How much longer until bloodhunt and rishi are brought in line?

[WhiteKing]

Yeah, according to Dulfy's numbers you need about 8000 dps combined to beat enrage on the furball. The droid boss on Korriban needs about 5200 to beat the soft enrage, and considering that it's not that uncommon to have it enter extermination mode...I would indeed say that some action might be in order.

 

On an unrelated note, if you queue for a random GF and get Bloodhunt (or have to drop group for whatever reason), check your mission log for the Group finder daily mission (still marked as lvl 55), you should get it after zoning in at the latest. Once you have that, you can uncheck as many FPs as you like and requeue, you will get the daily done despite GF telling you that you are not eligible for reward.

[Shwarzchild]

Yeah, according to Dulfy's numbers you need about 8000 dps combined to beat enrage on the furball. The droid boss on Korriban needs about 5200 to beat the soft enrage, and considering that it's not that uncommon to have it enter extermination mode...I would indeed say that some action might be in order.

.

 

Just to play devil's advocate for the sake of the debate:

 

Is 8k total really that high? I went and checked the "what are people parsing at at 60" thread and it seems like the average is right around 4 maybe up to 4.2. Count the Tanks dps output, and if the healer throws in some damage it doesn't seem like obtaining 8k is out of reach?

 

Just another question as well: Older flashpoints would have lower dps requirements than new ones, no? I would think that rishi and blood hunt should, from a design stand point, be more demanding since they're the newest.

 

Granted quality of dps could be argued here, and maybe my averages are just too high for a lot of people. I know a guild mate who barely outdoes the tanks most days so maybe there are more of this person than there are of the even 3.5k dps standing around. I don't know. I would like to think that's not the case, and my guild mate is a rarer case.

 

edit: on my drive to the office I was thinking about it, and is this fight more of a heal check than anything? Just curious. Or is it a hybrid dps / heal check?

Edited March 6, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[straseed]

Just to play devil's advocate for the sake of the debate:

 

Is 8k total really that high? I went and checked the "what are people parsing at at 60" thread and it seems like the average is right around 4 maybe up to 4.2. Count the Tanks dps output, and if the healer throws in some damage it doesn't seem like obtaining 8k is out of reach?

 

Just another question as well: Older flashpoints would have lower dps requirements than new ones, no? I would think that rishi and blood hunt should, from a design stand point, be more demanding since they're the newest.

 

Granted quality of dps could be argued here, and maybe my averages are just too high for a lot of people. I know a guild mate who barely outdoes the tanks most days so maybe there are more of this person than there are of the even 3.5k dps standing around. I don't know. I would like to think that's not the case, and my guild mate is a rarer case.

 

edit: on my drive to the office I was thinking about it, and is this fight more of a heal check than anything? Just curious. Or is it a hybrid dps / heal check?

 

4k DPS from most classes requires at least some Best in Slot 192 gear, which can only be acquired from ops. On top of that, this fight is very movement heavy and a total nightmare for melee. My VG tank is good for 1200-1500 single target DPS if I'm able to stand there and not move around.

 

So yeah, the dps check on this boss is dramatically out of whack with the supposed 178 gear requirements.

Edited March 6, 2015 by straseed

[Shwarzchild]

4k DPS from most classes requires at least some Best in Slot 192 gear, which can only be acquired from ops. On top of that, this fight is very movement heavy and a total nightmare for melee. My VG tank is good for 1200-1500 single target DPS if I'm able to stand there and not move around.

 

So yeah, the dps check on this boss is dramatically out of whack with the supposed 178 gear requirements.

 

No doubt I agree that I don't think people could do this in 178 gear. Totally agree with you there. I guess I'm just surprised that DPs values are that low in comm gear. I hate comm gear. Lord do I hate it. I hate the fact that because it has a higher number rating people think it does them good, when in reality it isn't helping them much. False sense of security I guess. Sorry...went off on a tangent. There are a few things that really irk me in game, and one is this insane comm gear that I think hurts players more than helps them. I just legit have no real clue why we need three sets of non set bonus armors. I'd be cool with like the rishi maze if it lead to (if it were like Xenotech from back when) Tionese (obviously from back when too) that were pretty equal but one had set bonus the other didn't being dropped in these flashpoints. But god, to drop just junk that leads to more junk annoys me tremendously. Sorry went from tangent to tangent. That and the group finder man, totally irk me. More than even the attitudes of some pugs which is third on my list. Distant third to those two.

