoda and Obi-Wan were strong enough to forsee or even predict it.

 

5. In reality, this is the problem between the prequels and the originals. Lucas intended Yoda and Obi-Wan to send Luke to battle in the OT, I believe that. In the end Luke wouldn't be powerful enough to withstand the Emperor but he could bring his father back to the light thus he would be saved by Vader's return to the light. This was probably Lucas' story. However in the PT, Yoda became wiser suddenly and didn't even send Obi-Wan to face the Emperor alone.

 

6. We're trying to clean this mess and make a sense out of this.

 

7. Your lightning comment is comical. Even in the Star Wars galaxy, there are some "universal" rules apply. It's simple logic. Do we need a confirmation on everything such as if humans there eat, sleep or if lightning hurts flesh and burns mechanical parts?

 

Nothing contradictory about it.

 

Contradictory

mutually opposed or inconsistent.

 

This would mean something I said would have to oppose something else I said, or be in some way inconsistent with what I said. which if you look closely never happens.

1. and 2. This is correct there is nothing wrong with this, it also 100% shows that Yoda believes the only way to beat the sith is to destroy them, which 100% supports the claim I made about Yoda wanting to destroy Vader not turn him back to the light and works perfectly along side his other quotes such as "Forever will it dominate your destiny" showing that he 100% does not believe in redemption there is nothing Contradictory about this.

 

3. That's what they wanted him to do, "i can not kill my own father" "then the emperor has already won" Luke says he CANT KILL and Obi-wan Responds with That's your ONLY option. Apparently Luke was a fast learner, and/or they gave him a huge crash course, but that's the story that's what they told him, it doesnt matter if you think that is dumb... that's the story. Luke achieved enough power to take on the Emperor and Vader after 3 years of training. again nothing contradictory

 

4. He went there to die, and Neither Obi-wan or Yoda were strong enough to predict any of that. "difficult to see, always in motion is the future". Yoda couldnt even see if Leia and Han would die on Bespin let alone what would happen a year later, and AGAIN we have Yoda telling Luke "when gone am I the last of the Jedi will you be, pass on what you have learned" ALONG SIDE him not intending to tell Luke Vader was his father, AND him telling him that once some one starts down the Dark path FOREVER will it dominate their destiny. EVERYTHING Yoda says is telling Luke to Kill Vader and I shouldnt have to tell you what Obi-wan told Luke in this matter. So this idea that they "Forsaw" him turning his father back to the light has 0 legs to stand on, in any of the canon continuity. Is this a Canon list or a "I do what ever I want list, damned what actually happens in the movies". Because what happened was Obi-wan and Yoda told Luke to Kill Vader, and Kill the Emperor and Luke decided a different action, do not take away THE Choice that defined the end of RotJ. You are essentially trying add Lore that was never shown nor said This is a CANON list not a Fanon list, nothing contradictory.

 

5. There is no problem, the problem is you thinking that Luke wasnt stronger then Obi-wan. The problem is the group of fans who have a story in THEIR heads and cant just sit down and enjoy a Fantasy world, that follows Fantasy Rules. Yoda was just as wise in the OT as he was in PT so if he Sent Luke to Kill the emperor, that means he thought Luke MIGHT be strong enough. Obviously still nothing contradicting what I said.

 

6. there is no mess to be cleansed, the mess is the fans that again take a fantasy world a little to seriously, instead of looking at it for what it is... a Fantasy world, that again follows fantasy rules. Your rules are meaningless, if you want to make it a canon list then you take every that happens at face value instead of trying to "fix" what does not need to be fixed. We dont need more special editions.

 

7. Star Wars is a Highly advanced society with Machines far beyond our current capabilities. Thus thinking that they may have some way to make them resistant to lightning especially since we see machines are stormy planets such as Kamino all the time, is in no way far fetched. You also did not cover how Vader was only hit full force by it AFTER he through the emperor over the edge until then he was getting the side arcs of it while the Emperor himself took the full front of it. Vader was taking about as much lightning as Windu was in Episode III, maybe a little more and that's it.

