PVP vs PVE Hilt Question

[VincentBedok]

So, I've been curious of something for a while now. Is it better to use a PVP hilt or a PVE hilt when doing Warzones?

 

EDIT: After a LOT of math & playing with the bolsterizer. I finally have enough evidence to say that a 198 PVE Hilt is Equivalent in overall damage output to a 168 PVP Hilt (Of course we all know that there are 174 PVP Hilts, which would be BiS). I kept having issues with 2 of my formulas which lead me to watch very specific stat changes during the bolster effect. I'm gonna use numbers just because it'll be easier to convey my point that way:

 

1) You stand to benefit in 3 different ways from a Hilt with a Higher Item Rating. Weapon Energy Damage, Force Power Increase, and Critical Increase (Negligible).

2) Although Weapon Energy Damage itself doesn't get bolstered, You Base Weapon Damage does. Using both Hilts in the same lightsaber I ended up with a Base Weapon Damage of 836-1255. This was the biggest hurdle because I didn't expect a hard limit on that stat.

3) Force Power increase was my next avenue to get extra damage. It was very quickly shut down by bolster, which set my Force Power to 2325.

 

That was the stopping point. So. In Conclusion. the only PVE hilt that can compete on a PVP Warzone level is a 198 hilt. The only reason it can compete is the shear increase in stats that it has over the 168 hilt. However, if you are doing World PVP, the damage boost from having a PVE hilt is tremendous. The 68 Expertise provided by the 168 PVP hilt only gives you a 2.02% damage boost, which can be outperformed by a simple 174 PVE hilt.

 

ORIGINAL THREAD:

 

So, I've been curious of something for a while now. Is it better to use a PVP hilt or a PVE hilt when doing Warzones?

 

My current thoughts are that PVE is better because your Primary Damage is determined by the Hilt in your lightsaber. The slight PVP Damage Boost provided by Expertise isn't enough to outweigh the Primary Damage boost provided by a PVE hilt. I have some math to back up the theory, granted I make no guarantees about the accuracy.

 

|-----MELEE------|----PVE----|----PVP----|---CHANGE---|
|  Damage (Pri)  | 1964-2333 | 1825-2128 | 1862-2171  |
|  Bonus Damage  |  1223.4   |  1217.7   |------------|
|-----FORCE------|-----------|-----------|
|  Bonus Damage  |  1751.7   |  1692.4   |
|------PVP-------|-----------|-----------|
|PVP Damage Boost|     0%    |   2.02%   |

 

I was surprised to see the code box not use the Lucida Console Font, but I'll just roll with that. Simply put when changing out only the hilts I ended up with this:

 

PVE PRIMARY DAMAGE: 1964-2333

PVP PRIMARY DAMAGE: 1825-2128

PVP MODIFIED DAMAGE: 1862-2171

 

The PVP MODIFIED DAMAGE amount is the PVP PRIMARY DAMAGE plus the PVP Damage boost provided by the expertise. Which even with that boost, still doesn't exceed the Primary Damage of the PVE hilt. I of course could be misunderstanding how the stats modify each other, or any number of other things. Any input is appreciated on this

 

Edited January 29, 2015 by VincentBedok
Updated to show new information

[JouerTue]

what i knew until today was that if you swap just the hilt, bolster will mess with you, you should use a 100% pve mods weapon to be bolstered and in that case you'd have worse stats than a 100% pvp.

 

after op post i will have to check myself..

 

which rating has the hilt?

is the only mod you swap?

Edited January 29, 2015 by JouerTue

[VincentBedok]

what i knew until today was that if you swap just the hilt, bolster will mess with you, you should use a 100% pve mods weapon to be bolstered and in that case you'd have worse stats than a 100% pvp.

 

after op post i will have to check myself..

 

which rating has the hilt?

is the only mod you swap?

 

Alright, I've found partial data on the Bolster system. From what I'm seeing Bolster looks at an item's mods, takes an average Then adds to your stats to bring you up to the baseline for that slot. I'm not seeing a major downside to swapping out a single PVP mod for PVE. However it does look EXTREMELY detrimental to add a single expertise mod to a PVE item. Will do more research & see what I can come up with. May just have to test it out in a Warzone with active bolster. Gonna attempt math first though.

[Azurestone]

10/10 been waiting for an analysis like this since 3.0 early access

[VincentBedok]

10/10 been waiting for an analysis like this since 3.0 early access

 

So, my damage calculation were done incorrectly, however quick math is still showing that using a PVE hilt is better. I will update this post shortly with more information. I'm having issues finding precise expertise/bolster mechanics.

 

If anyone would like to contribute post your current:

Expertise Rating

PVP Damage Boost

PVP Damage Reduction

PVP Healing Boost

 

Any amount of expertise is usable, along with any level of gear, whether you have 1 piece or a full set. Your information will help me out.

 

Keep in mind that the information I'm posting does not take Bolster into effect. I will have to test Bolster in a live Warzone & would prefer to have the basic math figured out before I do so.

