Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Ok, the first release of the slot machine made no sense, it paid out way too much. Then it was nerfed into nothingness. It drops rep which is nice, but there is no point to playing beyond that. --- Solution? Make it work just like Vegas slots do, which on average pay back 95% of what is put into them, leaving 5% for the house. This works out just like the GTN's 6% commission, it acts as a mild and slow credit sink to the game while offering the chance to win fun prizes. Prizes? Sure, you have rep tokens and those have a known vendor sell value, those can be the cheap prizes. You can also have Jawa scrap of all three colors drop (more green, less blue, even less purple). These also have a value and should "cost" a proper amount of credits to obtain. Then there are the nicer prizes. The walker can be the jackpot, but it needs to be Bind on Equip so it can be sold on the GTN, this provides a return on investment and a reason to play the machine after you win one for yourself. There need to be other prizes like strong hold decos and perhaps items like armor and weapons that drop as well, all BoE. There needs to be a "value" for these items assigned so that it costs a reasonable number of credits to obtain them, thus keeping it a credit sink. A slot machine in Vegas pays out a lot of little wins to keep people playing, then every so often pays out a big win to make it fun. --- The goal is to make the slot machine a losing proposition for bots and macros that just click it forever, but to make it fun and worth trying while forming a raid group or PvP/GSF/GF queues to pop. So I might stand there with a single stack of 99 chips, just playing in between ops or queue pops, but it would ultimately be a money loser to just leave a bot/macro playing 24/7, just like it would be in Vegas. At a 95% payback rate, I know that in the long run it isn't a money maker, but I don't mind it being a mild credit sink if it is a fun way to pass 20 minutes between events and I have the chance for prizes. --- Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malderak Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Thoughts? They said the changes are final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 They said the changes are final. And... they can't change their minds... because? I think I posted a reasonable compromise between the concerns of the economy and the concerns of the player base. Clearly the nerf was a kneejerk reaction. Somewhere in the middle is a happy place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malderak Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 And... they can't change their minds... because? Because at this point if they change anything they'll only encourage people like you to stomp feet and cry as loud as they can on the forums anytime there's something utterly unimportant and trivial you want changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Because at this point if they change anything they'll only encourage people like you to stomp feet and cry as loud as they can on the forums anytime there's something utterly unimportant and trivial you want changed. I would suggest that a real money item purchase that was completely changed in function a week after purchase is not "utterly unimportant and trivial". YOU might think so, and that's fine... clearly a lot of people here don't agree... Bioware messed up with the first version of the slot machine, then messed up by going completely overboard in the other direction. Now it is time to find a happy middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerba Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) The problem is that you can't give a price tag to the Jawa Junk materials. Those materials were never intended to be the selling point of the slot machines, the reputation items were. AKA the reputation items are meant to be consumed. It was never intended that you'd continue playing after reaching max rep and sell the additional reputation items for credits. Therefore, I don't see them changing the droprates now, since they are working exactly as it was intended. If they'd follow through with your suggestion, they'd need to set a price for artifact materials, and that would interfere with the gathering missions. For example, currently, you can get a purple mat via missions for ~4k credits investment, and sell it on the GTN for 25k. Prices fluctuate of course, so they will be different depending on server and time. It is impossible to calculate a guaranteed 95% payback for the machine. The payback always varies depending on the demand and availabilitiy of the materials. Also, it does not matter how big the payback is - no matter if it is 50%, 75%, 95% or 99%. If there is nothing good you can win from it, you are losing credits by playing there. Just to see some flashing lights is not enough motivation to play on the slots. Therefore, the machines are fine to get the reputation to the limit and stop playing then. In their current form, they do exactly that, and offer a rare mount for the few lucky ones. Edited January 25, 2015 by Jerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citruzz Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I would suggest that a real money item purchase that was completely changed in function a week after purchase is not "utterly unimportant and trivial". YOU might think so, and that's fine... clearly a lot of people here don't agree... Bioware messed up with the first version of the slot machine, then messed up by going completely overboard in the other direction. Now it is time to find a happy middle ground. the machine is a deco like any other deco, that costs some millions of credits or cc. nothing special, nothing worth to invest real money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 the machine is a deco like any other deco, that costs some millions of credits or cc. nothing special, nothing worth to invest real money. And had it been released that way, then fine... If that is the path going forward, then a refund of all CC used to buy the packs in the first week is due... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 The problem is that you can't give a price tag to the Jawa Junk materials. Sure you can, it is based on the cost of obtaining purples via the crew missions. If the crew missions cost, on average, 6K per purple mat to obtain, then the slot machine's value could be set to 25% higher than this, or 8k per JJ. It was never intended that you'd continue playing after reaching max rep and sell the additional reputation items for credits. Um, Eric's posts dispute that point, and he SURE never actually said what you're suggesting the point was. I think you're reading into it what you think the machine is meant for. Therefore, I don't see them changing the droprates now, since they are working exactly as it was intended. Then the posts will continue for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokimogor Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 And had it been released that way, then fine... If that is the path going forward, then a refund of all CC used to buy the packs in the first week is due... Why, there is no moral or legal reason to do so. This