[Dyvim]

Just to play devil's advocate for the sake of the debate:

 

Is 8k total really that high? I went and checked the "what are people parsing at at 60" thread and it seems like the average is right around 4 maybe up to 4.2. Count the Tanks dps output, and if the healer throws in some damage it doesn't seem like obtaining 8k is out of reach?

 

Just another question as well: Older flashpoints would have lower dps requirements than new ones, no? I would think that rishi and blood hunt should, from a design stand point, be more demanding since they're the newest.

 

Granted quality of dps could be argued here, and maybe my averages are just too high for a lot of people. I know a guild mate who barely outdoes the tanks most days so maybe there are more of this person than there are of the even 3.5k dps standing around. I don't know. I would like to think that's not the case, and my guild mate is a rarer case.

 

edit: on my drive to the office I was thinking about it, and is this fight more of a heal check than anything? Just curious. Or is it a hybrid dps / heal check?

 

Those parses are in UBER gear, BIS in many cases...FAR beyond the stated requirements for these AND IN MORE STATIC situations...the movement and potential snares, etc in this encounter will drop those dps numbers like a bad habit...But the thing is, this fight is AN EVERYTHING CHECK. It is a heal check, a dps check (again the adds and their spawn rate is WAY overtuned), a tank check and a WHOLE GROUP movement check.

[Shwarzchild]

Those parses are in UBER gear, BIS in many cases...FAR beyond the stated requirements for these AND IN MORE STATIC situations...the movement and potential snares, etc in this encounter will drop those dps numbers like a bad habit...But the thing is, this fight is AN EVERYTHING CHECK. It is a heal check, a dps check (again the adds and their spawn rate is WAY overtuned), a tank check and a WHOLE GROUP movement check.

 

No need to yell, I'm absolutely in agreement that the gear requirements for all of the hms are wacky. Let's just say we had a group with 186 yavin gear, and that was the requirement, I think that furball probably goes down 6-7 times out of 10.

[psikofunkster]

do you mean sm or hm?

[Shwarzchild]

do you mean sm or hm?

 

hardmode

[Dyvim]

do you mean sm or hm?

 

Its a FP, that is what people seem to be forgetting to factor in...FP, not OPS. FP. HM FP is fundamentally DIFFERENT than a HM Ops. FP are designed to be pugged. They are supposed to be doable in 178 gear.

 

Not only is this not doable in 178 or even 186 gear by your average pug, this is also FAR out of balance with the other 4, even 5 FPs. It needs to be fixed and balanced. There is no rational debate here. Any other position is completely unsupportable given the existing facts.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Dyvim

[WhiteKing]

Just to play devil's advocate for the sake of the debate:

 

Is 8k total really that high? I went and checked the "what are people parsing at at 60" thread and it seems like the average is right around 4 maybe up to 4.2. Count the Tanks dps output, and if the healer throws in some damage it doesn't seem like obtaining 8k is out of reach?

 

Just another question as well: Older flashpoints would have lower dps requirements than new ones, no? I would think that rishi and blood hunt should, from a design stand point, be more demanding since they're the newest.

 

Granted quality of dps could be argued here, and maybe my averages are just too high for a lot of people. I know a guild mate who barely outdoes the tanks most days so maybe there are more of this person than there are of the even 3.5k dps standing around. I don't know. I would like to think that's not the case, and my guild mate is a rarer case.

 

edit: on my drive to the office I was thinking about it, and is this fight more of a heal check than anything? Just curious. Or is it a hybrid dps / heal check?

 

The thing is, all six FPs are packaged into a single "60 HM FPs" category, while one of them contains hard dps check from a different universe than the rest of them. The problem is not the difficulty in and of itself, but the recommended gear for it (which is the same for the required 8000 and 5200 dps checks) and the fact that GF is basically a lottery. There is a six hundred pages long thread next door that deals with the kind people GF can spit at you.

 

The best you can get is a person who has done the content and is familiar with their spec above the usual random button pressing. You can get the old 60s done with that. Rakata can be entirely done with HK (in Yavin gear) as the second dps. Funnily enough, it can be easier with a companion dps/tank, as several mechanics do not apply to them (companion doesn't get targeted by Rakata Chief's molotovs, doesn't get damaged by second boss's heavy telegraphed attack at all, no damage from bonus boss's unstable barrier) and the cherry on top - I have seen HK roll away from Darok when he got the circle, which was a greater display of skill than some GF starlets are capable of.