 

Ultimately the only thing my statements contradict with is YOUR view point, not what actually happens.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[Linyivee]

Regardless about what Disney and LucasFilms desires, each fan has the freedom and liberty to pick and choose. Lucas once considered Timothy Zhan's work as canon. *shurgs* Timothy Zhan, while under George's instructions, created the Skywalker/Solo family tree. Even though Disney is now in control, what they consider canon is not law. You cannot get arrested for being creatively expressive.

 

I personally think people are afraid to read books. Since some people are not willing to read, they are not able to go beyond the movies. Reading "Star Wars: Legends" is similar to going to college. As a result of being exposed to different subjects, students become more aware of the world. People who are worldly can intellectually approach a subject from different angles.

 

Religious fundamentalist and "Star Wars" movie purists are the same. Narrow minded, limited in creative thinking, lack of analytical thinking, lack of an imagination, lack of exposure, etc... Science, philosophy, and religion can exist in the same universe; however, the way they connect is through personal interpretation.

 

As far as I am concerned, the movie and expanded universe should reside in two different worlds. Disney's BIGGEST mistake was to merge both worlds. Disney should have just kept their mouths shut.

 

If you limit your self to the movies, you might as well go out and promote: book burning, art banning, censorship, politically correctness, etc... Communism/Socialism sucks.

 

I personally love novels by Timothy Zhan and Drew Karpyshyn.

 

People need to become free thinkers and creatively expressive.

 

I could careless about what Disney thinks.

 

Do you allow Disney to pick what books you read?

Do you allow Disney to pick what clothes you wear?

Do you allow Disney to pick the color of your car?

Do you allow Disney to tell you how to style your hair?

Do you allow Disney to control what games you play?

 

Get a life folks.

 

Use your damn imagination.

 

"Star Wars" is a franchise based upon a 'fictional' world, which does not exist in real life.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Linyivee

[ConVallian]

7. Your lightning comment is comical. Even in the Star Wars galaxy, there are some "universal" rules apply. It's simple logic. Do we need a confirmation on everything such as if humans there eat, sleep or if lightning hurts flesh and burns mechanical parts?

 

Human Jedi eat? pics or didnt happen:D

 

But yeah Darth Vader literally lives in a life support suit ,everyone knows when electricity gets involved in mechanics it's over. Someone has to lack common sense or refuse to take RotJ into account the fact that Lightning + Vader's suit=dead vader. That doesnt take away Vader's immense power, but thanks to the suit that is just his weakness. Kill the suit you kill the man.

 

And it's officially stated in the new canon Sidious is the most powerful sith lord to ever live, that includes Vader

[tunewalker]

Human Jedi eat? pics or didnt happen:D

 

But yeah Darth Vader literally lives in a life support suit ,everyone knows when electricity gets involved in mechanics it's over. Someone has to lack common sense or refuse to take RotJ into account the fact that Lightning + Vader's suit=dead vader. That doesnt take away Vader's immense power, but thanks to the suit that is just his weakness. Kill the suit you kill the man.

 

And it's officially stated in the new canon Sidious is the most powerful sith lord to ever live, that includes Vader

 

The point I was making about the lightning, was that he didnt really take the full brunt of the attack. He grabbed Sidious from behind, where the lightning wasnt coming from. Sidious's own body acted as a shield against the attack, while Vader took the off shoots of it, he didnt take the full force of it until Sidious was over the edge, and the moment he TOOK the full force of it he collapsed and everything of his systems fell, but until he took the full brunt of the attack he was still able to move. Unlike Luke who took the full brunt of it from start to finish.

[ConVallian]

The point I was making about the lightning, was that he didnt really take the full brunt of the attack. He grabbed Sidious from behind, where the lightning wasnt coming from. Sidious's own body acted as a shield against the attack, while Vader took the off shoots of it, he didnt take the full force of it until Sidious was over the edge, and the moment he TOOK the full force of it he collapsed and everything of his systems fell, but until he took the full brunt of the attack he was still able to move. Unlike Luke who took the full brunt of it from start to finish.

 

I see the point youre trying to make. but this all comes down to how lucas wrote the story. Vader had to die sacrificing himself to save his son and thats how it happened, i dont think full frontal lightning is any less effective than lightning from behind he was still getting shocked with it.

