Those DPS who pull, go balls out and then blame the tank when you wipe....

[aceavenger]

The Tank should have aggro on everything, making them the only one taking damage because they can mitigate some of it, the healer has to keep them alive by spam healing them, which generates initial threat on anything that is aggro'd and doesn't initially get hit by the tank due to range issues or mid-fight spawns. This means guarding the healer is the best option to keep yourself alive IN FPs. Taking any and all stress off the healer means they can keep you alive longer, and odds are the DPS who may pull aggro should be aware and prepared to use their defensive CDs if they do. Honestly guard all depends on the individual fights you're about to pull, and can/should be swapped around accordingly, but the easiest answer in all FPs is to guard the healer if you're not able or willing to constantly swap it around.

 

To the OP:

If you're ever having issue holding threat off a DPS, be nice about it and accept blame. Just simply say "I'm having trouble holding threat off you, would you mind waiting a few seconds to start DPSing after I pull? It'll make this a lot easier on all of us." The biggest thing that holds groups back in Pugs is communication, most players out there are willing to work with people if they let them know up front what they're getting into. If you think you might not be geared for whatever you queued for, say so in chat. If you don't know the mechanics to a fight, say so in chat. If you've never been in that instance before, say so in chat. If you don't have much time and need it to be a quick run, say so in chat. If after you've said something to your group about your capabilities, they decide they don't want to run with you for whatever reason, then accept it and move on. Some players come in under geared or inexperienced, and others are elitests that expect every run to be as fast as possible. You can't control others, but you can at least let them know where you stand so you can try to find what works best for all of you.

 

I personally expect every run to be as fast as possible, but wont get upset if somebody tells me they need help before we start. I will either let them know I don't have time to do a slow run and ask them to replace me, or help instruct them on how to properly complete the content with the gear they're working with. Nothing wrong with either approach, and Group Finder isn't always perfect, sometimes the groups put together just aren't compatible with each other, and you have to be able to identify that and move on.

 

In the end it's creating an easier way to group people up than asking in random chats for exactly what type of run you're looking for. Try to find a guild or some like minded friends on your server that will run with you the way you want. Just have fun and don't take it seriously, it's a game.

 

I don't think this man read the OP.

[aceavenger]

If you need to place guard on the healer then you're doing something terribly wrong considering that the threat generated by healers is miniscule compared to the other roles. Why should damage dealers lower their output just because you're incapable of generating enough threat?

 

Because Stupid DPS is dead DPS and dead DPS does no DPS. DPS adapts to the tank you have, but I guess tactical runners like you have forgotten that.

[Halinalle]

I'm not sure what you are arguing with. I've said repeatedly that it makes no sense to guard the healer for exactly the same reason you are giving. The only new thing I said here is that it will almost never end up mattering because threat is rarely a big issue in HM FP's.

 

The whole reason we are talking about this is b/c the OP doesn't understand the function of guard and doesn't know how taunts work in this game.

 

Are we reading different threads?

 

OP is complaining about Marauders/Snipers (not limited to these but these two are just the most common ones to do it) pulling before the tank. Translation for you: tank is still waiting Sorcerer healer to regen enough resources before jumping in. What happens is Marauder dps is impatient and jumps in.

[KingFink]

OP is complaining about Marauders/Snipers (not limited to these but these two are just the most common ones to do it) pulling before the tank. Translation for you: tank is still waiting Sorcerer healer to regen enough resources before jumping in. What happens is Marauder dps is impatient and jumps in.

 

We still win if it's a trash pull in a flashpoint. We also should still win 90% of the time if it's a boss. Flashpoints are not as hard as people make them out to be. Obviously if you're having trouble, slow it down. If some dude doesn't want to slow down...Vote kick?

Edited February 17, 2015 by KingFink

[Halinalle]

We still win if it's a trash pull in a flashpoint. We also should still win 90% of the time if it's a boss. Flashpoints are not as hard as people make them out to be. Obviously if you're having trouble, slow it down. If some dude doesn't want to slow down...Vote kick?

 

But the question is: can you kill 2+ elites in less than 10 seconds.

 

It takes about 10 seconds for my Vanguard to drop from 100% to 10% if there's no heals. And that's only two strongs on Rishi.

[Kalfear]

I have 4 ops ready Healers and this black and white answers every one throwing around for guard is silly.

