Underlurker 8M SM: Problems with DPS output: Advice please?

[Torvai]

For this fight it is easier if the entire ops group stays together, if you have melee dps everyone will have to stack up on the adds to share the aoe dmg, otherwise melee will get moved down.

 

You can't "share the aoe damage". Everyone gets hit by it similarly.

The reason melee get "mowed down" is because the adds have two melee attacks in addition to their aoe attack. If you have problems with melees eating to much damage have a tank taunt their add.

Also, dps have cooldowns, use them. When I'm in there as a guardian vigi dps(respecced tank) I cylce between FD and Enure. Our healers never have a problem with keeping me up this way, not even on HM.

[liftedplane]

Just because people are incompetent doesn't mean that they are right. Or do you believe everything someone you don't know tells you on the internet?

If so, you have to pay me all the money you have, because reasons:p

 

And btw, we did beat it on HM in nothing more than a mix of 186(NiM Gear) and 192, as a lot of others have. Gear just allows you to beat things even if you don't know how to play.

Isn't the entire idea of story mode to be able to do this in full non-augmented 186 gear and face roll through it.. that way EVERYONE pugs, people that don't play often, people that don't run raids have a chance to experience it.

 

just because you spend your time playing this game enough to know every single in and out doesn't mean every other player does, this fight is a story mode fight not hard mode, not NiM it's story mode.

 

what I'm trying to say is, story mode should be easier that way everyone, not just hur hur derp i'm 1337, people can run the content.

 

My team is well geared and we communicate well, we've been running raids together for years and this fight is just to difficult for what should be "story' mode.

 

that's not to say we don't have some problems. but come on... every other fight has been a cake walk compared to this.

Edited February 24, 2015 by liftedplane

[Torvai]

I'm sorry, i didn't mean to insult you. I was simply stating that it's perfectly doable with the recommended gear.

 

But I agree that UL is slightly overtuned in story mode.

[LukeTheGeek]

A common tactic used for SM is to have one of the tanks respec to dps. Have the respeccing tank stay on the boss and the other 4 dps kill the adds, make sure they all hit the same add

[Torvai]

A common tactic used for SM is to have one of the tanks respec to dps. Have the respeccing tank stay on the boss and the other 4 dps kill the adds, make sure they all hit the same add

 

5dps this fight, yes. But split dps up is better imo. Having 2 dps on the outer adds, while you stack the boss onto the middle one for the 5th dps to dotspread/aoe and switching one dps from each outer add on the boss once they are down, and one from each to the middle one works better in my experience.

[soowonlee]

Have the dps in your raid group do a 1.5 million health parse on the combat dummy. If they cannot sustain at least 3K dps over the entirety of the parse, then it is quite likely that they will not have the dps for Underlurker.

[JouerTue]

since i see the most various suggestion, we've a combat sent and a tactics VG going on the far add, tank 2 on mid add and rdps on nearest add, we all meet at mid add..also shield from VG on cross is priceless

[liftedplane]

I'm thinking our biggest problem is we are mDPS heavy and the lurkerlings definitely do more damage to mDPS over rDPS the cross works about half the time even with everyone in the correct locations... we've been using the sonic rebounder to help negate the damage... gonna see how many rDPS alts we have in the guild that are geared well enough.

[Memo-]

I'm thinking our biggest problem is we are mDPS heavy and the lurkerlings definitely do more damage to mDPS over rDPS the cross works about half the time even with everyone in the correct locations... we've been using the sonic rebounder to help negate the damage... gonna see how many rDPS alts we have in the guild that are geared well enough.

 

A Lurkerling only hits one player at a time with their melee attacks. Melee dps should always stack on the same add so that they don't take multiple Lurkerlings' damage.

[Snean]

BW must add beating dummy as a quest to join raid teams.

I once went to a group of randomly as tank

Underlurker, after the second try I moved to Sorc (1 tank+5dps+2 heal).