wasn't a switch and bait. The slot machines were not directly advertised as being a super good deal. There is no legal contract saying that you should be refunded any time you dont like a change, there's folks there who would try your own argument on marauder play time and such like. Feel free to throw more threads out about as I'm sure you will. But there is no legal and no moral reason to refund the coins. The moral imperative here is for all the greedy folks who were trying to get a cash machine and then got ticked when it go turned off to apologize for all the whining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citruzz Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The first state of the machines was never expected by anyone, even the buyers from the first packages. So there was a risk around, that this machines where worthless since beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomdiddy Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Because at this point if they change anything they'll only encourage people like you to stomp feet and cry as loud as they can on the forums anytime there's something utterly unimportant and trivial you want changed. Like the way they changed the slot machine because of the complaining it was ruining the economy? Like the great Spymaster/Phantom etc. armor debacle that because of complaints they introduced "classic" versions of. There is precedent. One could argue that the whole point of the forums is for the developers to get feedback on the game from players and you know listen to them and make changes accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Thoughts? 95% payback can only be ensured by rewards that have a fixed value compared to the input (Credits). So the reason why your idea is wrong is because you want a fixed percentage on the payback by rewarding prices that don't actually have a fixed value because their value depends on the market. That is completely contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerba Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Sure you can, it is based on the cost of obtaining purples via the crew missions. If the crew missions cost, on average, 6K per purple mat to obtain, then the slot machine's value could be set to 25% higher than this, or 8k per JJ. Well, the thing, the players who run the missions for the purple mats are not that generous, they'll sell the materials for much higher than a 25% increase. At least on my server, the prices are currently 6x the cost, and they have been as high as 15x when 3.0 came out. I can agree with your suggestion provided that they remove the Jawa Junk and the certificates from the payout, so that you can only win reputation trophies and a BoP mount. Then, they would be able to calculate the casino chip prices based on the reputation items. E.g. they could make it that playing for an hour costs 100k credits, but you get 90k credits back. That would mean that you don't realize you are losing credits, and people could still get the reputation. The goal is to make the slot machine a losing proposition for bots and macros that just click it forever, but to make it fun and worth trying while forming a raid group or PvP/GSF/GF queues to pop. Unfortunately, I don't see how this is possible. No matter how they change the droprates, as long as there is something to win, players will macro it. Even if it means spending 5 million credits for a mount, players will macro it. Edited May 11, 2015 by Jerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malderak Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Like the way they changed the slot machine because of the complaining it was ruining the economy? Like the great Spymaster/Phantom etc. armor debacle that because of complaints they introduced "classic" versions of. There is precedent. One could argue that the whole point of the forums is for the developers to get feedback on the game from players and you know listen to them and make changes accordingly. Except all those times they never said "we made final changes and have no plans to alter them" They did now. Now there's no turning back, or the above will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Why, there is no moral or legal reason to do so. This wasn't a switch and bait. The slot machines were not directly advertised as being a super good deal. There is no legal contract saying that you should be refunded any time you dont like a change, there's folks there who would try your own argument on marauder play time and such like. Feel free to throw more threads out about as I'm sure you will. But there is no legal and no moral reason to refund the coins. The moral imperative here is for all the greedy folks who were trying to get a cash machine and then got ticked when it go turned off to apologize for all the whining I simply disagree with your assessment that there is no moral reason to do so. Legally you might be in the right, I am not a lawyer and I have no plans to sue anyone, so the legal issues are moot. Morally and ethically, I feel they have an obligation to do so. Clearly a number of other people do as well based on many other posts. You are free to disagree of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 95% payback can only be ensured by rewards that have a fixed value compared to the input (Credits). So the reason why your idea is wrong is because you want a fixed percentage on the payback by rewarding prices that don't actually have a fixed value because their value depends on the market. That is completely contradictory. That is a good point... While I would let the market decide the value, you could assign "values" to prizes the same way contests do today. For example, a plant deco could be "worth" 50k, the walker mount could be "worth" 5m and so on. What they actually sell for will vary, but the estimated value would give people an idea of what cost to expect to spend to get them, with RNG making it higher or lower. In Vegas, you can win a new car from a slot machine, that car has an estimated value, what you do with the car when you win it is up to you. Keep it, sell it, your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minigal Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Hi. Heat Wave, I agree with your OP except for one thing. Just take the crafting materials OUT as prizes. That would take out a whole lot of problems for the slot machine. Otherwise, I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Hi. Heat Wave, I agree with your OP except for one thing. Just take the crafting materials OUT as prizes. That would take out a whole lot of problems for the slot machine. Otherwise, I agree with you. I do understand that concern... The only argument for leaving them in is they have an ongoing use. If all that it drops beyond rep tokens is decos, even if you can sell them, at some point the market will get flooded with them. You need something consumable to drop. The irony is that stims and medpacks strike me as something useful, but the crafters would have a fit with that. I'm not suggesting there needs to be a lot of them, their value can be set higher than crew missions, making crew missions still by far the cheapest way to get them. I also would stack it far more