 

If your in a regular pre made its not a issue, everyone typically knows what to do and when

 

For Pugs however

most of the time Tank should guard the DPSer that pulls the most threat (this IS NOT A GEAR ISSUE so NO you dont just guard the DPSer with best gear. A DPSer in 186 gear that knows his rotation and how to maximize character will grossly out damage another DPSer in full 192 gear. Guard the best player, not the most geared).

 

HOWEVER, there is certain fights where healers do need to be guarded (for part of fight and then change guard or possibly full fight). Its up to the tanks to understand this and do the tactic properly.

 

Its almost NEVER so cut and dry you just guard someone and forget about it.

 

Ideally if your DPSers are doing their job correctly, even with regular agro dumps they should be pushing enough numbers to steal threat (or at least battle for it). That's why you guard the best DPSer, so the tank is able to maintain control of the fight.

 

I know for myself (as a healer) I'll tell the tank to guard a DPSer if they throw it on me at the wrong time and place.

 

Also for those saying healers have to be guarded.

 

Don't forget we all (all healer classes) have their own agro dump (and they should be using it continuously) and also have defensive skills (like Force Barrier, disappear, insta cast self heals, and more). Healers are not helpless and can usually survive a shot or 2 while tank re establishes control, if a healer does steal agro. The biggest threat to a healer in fights is not stealing boss agro, its having adds agro (Bulo fight of Ravangers comes to mind) when the fight mechanics are not done properly or quickly.

 

So in general the tank needs to find the high dpser and guard him/her for most content and needs to be ready to switch guard as required in certain situations/instances.

 

There is no "one rule solves all" generality to be found.

 

And again I repeat

THE BEST GEAR DOES NOT MEAN BEST PLAYER SO NO YOU DON'T JUST GUARD THE BEST GEARED DPSer

Pay attention to whats going on around you

There is more to tanking then just getting agro

And there is a ton more to DPSing then just mindlessly hitting stuff

[Toweleeeie]

FPs guard dps

 

Ops, healers on a few fights but mostly dps.

[KingFink]

But the question is: can you kill 2+ elites in less than 10 seconds.

 

It takes about 10 seconds for my Vanguard to drop from 100% to 10% if there's no heals. And that's only two strongs on Rishi.

 

The idea I'm trying to put forth here is that if the average pug was "ok" (I know many of them are not.) then you should still be fine.

 

I may be looking through the "I usually just do these with three guildies" glasses though.

[light_senshi]

If you do this, then it's only your own fault. As a healer, I'm going to get popcorn and watch....

[Pagy]

Because Stupid DPS is dead DPS and dead DPS does no DPS. DPS adapts to the tank you have, but I guess tactical runners like you have forgotten that.

in a way i agree with you.

 

but that said, this way tanks never improve, or learn how to properly build threat. something needs to break to realize that there's a problem.

 

i dont actively try to steal threat (unless im trying to mess with someone for being bad) but at the same time, i'm not going to just autoattack either. remember i'm there to play too...and doing fps helps me burn a dps rotation into my muscle memory...changing targets etc.

 

for me, there's a difference between a tank that loses agro to me and says "stop dpsing so hard" and a "i must be doing something wrong"

[Halinalle]

for me, there's a difference between a tank that loses agro to me and says "stop dpsing so hard" and a "i must be doing something wrong"

 

Say that to those few tanks who lose aggro after my first Annihilate in CZ TFPs. What I've seen they do their rotation correctly. Can't hold back because it's the only way to build Annihilator stacks.

 

I mean 12k+ crits, not facepalm-slaps.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Halinalle

[RDeanOU]

Are we reading different threads?

 

OP is complaining about Marauders/Snipers (not limited to these but these two are just the most common ones to do it) pulling before the tank. Translation for you: tank is still waiting Sorcerer healer to regen enough resources before jumping in. What happens is Marauder dps is impatient and jumps in.

 

I've been reading the thread. You apparently didn't even read the OP carefully. He makes many complaints. Among these was that after using his aoe taunt, the dps has so much aggro from the pull that when "the taunt drops" they go straight for the dps. That isn't how taunts work in this game. After taunting, he automatically has a multiplied amount of the threat that the highest threat target has. This complaint exposes a tank that does not know how threat works in this game. Certainly the dps should let the tank pull, but one taunt negates that issue. The OP later endorsed the idea that guard (primarily a threat reducer in pve) should always go on the healer.

 

Tank who doesn't know how taunt and threat work + tank who doesn't know how guard works = X

 

Solve for X. What does that add up to?

