scrizo Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 So I finally made it to level 60 as an Operative and am looking for information regarding being competitive in PvP and PvE. I am focused on DPS as I have not even touched the healing aspect of the character class. My question is two fold, I really love to play Concealment but a lot of people tell me that in PvE Lethality is the way to go endgame and the same with PvP. I am having a hard time adapting to Lethality as all I know is Concealment, could anyone offer advice or tweaks I could read/use to be the best player that I can be to my team whether it's PvE or PvP content. TLDR: Looking for information on tips or advice for being the best team player PvE/PvP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nateous Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Check dulfy.net guides. They are pve focused I think, but do well as a starting point. As ffor spec, either I think is fine, although I think the consensus is that ruffian/ lethality Is a lot of setup time and mostly fluff dmg due to dots. Play what you like to play aand have at it. (Scrapper for life, unless I'm forced to heal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haystak Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Check dulfy.net guides. They are pve focused I think, but do well as a starting point. As ffor spec, either I think is fine, although I think the consensus is that ruffian/ lethality Is a lot of setup time and mostly fluff dmg due to dots. Play what you like to play aand have at it. (Scrapper for life, unless I'm forced to heal) since the expansion, scrapper needs plenty of setup time to. 3 gcds if you want to actually get some serious burst off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrizo Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 Yeah I have been to dulfy how trustworthy is the information on there. I do play what I like and enjoy but want to make sure I can bring some sort of usefulness other than being a warm body PEW PEWING things. Check dulfy.net guides. They are pve focused I think, but do well as a starting point. As ffor spec, either I think is fine, although I think the consensus is that ruffian/ lethality Is a lot of setup time and mostly fluff dmg due to dots. Play what you like to play aand have at it. (Scrapper for life, unless I'm forced to heal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefczi Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) As I love Lethality spec(despite its issues) and I play it regularly(I switch between both dps specs often) I have to say that for PvP i find Concealment to be overaly better, more solid spec. You can pull off bigger numbers on dps charts with Lethality, but a lot of it will be a "fluff" damage from your dots. Becouse of the long setup, if you try to focus target with other players, often he will be dead, before you even start doing real damage. Also switching targets may be aqward, due to the same reason, especially if you want to switch targets to finish off an enemy on low health. Concealment doeasnt have those problems becouse its a hign burst spec where all abilities are hitting hard. Concealment also has better survivalability. Immunity on roll is awesone and is hands down better than the free heal that Lethality gets. Generally speaking I find myself to be much more usefull playing as concealment. If it comes to capturing nodes/pylons, the high burst on concealment is simply better. Being able to burst down defender, fast gives you a chance to cap the node before his frinds show up. Its harder to pull of with Lethality. Also in Huttball, Concealment is hands down better. Immunity on roll is great for carrying the ball/rolling throu fire/acid etc. Same story in Arenas. I find myself more usefull as Concealment. Operatives seems to be often focused as soon as they pop out of stealth, and in this case, 3 seconds of immunity is much better than the free heal that is meaningless if you get focused by 3-4 ppl. I just feel that I can accomplish more and generally be much more usefull as Concealment in pvp, sadly. I cannot comment on engame pve, as outside of leveling(for witch concealment is better...again) I am only focused on pvp. Edited February 20, 2015 by Nefczi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedImage Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I believe the breakdown is Concealment for PvP and Lethality for PvE. Lethality is able to deliver a more potent stream of damge from mid range than Concealment is able to, thus making it more effective for PvE, mainly boss fights. The burst superiority of Concealment over Lethality is why it is preferred in PvP. I've played both specs and if you are able to get a lot out of each spec, stand alone, then by all means switch back and forth. If you are only average to slightly above average, you may wanna consider choosing one spec and spending more time on that one until you are performing well enough to hone your skills on the other one. Both specs, if played at a very high level, can be monsters in their respective environments in the right hands. Lethality=PvE Concealment=PvP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) So I finally made it to level 60 as an Operative and am looking for information regarding being competitive in PvP and PvE. I am focused on DPS as I have not even touched the healing aspect of the character class. My question is two fold, I really love to play Concealment but a lot of people tell me that in PvE Lethality is the way to go endgame and the same with PvP. I am having a hard time adapting to Lethality as all I know is Concealment, could anyone offer advice or tweaks I could read/use to be the best player that I can be to my team whether it's PvE or PvP content. TLDR: Looking for information on tips or advice for being the best team player PvE/PvP Pretty simple really Infiltration and Concealment are equal in over all dps. Concealment easier to play and faster dps spin up (read:target switching). The hope was that Infiltrator would be "brought up" to Ruffian dps with it;s extra ticks. Instead Ruffian was nerfed. The rest I think is self explanatory. PS speaking PvE only... assuming same general cocept applies to PvP because burst = best there. Priot to 3.0 the Concealment = best for PvP may