 

Also from the argument from earlier on the whole obi wan and yoda and luke thing..being strong enough to defeat someone doesn't always mean being stronger than someone, Anakin was officially stated to be stronger than obi when they fought but obi was skilled enough to defeat him.

 

Also they didnt "send" luke off to battle Vader and Sidious at the same time, they're main concern was dealing with Vader first if you recall. Yoda said you must face him again.Whether he meant face him right now or was just mentioning the fact he had to fight him again. And Luke didnt go off to fight Vader the first thing he did when he left Dagobah was join the Alliance in a mission to destroy the death star and it just happened Vader was there. Luke wasnt looking Vader at this point. when luke went to confront him he wasnt even thinking of the emperor or killing Vader he wanted to convert him. They didn't know the Emperor was there till later, and the way things happened from there just played itself out

[tunewalker]

I see the point youre trying to make. but this all comes down to how lucas wrote the story. Vader had to die sacrificing himself to save his son and thats how it happened, i dont think full frontal lightning is any less effective than lightning from behind he was still getting shocked with it.

 

Also from the argument from earlier on the whole obi wan and yoda and luke thing..being strong enough to defeat someone doesn't always mean being stronger than someone, Anakin was officially stated to be stronger than obi when they fought but obi was skilled enough to defeat him.

 

Also they didnt "send" luke off to battle Vader and Sidious at the same time, they're main concern was dealing with Vader first if you recall. Yoda said you must face him again.Whether he meant face him right now or was just mentioning the fact he had to fight him again. And Luke didnt go off to fight Vader the first thing he did when he left Dagobah was join the Alliance in a mission to destroy the death star and it just happened Vader was there. Luke wasnt looking Vader at this point. when luke went to confront him he wasnt even thinking of the emperor or killing Vader he wanted to convert him. They didn't know the Emperor was there till later, and the way things happened from there just played itself out

 

The point is he wasnt getting shocked by the full force, only a little of the lightning, kind of like Windu was still feeling it even though it was hitting his saber, Windu was able to fight back so we shouldnt think that Vader wouldnt be able to.

 

Finally, yes they did. Yes they did not Mean for him to neccissarily go straight to Vader AND the Emperor and face them head on in a 2v1 fight, and YES just because he is ABLE to beat them doesnt make him more powerful, that is 100% true, and needs to be taken into account in a lot more of these debate threads. Skills can be different then power. However there intent is still Luke must face AND KILL both Vader and the Emperor. In Obi-wan's and Yoda's mind there is no redemption there is no "other way". When Yoda says "no more training do you require" he means Luke has the neccisary skills and strength to pull it off, as long as he doesnt "underestimate the powers of the emperor" if he does then he will likely get severely injured as well as seduced by the power the Dark Side offers "suffer your fathers fate you will".

 

In the context of what Obi-wan and Yoda wanted, it doesnt matter what Luke DOES. That's 2 seperate topics, as what Luke decides to do is GO AGAINST his master's wishes to attempt to redeem his father, and possibly sacrifice himself (something clearly Yoda did not want since he told Luke to pass on what he learned) and trust his friends to blow up the death star and take care of everything from there on with out him since the destruction of the death star meant the destruction of Luke, Vader, and the Emperor in one swoop, but through it all he still had hope that his father could be redeemed when EVERYONE else was saying other wise. Episode VII spoilers. In the end Luke was the one proven in the right and did what every one said was impossible, and if he didnt he would have died along with the Emperor AND Vader on the death star, but because of his ability to harness anger, and yet still reject the dark side, to show vader a way back to the light, he redeemed his father and everything worked out for the better for him.

 

Even Episode VII suggests this with the way Han and Leia and Ben all see Vader. "there is to much Vader in him" Kylo's fan boying over him so on and so forth, even 30 years later and with Luke likely telling them all what happened, they still see Vader as this ultimate evil kind of guy.

 

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

Human Jedi eat? pics or didnt happen:D

 

And it's officially stated in the new canon Sidious is the most powerful sith lord to ever live, that includes Vader

 

Pics or didn't happen . It was Legends and even it was retconned by Luceno and Lucas in 2012 via the novel "Darth Plagueis" and Plagueis was said to be the most powerful sith lord ever.

 

On the contrary, here's a quote on Vader from a recenttly released canon book "Lords of the Sith".