Parsec shows 4k DPS and we can not kill him because too low dps. 4 other dpsers can't do 9.1k dps ...

Only after I gave 4.4k we were able to kill him in enrage.

Something has to be done with teaching beginners.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Snean

[Kacynski]

The problem with Underlurker is not that people cannot do dps per se. I'm sure most people that do OP's at least semi - regular can parse 3.5k+ on the dummy. The problem with the Underlurker is to translate dummy dps into actual dps.

 

In my group for example the first wave of adds dies pretty quickly which means that our raw dps output is fine. Things get problematic when we need to run and hide behind the rocks and sort out the cross. This is the moment where dps needs to land on the boss, but most of the time it doesn't because peeps are occupied with sorting out which side of the cross they belong. Then its regrouping for adds, which again occupies people with movement instead of dps'ing.

 

So the problem (imho) is not the output of dps, it's getting to land that dps while moving and dealing with mechanics. We had around 10 pulls on that boss so far, that's probably not enough practice but I would also like to hear with what ways people came up to learn this fight.

 

If you have people that in general know how to play their class, how would you teach them the UL fight?

[Snean]

If you have people that in general know how to play their class, how would you teach them the UL fight?

I know that transfer dummy dps to boss not easy. My prev main was rerolled from heal to dps and had some problems with output.

But usually lose not much. 20-30% but not 50-60%. So ppl who done 4k+ on dummy will do 3k+ on bosses. Not less then 2k.

[Kacynski]

I know that transfer dummy dps to boss not easy. My prev main was rerolled from heal to dps and had some problems with output.

But usually lose not much. 20-30% but not 50-60%. So ppl who done 4k+ on dummy will do 3k+ on bosses. Not less then 2k.

 

I can do 4k consistently on the dummy now (1m), but only manage 2.5k on the lurker. I switched from tanking to dps and as you said it takes time to adopt. I am much more used to follow the fights mechanic than executing a stringent rotation or priority system. Holding aggro is no problem for me, because that's what I do for years. But now I struggle with the Underlurker fight - not with the mechanics of it - but with doing sufficient dps, which mine is not.

[Torvai]

I can do 4k consistently on the dummy now (1m), but only manage 2.5k on the lurker. I switched from tanking to dps and as you said it takes time to adopt. I am much more used to follow the fights mechanic than executing a stringent rotation or priority system. Holding aggro is no problem for me, because that's what I do for years. But now I struggle with the Underlurker fight - not with the mechanics of it - but with doing sufficient dps, which mine is not.

If you're talking about SM, 2.5k on Underlurker should be enough if you 5dps it and the other 4 dps do the same.

Other than that, as I said in your thread about dpsing in general, waste as less gcd's as possible, even while moving is key to good sustained dps in real fights.

[JamesMartinez]

I'm in a guild currently trying to do TOS SM right now, but we're hitting a roadblock on Underlurker. Specifically, the adds are difficult to kill before the Ragestorm mechanic forces us to hide and move, then the cross comes and DPS is further reduced. We can usually get two down before the Ragestorm starts. We're all decent players in 186-192/198 gear.

 

I understand that lots of people have completed this operation, so short of spending months getting all 8 of us to 198 gear, can anyone suggest strategies for maximising DPS? Specific classes that might be useful, or tricks that can help us squeeze more DPS out while running around for the mechanics?

 

Thanks.

 

This fight is a big DPS check. Have you yall done 1 tank 5 dps 2 healers instead of 2 tank? That is what my guild usually does. What we do is boss-->burn adds-->hide-->cross-->boss/adds-->repeat-->once UL is around 50% we burn the boss and ignore the adds.

[xZarquon]

Part of how to deal with underlurker is dependent on classes. If dps output is an issue, than it's most likely people doing things improperly for this fight (for example, not immediately swapping to adds when they spawn). For this fight, it's fairly difficult to beat beat the enrage if even a single person is slow on the uptake (For example, in a recent run i was >4700 dps on my powertech and the group still hit enrage...it happens...).