have been true. With 3.0 drop we were in a holding pattern...seeing what happened to Ruffian. Ruffian was just "fixed" to = Infiltrator. Ergo pick your poison for actual numbers because one is not clearly better at the end of a parse than another. Edited February 21, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkvadors Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Lethality=PvE Concealment=PvP Nah, Concealment is viable for PvE. For PvE, Operative Dps is really good. He got a excellent dps and have good survivability. In my team, i'm generally the first dps in ToS/Ravager HM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedImage Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Well, no doubt, both specs are viable in Reg PvP and SM PvE. But when you get into the top levels of PvP/PvE then numbers dictate PvP concealment/heals and PvE lethality/heals by and large. Heck, as I understand things....many top groups do not even include the IA/Smug classes in any capacity at all these days....Sins and Sorcs do the job better a lot of times I guess? But I roll concealment myself, so Im with ya friend. I have no issues PvP or pve with either spec if you are not trying to get "the most" out of the class in a very specific role. They are both VERY good for casual gaming ymmv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Wicked the numbers a host of people are coming up with, post 3.0 show that Concealment and Infiltration are equal in terms of dps, if played right. Some people say Infiltration may be like 100 dps ahead but that is well within the margin of error that RNG would give you with DoT builds... so = is most likely. This is why people were hoping that the Ruffian's extra ticks were going to be shared with Infiltration. The idea being... "The two are equal on Agent side. Infiltration should be ahead in PvE right? Concealment is the PvP build. Ahh look at Ruffian, those extra ticks put em ahead. That'll fix things when they give Infiltration the extra ticks." Well instead of giving those ticks they took the extra ticks away from Ruffian. Maybe the set up you describe is what the devs intend, don't know since they won't say, BUT it certainly is not how the parses are turning out. Edited February 22, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedImage Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 While I respect those numbers and the effort required to arrive at them....they are in "practice" only, as far as I can see? I don't see the 2 specs used evenly in actual gameplay of each type, likely because target dummies don't hit back...affording the numbers to lack a little information? Concealment is far and away better in PvP than Lethality imo. If Lethality was "about equal"....I would expect to see that reflected in team make ups or even in how many of each kind of Op there is running around? I don't though brother. The vast majority of DPS OP's in PvP are Concealment. I can't even tell you the last time I saw the cull animation or whatever they are calling it now... I PvP everyday. Both sides of the empire. I have an Operative and a Mirrored Smuggler and am very familiar with what each spec looks like in action. I would expect to see lethality "equally" in PvP if what you say was true? But they simply aren't there..... So while the math majors say the dummy allows for = numbers.....the actual play in PvP says different. Go ask top players like Snave or Strogg or....hell I dunno....I'm an old player, recently returned, I don't know who the top players are now? But ask one what they run in PvP. I bet the overwhelming majority are Concealment my friend. Then goto PvE and ask the top ops what they run. It's going to be a majority saying Lethality. Because while they are both capable of similar numbers in PvE....the lethality has less risk for the same reward. Lethality can play effectively from a little safer distance than 4m. Concealment needs to be in harms way much more than the lethality does if they wanna put up similar numbers in PvE. Risk vs reward favors lethality in PvE. When I left I was running a lethality build with great effectiveness. I was basically unkillable in 1v1 PvP and nearly the same in a 1v2. I could kite multiple foes for relatively long periods, occasionally picking one of the 3 or 4 off along the way.... When I came back about 6 weeks ago my lethality build was bad in PvP. I was doing "ok" but not functioning in an acceptable capacity for me. So I re-rolled to Concealment again. Boom! I was back! Except for vs skilled sins. They still kinda raped me lol. But I was instantly contributing more to the team. My numbers weren't as big and fluffy as when I was lethality...but I could take people out much faster....which is better than big numbers on the board to me. I am not trying to "bicker" with ya bro, really. But the parse dummies don't hit back. They may parse similarly but they certainly do not perform similarly in the PvP environment. I suspect it's the same in PvE environments? I don't do top end PvE enough to know, honestly though, so I'll leave the top PvE ops to chime in on this....and confirm or debunk my suspicions. Also, when you say "infiltration"....do you mean "scrapper"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkvadors Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Then goto PvE and ask the top ops what they run. It's going to be a majority saying Lethality. Because while they are both capable of similar numbers in PvE....the lethality has less risk for the same reward. Lethality can play effectively from a little safer distance than 4m. Concealment needs to be in harms way much more than the lethality does if they wanna put up similar numbers in PvE. Risk vs reward favors lethality in PvE. Hmmm, i killed Coratanni HM and i'm going to kill Revan HM with Concealment spec, and i can say that Lethality is not is not the best spec for PvE especially for last boss. I don't say that Lethality is not good for PvE, but not appropriate for all boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakyoom Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) The fact that target dummies don't fight back is exactly why concealment is proving to be the better spec for PvE right now. With so many mobile fights and fights where you need to switch between targets