 

Compare with first boss of Bloodhunt, where there is zero room for carrying, unless one dps is just mindblowingly good (in which case, the chances of them pugging it are slim in the first place). Requiring a 50%(!!) dps increase without increasing the recommended gear level and putting it together with the rest of the 60 HMs is bad design at best.

 

So yeah, increase the enrage timer, lower the HP of adds, remove one add, make adds spawn at longer intervals, make a separate category for Bloodhunt, anything would work. But as of now, for vast majority of people it will just be a massive NOPE.

[Dyvim]

...But as of now, for vast majority of people it will just be a massive NOPE.

 

well written post.

[Vladnar]

This isn't HARDMODE fp this is NiM FP....and thus it could be left and named...and the level requirement should really be 192 or 186 but also know exactly what you're doing and be on your toes you're ok.

[Elyx]

The thing is, all six FPs are packaged into a single "60 HM FPs" category, while one of them contains hard dps check from a different universe than the rest of them. The problem is not the difficulty in and of itself, but the recommended gear for it (which is the same for the required 8000 and 5200 dps checks) and the fact that GF is basically a lottery. There is a six hundred pages long thread next door that deals with the kind people GF can spit at you.

 

The best you can get is a person who has done the content and is familiar with their spec above the usual random button pressing. You can get the old 60s done with that. Rakata can be entirely done with HK (in Yavin gear) as the second dps. Funnily enough, it can be easier with a companion dps/tank, as several mechanics do not apply to them (companion doesn't get targeted by Rakata Chief's molotovs, doesn't get damaged by second boss's heavy telegraphed attack at all, no damage from bonus boss's unstable barrier) and the cherry on top - I have seen HK roll away from Darok when he got the circle, which was a greater display of skill than some GF starlets are capable of.

 

Compare with first boss of Bloodhunt, where there is zero room for carrying, unless one dps is just mindblowingly good (in which case, the chances of them pugging it are slim in the first place). Requiring a 50%(!!) dps increase without increasing the recommended gear level and putting it together with the rest of the 60 HMs is bad design at best.

 

So yeah, increase the enrage timer, lower the HP of adds, remove one add, make adds spawn at longer intervals, make a separate category for Bloodhunt, anything would work. But as of now, for vast majority of people it will just be a massive NOPE.

 

Yup. exactly. It's been mentioned before, but ill repeat it for the sake of the argument. When Lost Island and Kaon Under Siege were introduced in the game, they were in a totally different HM FP tier. I can't remember if they were called Tier 2 or something else, but ill refer to the as Tier 2. They were a step above the rest, and Bio even admitted they made them (especially LI), for players who were on progression content, but wanted a 4 man option when the raid team wasn't playing. LI was TOUGH...even in gear above the level requirements, the timers and mechanics were tight enough that most PuG's couldn't do it. But then again, they were in TIER 2.

 

Tier 1 was all the good Old Hm's that were really a solid progression step for the entry Ops. Black Talon, Battle for Ilum, False Emperor, Directive 7...they gave you the comms you needed to do the Entry Ops, and they were difficult enough that players had to start learning mechanics or wipe.

 

Honestly, i feel that we only have one current HM FP that meets those same requirements: Manaan. its difficult enough that you have to stay on your feet as a PuG, but if you pay attention to mechanics, you can make it fine.

 

All the others are really just too easy, or too hard. Some balancing is needed, or at the least, the LEAST, BH and Rishi should be put in a Tier 2 category, like we had before. bump up the comms rewards a bit (perhaps add a few elites in there..3-5 or so...). give people a reason to run those. and keep the rest as the "entry" level FP's.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Elyx

[Brutal]

They are the same level, have the same gear requirements, and offer the SAME reward, yet they are no where near the same in difficulty. Rishi is doable, but still a notch up in difficulty. The first boss in Bloodhunt is very difficult for a pug, and far and away more difficult than any other boss in any of the other fp's.

 

What is the rationale, defense, or justification for this lack of balance? GF is a real pain to use, depending on your server and your time of day...then when you do get a pop, to see content that is so far out of balance to basically being undoable...is unacceptable. I'm sure you hardcore types snicker, but again, look at the gear requirements (178, YES, 178), the casual pug nature of the encounters, and the simple fact that these two, bloodhunt in particular, are NOT even remotely balanced with the other content that gives the SAME rewards.