 

Some general tips for this fight (in no particular order):

 

1) AoE Dmg reduction-if you have a utility for it, take it-your healers will thank you.

 

2) 5 dps the fight-there's seriously no need for 2 tanks (if having difficulties with the dmg behind the boss, have a sniper or operative evasion the cross damage) and 5 dps makes killing adds as well as beating enrage far easier.

 

3) Sonic rebounder-if you have powertechs, this can save your hide, use it at every cross (note: sometimes this won't keep people from dying, but rarely will a cross outright kill players if they're at full health.)

 

4) if you have a good defensive cooldown like Entrench or energy shield up you can stay out from behind the rocks to DPS the boss during rage storm. Note: this is only good for story mode.

 

5) Before hiding behind a rock, apply dots, fire-and-forget AoE's, etc.-This can greatly improve your time to kill for this boss. I mostly play engineering sniper and always try to apply both of my dots, and plasma probe (possibly explosive probe or Orbital strike if i hadn't just used them) to be the boss before hiding...getting the adds down quickly greatly helps with this (other examples include AP-Powertechs...apply your bleed, use magnetic blast, rail shot, TD, and/or Electro dart while running to the rock or before hiding) to keep the bleed applied while hiding). These sort of tricks can maintain some dps 1-2k depending on the class while hiding and positioning for the cross.

 

6) Stack the boss on one of the adds-there are many ways to handle the adds, but at least keep the boss on one so that AoE's, dotspread, etc can provide your group with more passive uptime on the boss. Assuming the tank has strong aggro on the boss, can also taunt the add to give mele dps a breather from the adds mele attacks.

 

7) If AoE'ing the adds with skills like Lightning storm, orbital strike, or suppressive fire, the 2 adds closest to the the door are easier to hit...don't know why, but the middle one and far one have a tendency to miss one (or both) targets if AoE is placed not JUST right.

 

8) if you have a powertech tank, Oil slick is great for ignoring rage storm

 

9) Once the boss gets low, group up away from the adds and burn the boss to zero. (if by chance you get a collapse, this is a great time for defensive cds/oil slick, sniper shield, etc to avoid having to hide.) If you get a cross, DO NOT ignore it, complete it as usual.

 

10) Anything to avoid the knockback at the end of rage storm

 

11) stack up on the same rock whenever possible...keeps the boss from moving/jumping away after rage storm which allows positioning for the cross to be that much easier, increasing dps uptime.

 

12) apply anything you can on the move while positioning for the cross.

 

I'm sure there are plenty more pieces of advice, but this list should at least get you started. Good luck!

Edited March 2, 2015 by xZarquon

[JamesMartinez]

The fight is pretty much bugged. It is frankly doing HM stuff in SM. Even fully augged and knowing your class well, it is a pain of a fight. This boss is the reason I have never completed Temple, on any toon.

 

not really bugged. Only bug that happens is when the cross appears different places for different players. Have the tank stay still before the cross comes up and that should solve that though.

[Snean]

I can do 4k consistently on the dummy now (1m), but only manage 2.5k on the lurker. I switched from tanking to dps and as you said it takes time to adopt. I am much more used to follow the fights mechanic than executing a stringent rotation or priority system. Holding aggro is no problem for me, because that's what I do for years. But now I struggle with the Underlurker fight - not with the mechanics of it - but with doing sufficient dps, which mine is not.

Good solution - place you on boss all time.

UL boss mechanic not like mdd. They need more skill to make same dps that rdd do.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Snean

[Snean]

not really bugged. Only bug that happens is when the cross appears different places for different players. Have the tank stay still before the cross comes up and that should solve that though.

It still bugged.

MT can get 44k hit in green cross.

No one can get any damage in red-yellow cross.

[Warhams]

Just like to add, the damage is sometimes random, just two days ago I had a DPS assassin who was in the fake tank position take a 40k hit. Killed him in one shot. Same raid on another attempt, I had DPS on one of the hands take a 40k hit. Also killed him outright, theres no rhyme or reason to this damn fight.