[MCesca]

Frankly, if I'm a tank and one of the DPS keeps doing this, where they're running ahead and engaging everything, I stand back and let them die. Rest of the group is usually smart enough not to engage if the tank doesn't. Suddenly, loudmouth DPS finds themselves all alone and dying fast. They either learn their lesson and respect the tank and healer, or they quit group and you find a new DPS to replace them.

[aceavenger]

in a way i agree with you.

 

but that said, this way tanks never improve, or learn how to properly build threat. something needs to break to realize that there's a problem.

 

i dont actively try to steal threat (unless im trying to mess with someone for being bad) but at the same time, i'm not going to just autoattack either. remember i'm there to play too...and doing fps helps me burn a dps rotation into my muscle memory...changing targets etc.

 

for me, there's a difference between a tank that loses agro to me and says "stop dpsing so hard" and a "i must be doing something wrong"

 

Bad tank or not, you don't wipe a group trying to prove a point. Either play with what you got or leave group and wait another hour for another tank. Works like that.

[Pagy]

Bad tank or not, you don't wipe a group trying to prove a point. Either play with what you got or leave group and wait another hour for another tank. Works like that.

if i dps in order to be a jerk and steal agro (which of course i admit has happened, notably after i request guard and the terrible tank still insists it goes on the healer) i don't think the group is at risk. in fact, i'm putting myself in harms way and depending on the healer.

 

like i've said i've tanked most fights on my merc, if i feel confident with the healers i can pull off selfish silly stunts like this.

[Halinalle]

Tank who doesn't know how taunt and threat work + tank who doesn't know how guard works = X

 

Solve for X. What does that add up to?

 

I've been kicked from group because I didn't put Guard on healer. In Mandalorian Raiders SM (yes, you did read that correctly).

[Rafkin]

I'm sure this kind of stuff has been brought up before, but this just ticked me off. So I just ran hard mode Athiss with this DPS jugg, I quit early. I play a Jugg myself, level 56 tank, in full 55 gear. I've played MMO's since Burning Crusade came out, and have played all roles in several MMO's and I was under the impression that the tanks job is to tank and the DPS is to kill things. That's how the dynamic works. This DPS jugg immediately starts running ahead of me and pulling all the groups. He does this for more than half the pulls, what results is this. He pulls, blows his load and builds a bunch of aggro, naturally, I dive in and taunt, smash, start sweeping slashing. He has so much aggro on me from pulling that the taunt drops and then they go straight after him, The healer is having to spam him to keep him up, when I finally get aggro back on everything, said healer is so focused on him that he doesn't even notice my health is dropping like a bolder in water, I proceed to either have to pop all my crap or die, group almost wipes. We make it to the first boss, I pull and start building threat on boss. He Goes balls out, which is fine on a boss, however the adds pop. Neither of the DPS go for the adds, I'm beating on the boss and see them making a bee line for the healer and begin to pound on him. Seeing they aren't doing what they're supposed to I have to jump over and grab threat, DPS jugg keeps pounding on boss, pull threat, healer busy healing him self, dies, then I die, then group wipes. DPS jugg then proceeds to tell me "Don't think you can tank hard mode flashpoints" even though I've been doing that for the last 6 levels with no problems what so ever. At this point, I'm naturally annoyed and tell him to stop pulling and to ease DPS if he pulls threat (the things I was taught as a DPS in every MMO I've played). He proceeds to rage on me. I quit, he then whisper's me and continues his trash talk. I ignore him. In my old guilds a guy like this would have been kicked from the group immediately. What's ironic is that he complained in the beginning of the FP that he was having trouble with this map before, I have not. Common denominator? So yeah, a little venting. Any horror stories form anyone else?

 

It's almost as annoying as people who don't use paragraphs.

[NrDLeipe]

if a dps pulls i let him tank since he clearly thinks then that he can take the damage and survive ( wich is not the case but fun to watch ).

After he/she is dead i will start doing my job, im not gonna waste a taunt on his/her inpatience cause its wrong to open with a taunt simple as that .

 

Tactical fps is part of the cause but before that was ingame certain people where doing it aswell its a certain kind of player and you will find them in any mmo.

 

Kill order same thing i rarely pug purely cause i refuse to waste time on ppl that dont want to learn how it works.

If i do pug and i encounter those " special players " i will ignore them so i will never be teamed up with them wich result in a longer q for them in the future.