 

It is very disappointing that after this many weeks we haven't seen a balance pass. Again, keep in mind, the recommended gear level for these is 178...178...I would LOVE to see ANY gf pug in 178 gear complete the first boss in bloodhunt. I have yet to see a group in 186/192s make it.

 

Oh and the 11 min or so lockout when a grp is forced to reroll because of the developers inability to balance their content weeks after release, that is also another real perk ;(

 

hate to bust youre buble but done it in a pug grup in 180 gear

Edited March 8, 2015 by Brutal

[Kacynski]

hate to bust youre buble but done it in a pug grup in 180 gear

 

Pics, or bubble isn't busted ....

 

Anyway, 180's doesnt say anything. Is it optimzed from DF/DP with 4pc. setbonus? You do know that this would be significantly better than the blue 178's these flashpoints are supposed to be designed for. You being in 180s also doesn't tell us anything about the gear of the guys you were grouped with. And PuG alone doesn't tell us whether you were filling the last spot in a guild group, whether your guild group were taking one random guy with them or if it was a completely random group formed in the GF - roulette.

 

So, just with what you said there is a huge number of scenarios possible and by far not all of them would "bust the bubble" as you were claiming.

[Shwarzchild]

Honestly, i feel that we only have one current HM FP that meets those same requirements: Manaan. its difficult enough that you have to stay on your feet as a PuG, but if you pay attention to mechanics, you can make it fine.

 

All the others are really just too easy, or too hard. Some balancing is needed, or at the least, the LEAST, BH and Rishi should be put in a Tier 2 category, like we had before. bump up the comms rewards a bit (perhaps add a few elites in there..3-5 or so...). give people a reason to run those. and keep the rest as the "entry" level FP's.

 

I wish they'd bring back that old tier system. I really really do.

[straseed]

hate to bust youre buble but done it in a pug grup in 180 gear

 

Nobody else was in 180 gear, or you are lying. Only two possibilities, so yeah...bubble intact.

[Shwarzchild]

Looks like my luck ran out. Three blood hunt pops. Three fails. To go along with not enough dps (which we've discussed that the dps requirement for the fight might be over tuned...and at least after today I am inclined to agree with reservations). Aside from that, it's really been coming down to a few things that I think we all could focus on to get a little better:

 

1) When he does his throw and the blue circles start popping up running around like a headless chicken is actually counter productive. You'll end up spamming the circles too close for a team mate to run out of. This ends up being a lot of unnecessary damage.

 

2) (This can be up for debate no question)The adds. DPS should be on one add each so they go down as fast as possible. The more spread out the group becomes, the harder it becomes for me or other healers to get to you in time to stem the tide. If you're ranged move a little closer to your counter part dps.

 

3) Attitudes. Guys these flashpoints are tough. Raging is counter productive. Let's start working together instead of raging out at people. 2 tanks I was with just a little while ago had more to say than anyone, but what they said mainly was more about yelling at people than being constructive.

 

We all want to clear this stuff. It's possible. Hard no question. But seriously....r-e-l-a-x, have fun, work together.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[Dyvim]

Looks like my luck ran out. Three blood hunt pops. Three fails. ...Guys these flashpoints are tough.....

 

That's just it "these" aren't tough. Just Bloodhunt and to a lesser extent rishi. JUST bloodhunt. And they are NOT supposed to be that tough. These are NOT ops. They are flashpoints, meant to be group finder pug'd, MEANT for 178 gear.

 

I think you are starting to see the point. Think about it a little more.

[power-alex]

It's possible. Hard no question. But seriously....r-e-l-a-x, have fun, work together.

 

again, the problem is not just mechanics. I cannot teach people I just met in group finder how to tank, heal or dps. I cannot provide them with optimized gear. So if we get even one person in rishi gear we can wipe all evening and be nice to each other, but we won't get past this first boss, plain and simple.

 

The problem people have with Blood hunt is NOT that it's too hard, but that it is over tuned for 178 gear requirement and yet stays in the same tier and provides the same reward.

Edited March 9, 2015 by power-alex

[YellowRabbitLord]

I do not believe FP’s should be nerfed simply because they are too difficult (and not OPS). Introduce a tier system and different loot: why not. But do not go for the nerf-axe simply because it is hard (or maybe almost impossible).