often, conceal becomes more mobile, defensive and while the damage is comparable between the 2 specs is comparable, lethality just doesn't perform as well in mobile and target-switching fights, which is quite about half. My suggestion is to just spend the creds on Field Respecialization so that you can decide which specs work best for whatever fights. Edited February 22, 2015 by Vakyoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Wicked, you can be further away but if you know how to play, especially in SWTOR there isn't that much more "harms way.". I used to buy into that but not anymore. Harms way is created by a players lack of attention to a script, not the script. Also in PvE you will have often higher dps in Concealment in a real fight because when dealing with the mechanics its simply easier. You screw up keeping your DoTs all up or clip them due to movement as Lethality you are screwed. You need to swap targets? You are screwed. You comment about practice actually says the opposite. It is easy to keep a proper DoT rotation up on a training dummy, it becomes a lot harder in a " real" fight. I am not trying to start an argument either. Maybe we just have different experiences? I used to be one of "those" raiders. The raider who woke up and logged in at 3am if his phone rang and heard the raid lead say "Avatar of War is up." Raid time ends at 11? Still on at 12am if the raid lead ordered it because we were close to a server/world first. Now I don't play like this anymore but I still min/max and nit pick the hell out of the builds and parses as if I did. There may be a PvE fight where lethality has better performance post 3.0 but I haven't found it. This isn't to say lethality has worse performance in PvE BTW, it just isn't better anymore. Whether that is intended or proper, I don't know. Edited February 23, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakyoom Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 every time ghis says "infiltration" i believe he means "lethality"... Infiltration is not a spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) every time ghis says "infiltration" i believe he means "lethality"... Infiltration is not a spec Yes... Used to play consular main and the same kind arguments swirled around infiltration and balance specs... Maybe they still do. Old habits die hard lol. Edited my last post... Good looking out Edited February 23, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedImage Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 every time ghis says "infiltration" i believe he means "lethality"... Infiltration is not a spec Thanks for clearing that up. My lil brain had my ears almost smokin' over that one lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedImage Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Wicked, you can be *snip* Well, as I said, I will have to trust the hard core PvE word here since I don't do high end PvE. If Lethality is not better then it's not. I'm not a fan of spreading misinformation. If you say it's so....then it is. Besides, if it's not right....I'm sure someone will be along shortly to scold you in a less than polite way lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Well, as I said, I will have to trust the hard core PvE word here since I don't do high end PvE. If Lethality is not better then it's not. I'm not a fan of spreading misinformation. If you say it's so....then it is. Besides, if it's not right....I'm sure someone will be along shortly to scold you in a less than polite way lol. On your last point ABSOLUTELY lol. I only said it because it has been stated outside of my "personal" circle by guides on sites like Dulfy's and the like. I am VERY anal retentive and like confirmation from "impartial" sources before I make any statements in "public". Edited February 23, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakyoom Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) The 2 specs simply parse so close to eachother it's really preference, just concealment is easier to mess up with(due to high-mechnic fights) and still come out on top.... Conceal will parse higher in fights where you have to move around a lot. Lethality will parse higher in fights where you don't clip or let DoT's fall off and you won't have to switch targets as often. Concealment is the better choice for MOST fights because you are never on the same target long enough to do full rotations, etc etc... There are only a couple fights where you don't target swap constantly or have to move around all the time... Revan, Master/Blaster, Bulo and Malaphar are the only fights i'd consider Lethality to be better simply in numbers IMHO. It's all preference since there is not a clear winner for us, it's all about what feels better and what is going to work best for you. Personally clipping dots is a problem of mine and i lose too much dps so with concealment i can swap or be mobile in all the fights without losing too much dmg. Edited February 23, 2015 by Vakyoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkvadors Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 the time... Revan, Master/Blaster, Bulo and Malaphar are the only fights i'd consider Lethality to be better simply in numbers IMHO. Not Revan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakyoom Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Yea Revan was up for debate in my head too... you're not switching targets but there's so much movement that you may not have time to get 10sec of CA off before you have to move again, and that's your main dps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysergicacyd Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 noone cares about pve noone cares about regs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghisallo Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) noone cares about pve noone cares about regs Lol...thats why there are so many more PvP servers... oh wait a second.... rofl Edited February 24, 2015 by Ghisallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysergicacyd Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Lol...thats why there are so many more PvP servers... oh wait a second.... rofl ok bad players do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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