 

"He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birtthed insight."

 

This means the old idea that Anakin or Vader had lost his potential after Mustafar is no longer true. On the contrary his suffering and hate made him even stronger in the dark side of the force. When he reaches or gets close to his potential we know he's the most powerful forcer user and it's not even close.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Permaximum

[Permaximum]

That's what they wanted him to do, "i can not kill my own father" "then the emperor has already won" Luke says he CANT KILL and Obi-wan Responds with That's your ONLY option. Apparently Luke was a fast learner, and/or they gave him a huge crash course, but that's the story that's what they told him, it doesnt matter if you think that is dumb... that's the story. Luke achieved enough power to take on the Emperor and Vader after 3 years of training. again nothing contradictory

 

The idea that Luke achived such a power to defeat a prime Vader and Palpatine at the same time in 3 years, must be one of the stupid SW ideas since even Obi-Wan could defeat the chosen one that birthed by the Force and had tremendous potential who had been in training for 15 years. Yet, Obi-Wan wasn't strong enough to face the emperor alone.

 

Apperantly you will hold onto this stupid argument no matter what.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

The idea that Luke achived such a power to defeat a prime Vader and Palpatine at the same time in 3 years, must be one of the stupid SW ideas since even Obi-Wan could defeat the chosen one that birthed by the Force and had tremendous potential who had been in training for 15 years. Yet, Obi-Wan wasn't strong enough to face the emperor alone.

 

Apperantly you will hold onto this stupid argument no matter what.

 

Its the original Idea, its STAR WARS, its the idea that started it all, welcome to Star Wars. if you dont like it you dont Like star wars Canon, cus that's what happened. It wasnt MY idea, it was what was written on the page, it was what the screen play told us, its the thing called star wars that I like to watch and enjoy.

 

hell further proof of this we know palpatine is the most powerful dark sider, we also know he replaces his apprentices anytime some one surpasses that apprentice, and ONLY after they have surpassed that apprentice as he wants the most powerful apprentice available. He even CALLS Luke powerful in RotJ "your hate has made you powerful" and asks him to join his side, showing he absolutly 100% surpassed Vader, no questions asked, no room for debate.

 

Saying Luke was not more powerful then Vader at the end of RotJ is like saying the Millenium Falcon completed the Kessel run in 14 parsecs and not 12, which to be fair, at least there is a reason to say 14 unlike with denying what Luke achieved in RotJ in which there IS no logical reason other then blatant fanboying and trying to fix a problem that doesnt exist. Its science FANTASY... The Force is a Mystical Energy field, it doesnt neccisarily have to make 100% real world sense, and power levels are arbitrary to the plot. Not to mention the other "stupid idea" is ALSO star wars canon, that's what happened, yes Star Wars can be dumb some times, but that doesnt mean that when you are making a "canon" list you just make up your own arbitrary rules, you have to follow what HAPPENS in the story, and both of those things happen.

 

The movies go out of their way to hammer in the idea that Luke> Vader at the end of RotJ and that, should he embrace his power, he could even wipe out the emperor, but to do so would mean to become an even greater evil then the emperor, which is why he throws down his sword, better to die the hero then see himself become the villian.

 

Edit: if you REALLY need something to "Fix" all of this whole "why isnt the chosen one so much more powerful, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH" Anakin does Jokingly say "I am a slow learner." I always took it as a jest, but if you really feel the need to "Fix" what happened, there is your explination and your Fix, and Luke is just a really fast learner/ got a much more direct crash course.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Pics or didn't happen . It was Legends and even it was retconned by Luceno and Lucas in 2012 via the novel "Darth Plagueis" and Plagueis was said to be the most powerful sith lord ever.

 

On the contrary, here's a quote on Vader from a recenttly released canon book "Lords of the Sith".

 

"He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birtthed insight."

 

This means the old idea that Anakin or Vader had lost his potential after Mustafar is no longer true. On the contrary his suffering and hate made him even stronger in the dark side of the force. When he reaches or gets close to his potential we know he's the most powerful forcer user and it's not even close.