towards the green and blues and make the purples more rare. --- Do you have any suggestions beyond decos that the machine can drop that would be worth playing for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 And... they can't change their minds... because? I think I posted a reasonable compromise between the concerns of the economy and the concerns of the player base. Clearly the nerf was a kneejerk reaction. Somewhere in the middle is a happy place. I'm waiting for week to start and see if there are any developer posts, before using up my surplus tokens. hoping they change their minds at least partially. if they don't.... well... I'll cross that bridge when we'll get to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta_V Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I do understand that concern... The only argument for leaving them in is they have an ongoing use. If all that it drops beyond rep tokens is decos, even if you can sell them, at some point the market will get flooded with them. You need something consumable to drop. The irony is that stims and medpacks strike me as something useful, but the crafters would have a fit with that. I'm not suggesting there needs to be a lot of them, their value can be set higher than crew missions, making crew missions still by far the cheapest way to get them. I also would stack it far more towards the green and blues and make the purples more rare. --- Do you have any suggestions beyond decos that the machine can drop that would be worth playing for? I've suggested adding the rare/desirable items from that particular shipment of packs as ultra-rare drops, as long as they are BoP. That would give a larger pool of "jackpot" style prizes, and you could have higher odds of winning *a* jackpot. Instead of just the 1/100,000 or whatever chance of winning the mount, you could have multiple items with drop rates of 1/1,000 or 1/10,000, etc. This pack shipment might not be the best example, since it wasn't that great as far as rare armor sets and mounts, but you could include things like the white-black crystals, the luxury skiffs, and the pocket sarlacc as "jackpots". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm waiting for week to start and see if there are any developer posts, before using up my surplus tokens. hoping they change their minds at least partially. if they don't.... well... I'll cross that bridge when we'll get to it. I'm hoping we see something regarding all this, this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 That is a good point... While I would let the market decide the value, you could assign "values" to prizes the same way contests do today. For example, a plant deco could be "worth" 50k, the walker mount could be "worth" 5m and so on. What they actually sell for will vary, but the estimated value would give people an idea of what cost to expect to spend to get them, with RNG making it higher or lower. In Vegas, you can win a new car from a slot machine, that car has an estimated value, what you do with the car when you win it is up to you. Keep it, sell it, your choice. You could argue that certain very rare drops like a mount (your car) could be made sellable/tradeable. As long as it's rare enough it wouldn't affect other elements negatively. Another thing could be an armour set that is very rare. You'd have to collect the pieces but it would be very rare but as it's tradeable in this scenario players could help each other...at a price. Of course there is the possibility that people might complain about not being able to get it if lots of people think it's really cool. So you have to be careful with this sort of thing. However with items like crafting materials I would not want them as rewards for slot machines. Materials affect not only trade but crafting, conquest and companion affection for example (why bother raising affection if you can get mats via a slot machine). So I would prefer that materials are kept out of it or are also extremely rare rewards. That's what is the case now and as far as materials are concerned I find that at least a good decision. The only reasonable and practical solution for materials is improving crew skill missions. Not bringing materials in via other means in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Except all those times they never said "we made final changes and have no plans to alter them" They did now. Now there's no turning back, or the above will happen. But they never actually said that.. One person who went to the cantina tour said they said that. In fact even if they really did say that, the fact that it was not in any official capacity means they can come out and say, well we never really meant it that way, we meant it wasn't going back to the way it was originally but we are going to increase the payout. And then do just that. Until you actually see an official announcement on this forum to that effect, they never actually said they aren't going to change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longmaverick Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Ok, the first release of the slot machine made no sense, it paid out way too much. Then it was nerfed into nothingness. It drops rep which is nice, but there is no point to playing beyond that. --- Solution? Make it work just like Vegas slots do, which on average pay back 95% of what is put into them, leaving 5% for the house. This works out just like the GTN's 6% commission, it acts as a mild and slow credit sink to the game while offering the chance to win fun prizes. Prizes? Sure, you have rep tokens and those have a known vendor sell value, those can be the cheap prizes. You can also have Jawa scrap of all three colors drop (more green, less blue, even less purple). These also have a value and should "cost" a proper amount of credits to obtain. Then there are the nicer prizes. The walker can be the jackpot, but it needs to be Bind on Equip so it can be sold on the GTN, this provides a return on investment and a reason to play the machine after you win one for yourself. There need to be other prizes like strong hold decos and perhaps items like armor and weapons that drop as well, all BoE. There needs to be a "value" for these items assigned so that it costs a reasonable number of credits to obtain them, thus keeping it a credit sink. A slot machine in Vegas pays out a lot of little wins to keep people playing, then every so often pays out a big win to make it fun. --- The goal is to make the slot machine a losing proposition for bots and macros that just click it forever, but to make it fun and worth trying while forming a raid group or PvP/GSF/GF queues to pop. So I might stand there with a single stack of 99 chips, just playing in between ops or queue pops, but it would ultimately be a money loser to just leave a bot/macro playing 24/7, just like it would be in Vegas. At a 95% payback rate, I know that in the long run it isn't a money maker, but I don't mind it being a mild credit sink if it is a fun way to pass 20 minutes between events and I have the chance for prizes. --- Thoughts? The way the slot machine is now, is perfect. Doesn't need to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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