 

Just to Add, we used the PT cheese tactic on another attempt, know whats funny? 2 DPS took 15k-20 hits each while everyone else took do damage (other than maintank PT). Everyone was stacked under the boss when sonic rebounder was activated. Happened thrice.

 

Do it properly, cross bugs and you all take damage, do it the 'unfair' way, bioware is still out to get you

[youngones]

I agree that this boss is overtuned for SM. I think the health on the adds and boss should be dropped by about 10-15%.

 

I say this as a person who has downed the boss on HM (I play tanks only). SM is supposed to be for casual players/light raiders. HM and NIM is for the more hardcore among the population. Saying that there isn't an issue here is unfair to those who raid SM.

 

I personally feel there is an issue with a boss if the usual team paradigm of 2 tank, 4 DPS and 2 healers must be changed in SM. As I see it, if that is how the group finder sorts it, then that is how these fights are designed/intended. If it is so difficult for groups running with 5 DPS to kill this boss on SM (something I have witnessed doing gearing runs with pugs), can we not agree something other than 'people need to learn to play' is an issue here? Such a high DPS check for casuals/light-raiders makes it virtually impossible to do this boss with 4 DPS for these groups.

 

I say all this only for SM. HM and NIM should be tougher and follow this new tougher design philosophy, but not SM.

 

----------------------------------------

 

In regards to advice, I can offer little more than what has been said here already. In its current state, running with 5 DPS should help, as will sonic rebounder (from PT) for the cross. Your DPS need to optimise their DPS output (i.e not wasting big hitting abilities as an add is about to die).

 

You should be placing the boss on an add for extra AOE dps, and try spliting the DPS on the adds. For example, if you hold the boss on the 'middle' add, have everyone stack on top of it (for AOE heals). The damage from the add divides over everyone it hits (I think, or thats what I was told, so grouping shouldn't be an issue).

 

You then have two DPS attack the add to the left, another two DPS attack the add to the right, while the 5th DPS takes care of the add under the boss, with the other 4 throwing an AOE ability or two on the middle one and the boss. Once their add is dead, the DPS move to the boss.

 

Doing it this way, you can find out where your DPS problem is as it will reveal a weak DPS member, especially if there is constantly one add that isn't killed. Further into the fight, the tank can also help out on the middle add, as threat on the boss will be too high for anyone to pull of them.

 

We use the above tactic on HM, there is no reason it shouldn't work on SM.

[Deluxe_]

Best way to pass Underlurker:

 

step 1: Get 5 VG DPS, a VG Tank, and 2 Healers of whatever you want

step 2: Get all VG DPS to spec Tactics, and all VGs to have Reflective Armor and Electro Shield. Bonus points for having both healers Commandos with Reflexive Shield/Electro Shield utilities as part of their kit.

step 3: Stand within 10m of an add at all times. Use electro shield off cooldown if the adds are up.

step 4: Spam sonic rebounder at cross phase. Deliberately fail. End result, many reflected damage.

Step 5: WIN!

 

+1 for awesomeness.

[Loc_n_lol]

I thought the cross was counting as melee damage (defensible) ? How can sonic rebounder work on that ?

[Foxpthree]

So if you number adds as 1 by the door, 2 in middle, 3 away from the entrance you can try to stick boss between adds 2 & 3 and have your aoe toons with 8m range (sorc/sages, and slingers/snipers) drop their 8m aoe. Have single target dps start on add 1 and move their way around. If you have those classes can certainly help as long as they can place their aoe correctly to hit 3 targets.

[Hatstandard]

problems with SM dps checks

 

. We're all decent players in 186-192/198 gear.

 

No you're not. You guys probably have a few average players and mostly really bad players. The first part of improving is recognizing the actual score. And the actual score is that your ops team has terrible dps players right now.

 

They can improve but the first part is for them to stop calling themselves decent. They are not even basically competent players currently.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Hatstandard