 

Yep, which is why its even MORE impressive that Luke beats him and surpasses his power, according to.... everyone.... Sidious (most powerful dark sider wants to replace Vader with Luke), Vader (acknowledges his son's power and is bested by his son.), and Yoda (sent Luke to kill Vader, and later the Emperor, if not both)...

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[ConVallian]

Pics or didn't happen . It was Legends and even it was retconned by Luceno and Lucas in 2012 via the novel "Darth Plagueis" and Plagueis was said to be the most powerful sith lord ever.

 

On the contrary, here's a quote on Vader from a recenttly released canon book "Lords of the Sith".

 

"He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birtthed insight."

 

This means the old idea that Anakin or Vader had lost his potential after Mustafar is no longer true. On the contrary his suffering and hate made him even stronger in the dark side of the force. When he reaches or gets close to his potential we know he's the most powerful forcer user and it's not even close.

In the same novel you quoted it states Sidious is the most powerful, and its a canon novel. And yes i agree when Vader gets PO'd his power his amazing, but still never reached sidious' level. And yes i agree even as Vader he COULD reach levels higher than anyone else, but the fact is he didn't . If the 2 actually fought the winner would be sidious every time

[Permaximum]

@tunewalker

 

Luke would't even defeat Dooku let alone Vader. You can't pretend prequels didn't happen. Also, Sidious was not the most powerful dark sider. Darth Vader is shown to be more powerful than Sidious. I don't want to continue on this Luke debate because you're clearly a fanboy of him.

 

@ConVallian

 

No. There's no statement such as that in that novel.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

@tunewalker

 

Luke would't even defeat Dooku let alone Vader. You can't pretend prequels didn't happen. Also, Sidious was not the most powerful dark sider. Darth Vader is shown to be more powerful than Sidious. I don't want to continue on this Luke debate because you're clearly a fanboy of him.

 

@ConVallian

 

No. There's no statement such as that in that novel.

 

He DID defeat Vader, here look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A. I am not pretending ANYTHING didnt happen. I acknowledge AND USED the Prequels quote to support my claims. I used the star wars SAGA all 6 episodes. Vader is not shown to be more powerful then Sidious. No one ever claims him to be. You are ignoring THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY, BOTH TRILOGIES HAPPEN. If Luke Can beat Vader as he DOES in episode VI. Then he STOMPS Dooku, it doesnt matter how "flashy" things are, that's like saying Kylo Ren is the most powerful dark sider cus he stops a bullet in mid air, and can mind probe people with out tech, which Vader never did in the Original trilogy. That's called tech evolving over time, thus what we are seeing is just more advanced visual effects and expanding of the mythos and "power scaling" to make things seem more impressive. Just cus their was a graphics over hall doesnt mean the person is more powerful. The story is still the story. Episodes 1-7 ALL HAPPEN, you cant ignore ANY OF IT. Anakin BEAT Dooku, and thus Replaced him as he was "younger and more powerful" then LUKE BEAT Vader and the emperor tries to replace Vader with Luke because Luke became more powerful.

 

Why do you ignore all of star wars. Your not "following" the prequels, your ignoring ALL OF IT. From Episode 1-7 all of Clone wars, all of Rebels, every book that's come out, everything that could be considered Star Wars or "continuity" you are ignoring everything for 1 quote about Midichlorians WHICH ARE NOT THE FORCE, and a Prophecy that people straight out say "miss read could have been". Just because 1 prophecy you want to ignore everything that happens in the entirety of star wars from top to bottom. That's beyond stupid... this is not "Canon" if you can not acknowledge Return of the Jedi.

 

Edit: all things that happen in star wars are true. All statements in star wars are true. The explination that allows all of it to be true, however unlikely, MUST be the true answer. When you remove all impossibilities, what ever you are left with, HOWEVER IMPROBABLE must be the truth. We know for a Fact that the Emperor only replaces his apprentice with some one who has proven themselves to be more powerful. We know for a fact that Vader became more powerful after the suit meaning Vader is more powerful then Anakin, who we know was more powerful then Dooku, thus when Palpatine tries to replace Vader with Luke we know for a Fact that Luke is more powerful then Vader, it doesnt matter how improbable it is for some one to pass them in such short time, these are all FACTS that happened, thus it MUST be true. You cant dispute or Eliminate facts. Fact Luke Surpassed Vader, we can know this from observing the FACT that Luke BEAT Vader AND the FACT that the Emperor wanted to replace Vader the same way he replaced Dooku.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

Vader wasn't going all out at his son. Especially in episode VI he was conflicted, confused and he loved Luke. All sane people know this.