 

I cannot teach people I just met in group finder how to tank, heal or dps.

You should not need to for a ‘real’ level 60 FP. People should know how to play their role at that level and if they cannot it means that earlier FP’s have been too easy on them. It is no reason to make Blood Hunt easier as well; I would argue the opposite: to make the others more difficult.

 

I cannot provide them with optimized gear.

Gear is overrated in my opinion. Skill is first and I believe it should not be made possible to overgear a level 60 FP to hide lack of skill (not saying that that is what you are suggesting).

 

r-e-l-a-x, have fun, work together.

I could not agree more

Edited March 9, 2015 by YellowRabbitLord

[power-alex]

Introduce a tier system and different loot: why not.

Looks like most of us agree on that.

 

People should know how to play their role at that level

I totally agree with that. But regretfully often times that is not the case. And suppose you're a dps. You wait in q for an hour and a half, get an average group with 2kdps and 2khps, group disbands after a few horrible wipes and you're back in q for another hour.

 

It is no reason to make Blood Hunt easier as well; I would argue the opposite: to make the others more difficult.

That is what this thread is about. How at current state Blood hunt is out of whack. And if you make other flashpoints more difficult without changing anything else, even less people will play them.

 

Gear is overrated in my opinion. Skill is first and I believe it should not be made possible to overgear a level 60 FP to hide lack of skill (not saying that that is what you are suggesting).

I could not agree more

that is sort of true. You have to have some gear. You can't fulfill your role naked, can you?

I remember as 162 geared sorc in hm czerka sandstorm boss I was really struggling to keep people above 30%. Then a month later I got full 180 (comms) augmented gear and it became a breeze, even though I was doing the same exact rotations.

So gear gives you a breathing room: you can mess up a rotation a little bit, you can maybe stand in stupid for a little longer. In entry level gear your performance would have to be perfect, can't skip a bit.

And considering gearing is an essential part of an mmo, I don't see any reason not to have the best gear that you can.

Edited March 9, 2015 by power-alex

[YellowRabbitLord]

that is sort of true. You have to have some gear. You can't fulfill your role naked, can you?

I remember as 162 geared sorc in hm czerka sandstorm boss I was really struggling to keep people above 30%. Then a month later I got full 180 (comms) augmented gear and it became a breeze, even though I was doing the same exact rotations.

So gear gives you a breathing room: you can mess up a rotation a little bit, you can maybe stand in stupid for a little longer. In entry level gear your performance would have to be perfect, can't skip a bit.

And considering gearing is an essential part of an mmo, I don't see any reason not to have the best gear that you can.

 

Oh I recognize what you are saying; upgrading my gear made some earlier FP a breeze (not sure if that is a good thing though). However that means for me that the better gear should be a reward for struggling through it and performing well. Lesser (but sufficient) gear should not be an excuse for underperforming but be a reason for giving it that extra. Once you have gone through it with lesser gear and earned the better gear, you also earned the right to skip a bit, and sometimes stand in stupid

[power-alex]

Once you have gone through it with lesser gear and earned the better gear, you also earned the right to skip a bit, and sometimes stand in stupid

 

lol

[Shwarzchild]

I was thinking more about this after I finally logged last night. Is the answer simply to scale back the dps requirements, enrage timer, add spawns, and and add hp? Or is the answer to up the recommended gear requirement to 192?

 

Changing the actual in fight stuff makes it easier for all, but should this flashpoint be accessible to everyone from the get go? I guess I was thinking in terms of Lost Island since we have been throwing that comparison around a lot. We had to pretty much get ourselves up tot he point where we could do LI. Could Blood Hunt be in a similar category?

 

So let's just say hypothetically that flashpoints were split into two tiers. Tier 1 would hypothetically drop the 192 resurrected gear tokens on the last boss, and 186 gear throughout. Tier 2 would consist of Rishi, and Blood Hunt. They would drop 198 comm pieces, and maybe a specific 192 resurrected piece like the chest or helmet a la Kaon and LI. Have two hardmode flashpoint weeklies. Complete 3 for the tier 1, Complete both for the tier 2. Those would award...a select amount elites for 1, and tier 2 ultimate comms. Would that kind of thing work for players? Would that add incentive for more experienced raiders to jump in, and for less experienced ones to go for the flash point?