[Wainamoinen]

Bolster boosts main hand Tech/Force power on any weapon to top tier (2790) and also weapon damage (min/max 732/1360). This has made PvP weapons BiS for PvP despite higher stats on PvE gear outside warzones.

 

Otherwise, Bolster will not add stats to an item with any expertise on it (or rather hasn't in the past, would be surprised if it's changed). This is why you do not mix PvE and PvP mods on one item. You'll either lose expertise or raw stats .

 

You do not have to go onto a warzone to check Bolster. There is a warzone target dummy on Gav Daragon (Rep Fleet name) bridge deck, beside which is a "bolsterizer" that you can click to see the effect of Bolster on your stats.

 

Good luck, would be interested to see your results.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Wainamoinen

[VincentBedok]

Bolster boosts main hand Tech/Force power on any weapon to top tier (2790) and also weapon damage (min/max 732/1360). This has made PvP weapons BiS for PvP despite higher stats on PvE gear outside warzones.

 

Otherwise, Bolster will not add stats to an item with any expertise on it (or rather hasn't in the past, would be surprised if it's changed). This is why you do not mix PvE and PvP mods on one item. You'll either lose expertise or raw stats .

 

You do not have to go onto a warzone to check Bolster. There is a warzone target dummy on Gav Daragon (Rep Fleet name) bridge deck, beside which is a "bolsterizer" that you can click to see the effect of Bolster on your stats.

 

Good luck, would be interested to see your results.

 

From what I've read & tested so far, you are correct that Items with any expertise will not get additional expertise. And thanks for mentioning the Bolsterizer, completely forgot that thing was there. I have this formula drawn up for damage calculation:

 

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/512750/module_gallery/original/2147749.jpg

 

Currently with my toon's stats I get better damage from the PVE hilt in Open World PVP. About to start some bolster tests & see what turns up. I'm taking my information on bolster primarily from here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7099225#edit7099225 Hoping the information is not outdated. But either way there's not too many technical stats on the formulas, so I'm just gonna have to work it out as I go. Anyone with good links or information, send them my way

[Evolixe]

OP, the bolster system gives you a massive boost to your primary and force damage to make PvP weapons match 198 PvE ones. Therefore, your analysis would be right for WPvP, but not for Warzones.

 

In Warzones.. using a PvE hilt is ALWAYS bad.

[HaoZhao]

Keep in mind that expertise doesn't just affect damage. It also affects healing and the damage you take. Even IF the PVE hilt turned out to be slightly better for ganking those villains trying to run their Yavin 4 dailies in peace, you're also making yourself slightly squishier, bringing into question whether or not you've actually gained an advantage.

 

It's best to just stop trying to game the system and gear fully in PVP mods, as intended.

Edited January 29, 2015 by HaoZhao

[Evolixe]

Keep in mind that expertise doesn't just affect damage. It also affects healing and the damage you take. Even IF the PVE hilt turned out to be slightly better for ganking those villains trying to run their Yavin 4 dailies in peace, you're also making yourself slightly squishier, bringing into question whether or not you've actually gained an advantage.

 

It's best to just stop trying to game the system and gear fully in PVP mods, as intended.

 

The damage boost is quite significant, the added damage intake is next to negigable.

It doesn't even require a calculation. PvE hilt is leaps and bounds better for WPvP than a PvP hilt.

[Anishor]

WPVP = PVE Hilt with PVP Mods

WZs/Arenas = PVP Hilt with PVP Mods

PVE = PVE Hilt with PVE Mods.

 

 

There ya go.

[VincentBedok]

So first off, the PVE hilt is a major damage boost outside of Warzones. The data I've pulled so far from bolster is somewhat interesting & slightly "out of whack." To the point I am going to test a 192 Hilt just to see how the numbers are affected. I will update main post when I finish compiling the data. Currently it looks like the PVE & PVP hilts balance out to pretty much the same stats with minor variations. Thanks for the replies everyone

[L-RANDLE]

I'm pretty sure weapon damage is still bhhhroke.

 

That bolstered min/max weapon damage number is not correct, and hasn't been since bolsters inception. Otherwise, your tooltip wouldn't change, and it does. My crystal ball says full PvP weapon isn't BiS..

[teclado]

Bumping this because there was another thread asking this question and more people may want to see this.

 

Good stuff, VincentBedok

[-Damask-]

It's best to just stop trying to game the system and gear fully in PVP mods, as intended.

 

LOL This might be true if the devs had a clue as to how to develop a game properly. Countless times in the past we have figured out that due to a poorly designed system, the BiS gear was some crazy green craftable piece, or just going in naked.

 

But they must capitulate to a bunch of whiny baddies who cant be bothered to play a few days in crappy gear in order to get proper pvp gear- and if they get their asses kicked for those two or three days it takes to gear up, they will quit playing and move on to another baddie friendly game... so we get the ever-broken bolster system.

 

If only we could get a proper training dummy that allows us to set the stats to match a myriad of simulated players, and parse on that. But then again, f2p wouldnt know what to do with that, so it wont happen.