 

There are plenty good pugs out there that know what they do but the bad 1s screw it up for them cause in the end

tanks will say screw this i will go with guildies and friends only and its a fact that tanks are only handfull compared to dps

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

If you are ever guarded as the bomb runner the rest of your dps must be worthless. learn to play foo

 

My tanks always Guard the healers, and our Marauder just started playing Annihilation so, his DPS just skyrocketed. And i'm an Arsenal Merc doing bomb carrying, It only makes sense for the Bomb Carrier to get guarded, to reduce his damage taken by stuff so he can do his job without dying!

[Heat-Wave]

I've been kicked from group because I didn't put Guard on healer. In Mandalorian Raiders SM (yes, you did read that correctly).

 

Wow, that is sad...

 

This being said, lots of people don't know how the game works, so... it happens...

[Rafkin]

The guard arguement is the oldest, dumbest arguement on these forums. I've forgotten to put guard on anyone dozens of times and never noticed. As long as I engage first aggro is never a problem.

[RDeanOU]

I've been kicked from group because I didn't put Guard on healer. In Mandalorian Raiders SM (yes, you did read that correctly).

 

My point was that this thread was started by a tank who obviously doesn't know how to tank complaining about a dps that didn't know how to manage threat.

 

In my experience, people who concentrate on playing their own role well rarely have to complain about groups like this on the forums. I had a tank the other night who would only hit one mob at a time on trash pulls. We had some deaths, but we managed because the rest of us made up for his mistakes.

[NrDLeipe]

My point was that this thread was started by a tank who obviously doesn't know how to tank complaining about a dps that didn't know how to manage threat.

 

In my experience, people who concentrate on playing their own role well rarely have to complain about groups like this on the forums. I had a tank the other night who would only hit one mob at a time on trash pulls. We had some deaths, but we managed because the rest of us made up for his mistakes.

 

thats wrong imo, you shouldnt have to make up for his bad gameplay cause when he issnt shown what hes doing wrong he will never learn and think what hes doing is a good thing.

 

If you dont know a fight that is fine but let the rest of your grp know he i dont know this yet , that way people can help.

If i let a dps die because he pulls , he will learn it not to do it cause ppl dont like to pay for repairs etc

Edited February 17, 2015 by NrDLeipe

[souloferdrick]

Most issues in any group can be resolved with a shred of decency and a little communication.

 

If things could be better, then they would be. Until then, we are all getting what we deserve.

[seafreeish]

Two things:

 

1) Tanks: If your DPS pulls he or she could still be doing his or her job. At this point in the game, a DPS doing an optimal rotation will generate more threat/second than an equivalently geared tank doing their optimal rotation. Even with threat drops thrown in this can still happen. When your DPS's gear is better than the tanks this only amplifies the problem.

 

Guess what though tanks, you have taunts for this purpose! Two of them! Not using your taunts as a tank is like a DPS not using his or her offensive cooldowns. They're tools in your tool box. Use them.

 

Also, as a pertinent side note, asking your DPS to not go all out at any point in a fight so you don't ever lose aggro is just poor form. The higher your DPS's threat when they pull, the more threat you steal from them when you taunt off. Don't get me wrong: there are times where DPS absolutely cannot pull off. If a boss is going to turn and cleave the raid causing a wipe, DPS should tread lightly. But most of the time there is very little more than a bit more damage going out for the second or two that the DPS has aggro on the boss.

 

(NrDLeipe, I can only see your point if your DPS taunts off you. Other than that you are very much in the wrong not to taunt off them and let them die. Tanking takes maturity. I suggest you explore other roles in the game. There are too many factors that play into threat for you to assume they are not managing their threat properly.)

 

2) Please, as someone who has been kicked from flashpoints multiple times, take time to talk through problems before you kick someone. More often than not, kicking someone from group wastes everyone's time. If someone is clearly trolling, and everyone agrees they are sabotaging the groups progress, by all means kick them. But if someone is doing something that you perceive as wrong or bad form, it may just be that they don't know better; it also may be that you are doing something wrong. If you want your group to go exactly as you expect it, get a group of 3 other buddies and queue up. Otherwise you are randoming in with people who may have waited an hour just for the chance to go through a flashpoint; and may be at a different skill level than you. Be patient with people. Try to understand why they play the way they do. Please, think and talk before you kick.

 

Sorry so long; too much to say... :/