 

Sidious was never stated as the most powerful sith lord or something like that in any canon material. You guys confuse Legends with the Canon. Sidious was a sith lord that was defeated by Windu and he was the sith lord that tried to escape from a fight with Yoda and eventually killed by one-handed weakened Vader. He didn't even have the strength to kill his master in a duel so he killed him in his sleep despite the rule of two demanded a duel for the stronger to survive.

 

Sidious' real strength lied in his machinations and pure evil mind.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

Vader wasn't going all out at his son. He was conflicted, confused and he loved Luke. All sane people know this.

 

Sidious was never stated as the most powerful sith lord or something like that in any canon material. You guys confuse Legends with the Canon. Sidious was a sith lord that was defeated by Windu and he was the sith lord that tried to escape from a fight with Yoda and eventually killed by one-handed weakened Vader. He didn't even have the strength to kill his master in a duel so he killed him in his sleep despite the rule of two demanded a duel for the stronger to survive.

 

Sidious' real strength lied in his machinations and pure evil mind.

 

All sane people know Luke beat Vader, and that Palpatine tried to replace Vader with Luke... which means Luke's more powerful. Ignoring this is pure stupidity.\

 

"Insane" people:

And film critics and the like the world over. I guess that makes you the only "sane" person in the world... and that's how you know you are insane.

 

Edit: the fundemental problem with the argument that Luke only beat Vader because Vader was holding back, is that Luke was ALSO holding AND the Emperor himself wanted to replace Vader with Luke, something he only ever did when someone surpasses his former apprentice. Because as he STATES in episode III he WANTS some one to be more powerful then him. So it explains "how luke can win" but it does not explain why the Emperor wants Luke instead of Vader. The only explination is the original explination and that is Luke is stronger other wise Luke would have beaten Vader, the Emperor would have chastized Vader for holding back, and would have had no desire to gain Luke as his underling, as a replacement for Vader. If you wish to reconcile it you have to reconcile both which the only way to do that is to accept the facts.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

All sane people know Luke beat Vader, and that Palpatine tried to replace Vader with Luke... which means Luke's more powerful. Ignoring this is pure stupidity.\

 

"Insane" people:

And film critics and the like the world over. I guess that makes you the only "sane" person in the world... and that's how you know you are insane.

 

LOL. Palpatine was trying to replace Vader since a few years after the events of ROTS. He realized he couldn't erase the good and light from Vader completely and started to worry about the prophecy and Vader's destiny. He worried Vader would turn on him sooner than later. He made him do mindless slaughter of innocent people over an over to achieve he can never be turned from the dark side. If you followed the new canon material you would've known this by now. There have been a lot of stuff especially on this issue in Tarkin, Lords of the Sith and Darth Vader comics.

 

By ensuring Luke becomes his new apprentice he wouldn't have to worry about the fate of Vader and he would get an apprentice with the potential of coming close to Vader's power.

 

I suggest you read more recently released canon stuff, then we can continue on this debate.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Permaximum

[tunewalker]

LOL. Palpatine was trying to replace Vader since a few years after the events of ROTS. He realized he couldn't erase the good and light from Vader completely and started to worry about the prophecy and Vader's destiny. He worried Vader would turn on him sooner than later. He made him do mindless slaughter of innocent people over an over to achieve he can never be turned from the dark side. If you followed the new canon material you would've known this by now. There have been a lot of stuff especially on this issue in Tarkin, Lords of the Sith and Darth Vader comics.

 

By ensuring Luke becomes his new apprentice he wouldn't have to worry about the fate of Vader and he would get an apprentice with the potential of coming close to Vader's power.

 

I suggest you read more recently released canon stuff, then we can continue on this debate.

 

He still only replaces his apprentice when a stronger one shows up. He WANTED to replace Dooku from the start, but only did so when Anakin Surpassed Dooku. He originally wanted Luke destroyed as he was a danger to BOTH of them. Only when he showed enough strength to beat Vader did he finally WANT Luke, and when Luke refused it was an easy decision to just kill him. Luke was way more "steeped" in the light side, you even said yourself Palpatine had Vader do all kinds of things to make sure Vader would not turn. He wouldnt want to try to do that again, the only way he would even consider Luke is if Luke became more powerful. If Vader was "so easy" to replace then he would have done so with one of the inquisitors.

 

None of the new content support the theory that Luke didnt surpass Vader. None of the Old Content supports this. Nothing supports this. You are standing on air and hoping not to fall from gravity.

 

Edit: the only idea this supports is the idea that Vader didnt recieve much if any training from palpatine so all his progress was done on his own, thus that is why he never surpassed palpatine even though he should have, because he didnt. According to Yoda, Palpatine, and Vader he didnt. Vader said he needed Luke to beat the emperor... at least with out dieing (proves it at the end or RotJ where beating the DISTRACTED emperor FROM BEHIND... gets him killed) Yoda said beware the powers of the emperor, not beware the powers of Vader, and Palpatine is still secure in his role as MASTER. Thus making it easier to understand how Luke Surpassed him, because while he was stronger then he was in Episode III he still wasnt much stronger, and Luke had a heavy crash course and was a fast learner.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[Permaximum]

You're clearly skewing the truths in favor of Luke and you contradict yourself more than one time in your posts. I'm done with this stuff. You're clueless on these issues. But I don't know if it's your fanboyism or something else and I don't care.

[tunewalker]

You're clearly skewing the truths in favor of Luke and you contradict yourself more than one time in your posts. I'm done with this stuff. You're clueless on these issues. But I don't know if it's your fanboyism or something else and I don't care.

 

Nothings contradicting anything. No TRUTHS have been squewed only told to you what they are. Truth Luke beat Vader, any one can see this. Truth Yoda and Obi-wan Sent LUke to do just that, any one can see this. Truth Palpatine ONLY ever replaces his apprentice when some one surpasses that student. Truth Palpatine tried to replace Vader with Luke. Everything in Star Wars says this. The only one twisting anything is you.

 

Point out the contradiction, point to the statement that I said that contradicts another statement that I said. I am just giving you the facts. its not my fault you dont like Star Wars, and find the facts dumb. Dont make a "canon" list unless you want to follow canon, and if you ever bother to click on the links I showed you, you may actually have realized this, because Fact is everyone that is half way decent at analyzing a movie and its characters has come to the same conclusion. They didnt need to be asked who is more powerful the answer was self evident, its an argument that never should have been begun, but because idiots like you, like to cling on to midichlorian quote (which isnt the force) and watching the pretty action while missing the rest of the meat and potatoes of the series it started. You are enjoying all the action of the series, and missing the heart, and that's why you cant accept the story for what it is, you are simply blinded by pretty graphics, and by the oh so important sounding words of "chosen one" with out actually paying attention to the story of the chosen one and his legacy. Your Kylo Ren.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[ConVallian]

I don't know anymore. Im with permaxium in the fact that Vader still had potential though it still isn't as much as wouldve been if he wasn't injured. Even in the life support armor he could've been the most powerful. And growing stronger still doesn't mean he still had his original potential.It just means he got stronger.

 

And i take back my statement on Sidious still being the most powerful i got my novels confused .my mistake.

 

But..the issues we have is just an inconsistent writing style of Lucas when comparing the trilogies. Unfortunately Lucas is "tell don't show" kind of guy. He told us Luke is the most powerful Jedi but he also showed a 100 other jedi doing far more impressive feats than him in the PT. I mentioned it another thrad when it comes to force users once you reach a certain level power, when you confront another force user its all determined to how the fights play out. Dooku said he's become more powerful than any jedi. Should we take that as fact just because it was said in a canon movie? even though it's clear he wasn't able to overcome Yoda? And the whole Luke V Vader, that was a pure lightsaber fight, no force powers were being used to a great degree. so how can we say who is more powerful? And its a fact Vader was conflicted when fighting his son. Yoda said Luke was ready, not stronger.

But if you say Vader is more powerful than Sidious, I believe Vader would've tried to kill him after he found out he had a son and Palp lied to him..but he didn't, because he couldn't without help